View Full Version : What is the DEAL with no employees?
iris lilies
9-12-21, 6:10pm
I’m not going to read about it. I’m gonna let you all tell me what is going on in our United States of America where the unemployment rate is very low apparently. No one can hire. Where are all the employees.
It is scary to think that even *I* could go out and get a job today.
When I retired in 2015 a couple cohorts my age suggested ways I could work part time and I said “oh my God who would hire me? *I* wouldn’t even hire me!. “ Well, those days are over and even I would hire me. And that is a scary thought.
iris lilies
9-12-21, 6:11pm
We are seeing reduced hours in restaurants around here, and one long-term stalwart place closed because they could not get employees anymore.
Where are all the employees.
Most are home. A few are working off the books.
People are also calling in more because what are you going to do? Fire me for poor attendance? You won't find anyone to replace me. We have one guy who since June when schedules were published we are all supposed to follow has yet to follow his a single week. He has blown through all his time off including days supposed to be for covid but he doesn't care if he doesn't get paid. He lets his GF support him.
And in my state more are also out due to new time off benefits - disability that pays out at a higher rate so it is more tempting to take, paid parental leave, paid leave to care for a sick family member, etc.
Teacher Terry
9-12-21, 8:59pm
I read on Nextdoor that people aren’t letting their high school kids work because of the virus. Unemployment ended here a week ago.
I see lots of teens working in my area but some older people are retiring earlier than they planned to. This may be due to covid but also due to a strong stock market under Biden.
There are all kinds of signs in grocery stores, restaurants and bars asking for patience with regard to slow service because they are short-staffed. Just today, I was in Burlington's best food co-op market, and the buffet table had a sign apologizing if all the usual choices aren't there, and then they asked for people who liked to cook to please apply.
Fact is, people who make low wages in restaurants and food establishments are still getting stimulus unemployment. There is no incentive to trade in the same income they're getting for no work that they would for working grueling hours on their feet.
This should change once federal and State unemployment ends.
A Dunkin Donuts here had to close temporarily due to no workers. It is kind of a mystery how so many people who aren't working are getting by financially.
I can shop at three grocery stores depending on where other errands take me and what groceries I need or want. Last few times all three have had help wanted signs out and the Whole Foods selves were in disarray and poor inventory, which is unusual for them. At one time the clerks at WF have told me that it was a good place to work with good benefits. And all of the fast food joints I've paid attention to have had help wanted signs. I've been told that a lot of young people are moving out of town or state because housing prices have gotten so high it's not possible to afford basic housing on a lot of entry level type professional jobs, not to mention the service industry.
Mostly just anecdotal stories. Probably some truth to it all, but certainly a disconnect of higher unemployment with jobs aplenty.
ToomuchStuff
9-12-21, 10:56pm
Here, several chain restaurants are drive through only. Hours on lots of places are reduced as well as restricted seating. Then, one of the area's largest suppliers, have been short handed, as well as their suppliers. Reduced inventory, substitutions (if they have them), delayed delivery (one restaurant I know is/was averaging two days after their delivery date), limiting stock and requiring pickup, to name a few things. Then they cut 30% of their customer base, with no notice (another restaurant I know, had turned in their weekly order, only to get it nullified 15 minutes later).
I have been told it made national news, but I haven't seen the news. Sysco, cut the local schools from being supplied. The schools can't just go get 15K pounds of chicken for district wide, but they are I have been told, shopping at those warehouse stores, as well as a local supplier, that is being swarmed with new customers.
That doesn't even cover the kid situation. Kids that don't care about driving (do so much with their phones), so much more other activities, etc. etc. etc.
Where I live, hiring is now very very difficult for any low->medium paid jobs, because there is now basically no housing available at a price people in that earning range can afford.
The Pandemic caused many of the homes that were available for rental to come off the market, for several reasons. And purchase prices for homes is beyond unaffordable.
It is kind of a mystery how so many people who aren't working are getting by financially.
Even as extra unemployment ends, some were earning more than when working, worked off the books, got stimulus payments, and skipped out on their rent due to the eviction moratorium. So they could pile up money in savings.
I also have friends whose adult children boomeranged home.
ApatheticNoMore
9-13-21, 2:17am
some of them died.
but was the death toll so massive as to have that effect? Well it wasn't small, but realistically in aggregate likely no, but the job market isn't some aggregate. And low wage industries, healthcare etc. had much higher death tolls than some overall average, so maybe. Some may be too disabled by long covid to work too.
I can shop at three grocery stores depending on where other errands take me and what groceries I need or want. Last few times all three have had help wanted signs out and the Whole Foods selves were in disarray and poor inventory, which is unusual for them.
that's amazon, I noticed that would happen as soon as it was bought by amazon. I swear this predates the pandemic.
flowerseverywhere
9-13-21, 4:47am
What I see around me is many retirees who worked part time quit and do not want to go back. It is extremely difficult to explain the help wanted signs here when Florida refused the enhanced unemployment a while ago and state unemployment is extremely difficult to get. The website was a nightmare and those that could get it the max is about $275 a week. It is a short term benefit. We have no expanded Medicaid. We are as far from a nanny state everyone complains about as can be yet here we are.
It is kind of a mystery how so many people who aren't working are getting by financially.
The people who have these low-wage jobs (Dunkin Donuts for example) aren't typically the people who can afford a lot of stuff anyway.
My son, for example, works in the restaurant industry. During the 1st round of stimulus when restaurants were shut down, he was getting $632 a week between State and Fed unemployment. That's $2400+/mo. His apartment is $900, he has no car, and no credit cards, no cable TV, no pets. For him, that $2400 was guaranteed income (whereas living via tips and available shifts is not). He actually SAVED money and went to Nashville to do music gigs.
I imagine people for who get by in low wage jobs, the gap between needs and income during the pandemic was not that wide.
My son, for example, works in the restaurant industry. During the 1st round of stimulus when restaurants were shut down, he was getting $632 a week between State and Fed unemployment. That's $2400+/mo. His apartment is $900, he has no car, and no credit cards, no cable TV, no pets. For him, that $2400 was guaranteed income (whereas living via tips and available shifts is not). He actually SAVED money and went to Nashville to do music gigs.
I have been curious what all the stimulus money would add up to. The web says that the average cost of a studio apartment in Denver is $1600/mo and a one bedroom is $1800. Maybe it's less in the outliers areas and front range smaller cities. That would burn up a lot of that $2400 here, but maybe young people have ways of cutting corners.
iris lilies
9-13-21, 9:58am
What I see around me is many retirees who worked part time quit and do not want to go back. It is extremely difficult to explain the help wanted signs here when Florida refused the enhanced unemployment a while ago and state unemployment is extremely difficult to get. The website was a nightmare and those that could get it the max is about $275 a week. It is a short term benefit. We have no expanded Medicaid. We are as far from a nanny state everyone complains about as can be yet here we are.
That is an interesting analysis of Florida, thank you.
catherine
9-13-21, 10:07am
I have been curious what all the stimulus money would add up to. The web says that the average cost of a studio apartment in Denver is $1600/mo and a one bedroom is $1800. Maybe it's less in the outliers areas and front range smaller cities. That would burn up a lot of that $2400 here, but maybe young people have ways of cutting corners.
I don't know much about it, but I know during Phase I of the stimulus there were rent-relief programs for landlords and tenants, but I don't know how widely used they were. Also, up here in VT, the restaurant industry (not the government, but independent hospitality associations) offered grants to service workers. My son applied and got a couple of them--I think they amounted to about $1500 in total.
Are the big companies like Amazon and Walmart who are supposedly upping various benefits like college tuition also having problems hiring? It could be possible that some amount of low wage earners are taking those jobs and smaller places simply aren’t able/willing to provide anything to compete with that?
What was the effect of the Black Plague on the labor market and economic system in Europe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng
Here are a couple of answers (various sources easily obtainable within 5 minutes on Google, so I can't attest to validity. I love the reference to Monty Python (and as I referenced earlier, I tend to love silly humor i.e. Mad Magazine and Monty Python) but this is a little more direct for those who are looking for the bottom line:
The economy underwent abrupt and extreme inflation. Since it was so difficult (and dangerous) to procure goods through trade and to produce them, the prices of both goods produced locally and those imported from afar skyrocketed. ... In general, wages outpaced prices and the standard of living was subsequently raised.
What impact did the Black Plague have on the rise of mercantilism? After the Black Plague, the workers who had survived began to demand better conditions and higher wages.
While the Black Death resulted in short term economic damage, the longer-term consequences were less obvious. Before the plague erupted, several centuries of population growth had produced a labour surplus, which was abruptly replaced with a labour shortage when many serfs and free peasants died. Historians have argued that this labour shortage allowed those peasants that survived the pandemic to demand better pay or to seek employment elsewhere. Despite government resistance, serfdom and the feudal system itself were ultimately eroded.
At the same time, the plague brought benefits as well: modern labor movements, improvements in medicine and a new approach to life. Indeed, much of the Italian Renaissance—even Shakespeare's drama to some extent—is an aftershock of the Black Death.
Interesting! I'd love to hear more about this.
"No mud, no lotus"
thanks Catherine. Does sound a lot like today. Loads of low paid workers in businesses that only survive on low paid workers. Sudden crisis that removes a lot from the pool (parents of kids, deceased, retired or otherwise no longer want part time work, got a new job or started a business, etc.) Better pay and quality of life benefits wanted by those remaining. The knights complaining that the serfs will no longer work for starvation wages.
Results: Business like fast food will have to restructure their business model. Restaurants will have to be better run and many will cease to exist. New owner small! businesses may be created based on family and a small number of employees. Automation will be sped up, example self serve models.
I'm suspecting some jobs just won't be coming back.
I recently was on a long road trip through the American Southwest. Many of the fast food places (esp. McDonalds) seemed to have completely revamped their operations to require very very few employees, and very little customer interaction. Service was swift and efficient, the places were clean, and they all looked closed even when open, since nobody was really there, compared to The Old Days.
My eye doc is serving more patients than pre-pandemic, with fewer staff, and providing a higher quality of service, as recent events forced him to redesign his operations. I doubt he'll go back to The Old Way, and I wouldn't want him to. Of course, the people he laid off might feel differently. The dentist here has similarly improved his operation.
The pandemic might have accelerated the airport service model where iPads replace servers. Servers come by just to provide very basic human interaction. They don't take orders.
But who know what this will lead to? I'd love to imagine that there would be more business owners like this one (https://scoop.upworthy.com/business-owners-rake-money-paying-employees-starvation-wages-labor-exploitation?fbclid=IwAR0YN4iqDe7nFaYqgoT1qgqKsT6-D35YL_9W1mfoXk3mfYMBbIZzVPO-PSI):
Business models change. Until piggly wiggly came along grocery stores weren’t self serve. Before them a clerk collected your goods for you. And technology advances too. When was the last time any of us spoke to an operator to place a phone call. That used to be standard. Or told the elevator operator what floor we wanted. Or had someone else pump our gas (outside of Oregon and NJ)?
In the past the workers who did those jobs found other jobs. Will that be the case now? Or will we ultimately need some sort of UBI? Or will we see a reduction in ‘normal’ work hours so that there are more of the remaining jobs to go around. My crystal ball is clouded with cataracts so I won’t begin to guess where things will be 10,25, 50 years from now. But I am willing to bet that the adoption of self checkout at grocery and other stores, the adoption of self order platforms at fast food places, etc will continue and possibly accelerate due to the current labor situation. And perhaps even the adoption of robots that can throw together a Big Mac. I imagine it would take far less workers at a McDonald’s if all they had to do was keep the bins of ingredients full and could leave the actual food prep to a machine. Which is yet another area that has a history of being technologized. Automatic shake machines were not always a thing. Someone used to have to scoop the ice cream, add chocolate syrup and milk and put it on a blender. Now someone just dumps a big bag of shake mix into the top of a machine and can then pour dozens of shakes just by pulling a handle for five seconds. But like automated phone systems most of us consider that technology ‘normal’ since it has been around for decades.
rosarugosa
9-14-21, 6:18am
Catherine: I think you meant to insert a link?
Catherine: I think you meant to insert a link?
The link works on my end! It's hyperlinked to "this one" in the sentence.
But here it is again: https://scoop.upworthy.com/business-owners-rake-money-paying-employees-starvation-wages-labor-exploitation?fbclid=IwAR0YN4iqDe7nFaYqgoT1qgqKsT6-D35YL_9W1mfoXk3mfYMBbIZzVPO-PSI
Business models change. Until piggly wiggly came along grocery stores weren’t self serve. Before them a clerk collected your goods for you. And technology advances too. When was the last time any of us spoke to an operator to place a phone call. That used to be standard. Or told the elevator operator what floor we wanted. Or had someone else pump our gas (outside of Oregon and NJ)?
In the past the workers who did those jobs found other jobs. Will that be the case now? Or will we ultimately need some sort of UBI? Or will we see a reduction in ‘normal’ work hours so that there are more of the remaining jobs to go around. My crystal ball is clouded with cataracts so I won’t begin to guess where things will be 10,25, 50 years from now. But I am willing to bet that the adoption of self checkout at grocery and other stores, the adoption of self order platforms at fast food places, etc will continue and possibly accelerate due to the current labor situation. And perhaps even the adoption of robots that can throw together a Big Mac. I imagine it would take far less workers at a McDonald’s if all they had to do was keep the bins of ingredients full and could leave the actual food prep to a machine. Which is yet another area that has a history of being technologized. Automatic shake machines were not always a thing. Someone used to have to scoop the ice cream, add chocolate syrup and milk and put it on a blender. Now someone just dumps a big bag of shake mix into the top of a machine and can then pour dozens of shakes just by pulling a handle for five seconds. But like automated phone systems most of us consider that technology ‘normal’ since it has been around for decades.
Plus, if you complain about the service, the robots won’t spit in your food.
Teacher Terry
9-14-21, 11:32am
As you scroll down you will see Dan Price’s story who did this 6 years ago with a much bigger company. The company has done very well and the employees all shared in it’s success.
My previous company was in the process of moving to a remote work model before the pandemic, and had already sold off several expensive buildings on its campus for ~$100 million. Then it learned so much about how to restructure its business that it recently sold off the remaining Silicon Valley campus, about 21 acres, for $365 million, and won't be returning to the previous model.
https://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SJM-L-NETAPP-x-01.jpg?w=1020
It has moved the remaining headquarters operation into a lovely mixed-use development in downtown San Jose - residential, retail, restaurant, hotel, and the business:
https://blocksandfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/700-Santana-Row.jpg
catherine
9-14-21, 12:39pm
As you scroll down you will see Dan Price’s story who did this 6 years ago with a much bigger company. The company has done very well and the employees all shared in it’s success.
Thank you for reminding me! I knew about him but I had forgotten his name.
Went to my local oil change shop yesterday to have the oil changed in my truck. When I arrived there were three cars backed up outside each bay waiting their turn so I decided to leave and come back today in hopes they'd be less busy. Went back today and they were closed with a note on each door stating they were only open every other day due to staff shortages. Apparently they no longer have enough staff to keep each location open so they're moving staff from one location to another each day.
The governor in my state has National Guard troops driving school buses because there is a driver shortage. When schools were shut down many drivers got jobs elsewhere.
rosarugosa
9-14-21, 8:51pm
The link works on my end! It's hyperlinked to "this one" in the sentence.
But here it is again: https://scoop.upworthy.com/business-owners-rake-money-paying-employees-starvation-wages-labor-exploitation?fbclid=IwAR0YN4iqDe7nFaYqgoT1qgqKsT6-D35YL_9W1mfoXk3mfYMBbIZzVPO-PSI
Ah, I missed the hyperlink in "this one." Thanks.
ApatheticNoMore
9-14-21, 9:14pm
There could potentially be a lot going on.
sure some people dying or becoming disabled due to covid, or caretaking others that became disabled due to long covid.
Then people can't find daycare (the situation is supposedly worse than before the pandemic), so they might choose not to work.
"Child care centers and preschools have shut down in droves, many of them permanently"
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/09/03/daycare-childcare-made-worse-by-covid-pandemic/8245923002/
Some are probably still afraid to send kids to school as well, likely a minority at this point but.
Then car prices (new and especially used) reached record highs and for many jobs people NEED a car to get to work or do the work, so even that might have an effect on ability to get to a job and get a job.
Then with the supply chain being rather dysfunctional there might be a need for even more workers in certain industries.
Then consumer demand has probably shifted permanently somewhat during the pandemic. So some of the jobs that were there before the pandemic are not necessarily the same ones needed now. That's the type of frictional unemployment they say works itself out in time I guess.
ToomuchStuff
9-15-21, 12:00am
There are several people I know, who did not go back to work, after having a kid, during this. Some have multiple kids and realized they were working to pay day care, while others didn't even want to deal with child care. A local business owner came in, expecting us to provide him with some of our employees (older man, losing it). There is a chunk of people.
Now, going the OTHER extreme.......
Before the pandemic, one owner hired a special needs person. This is a person, who as a child had cancer, has epilepsy, has suffered growth deficiencies (thought to be 12), and has had brain issues (just will come to a complete stop, and thinks they are actually having a conversation). The other owner, called them a car payment, without the benefit. The help, myself included, thought this is a bad idea, as no one is trained in case of medical issue (seizure), they require constant supervision. We run a tighter ship then most in our industry, however this pretty well leaves one person doing the work of three. The one owner has been trying to convince "us" the staff, that his brother, really liked having them working. I stated, if they are to come back then they need to be licensed and pass all the requirements of everyone else. (I am doing the work of the one owner as well as my old work)
There is SO much I am having to turn around. Heck, for years, we operated, WITHOUT a schedule (pain in the rear to not know day to day, who is working). Both bosses, operated, with what they call Crisis management. There was a LOT of piss poor practices, that leave me shaking my head.
This article is an interesting read on why so many work-eligible males are not in the workforce. I don't know why the article is focused on men, but it still is interesting--particularly interesting is the inverse correlation between participation in the labor force and the GDP.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/7-ways-men-live-without-working-in-america-092147068.html
Retail is scraping the bottom of the barrel to hire people. The other day I had a clerk scold me because I didn't have exact change. So much for thank you for your business.
flowerseverywhere
9-18-21, 10:08am
This article is an interesting read on why so many work-eligible males are not in the workforce. I don't know why the article is focused on men, but it still is interesting--particularly interesting is the inverse correlation between participation in the labor force and the GDP.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/7-ways-men-live-without-working-in-america-092147068.html
excellent article.
I also got to thinking the majority of deaths, at least at the beginning, were our eldest Americans. How many lived in homes that were long paid for, perhaps had life insurance, had a house and garage full of goods and good savings thanks to the stock market?
getting proceeds from selling all of this could very well propel a simple liver into early retirement.
i could not find a decent scrabble game so got one on eBay. When it came there was a note directing me to their website that listed pages of items from such a situation.
Another group that might have been able to retire early were high wage earners working in places like San Francisco or NYC who were able to work remotely without the high rent, perhaps with their parents, eating out, transportation by going to a much lower COL area and boosting their net worth significantly. Plus the stock market for the small percentage that put in the max plus a match in a 401 the last 15 or 20 years greatly increasing their net worth.
Plus the stock market for the small percentage that put in the max plus a match in a 401 the last 15 or 20 years greatly increasing their net worth.Our net worth has increased by nearly 40% since I retired 3 years ago, but I suspect a correction is in the works.
flowerseverywhere
9-18-21, 1:30pm
Our net worth has increased by nearly 40% since I retired 3 years ago, but I suspect a correction is in the works.
I could not agree more. But for most of us with zero debt it won’t be nearly as bad.
I have noticed in my little neighborhood that there are a noticeable number of 35-60 yo men who live with a relative (mostly their mother); some have jobs but others never leave the house. I am guessing there are a lot of people just sort of patching things together and perhaps they aren't too motivated to work if they can make it work otherwise.
The article didn't cover men who are not stay at home dads but live off their significant others, unless I read it too quickly.
gimmethesimplelife
9-21-21, 7:38pm
My take is that more people are withholding their labor as juiced up UI and the $3,200 USD handed out not long ago bought people actual time to think and time to reduce the cortisol in their systems that living in fear and uncertainty living hand to mouth in America causes. Many people are moving in with family - kind of like in Morocco - where only a few in the family work but everyone eats and is housed. To some this is better than the stressful, go nowhere, meaningless jobs that so dominate the American job market.
Truth be told - were I still waiting tables and were I alone I might pull it, too. I'm not unaware I have had incredible luck finding my current job - stars definitely aligned for this to happen and as soon as I realized the pandemic was actually working FOR me in regards to employment, I took full advantage of this fact. Not all have such good fortune and honestly, coming from my background of struggle, I can't hold this withholding of labor against anyone.
I fully get it. I just live in a different reality at present. But I fully get it. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-21-21, 7:39pm
I have noticed in my little neighborhood that there are a noticeable number of 35-60 yo men who live with a relative (mostly their mother); some have jobs but others never leave the house. I am guessing there are a lot of people just sort of patching things together and perhaps they aren't too motivated to work if they can make it work otherwise.A lot of this is going on in Phoenix, I can tell you that. Rob
Teacher Terry
9-22-21, 2:13pm
Some of the most stressful jobs are customer service jobs at the bottom of the pay scale. It’s no wonder people aren’t rushing back to that type of stress if they don’t have to. Locally people are renting out rooms in their homes and people that rent them are starving off homelessness. Renting a bedroom locally easily costs between 700-900/month. It’s not really surprised that people are moving into a family member’s house if they can. If I was poor I wouldn’t stay here in a HCOL.
happystuff
9-23-21, 10:04am
Some of the most stressful jobs are customer service jobs at the bottom of the pay scale. It’s no wonder people aren’t rushing back to that type of stress if they don’t have to. Locally people are renting out rooms in their homes and people that rent them are starving off homelessness. Renting a bedroom locally easily costs between 700-900/month. It’s not really surprised that people are moving into a family member’s house if they can. If I was poor I wouldn’t stay here in a HCOL.
Or the very physical warehouse-type jobs. Young or not-so-young, these are very physically demanding jobs with little opportunity for career progression - possible, yes, but not easy. With more and more people "ordering from home" practically everything, these are becoming the jobs in high demand and, again, because of their nature, usually have a very high turn-over.
What happens, long term, to these guys who give up on working for their (or anyone else’s) living? If they opt out of developing saleable skills or accumulating assets now, what will they do when the family members currently supporting them are gone? Even if they inherit the housing their parents supply, how will they pay the taxes and upkeep?
I suppose some could live off spouses, but how much demand for these guys can the marriage market support? Who will feed them? The Government? The Democrats’ grand scheme for a redistributive state seems to be collapsing as various factions within the party issue ultimatums to each other.
I think there is a difference between people who can’t work for reasons beyond their control and people who simply elect to make themselves superfluous.
Teacher Terry
9-23-21, 2:16pm
Ldahl, there’s a huge difference between taking a break and not working ever. I have seen people quit their jobs to take care of parents and as you state they are in big trouble once the people die even if they inherit the house.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-21, 2:21pm
Ldahl, there’s a huge difference between taking a break and not working ever. I have seen people quit their jobs to take care of parents and as you state they are in big trouble once the people die even if they inherit the house.
do they even have any choice in such a case? Put the parents in nursing homes, yes but what if neither the parents nor the adult kids can afford to pay for the nursing home?
Teacher Terry
9-23-21, 2:38pm
Yes they have a choice. I put my friend with no money but SS in a nursing home. It was a hour away but I made sure once her level of care increased and so did the fees that they would take Medicaid. I could have put her in a private home locally for the same amount but wanted continuity of care.
Ldahl, there’s a huge difference between taking a break and not working ever. I have seen people quit their jobs to take care of parents and as you state they are in big trouble once the people die even if they inherit the house.
Sure but situations like that have always occurred. What seems to be happening now is that large numbers of people are deciding that work isn’t worth it. And while “taking a break” may be fine for people with a certain level of wealth, for most giving up an extended period of income, and perhaps more importantly work experience, will set them permanently behind.
My kid and I are currently “discussing” the merits of a “gap year” between high school and college. My challenge to him is to provide a plan of how this will result in personal growth, which in my mind goes beyond honing his Xbox skills.
Not working will set them behind, but not by a lot. You can immigrate to this country, never work a day in your life here, and at 65 start collecting Social Security payments not a whole lot less than I and others who paid into the system for 35 years get. And you will get Medicaid on top of Medicare so your dental, vision, transport to medical appointments, gym memberships, etc are all free. Whereas if you work and have retirement savings it can all go poof if you need to go into a nursing home.
So the incentives in the system need to change in favor of work.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-21, 3:31pm
That's not how social security works, it's based on years of work and contribution amounts, except for the spouses payment. There is no never work a day in your life and collect unless one is collecting on spousal payments.
So the incentives in the system need to change in favor of work.
I agree. COVID definitely gave many, many people a taste of that break from drudgery, and you know the saying: "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Pa-ree?"
I have hardworking friends that are digging in their nails over having to go back to a workplace--seeing no reason to give up the work-from-home life. As Jeppy says, and it's true, you add up all the stimulus benefits and even if it's a few hundred less than a paycheck, the trade-off is worth it.
It's easy to call those who found themselves in the situation of being furloughed with benefits lazy for waiting as long as they can to go back to work, but I challenge many to do something different if they were in the same position.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-21, 3:43pm
I've never been in the same position. I think it only applies to low wage jobs.
Otherwise any gap on a resume makes it hard(er) to get another job. And unless they are retired anyone can see they will need another job at some point.
But what if that gap was not much one's fault or one's choice, one was caretaking, one couldn't find work (certainly been there), etc. etc.. Yes, it doesn't matter, you will pay the price for it whether you had all that much choice in the matter or not. We had a potential hire recently we passed on because they changed dates on their resume to hide gaps. Yea I know how it can feel like someone needs to do that, if they keep being passed over and they think a gap on the resume is contributing (it probably is, calls from recruiters dropped over time when I was unemployed). But one really shouldn't do that, it's easily checked.
Furloughed is another matter though, it doesn't read on the resume as unemployed maybe. Work from home is another matter too, it's NOT unemployed in any sense, it's working. Some people do leave for guaranteed to be permanent work from home jobs, my coworker for one.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-21, 4:34pm
I would not encourage a gap year between high school and college unless they work during that year, and even then, sure it might make them appreciate education more, but that's all very theoretical and unlikely, it's FAR more likely to backfire and lead to a kid settling for whatever low wage job they can get with a high school diploma. Or they might even find they can earn good money, but what pays good money without further training? Sales can, jobs with tips it's possible, but it's a harder life. So they want to go to the school of hard knocks? Well if that's the path they choose it's definitely not lazy to make it in the world that way, but it's not easy.
But anyway I don't talk about adults who have been out in the world, earned money, supported themselves, decisions in the world like I talk about 17 or 18 year olds, because they just aren't. If a 30 year old goes back to school rather than immediately goes back to work it may well more than pay off in the long run, if someone quit a job to take care of kids during covid they may pay for it economically for years - but the situation was crazy, if a middle age person has to caretake elderly parents, none of it is 17 year old decision making or decision making of people who have never worked.
frugal-one
9-23-21, 4:42pm
Talked to a 40 something recently that said the government should provide them $ a year to live and medical. Talk about entitled!
GeorgeParker
9-23-21, 7:08pm
Talked to a 40 something recently that said the government should provide them $ a year to live and medical. Talk about entitled!Did you ask them why they think the government should give them money and medical insurance without them doing anything to earn it? Or did you just decide they're a stupid lazy bum, and then go around complaining to everyone else about them being so entitled? (Just askin')
That's not how social security works, it's based on years of work and contribution amounts, except for the spouses payment. There is no never work a day in your life and collect unless one is collecting on spousal payments.
You are wrong. I personally know immigrants who have come here, never worked here, and collect Social Security.
It is called SSI:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/ssi.asp
Once you hit 65 you are in In Like Flynn.
frugal-one
9-23-21, 9:05pm
Did you ask them why they think the government should give them money and medical insurance without them doing anything to earn it? Or did you just decide they're a stupid lazy bum, and then go around complaining to everyone else about them being so entitled? (Just askin')
For your information, I said nothing. I told no one else about this. And, I do feel they are acting entitled! I raised my son to be better but he got involved with an entitled lazy woman. They work as little as possible. BTW... you are on my ignore list. I just checked in without signing in so don't bother replying. I don't respect your know-it-all attitude and avoid seeing it as much as possible.
BTW... you are on my ignore list. I just checked in without signing in so don't bother replying. I don't respect your know-it-all attitude and avoid seeing it as much as possible.
Watch out she'll complain to the moderator about you next because she can't control herself enough to not read and respond to your posts.
I always thought "working as little as possible" was something to aspire to. "Making a dying" was how Joe Dominguez of YMOYL used to describe the typical galley-slave life.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-21, 10:03pm
There are all sort of broader reasons that much work is unsustainable, unnecessary etc..
But individuals often make decisions based on what is best for them, and there is more than a cost to having resume gaps. That's why all these people who want to ruin their lives just for giggles to pretend they never need to work. Yea right. But if one can't find daycare etc. well people react to bad situations as best they can, to competing demands etc.. They aren't just work robots. It's possible there are some Gen Z who have never known a bad economy, they need to have a talk with the millenials who have never known a good economy before.
GeorgeParker
9-23-21, 10:59pm
For your information, I said nothing. I told no one else about this.Good for you. You showed good restraint in the non-digital world. FWIW there are people IRL that I too think are lazy, stupid, entitled, or all three. I just choose to not talk about them online or off.
BTW... you are on my ignore list. I just checked in without signing in so don't bother replying. I don't respect your know-it-all attitude and avoid seeing it as much as possible.In the immortal words of Rhett Butler, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn." I'm perfectly happy to have you ignore me if you think me having strong opinions is the same as having a know-it-all attitude. I, however, do not have anyone on my ignore list, so please forgive me for replying to you. If it weren't for that crack about "know-it-all", I wouldn't have done it. And you have no idea how very much aware I am of how little I know outside of a handful of subjects. That's why I'm still a voracious non-fiction reader at age 72. It's just unfortunate that me sharing what little I know offends you. :|(
I always thought "working as little as possible" was something to aspire to. "Making a dying" was how Joe Dominguez of YMOYL used to describe the typical galley-slave life.
I think there’s a distinction to be made between arranging your affairs around working as little as possible and expecting someone else to do it for you.
Jane v2.0
9-24-21, 12:16am
I think there’s a distinction to be made between arranging your affairs around working as little as possible and expecting someone else to do it for you.
True--a philosophy I've always lived by.
frugal-one
9-24-21, 2:59am
I think there’s a distinction to be made between arranging your affairs around working as little as possible and expecting someone else to do it for you.
Exactly… taking government aid when capable of working. I can understand now getting help with the pandemic situation but not before this … especially since they are able-bodied. I believe in YMOYL philosophy too but there are extremes. They have an entitlement attitude…. believing they should not have to work at all and the government should just provide. WTH
flowerseverywhere
9-24-21, 7:02am
Exactly… taking government aid when capable of working. I can understand now getting help with the pandemic situation but not before this … especially since they are able-bodied. I believe in YMOYL philosophy too but there are extremes. They have an entitlement attitude…. believing they should not have to work at all and the government should just provide. WTH
Some people don't equate the government money and programs as being extracted from taxpayers who are working.
Exactly… taking government aid when capable of working. I can understand now getting help with the pandemic situation but not before this … especially since they are able-bodied. I believe in YMOYL philosophy too but there are extremes. They have an entitlement attitude…. believing they should not have to work at all and the government should just provide. WTH
I “retired” in my mid-30s, shortly after reading YMOYL. I have been underemployed or unemployed ever since, for < 20 years.
I do receive government aid in various forms, as do we all.
Is it terrible for me not to be “working” at my full earning potential? I mean, even now, I could probably figure out how to rake in really quite an extravagant income. Do I have some duty to society to roll up my sleeves and “produce”? Is there a difference if you are “working” for someone else at their enterprise, or working for yourself in your own enterprise?
Are we serfs?
We retired when we hit 55. Hubby was really laid off but we both qualified for early retirement. Been retired for 13 years. I often thought about a part time or full time job doing something interesting but thought it was better to leave those jobs to someone who really needed them. We also ready YMOYL in the 80s and were always frugal savers even though we traveled overseas. Our time is the most valuable asset we have.
I “retired” in my mid-30s, shortly after reading YMOYL. I have been underemployed or unemployed ever since, for < 20 years.
I do receive government aid in various forms, as do we all.
Is it terrible for me not to be “working” at my full earning potential? I mean, even now, I could probably figure out how to rake in really quite an extravagant income. Do I have some duty to society to roll up my sleeves and “produce”? Is there a difference if you are “working” for someone else at their enterprise, or working for yourself in your own enterprise?
Are we serfs?
If you retired as a millionaire and are receiving government aid designed to assist poor people, that's wrong.
If you are enjoying common goods like paved roads, that's different.
And don't get me started on student loan forgiveness programs for folks earning above the median income and jet setting around the world.
We were sitting around our friendly weekend neighborhood firepit Sunday night, and the topic of pandemic benefits related to short staffing came up. One of my neighbors, who owns and runs a multi-generational car dealership, took my son to task for waiting out his benefits before looking for a job. He defended himself by saying that he was the only one last summer that went back to work when restaurants started reopening, but he was furloughed again a couple of months later, and then he decided to wait it out.
Rather haughtily she said, "MY daughter works EVERY DAY! Ev-er-y DAY! And if it were me, I'd work TWO jobs if I had to. But that's just me." My son held his own. When he told her that he's used the time to work on his music, and went to Nashville to promote it, she replied, "Well, not EVERYONE can go on vacation!" He had to tell her that it wasn't a vacation--every day for a month he was out making contacts, performing, attending songwriter circles.
There was a lot of resentment floating above the fire at that point.
They parted amicably at the end of the night, and she admitted to my son, "You know, I accepted the small business grants from the government, so I'm no better." (Subtext, "Taking handouts makes both of us less of a person.")
Takeaways:
Everyone with a decent moral compass should work their a$$es off.
Businesses that have been left short staffed and high and dry are in that position because of lazy bums.
You can be engaged in fulfilling work outside of employment but that's not really work, so that doesn't count. You're still a lazy bum.
If you are a businessperson who took the government handout, that's different.
I'm with GP--it would be a full-time job to sit in judgement over the deserving and the undeserving and it would have no end. My personal spiritual beliefs lead me to try to remember that none of us "deserve" what we have, no more than the bear in the woods "deserves" the raspberries he finds, and no more than the raspberry bush "deserves" the nutrients from the bear poop.
Jane v2.0
9-24-21, 10:10am
I admire anyone who can find a way to support themselves--preferably legally--without working, personally.
frugal-one
9-24-21, 10:10am
I “retired” in my mid-30s, shortly after reading YMOYL. I have been underemployed or unemployed ever since, for < 20 years.
I do receive government aid in various forms, as do we all.
Is it terrible for me not to be “working” at my full earning potential? I mean, even now, I could probably figure out how to rake in really quite an extravagant income. Do I have some duty to society to roll up my sleeves and “produce”? Is there a difference if you are “working” for someone else at their enterprise, or working for yourself in your own enterprise?
Are we serfs?
The point I was making was they do not want to work AT ALL. They believe they should just be handed money and benefits and do nothing for it for the rest of their lives. I believe and have lived by YMOYL but no work at all? Come on.
frugal-one
9-24-21, 10:11am
I admire anyone who can find a way to support themselves--preferably legally--without working, personally.
Those are the optimum words.
ToomuchStuff
9-24-21, 10:32am
Talked to a 40 something recently that said the government should provide them $ a year to live and medical. Talk about entitled!
There are ways to do that, congressman/senator.
iris lilies
9-24-21, 10:57am
Catherine I can see where a business owner would speak to your son out of complete personal frustration, being unable to hire anyone! But she was wrong, it is definitely his business to act the way he wants in whatever way. When the government hands out cheese, we are pretty well trained to take the cheese anymore.
That is sad but that is where we are as a society.
I was talking to my friend about our mutual friend whose 98-year-old father had been in a nursing home for 8+ years and recently died. They told her he died of Covid. She doesn’t think he did. He actually had had Covid, diagnosed with it, several months before his death.
He. Was. 98. Years. Old. For god’s sake, very fragile.
She argued about placing "covid “ as reason for death on the death certificate. Those in charge talked her into it because of the free government cheese being handed out for funerals of covid patients. Nanny G is giving out something like $8,000 toward funeral costs.
Hell in a handbasket.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-21, 12:44pm
I admire anyone who can find a way to support themselves--preferably legally--without working, personally.
the easiest way to do this is to be born into money or to try to live off the parents indefinitely regardless. The second easiest way is to marry into money or at least marry a "breadwinner" who pays your bills. The 3rd easiest way is to slack a bit at one's job, now that's still working of course, just not at 100% capacity.
All other ways are far down the list in terms of popularity and probability.
GeorgeParker
9-24-21, 12:46pm
Is it terrible for me not to be “working” at my full earning potential?I have known people IRL who would consider you a "social parasite" and tell you so to your face because you're not contributing to the benefit/advancement of society as much as you could be.
I think those people should take their opinion and shove it.
I “retired” in my mid-30s, shortly after reading YMOYL. I have been underemployed or unemployed ever since, for < 20 years.
I do receive government aid in various forms, as do we all.
Is it terrible for me not to be “working” at my full earning potential? I mean, even now, I could probably figure out how to rake in really quite an extravagant income. Do I have some duty to society to roll up my sleeves and “produce”? Is there a difference if you are “working” for someone else at their enterprise, or working for yourself in your own enterprise?
Are we serfs?
I can honestly say I don’t care whether you work or not.
I’m not a particularly big believer in the intrinsic value of work. If you, or some ancestor, were clever or lucky in some past boom, I have no problem with that. If you won the lottery or divorced the right billionaire or scored one of Rob’s “big settlements”, I don’t much care. If you choose to work seventy-hour weeks into your seventies, that’s no concern of mine.
But I do think that insisting the rest of us are obligated to support you for no other reason than that you have a “right” to it is problematic. If the view that society owes us a living becomes too widespread, it’s hard to see how that society can survive in the long term.
They say if you marry for money, you'll end up earning it, but I don't call that "supporting yourself." Also, if you're an employed slacker, you're still someone's employee, so that's out. The trust fund thing is a time-honored tradition among the elite; I always joke that in my next life I want one.
iris lilies
9-24-21, 1:24pm
I can honestly say I don’t care whether you work or not.
I’m not a particularly big believer in the intrinsic value of work. If you, or some ancestor, were clever or lucky in some past boom, I have no problem with that. If you won the lottery or divorced the right billionaire or scored one of Rob’s “big settlements”, I don’t much care. If you choose to work seventy-hour weeks into your seventies, that’s no concern of mine.
But I do think that insisting the rest of us are obligated to support you for no other reason than that you have a “right” to it is problematic. If the view that society owes us a living becomes too widespread, it’s hard to see how that society can survive in the long term.
I am a believer in the intrinsic value of work. BUT…I define “work” very broadly. Humans do well when their little minds are occupied with issues other than complete focus on themselves.
If I want to sit around and have thinky thoughts all day, thoughts that support my personal health, happiness, and engagement with the world, good for me. If this “work” keeps me hale and hearty, good for me! As long as I don’t ignore obligations I am as good a citizen of the world as the next person.
It’s just that on a practical level I think most people sitting around doing zero and having thoughts are led astray in so many ways.
The folks who are holding off for just the right job or pay rate are going to run out of time sooner or later if they’re still getting unemployment. States that had removed the requirement to job search have reinstated that. I wonder if these people are even doing a token job search. But then if you’re offered a job and refuse it, that’s a black mark but I don’t think there’s any way to verify it if that happens.
frugal-one
9-24-21, 3:31pm
I can honestly say I don’t care whether you work or not.
I’m not a particularly big believer in the intrinsic value of work. If you, or some ancestor, were clever or lucky in some past boom, I have no problem with that. If you won the lottery or divorced the right billionaire or scored one of Rob’s “big settlements”, I don’t much care. If you choose to work seventy-hour weeks into your seventies, that’s no concern of mine.
But I do think that insisting the rest of us are obligated to support you for no other reason than that you have a “right” to it is problematic. If the view that society owes us a living becomes too widespread, it’s hard to see how that society can survive in the long term.
We agree on something!
If a person finds their true vocation--paid or unpaid-and embraces it, it's a beautiful thing. Or if they find an occupation they find pleasing, that's not a bad way to live, either. I don't think the paid work most people do fits either of these criteria. At this point, I just sit around here stagnantly, thinking. :D I hope I'm not going to be led astray, but I'll keep tabs on my rollator just in case. :laff:
I've never been a busy person or a busy body; I'm not going to change at this late date.
frugal-one
9-24-21, 3:35pm
There are ways to do that, congressman/senator.
Yeah, but how many people is this actually?
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