Ad promoting IL abortion rights to attract businesses [Archive]

Tradd

9-14-21, 1:26pm

I usually avoid abortion discussions like the plague, but this is really f’ed up. A Chicago business group ran an ad in a TX newspaper touting all these reasons why TX businesses should move to IL. Why this one is over the top? They were touting IL’s protection of reproductive rights. That’s right, folks, move your business to TX because IL will let your employees kill their unborn babies. This is just a very odd ad.

I’m not getting into the abortion debate. I’m only posting about the ad itself.

IL/Chicago comes up with some really screwed up stuff, but this one just has me scratching my head. 3960

iris lilies

9-14-21, 1:41pm

Well, creative i guess. Blech.

Alan

9-14-21, 1:51pm

We've reached a point in society where a fetus in utero is considered to be something along the lines of Schrodinger's cat. At any point of it's residency it may be a live human worthy of protection or it may be some sort of tumor requiring expungement, it all depends upon the mother's belief and/or desire. Since it seems those with the latter point of view seem to be increasing, it's only natural for a business to exploit that delusion.

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 1:54pm

That’s right, folks, move your business [to IL from TX] because IL will let your employees kill their unborn babies.That isn't what it says at all! Not even close to it.

Texas recently passed a law that intentionally restricts/suppresses voting by minorities and in heavily Democratic areas. Texas also recently passed a clearly unconstitutional law that bans all abortions including in cases of rape or incest unless the woman realizes she's pregnant and gets the abortion within six weeks of conception. And the Texas governor has repeatedly issued executive orders that fly in the face of any reasonable covid precautions, the latest being his executive order that no school or government building can require employees or visitors to wear a mask (and yet one of his current executive orders says any business that wants to can require employees or customers to wear a mask.)

IL is just pointing to the most recent newsworthy breaches of voting rights, personal freedom, and public health policy in Texas and saying "We still respect your rights and believe in science."

ETA: Bill Clinton said abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare." That's good enough for me and that settles it, except that I would add "Decisions about abortion and other medical proceedures should be made by the patient and doctor, not some government bureaucrat!"

Tybee

9-14-21, 1:58pm

Alan, I see the same thing on the other end of life, where people's comments about "qualify of life" for their elderly parents extend into euthanasia. And the argument is based a lot of the time on how much bother it is to care for the person, and why should their life be "prolonged", when "prolonging life" seems to include things like feeding people and getting them help with medical diagnosis.

Right now my mother's guardian thinks it is perfectly okay for her to fall and hit her head and black out, and the to refuse to take her to the ER for tests. "What would be the point?" she said.

I'm so angry right now.

iris lilies

9-14-21, 2:16pm

To Tybee’s point, I see care of the elderly at the end of life as living in the hands of those who are responsible for them and yes those decisions will change from family to family, from caregiver to caregiver, from institution to institution.

Our society right now sets standards of medical care and if those are highly exceeded in one case and just barely met in another case, that seems reasonable to me.

I always equate these things to veterinary practices and pet care. Some pets get extraordinarily good care, thoughtful care, whole animal considered care. Some get little to no care at all. Some get extensively crazy care that in my opinion, causes pain for months and years beyond what they should have to endure. The latter happens because the owner can’t let them go and has to expend thousands of dollars they don’t have. Yes I see this in the world I’m in, i know someone has gone bankrupt twice and extensive pet care has something to do with it.

Alan

9-14-21, 2:17pm

ETA: Ronald Regan said abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare." I believe that was Bill Clinton. I also believe Ronald Reagan would be appalled by your characterization of his beliefs since I vividly recall his often stated belief that abortion should only be used as a form of self defense, in other words if pregnancy should pose a risk of death or grievous harm to the mother. In that case I think he believed that abortion (in self defense) should not be a legal right but rather a non-prosecutable action, in much the same way all other uses of lethal force in self defense or defense of another are considered.

Tybee

9-14-21, 2:21pm

I believe that was Bill Clinton.

It was indeed:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/how-democrats-purged-safe-legal-rare-from-the-party/2019/11/15/369af73c-01a4-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

Yppej

9-14-21, 2:34pm

Maybe this will balance all the restaurants moving from blue states like New York to Florida so they can operate without government shutdowns.

Jane v2.0

9-14-21, 3:33pm

There are many reasons to flee Texas; draconian abortion restrictions are just one.
I don't see anything wrong with states recruiting new residents--in fact it seems to me they do so regularly.

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 4:51pm

I believe that was Bill Clinton. I also believe Ronald Reagan would be appalled by your characterization of his beliefs since I vividly recall his often stated belief that abortion should only be used as a form of self defenseYou're right. It was Clinton who first used that phrase. I was mistaken.

But as to Reagan's beliefs: As governor of California he signed a very permissive abortion bill. He didn't start pushing a strong anti-abortion stance until later when it became obvious that being anti-abortion was politically advantageous. So I think he might have been closer to "safe, legal, and rare" than you'd like to admit. Certainly he was in favor of safe, legal abortions being available in cases where the life of the mother was in danger, and that's the most obvious example of a "Safe, legal, and rare" abortion. Any interpretation beyond that I'll leave to the analysis presidential scholars.

BTW and just for your enjoyment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC1kYjH9nY0

Alan

9-14-21, 5:03pm

But as to Reagan's beliefs: As governor of California he signed a very permissive abortion bill. Are you referring to the Therapeutic Abortion Bill which de-criminalized abortion to protect a woman's "physical or mental health"? I recall him saying he regretted that because he didn't anticipate the sheer volume of abortions based upon spurious medical claims. I don't see anything in his actions to dispute his "self defense only" ideology.

ApatheticNoMore

9-14-21, 5:16pm

Safe, legal, and rare = use birth control.

I don't see why I should respect what either Bill Clinton or Reagan say, I respect neither. But the position itself is reasonable, it basically amounts to saying it's preferable to use birth control and fewer abortions will be needed.

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 5:23pm

Are you referring to the Therapeutic Abortion Bill which de-criminalized abortion to protect a woman's "physical or mental health"? I recall him saying he regretted that because he didn't anticipate the sheer volume of abortions based upon spurious medical claims.You can regret something you created being misused, and still believe it is a good thing when used properly.

The fact I voted for Reagan in 1981 and the fact I'm more or less defending him by suggesting that his actual opinions may have been less extreme than his political statements is as far as I'll go on that issue.

Alan

9-14-21, 5:55pm

The fact I voted for Reagan in 1981 and the fact I'm more or less defending him by suggesting that his actual opinions may have been less extreme than his political statements is as far as I'll go on that issue.
Yes, I think your work is done, and done fairly well. You started off with a scathing review of Republicans in your state and then mistakenly used Ronald Reagan as an example of how the most conservative President of the modern era was more in line with current progressive sensibilities regarding abortion then those podunk Texas rubes.

When your mistake was pointed out you graciously acknowledged the error but doubled down on the implication that you were actually right while being wrong without bothering to provide any proof to back it up. And then we come to the genius level political sidestep where you decline to go any farther on the issue.

Bravo Mr Parker, Bravo!

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 6:41pm

You started off with a scathing review of Republicans in your state and then mistakenly used Ronald Reagan as an example of how the most conservative President of the modern era was more in line with current progressive sensibilities regarding abortion then those podunk Texas rubes.scathing? rubes? Where did you get that? What I said about the recently passed laws in Texas was factual and nothing I said implied that the people who passed them were rubes, indeed they are sophisticated politicians who know how to keep themselves in office by keeping their base excited.

My opinion of what Reagan's true position was vs his political statements is based on what I've read about him, and It was stated as being my opinion. Was Reagan secretly "in line with current progressive sensibilities regarding abortion"? Certainly not. I don't think anyone at that time was, and I'm not either.

And the reason I see no point in defending my opinion of Reagan is because obviously nothing anyone says in this thread is really going to change anyone's opinion of him and his legacy. The same goes for my opinion of abortion: It should be safe, legal, and rare.

Alan

9-14-21, 6:55pm

Note to self: Find and install hands clapping emoji.

Note to Mr Parker: Well done sir! :+1:

ApatheticNoMore

9-14-21, 6:59pm

I suspect the real TRUE position of Reagan and Clinton is they both at times had sex with women without birth control without wanting a pregnancy. But I can't prove it, but an actor hmm ... and Clinton what more need be said .... But with Lewinsky, he DID prevent unwanted pregnancy, oral sex is preventing unwanted pregnancy, so he did his part to keep abortion rare if he actually didn't "have sex". One suspects Clinton got more out of that encounter than Lewinsky, but then that's usually the case with intercourse too, and at least she never got pregnant as far as anyone knows.

iris lilies

9-14-21, 7:13pm

Note to self: Find and install hands clapping emoji.

Note to Mr Parker: Well done sir! :+1:

Please install an eye rolling emoji as well! I often need it.

Tybee

9-14-21, 7:30pm

Please install an eye rolling emoji as well! I often need it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksy8tBzE1yg

rosarugosa

9-14-21, 8:17pm

pinkytoe

9-14-21, 8:29pm

I don't think any male will ever comprehend what it is like to be pregnant and have to make the choice to terminate for all sorts of reasons. That the good 'ol boy governor and his cohorts are calling the shots mostly for political reasons is repugnant to me. I lived in Texas for most of my life but now I'm glad not to be there anymore. They are idiots to me. Other states advertising for abortions is also repugnant.

bae

9-14-21, 9:00pm

I don't think any male will ever comprehend what it is like to be pregnant and have to make the choice to terminate for all sorts of reasons.

Well, transgender and nonbinary folks may find themselves in this situation...

iris lilies

9-14-21, 9:10pm

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 10:01pm

Please install an eye rolling emoji as well! I often need it.>8):|( They've already been there forever. An animated one for normal use and a blushy one for when you say something embarrassing. Enjoy.

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 10:08pm

I offered to look into taking her to Switzerland a few years ago (Dignitas), but she was hesitant, so I didn't pursue it. I think that would have been the kindest possible act of love I could ever offer.Oregon would be cheaper, but to do it there you have to be within 6 months of dying, iirc. I just hope by the time I'm ready to die, voluntary suicide will be quick and legal in whatever state I'm living in.

IMO you're exactly the kind of compassionate caregiver I hope I'll have when I'm in my last few months of life.

jp1

9-14-21, 10:12pm

Not that we’ll ever have these stats but it would be interesting to know how many Texans will get abortions now and what their demographics end up being. It’s not a particularly radical concept to expect that Texas women who can afford to will simply go out of state to get abortions now. Lower income people may not have that option. So they will either have a baby they can’t afford and that the state won’t give a shit about and help them raise after it’s born, or they will go underground and have an unsafe abortion. Yay for the pro life people. They’ve managed to make the rest of us further think they are a bunch of lying frauds that don’t really care about life. If they did they’d be including access to birth control in this bill and access to help raising the children they are forcing poor women to have. But the fact that they didn’t tells us all we need to know about them.

bae

9-14-21, 10:21pm

If they did they’d be including access to birth control in this bill and access to help raising the children they are forcing poor women to have. But the fact that they didn’t tells us all we need to know about them.

I like the feature where you have to carry your rapist's child to term. That's so special.

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 10:31pm

They’ve managed to make the rest of us further think they are a bunch of lying frauds that don’t really care about life.Don't breath a sigh of relief too soon. The new Texas anti-abortion law is a stalking horse. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse ) It will almost certainly get shot down at some point in the court system, but in the process of litigating it the courts will probably redefine and loosen the Roe vs Wade restrictions on how far a state can go in prohibiting abortions. Once that happens other conservative states will jump in with tight anti-abortion laws that barely comply with the new standards or maybe exceed them a little. And while we're waiting for this whole thing to play out in court, various right wing states are already crafting anti-abortion laws similar to the one in Texas, knowing the existence of the Texas law will give them a certain amount of cover and justification.

iris lilies

9-14-21, 10:52pm

>8):|( They've already been there forever. An animated one for normal use and a blushy one for when you say something embarrassing. Enjoy.

oh right!

:|(>8)

jp1

9-14-21, 10:59pm

I’m certainly not breathing a sigh of relief. The only good that may come
out of this is that all the people who thought ‘oh, the republicans will never succeed in overturning roe v wade’ may actually reassess that thought. Even on this site we had had people poo poo’ing the idea that the handmaiden and justice mcbeer would move quickly to ignore precedent on abortion. Yet here we are not even a year later.

Just as people will be forced to reassess the ‘January 6th and the evil of trump was an aberration’ will have to reassess considering that the sad sack loser Larry elder has already baselessly claimed voter fraud in our recall election today before the votes have even been counted. In my perfect world the republicans would look at the fact that their policy ideas are not even remotely popular and adjust course. But they have chosen to go down a different, sad route of baselessly denying the legitimacy of elections and preventing people who disagree with them from voting. Because they hate America that bad. Eff them and the horse they rode in on.

GeorgeParker

9-14-21, 11:09pm

oh right! :|(>8){GeorgeParker emits an undignified giggle}

Teacher Terry

9-15-21, 12:20am

Most late term abortions were wanted babies that have a condition in which they will die a few months after birth but suffer greatly before dying. They are heartbreaking situations. People don’t abort for frivolous reasons at that point. It’s a medical decision a woman and her doctor make. My mom was very religious but always said if men got pregnant abortion would be a god given right.

It’s a way to control women if you take away reproductive rights. It’s always the people that want to make it illegal that cry the loudest about poor people having kids they can’t afford and social programs. Birth control isn’t cheap if you don’t have insurance and it fails sometimes. I had a friend that was raped in a hotel room and became pregnant with twins. Thankfully she had a choice. That’s what all women need is a opportunity to make their own decisions.

bae

9-15-21, 1:00am

My sister used to be raped by her husband so that she would get pregnant, so that he could sell off the children to support their life of crime. I believe I recounted this horror story here in the past. Sometimes when they would get arrested, she'd manage to get an abortion while in custody. I have 3 nieces and nephews that vanished that way. 23andme has located two of them so far.

ToomuchStuff

9-15-21, 1:38am

Abortion - only if the woman is pregnant and doesn't want to be
Euthanasia - only if quality of life sucks and person doesn't want to live any longer
Just call me Rosa Kevorkian if you like.
Mom frequently says she wishes she could just take a pill, and I tell her that if it were that easy, I would lovingly give her the pill with her beverage of choice, and I would. I offered to look into taking her to Switzerland a few years ago (Dignitas), but she was hesitant, so I didn't pursue it. I think that would have been the kindest possible act of love I could ever offer.
Have you John Cleesed her?

https://youtu.be/UefOyRQF7fw

Well, transgender and nonbinary folks may find themselves in this situation...
I think we are quite a ways away yet, from biological males, having female sex organs transplanted and having the ability to have a child. However, if your referring to the female that was taking steroids and was planning on becoming a male, that got pregnant because the spouse was infertile, then you are closer to accurate.

I like the feature where you have to carry your rapist's child to term. That's so special.

My grandfather was brought to term, because there was no safe and effective abortion, and the DIY methods failed his mother (raped by her owner, then abandoned, did try to self abort). When the nuns did their trying to set up unwed mothers with husbands, well in his case, he was horsewhipped to get the evil out of him. Abortion may be a better idea then some of the families out there, IMHE.
I know I wouldn't be here, if safe/legal abortion had been capable or even an option. I also know we view so much in the way of money, I actually responded to a local survey on things like abortion, the death penalty, food stamps, etc. etc. by asking about the financial costs, as we already believe in death, since we have the death penalty, suicide is legal in most cases (attempted/failing, is illegal), legal abortion, etc.

LDAHL

9-15-21, 10:16am

Between the abortion thing and the murder rate, I could see how Chicago might be attractive to companies looking to cull the herd.

catherine

9-15-21, 10:45am

Between the abortion thing and the murder rate, I could see how Chicago might be attractive to companies looking to cull the herd.

Here are three op-eds from the NYT I just read this morning:

"Abortion Has Never Been About Abortion." (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/15/opinion/abortion-evangelicals-conservatives.html)

At a time when open racism was becoming unfashionable, these politicians needed a more high-minded issue, one that would not compel them to surrender their fundamental political orientation. And of course the beauty of defending a fetus is that the fetus demands nothing in return — housing, health care, education — so it’s a fairly low-risk advocacy.

And Slogans Don't Save Lives (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/14/opinion/legacy-beauford-black-lives-matter.html):

Chicago is on pace this year to have the most homicides in a quarter-century, with at least 60 people shot, seven fatally, last weekend alone.

And the third, "When Whites Just Don't Get It" (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-after-ferguson-race-deserves-more-attention-not-less.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article)

• The net worth of the average black household in the United States is $6,314, compared with $110,500 for the average white household, according to 2011 census data. The gap has worsened in the last decade, and the United States now has a greater wealth gap by race than South Africa did during apartheid. (Whites in America on average own almost 18 times as much as blacks; in South Africa in 1970, the ratio was about 15 times.)
The black-white income gap is roughly 40 percent greater today than it was in 1967.

• A black boy born today in the United States has a life expectancy five years shorter than that of a white boy.

• Black students are significantly less likely to attend schools offering advanced math and science courses than white students. They are three times as likely to be suspended and expelled, setting them up for educational failure.

• Because of the catastrophic experiment in mass incarceration, black men in their 20s without a high school diploma are more likely to be incarcerated today than employed, according to a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research. Nearly 70 percent of middle-aged black men who never graduated from high school have been imprisoned.

Bottom line: These issues of equality, racial or otherwise, and socio-economics, and access to abortion are interestingly all related. And basically the relationship is about who holds the power.

LDAHL

9-15-21, 11:16am

Here are three op-eds from the NYT I just read this morning:

"Abortion Has Never Been About Abortion." (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/15/opinion/abortion-evangelicals-conservatives.html)

At a time when open racism was becoming unfashionable, these politicians needed a more high-minded issue, one that would not compel them to surrender their fundamental political orientation. And of course the beauty of defending a fetus is that the fetus demands nothing in return — housing, health care, education — so it’s a fairly low-risk advocacy.

And Slogans Don't Save Lives (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/14/opinion/legacy-beauford-black-lives-matter.html):

Chicago is on pace this year to have the most homicides in a quarter-century, with at least 60 people shot, seven fatally, last weekend alone.

And the third, "When Whites Just Don't Get It" (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-after-ferguson-race-deserves-more-attention-not-less.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article)

• The net worth of the average black household in the United States is $6,314, compared with $110,500 for the average white household, according to 2011 census data. The gap has worsened in the last decade, and the United States now has a greater wealth gap by race than South Africa did during apartheid. (Whites in America on average own almost 18 times as much as blacks; in South Africa in 1970, the ratio was about 15 times.)
The black-white income gap is roughly 40 percent greater today than it was in 1967.

• A black boy born today in the United States has a life expectancy five years shorter than that of a white boy.

• Black students are significantly less likely to attend schools offering advanced math and science courses than white students. They are three times as likely to be suspended and expelled, setting them up for educational failure.

• Because of the catastrophic experiment in mass incarceration, black men in their 20s without a high school diploma are more likely to be incarcerated today than employed, according to a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research. Nearly 70 percent of middle-aged black men who never graduated from high school have been imprisoned.

Bottom line: These issues of equality, racial or otherwise, and socio-economics, and access to abortion are interestingly all related. And basically the relationship is about who holds the power.

And it’s clear who holds the power in our most wretched, crime-ridden cities. The party who believes everything comes down to race.

jp1

9-15-21, 11:42am

And it’s clear who holds the power in our most wretched, crime-ridden cities. The party who believes everything comes down to race.

It's also clear who holds the power in our most wretched disease filled states. The party who believes in the hollow slogan of personal responsibility.

catherine

9-15-21, 11:44am

And who holds the power in TX? Those who put a cluster of non-sentient cells secondary to the welfare of women--disproportionately poor. And who, while talking about the "sanctity of life" will torture animals in feedlots and take an eye for an eye for criminal offenses and exploit workers in the name of free enterprise. Sanctimonius hypocrisy.

Teacher Terry

9-15-21, 12:05pm

Well said Catherine!!

ApatheticNoMore

9-15-21, 12:36pm

The thing about the race argument on abortion is it makes little sense. So let's say minorities have less access to abortion, that means a larger % minority population in the future right? And that's supposed to be what racists want? I would think what racists would want is white people NOT to get abortions and to have a bunch of kids (more white babies. isn't that kind of what racists historically want?).

I mean maybe you could say they want a large (minority?) labor pool to exploit in the future or something, yea that could happen if the poor have tons of kids and the rich one or two, but that seems several degrees detached from race as a motive at that point and to be about class. And yes everyone pushes population growth (except those who believe in resource limits).

I'm fine with calling it misogynistic. It's literally not caring about females and their experience.