View Full Version : Should prostitution be legal?
gimmethesimplelife
9-19-21, 12:02pm
I used to be 100 against prostitution and am still not thrilled with the concept - though I had an experience in Mexico (minds out of gutter LOL) that led me to think a bit differently. I was offered the services of a woman (obviously her gaydar was not up to speed) and I just said my standard line when offered drugs or prostitution in Mexico - "I'm not here to break any laws."
This woman told me that prostitution is legal in Mexico. That night at my hotel I googled and it turns out this is true. When I saw the same woman a day later, I told her I found out she was right and she told me something that changed my mind. She said that she had no other option as she was unskilled and there was no realistic way for her to become skilled and sneaking into the US was not an option as she had already been deported. So it was this or do something cartel related or steal. She found selling her body the least awful of all her options though she was not proud of it. She also told me that she was highly religious but believed because of her lack of options, God would understand.
Anyhow, to my point, I'm not thrilled with the idea of prostitution but I understand better that in some cases, there are no other real or immediate options. What do you think? Rob
iris lilies
9-19-21, 12:12pm
The libertarian point of view is that women (few men because dxck is free, pardon my bluntness) should be able to make a living selling access to whatever they have. I am pretty much here.
The paternalistic point of view, which covers the right and the left, wants to see restrictions for their pet ideas.
It is, of course, legal in Parts of the state of Nevada and has been for some time.
Teacher Terry
9-19-21, 12:55pm
In rural Nevada it’s legal and safe because the women have frequent health checks.
iris lilies
9-19-21, 1:03pm
I read posts on the “sugarbaby” sub reddit. I think a lot of the men and women there are fooling themselves and are searching for the elusive Holy Grail of a classic sugar baby relationship which usually means young woman, older prosperous man, some degree of financial support for the woman.
But that said, these relationships do exist. That would not have been anything I was interested in as a young person because Was too immature to be interested in excessive pleasing of someone else in my personal relationships. I suppose if I had a daughter who is savvy in that regard I could theoretically give her my blessing in going after these relationships, I just think that they’re generally not very successful. Spending time chasing them is impractical. For reasonably rich and well off men, and for a girls who are super cute in the 8 to 10 range, it probably works.
For Uber Rich “whales “as they call them on the sugar baby sub reddit, those guys don’t find their own dates, people do that for them. Or they run into women in their many events about town.
Speaking of this issue, I saw the most astonishing documentary about an Olympian woman in sports who was married with child and who, get this, was one of the highest rated “escorts” in Las Vegas. I’ll go off and find the name of that documentary. She was actually mentally ill during that period, but boy did she turn that mental illness into a focused success of sorts. Very weird.
here’s the info about Olympian-turned-escort/call girl
https://people.com/sports/olympic-runner-suzy-favor-hamilton-describes-working-as-a-las-vegas-call-girl/
It's not an option I would have chosen, but I don't think any good comes from criminalizing it.
The sugar daddy thing repulses me--it's basically prostitution called something else--and I've always hated the idea of living off of someone else anyway. I think overt hooking is much more honorable. But again, individuals have choices. (If my theoretical daughter were involved, I'd despair of my parenting and have her head examined.)
iris lilies
9-19-21, 1:24pm
The sugar daddy thing repulses me--it's basically prostitution called something else--and I've always hated the idea of living off of someone else anyway. I think overt hooking is much more honorable. But again, individuals have choices. (If my theoretical daughter were involved, I'd despair of my parenting and have her head examined.)
Oh I disagree, the legitimate sugar relationships that exist are RELATIONSHIPS that go beyond transactional interactions.Women and men get something out of it besides money and sex: companionship for fun and socializing, stable opposite sex validation, sometimes mentoring, sometimes enlightening experiences across generations.
My daughters wouldn’t be sugar baby material anyway. They’d be too nerdy, introspective, and not especially mature. I always used to joke with my friends and say yeah that’s why I want to adopt a child from China, because it would be a good chance that girl would be smart, pretty, and athletic, unlike my own progeny.
GeorgeParker
9-19-21, 1:42pm
The sugar daddy thing repulses me--it's basically prostitution called something else--and I've always hated the idea of living off of someone else anyway. I think overt hooking is much more honorable. But again, individuals have choices.Having a sugar daddy and keeping him happy is better than prostitution because you only have one sex partner instead of a different random guy(s) every night, which reduces the odds of you getting VD or going to bed with a guy who seems ok but ends up beating and abusing you during the night. It's also better because you and he learn how to turn each other on the most easily, and you learn how much and how long you should tease him before giving him what he wants. That creates a more pleasurable experience for both of you, compared with sleeping with a bunch of different guys.
And even though it was very risque at the time old movies have absolutely touted the sugar daddy relationship. Examples:
Girl: "Are those diamonds real."
Mae West: "Yes"
Girl: "Oh, my goodness."
Mae West: "Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie."
And Let's not forget "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend" https://youtu.be/knLd8bfeWtI?t=123
...
My daughters wouldn’t be sugar baby material anyway. They’d be too nerdy, introspective, and not especially mature. I always used to joke with my friends and say yeah that’s why I want to adopt a child from China, because it would be a good chance that girl would be smart, pretty, and athletic, unlike my own progeny.
I would certainly hope to produce nerdy daughters--I would be overjoyed to have a daughter from the Rachel Maddow mold. My poor mother was looking for a social butterfly--sorry to disappoint, Mom! :~) (I share your estimation of Chinese adoptees, in general).
If it were on a ballot I would vote against it based purely on moral principles and a sign of social devolution, but under the premise of my "body my choice" I could picture a strong argument in favor of legalization.
I think I mentioned here some years ago that I was a member of SWOP-Seattle (Sex Workers Outreach Project) and SEPIA (Society of Erotic Professionals in Action). I have testified in front of city and state legislatures on sexworker rights, do outreach work with marginalized sexworkers, and, as a dumpy middle aged male, work in the field myself providing useful services to clients. I think I also mentioned prepandemic that I was likely going to pivot into sex therapy work, but the pandemic has derailed some of my plans.
So, yes, I think sexwork should be legal.
happystuff
9-19-21, 3:10pm
If it were on a ballot I would vote against it based purely on moral principles and a sign of social devolution, but under the premise of my "body my choice" I could picture a strong argument in favor of legalization.
Interesting. I always had a hard time understanding why/how unpaid sex between two consenting adults was any different than paid-for sex between two consenting adults except for the money aspect. (NOT talking about underage sex/sex with a minor! Totally different topic!) I think it is clear that having a piece of paper saying you can have sex with ONLY the other person named on that paper, doesn't work in reality. If it did, there would be way, WAY less of a lot of other "social/moral" problems like the horrid "premarital sex". Seriously, how many people actually refrain from ALL SEX until AFTER they are legally married?????
Sex is happening anyway - I say legalize prostitution.
ETA: And this is not even bringing in the topic of masturbation - which many consider "sex". So... masturbation before marriage - immoral? Brings a whole other level to the discussion. Hmmm... do we really want to go there? :|( ;)
If it were on a ballot I would vote against it based purely on moral principles and a sign of social devolution, but under the premise of my "body my choice" I could picture a strong argument in favor of legalization.
Illegal prostitution brings abuse from pimps, the legal system, and johns to often desperate women with no ability to fight back. It's probably the least "Christian" approach one could choose.
In the big scheme of things it hardly seems like a big issue either way to me, but if I had a daughter interested in becoming a legalized sex worker, I would not encourage it as a legitimate profession.
happystuff
9-19-21, 4:03pm
In the big scheme of things it hardly seems like a big issue either way to me, but if I had a daughter interested in becoming a legalized sex worker, I would not encourage it as a legitimate profession.
Being a parent, I understand what you are saying here - for daughter or son.
iris lilies
9-19-21, 4:20pm
In the big scheme of things it hardly seems like a big issue either way to me, but if I had a daughter interested in becoming a legalized sex worker, I would not encourage it as a legitimate profession.
I wouldn’t encourage my kid to do anything professionally that relies entirely on the bloom of youth. That bloom goes away pretty fast.
GeorgeParker
9-19-21, 4:24pm
ETA: And this is not even bringing in the topic of masturbation - which many consider "sex". So... masturbation before marriage - immoral? Brings a whole other level to the discussion. Hmmm... do we really want to go there? :|( ;)Some people consider masturbation after marriage equally immoral because you're not using sex in the way God intended it to be used -- as a bonding process that strengthens the relationship between a man and a woman.
From my point of view, masturbation isn't immoral either before marriage or while married, it's just a convenient way for men and women to satisfy a totally normal desire when a suitable partner isn't readily available at that particular moment (spouse is at work, out of town overnight, etc)
work in the field myself providing useful services to clients.
None of my business but I'll ask: is there a big market for dumpy middle aged men? How does your primary relationship feel about you sharing your body with others?
I would decriminalize for consenting adults and stiffen the penalties for child trafficking and trafficking in adults (such as illegal immigrants forced into the trade because of their precarious legal status).
Prostitution is also legal in Montreal.
GeorgeParker
9-19-21, 5:07pm
None of my business but I'll ask: is there a big market for dumpy middle aged men? How does your primary relationship feel about you sharing your body with others?I sincerely hope that wasn't what Bae meant. :0!
Prostitution is also legal in Montreal.
I had to look it up. Apparently providing sexual services for pay, as in prostitution, is legal. But the clients, who are primarily men, are committing a criminal act by using such a service. That makes some sense to me. Pimping also seems to be illegal. It falls under their definition of sexual exploitation.
happystuff
9-19-21, 5:21pm
I had to look it up. Apparently providing sexual services for pay, as in prostitution, is legal. But the clients, who are primarily men, are committing a criminal act by using such a service. That makes some sense to me. Pimping also seems to be illegal. It falls under their definition of sexual exploitation.
I'm not sure I understand. It's seems to me to be like saying "It's legal for me to sell my hamburger to you, but it's illegal for you to buy my hamburger."
I can see the pimping to be illegal and falling under sexual exploitation.
happystuff
9-19-21, 5:33pm
Okay, George... now, I know you are way smarter than this!
(Okay... a little funny. lol)
I can see the pimping to be illegal and falling under sexual exploitation.
Well, now I had to look up the definition of sexual exploitation. Your definition seems different.
They could make it a local standards thing like porn.
I’m not sure I’d want street solicitation on my block, but consenting adults should be able to make any arrangements they want.
happystuff
9-19-21, 5:36pm
Well, now I had to look up the definition of sexual exploitation. Your definition seems different.
Sorry - I think I'm getting confused. I wasn't trying to define sexual exploitation, but rather agreeing that "pimping also seems to be illegal. It falls under their definition of sexual exploitation.".
My "hamburger" example was in reference to "Apparently providing sexual services for pay, as in prostitution, is legal. But the clients, who are primarily men, are committing a criminal act by using such a service."
I sincerely hope that wasn't what Bae meant. :0!
Sorta did. There’s a whole wide world of experiences out there…. The trick is to find a niche that matches your skill set and available market.
GeorgeParker
9-19-21, 5:45pm
Okay, George... now I know you are way smarter than this! (Okay... a little funny. lol)Yes, I'm way way way smarter than that. But sometimes my humor misses the mark. Joke removed, but you'll have to remove it from your reply if you want it to be totally gone.
happystuff
9-19-21, 5:49pm
Yes, I'm way way way smarter than that. But sometimes my humor misses the mark. Joke removed, but you'll have to remove it from your reply if you want it to be totally gone.
Again, I recognized it as humor - all is well. Was just teasing back. :)
Wearing a mask isn't that different from wearing a gag if that's your niche. Not my idea of a good time.
GeorgeParker
9-19-21, 5:56pm
Again, I recognized it as humor - all is well. Was just teasing back. :)Yes, I recognized that.
Sorry - I think I'm getting confused. I wasn't trying to define sexual exploitation, but rather agreeing that "pimping also seems to be illegal. It falls under their definition of sexual exploitation.".
My "hamburger" example was in reference to "Apparently providing sexual services for pay, as in prostitution, is legal. But the clients, who are primarily men, are committing a criminal act by using such a service."
No apology necessary. Near as I can tell sexual exploitation depends on who is defining it. The Canadian government seems to define it as using the services of a prostitute, near as I can tell.
Moral issues don't always follow the best of pure logic.
happystuff
9-19-21, 6:16pm
[QUOTE=Rogar;392197]No apology necessary. Near as I can tell sexual exploitation depends on who is defining it. The Canadian government seems to define it as using the services of a prostitute, near as I can tell.
Moral issues don't always follow the best of pure logic.[/ of QUOTE]
So true.
GeorgeParker
9-19-21, 6:28pm
Apparently providing sexual services for pay, as in prostitution, is legal. But the clients, who are primarily men, are committing a criminal act by using such a service."If the laws there are like the ones where I live, the thing that makes it illegal is the customer offering to pay for sex. That makes it "soliciting for prostitution" because offering someone money is similar enough to coercion for it to be illegal. If the woman asked for money, and the man agreed, then the legalities would get very murky IMO.
Solicitation of Prostitution Under the New Texas Penal Code §43.021. Under the new Texas law, it remains a crime to solicit prostitution even if no money is exchanged (or other form of payment) and/or no sexual conduct transpires. It remains a crime in Texas merely to ask for sex in exchange for any type of payment.
GeorgeParker
9-19-21, 6:35pm
Sorta did. There’s a whole wide world of experiences out there…. The trick is to find a niche that matches your skill set and available market."Sweet dreams are made if this. Who am I to disagree."
Wearing a mask isn't that different from wearing a gag if that's your niche. Not my idea of a good time.
I think you are being a bit of a drama queen here. Its not like a piece of material is like a leather ball gag gimp mask . You can google that if you wish !Splat!
Wearing a mask isn't that different from wearing a gag if that's your niche. Not my idea of a good time.
Undoubtedly there are teenage boys in the world today who have developed mask fetishes over the past year.
Rob, my heart goes out to that lady you talked to in Mexico. What a sad life. I wish the social response was "what can we do to educate people, to give people opportunities to work, how can we help others achieve what we have already?" and not "yeah, let's legalize their despair, their abuse, their lack of opportunity." What a sad world we live in, that folks are titillated by the despair of others.
Jane v2.0
9-20-21, 11:37am
People can be helped without continuing to criminalize prostitution.
Perhaps relevant passage I came across today, in Amia Srinivasan’s “The Right To Sex”, an included essay she wrote for The London Review Of Books:
Since the 1980s, the wind has been behind a feminism which takes desire for the most part as given – your desire takes the shape that it takes – and which insists that acting on that desire is morally constrained only by the boundaries of consent. Sex is no longer morally problematic or unproblematic: it is instead merely wanted or unwanted. In this sense, the norms of sex are like the norms of capitalist free exchange. What matters is not what conditions give rise to the dynamics of supply and demand – why some people need to sell their labour while others buy it – but only that both buyer and seller have agreed to the transfer. It would be too easy, though, to say that sex positivity represents the co-option of feminism by liberalism. Generations of feminists and gay and lesbian activists have fought hard to free sex from shame, stigma, coercion, abuse and unwanted pain. It has been essential to this project to stress that there are limits to what can be understood about sex from the outside, that sexual acts can have private meanings that cannot be grasped from a public perspective, that there are times when we must take it on trust that a particular instance of sex is OK, even when we can’t imagine how it could be. Thus feminism finds itself not only questioning the liberal distinction between the public and the private, but also insisting on it.
Yet it would be disingenuous to make nothing of the convergence, however unintentional, between sex positivity and liberalism in their shared reluctance to interrogate the formation of our desires. Third and fourth-wave feminists are right to say, for example, that sex work is work, and can be better work than the menial labour undertaken by most women. And they are right to say that what sex workers need are legal and material protections, safety and security, not rescue or rehabilitation. But to understand what sort of work sex work is – just what physical and psychical acts are being bought and sold, and why it is overwhelmingly women who do it, and overwhelmingly men who pay for it – surely we have to say something about the political formation of male desire. And surely there will be similar things to say about other forms of women’s work: teaching, nursing, caring, mothering. To say that sex work is ‘just work’ is to forget that all work – men’s work, women’s work – is never just work: it is also sexed.
Original article:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v40/n06/amia-srinivasan/does-anyone-have-the-right-to-sex
"Third and fourth-wave feminists are right to say, for example, that sex work is work, and can be better work than the menial labour undertaken by most women. And they are right to say that what sex workers need are legal and material protections, safety and security, not rescue or rehabilitation."
This resonates with me; I was so ashamed of the dumb, menial job I worked my way through college with, I remember telling some guy I met that I was a prostitute...
iris lilies
9-23-21, 9:40am
"Third and fourth-wave feminists are right to say, for example, that sex work is work, and can be better work than the menial labour undertaken by most women. And they are right to say that what sex workers need are legal and material protections, safety and security, not rescue or rehabilitation."
This resonates with me; I was so ashamed of the dumb, menial job I worked my way through college with, I remember telling some guy I met that I was a prostitute...
I don’t know, “legal and material protections” gets into heavy-handed nanny government stuff. Some regulation is ok with me, but along with that goes taxation. While we live in the capitalist world and not the libertarian ideal, taxing our work is an unpleasant necessity.
Presumably if prostitution was legal then prostitutes would be paying tax on that income, either by withholding if paid on a w-2 or with the same way that any other freelance worker pays taxes. In that case then sure, they should get the same protections that every other worker gets. I assume that is what happens in nevada.
Teacher Terry
9-23-21, 2:34pm
When we got someone new right out of graduate school we never mentioned that prostitution was legal. Then during the interview when the evaluator would have a sex worker for a client they would come out of there beat red after inquiring about job duties. We also had clients that had made good money being in charge of the workers, arranging travel for the boss, etc. It was always a big letdown when faced with what regular jobs paid.
dado potato
9-24-21, 2:28pm
In rural Nevada it’s legal and safe because the women have frequent health checks.
There are 7 mainly rural counties in NV where prostitution in licensed brothels is legal. During the COVID-19 emergency the Governor of NV closed the brothels, but they were reopened with strict COVID-19 Protocols (see link). I understand that the closure sidelined about 500 employees and independent contractors of the brothels, but they were not eligible for unemployment benefits due to the stigma associated with sexwork.
http://nevadabrothelassociation.com/Covid-19-safety-measures
happystuff
9-25-21, 10:35am
There are 7 mainly rural counties in NV where prostitution in licensed brothels is legal. During the COVID-19 emergency the Governor of NV closed the brothels, but they were reopened with strict COVID-19 Protocols (see link). I understand that the closure sidelined about 500 employees and independent contractors of the brothels, but they were not eligible for unemployment benefits due to the stigma associated with sexwork.
http://nevadabrothelassociation.com/Covid-19-safety-measures
I admit to not knowing a lot about the laws/rules regarding legal prostitution, but I would think if it were a legitimate business - with payroll, etc - there would be taxes withheld, including unemployment. This should then make them eligible to claim unemployment benefits, wouldn't it?
dado potato
9-25-21, 5:32pm
I am in the same boat. All I know about this topic is what I read in the newspapers.
It has been a bone of contention in Nevada whether legal sex workers should be regarded as independent contractors, as brothel owners prefer... or as employees, as the Nevada Department of Employment seems to prefer. There was some litigation on this question prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, but I do not know if there has been a court decision.
As independent contractors, sex workers would not be subject to payroll deductions for unemployment benefits.
An incredible safety net was enacted by the CARES Act. But the law specifically excludes businesses that provide products or performances of a "prurient sexual nature".
Likewise, the Small Business Administration's Economic Injury Disaster Loan Program requires applicants to check a box confirming that they do not put on "live performances of a prurient sexual nature or sell products or services of a prurient sexual nature".
ToomuchStuff
9-25-21, 6:55pm
It has been a bone of contention in Nevada whether legal sex workers should be regarded as independent contractors, as brothel owners prefer... or as employees, as the Nevada Department of Employment seems to prefer. There was some litigation on this question prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, but I do not know if there has been a court decision.
As independent contractors, sex workers would not be subject to payroll deductions for unemployment benefits.
Realistically, both.
Brothels could have regular employees, while at the same time, having independent contractors, such as adult stars, etc. I would assume that is the way strip clubs operate. (local regular dancers and high end talent)
I have always reported my income from this source, generally as “consulting services”’, and properly paid taxes due. Many sexworkers I know do the same, even though this can be a very cash-oriented business. There are of course some upsides to filing.
I know someone who specializes in accounting services for the profession, and I would recommend them highly:
https://www.taxdomme.com/
I have a friend who makes porn videos for a niche kink. Not because he needs the money but because he’s an exhibitionist who enjoys the attention. (He’s got a well paying day job.). His videos are on a site similar to onlyfans. Every year the site sends him a 1099 and he dutifully pays his taxes on the income.
I have a friend who makes porn videos for a niche kink. Not because he needs the money but because he’s an exhibitionist who enjoys the attention. (He’s got a well paying day job.). His videos are on a site similar to onlyfans. Every year the site sends him a 1099 and he dutifully pays his taxes on the income.
Throw off your chains and seize the means of production!
Throw off your chains and seize the means of production!
Apparently you've seen his videos! :~)
Throw off your chains and seize the means of production!
Just filed my taxes and properly reported the relevant income. Ka-ching, even with covid. Thank goodness I had some offsetting paper losses elsewhere, or Alan might not have had to pay for my healthcare again :-)
Just filed my taxes and properly reported the relevant income. Ka-ching, even with covid. Thank goodness I had some offsetting paper losses elsewhere, or Alan might not have had to pay for my healthcare again :-)
I see the Administration is proposing to tax unrealized gains at 20%. You would basically be hit with an estate tax without going to the trouble of dying.
The “Billionaires’ Minimum Income Tax” would kick in at $100 million of however the government reckons net worth (guess that sounded better than “the Decibillionaires Tax”). Of course, at the current rate of inflation, and with some creative valuation we may soon see a significant increase in unacceptably wealthy citizens needing to be shorn of their “fair share”.
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