View Full Version : How did all those Haitians get to the southern border?
flowerseverywhere
9-21-21, 9:28am
That question strikes me unusual as there has been no news where anyone is asking the question. Many are being flown back to Haiti yet came up from Chili or other south American countries. Any ideas?
It does seem awfully fishy, doesn't it? Something to make the current prez look bad? Why would Mexico and other countries allow them to stream through? The ones interviewed on TV spoke fluent Spanish so they must have lived south for many years. And then showing a Texas Ranger herding people like cattle with his bull whip. What a show the media brings us!
Why would Mexico and other countries allow them to stream through?
Why not? They do that all the time with people from Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador.
According to interviews with some of the immigrants currently in Del Rio it appears Mexico had been holding them in one of their southern states as they filtered into Mexico from Central and South American countries after seeking or being granted legitimate asylum in those countries but then deciding to move north for economic reasons. After being detained in Mexico for months in some cases they were suddenly released and invited to head further north during the 3 day holiday period celebrating Mexico's Independence Week. The crossing point at Del Rio seems to have been chosen, or perhaps suggested, since the cartels in that area were not actively demanding fees or "taxes" prior to being allowed to walk across the border. Why the Huge Illegal Alien Camp Formed in Del Rio (cis.org) (https://cis.org/Bensman/Why-Huge-Illegal-Alien-Camp-Formed-Del-Rio)
Other sources have suggested that since the Biden administration has failed to pony up money it has promised Mexico in exchange for helping manage the influx of all immigrants, the Mexican government decided to send the administration a message that could not be ignored. I think there may be something to this judging from our government's efforts to hide the enormity of the problem from the public.
gimmethesimplelife
9-21-21, 7:25pm
I read about Border Patrol agents whipping Haitian migrants with some kind of lasso and I just don't understand. I can accept not admitting these migrants but whipping these people? I'm glad I only worked four hours today - sent home early to minimize OT.
I'm not ashamed to admit this, for the first time in I don't know how long, I cried. I tried to put myself in these migrants shoes and I couldn't get past crying. Why is this country like this and why is it acceptable for Border agents to assualt migrants? Today I just don't understand what I'm doing here as I doubt these agents will face consequences.
It's true that Austria not all that long ago was guilty of much worse. Granted and given. I just don't understand why this once land of refuge has had to do a 180 and become a nation in which it is supposed to be acceptable to assault migrants? I'll end here as I'm getting very worked up over this. Rob
Guess we can tell who has never ridden a horse western style. I just watched the video. There was no whip. The long trailing pieces of leather are the ends of the reins.
Figured it was probably better to delete the rest.
But illegals are illegals. 10K I heard. That’s an invasion.
Media called them bull whips.
Media called them bull whips.
The media. Yeah right.
gimmethesimplelife
9-22-21, 2:28am
As I read more about this situation, one thing is clear to me - what is the Biden Administration's real stance on migrants and immigration? I understand that many Haitians have been flown back to Haiti. Who gets in as a migrant and who does not and what are the qualifying criteria? Will a path to citizenship emerge, or will more planeloads of would be migrants take off for the friendly skies? I find myself confused on this Administration's stances towards migrants and immigration after photos and an in person account have shown up on the Internet.
Have we moved beyond the DJT years on this issue? Rob
Came back to add that I am likely to be more sensitive to this issue than most as my Mother is an immigrant, as is SO. Though the composition of my neighborhood is changing - I still live in an area with many immigrants. I guess what I am trying to say is that I have more immigrants in my life than most Caucasian folks do - I'm not saying this is good or bad, either. I am making no judgement here - my life just is this way. Long winded point? This is a supercharged issue for me. Rob
Back in the 70's and 80's Cuban boat people were welcomed and Haitian boat people were turned away and badmouthed as dirty, carrying AIDS, etc. So the discrepancy you note Rob is longstanding and has to do with politics. Many economic refugees - and in the case of the Marielitos, criminals - since Castro emptied the jails to get rid of them - were welcomed because Cuba is a communist country whereas Haiti is not, never mind the problems our centuries long meddling in Haiti, including by the Clinton Foundation, has caused.
ETA Because of the Clinton Foundation some Haitians supported Trump only to have him later refer to their homeland as a s***hole country.
Guess we can tell who has never ridden a horse western style. I just watched the video. There was no whip. The long trailing pieces of leather are the ends of the reins.
That’s what it looked like to me, and I have read the same thing in a couple of places, but the whip story seems to be irresistible.
As Groucho said, “Who are you going to believe: me or your lying eyes?”
iris lilies
9-22-21, 8:04am
That’s what it looked like to me, and I have read the same thing in a couple of places, but the whip story seems to be irresistible.
As Groucho said, “Who are you going to believe: me or your lying eyes?”
People like being upset.
The irony is that we were all immigrants once.
I am not much of a horseman, but I went to high school at a boarding school with an active cattle ranch on the plains of Colorado, and riding and various competitions were part of the curriculum.
I just went and found several of the videos of the “horrific” incident. And looked at them carefully.
I did not see any whips used, just long reins. And I saw the reins being twirled in a circular motion to put up a barrier between the horse and the people on the ground. (There are all sorts of reasons for this that should be obvious to anyone who has ridden outside of a petting zoo).
I did not see humans as the directed target of this technique.
This is a manufactured controversy, and the people making much of it either know nothing about horses, or are selling you something.
I am not much of a horseman, but I went to high school at a boarding school with an active cattle ranch on the plains of Colorado, and riding and various competitions were part of the curriculum.
I just went and found several of the videos of the “horrific” incident. And looked at them carefully.
I did not see any whips used, just long reins. And I saw the reins being twirled in a circular motion to put up a barrier between the horse and the people on the ground. (There are all sorts of reasons for this that should be obvious to anyone who has ridden outside of a petting zoo).
I did not see humans as the directed target of this technique.
This is a manufactured controversy, and the people making much of it either know nothing about horses, or are selling you something.
I’m with Bae.
flowerseverywhere
9-22-21, 11:27am
I agree the whip story is hysteria. But what if he was trying to defend himself? Seeing the assaults in both the BLM and January 6 riots their lives can be taken or they can be badly hurt. A few bad apples featured on the news does not reflect our law enforcement in general. Border patrol, like Police find themselves working in dangerous and sometimes life threatening situations.
Alan's article was interesting but the stories are anti-Biden. Like CNN is anti-Trump. I found no similar accounts elsewhere which does not necessarily mean they are untrue.
And Rob, they were returned to Haiti because that is the country they have passports or citizenship in. It is truly horrible, as Haiti is a mess, but what do we have immigration laws for if anyone who decides to bypasses the legal way to enter a country? Some had jobs in places south America and left them.
I am not against legal immigration at all, but we haven't gotten the pandemic under control by any means and many of our hospitals are overflowing. We need to focus on getting our house in order, deal with the refugees from Afghanistan who helped us and deal with the people who have the proper paperwork and permission first.
GeorgeParker
9-22-21, 11:44am
The media called them bull whips.WHICH media? WHOSE media? WHO told the media they were bull whips? Most of the time the media person speaking or writing about a recent news event doesn't actually know anything about what happened, they're just repeating what some reporter or news source told them.
Teacher Terry
9-22-21, 2:16pm
It’s heartbreaking but we can’t take in all the poor people from other countries. As flowers said we have to prioritize.
iris lilies
9-22-21, 3:05pm
I would like to see US agents in Afghanistan helped beyond everybody who is currently in line for immigration entrance.agreed.
So now we're the society that herds people as if they were farm animals?
So now we're the society that herds people as if they were farm animals?
Yep. And our public health goal is herd immunity.
flowerseverywhere
9-22-21, 3:34pm
So now we're the society that herds people as if they were farm animals?
how should we handle 14,000 or so people who want to enter this border crossing, plus all the afghans, people in refugee camps, people crossing other border areas and flying in on planes and overstating their visas? How do they get food, shelter, sanitation, get their kids into school, get jobs etc?
So now we're the society that herds people as if they were farm animals?
You should tell them how dreadful we are. Maybe they’ll stop trying to infiltrate our borders.
So now we're the society that herds people as if they were farm animals?
Mounted units for crowd control are not a new thing.
You should tell them how dreadful we are. Maybe they’ll stop trying to infiltrate our borders.
They probably figured that out without my help.
how should we handle 14,000 or so people who want to enter this border crossing, plus all the afghans, people in refugee camps, people crossing other border areas and flying in on planes and overstating their visas? How do they get food, shelter, sanitation, get their kids into school, get jobs etc?
Not to mention...dealing with the thousands of homeless citizens living on the streets of this country.
I read a local story of a church that will be helping Afghans resettle locally. It sounded very kind-hearted as they will assign volunteers to each family and help them find shelter, learn English, set up schooling, accompany them to the grocery and TRY to help them understand our own peculiar culture.
iris lilies
9-22-21, 6:18pm
You should tell them how dreadful we are. Maybe they’ll stop trying to infiltrate our borders.
Rob already tried that.
boss mare
9-22-21, 10:35pm
I am not much of a horseman, but I went to high school at a boarding school with an active cattle ranch on the plains of Colorado, and riding and various competitions were part of the curriculum.
I just went and found several of the videos of the “horrific” incident. And looked at them carefully.
I did not see any whips used, just long reins. And I saw the reins being twirled in a circular motion to put up a barrier between the horse and the people on the ground. (There are all sorts of reasons for this that should be obvious to anyone who has ridden outside of a petting zoo).
I did not see humans as the directed target of this technique.
This is a manufactured controversy, and the people making much of it either know nothing about horses, or are selling you something.
The man on the chestnut horse is riding with split reins and a snaffle bit. In one picture he reaching over and pulling the bit through the horse's mouth ( not a good thing) Its hard to explain but he is riding with them crossed over each other . when he is leaning over with the man with the groceries, the one side is too tight on the one side, causing the bit to be pulled through the horses mouth. That leaves alot of slack one the other side to flop and fly around ( the rein that looks like its being used to whip) In the video, it looks' like he is twirling the ends of the reins at some one.
gimmethesimplelife
9-22-21, 11:14pm
Rob already tried that.Excuse me? No comprende. Rob
iris lilies
9-23-21, 7:50am
Excuse me? No comprende. Rob
I didnt mean this literally. Your ruminations about the United States leak out into the vast internet audience, informing all including incoming migrants about the big badness of the U.S. Why, just by carrying forward the “we whip illegal immigrants” you have done a job here.
I see now that entities hostile to the United States like the CCP and Maxine Waters are linking the whip mirage to slavery.
And now the Biden administration is prohibiting the use of horses by the Border Patrol. No information yet on whether agents will be required to tie at least one hand behind their backs.
Teacher Terry
9-23-21, 3:46pm
The border patrol is probably the least of my worries as they have other resources I am sure.
The border patrol is probably the least of my worries as they have other resources I am sure.
But why should they be constrained to some second-best alternative to fulfill their mission just because because certain parties either didn’t understand what they were seeing or chose to push a bogus narrative for reasons of their own?
It’s going to get more difficult to recruit people to do this difficult and sometimes dangerous job under a commander so lacking in moral and intellectual courage that he will throw them under the bus over a false narrative?
But why should they be constrained to some second-best alternative to fulfill their mission just because because certain parties either didn’t understand what they were seeing or chose to push a bogus narrative for reasons of their own?
It’s going to get more difficult to recruit people to do this difficult and sometimes dangerous job under a commander so lacking in moral and intellectual courage that he will throw them under the bus over a false narrative?
The Dems don’t give a shit because they all act like they want an open border anyway. Plus the BP is law enforcement and that makes them scum of the earth.
gimmethesimplelife
9-23-21, 7:03pm
And now the Biden administration is prohibiting the use of horses by the Border Patrol. No information yet on whether agents will be required to tie at least one hand behind their backs.Conservatives prepare to be stunned. Though I'm eternally grateful DJT was not reelected - I'm less than pleased as to the current handling of the border. It seems to be a mess that grows and grows, much like subdivisions in the Westside of Phoenix.
I wish there was a concrete plan - what we have now seems to encourage mass migration and drama ala the 10K Haitians on the Texas border. This can't keep going on endlessly. Conservatives are right when they say resources are finite. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-23-21, 7:09pm
And now the Biden administration is prohibiting the use of horses by the Border Patrol. No information yet on whether agents will be required to tie at least one hand behind their backs.
The Dems don’t give a shit because they all act like they want an open border anyway. Plus the BP is law enforcement and that makes them scum of the earth.I can tell you there have been large payouts in litigation against US CBP in the Nogales sector. Though I applaud when they find hard drugs and keep them from hitting the streets, they need to knuckle under to the rule of law, too - they are far from angels and given their deep pockets and utter disregard for the law, they have set themselves up to be a retirement plan for their victims.
Is this the America we want? Can we not.do better? I'm thinking we need to end preference for ex military. That type of thinking only seems to lead to successful litigation against US CBP. Rob
I can tell you there have been large payouts in litigation against US CBP in the Nogales sector. Though I applaud when they find hard drugs and keep them from hitting the streets, they need to knuckle under to the rule of law, too - they are far from angels and given their deep pockets and utter disregard for the law, they have set themselves up to be a retirement plan for their victims.
Is this the America we want? Can we not.do better? I'm thinking we need to end preference for ex military. That type of thinking only seems to lead to successful litigation against US CBP. Rob
Well, I don’t agree with your distasteful stereotyping of cops and the military, but apparently the President is willing to work with it. He seems to be pulling a Captain Renault regarding the latest border fiasco. He’s shocked, shocked that his troops down there are intercepting people violating the border so strenuously, and will punish them to the full extent the media will demand.
Rob’s beloved MX wouldn’t allow 10K to just waltz in from the US side. Yet we’re supposed to let everyone in.
I don't know anyone who believes an open border is a workable solution, but there are international rules covering refugees. Our immigration policy was broken years ago, and compounded by the perverse beliefs of Stephen Miller, who hates all immigrants, even though he's descended from one--we could and should take in many more than our current quotas allow, IMO. Sadly, the world situation is creating new groups of the stateless and persecuted on a near-daily basis. We should also do what we can to mitigate this worldwide disruption. I don't envy President Biden; his plate is full.
They’ve been in other countries for how long? Why do we have to take them? They were in other countries. Could have stayed there. I’m of the opinion MX didn’t get whatever they wanted from Biden and so helped the Haitians get to the southern border.
They’ve been in other countries for how long? Why do we have to take them? They were in other countries. Could have stayed there. I’m of the opinion MX didn’t get whatever they wanted from Biden and so helped the Haitians get to the southern border.
I can see why he would want to dump this on the VP.
It’s a shame we don’t have a lot of unfilled jobs that these people could help fill.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-21, 6:41pm
Do we really have a long term lot of unfilled jobs or do we have a short-mid term disruption of markets (including the labor market, but really the whole supply chain). I think it's the latter.
Do more people somewhere need more goods/services or do they just take jobs without then buying stuff? The last time we had a large scale immigration to a part of this country, Miami post Mariel boat lift, the economy boomed into an economic powerhouse over the years. The number of people currently at our southern border is miniscule in comparison, assuming that we help them spread out around the country.
The number of people currently at our southern border is miniscule in comparison, assuming that we help them spread out around the country.
That may be currently true but I understand that the number of people showing up at the border this fiscal year is higher than the population of 11 of our states as well as Washington DC. That's a crap load of people!
France should be taking in the Haitians and offering them reparations.
That may be currently true but I understand that the number of people showing up at the border this fiscal year is higher than the population of 11 of our states as well as Washington DC. That's a crap load of people!
I wonder how those numbers compare to previous eras. Did we run out of jobs for people when Ellis island was operating at it’s peak? Were the immigrants that came through Ellis island good for the country or a burden? And is there reason to believe that current immigrants would be more or less of a burden than those that came through Ellis island?
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-21, 9:32pm
What about infrastructure? Do we having enough housing? Freeways? Water? We don't of course now.
I wonder how those numbers compare to previous eras. Did we run out of jobs for people when Ellis island was operating at it’s peak? Were the immigrants that came through Ellis island good for the country or a burden? And is there reason to believe that current immigrants would be more or less of a burden than those that came through Ellis island?
The peak years of Ellis Island were 1892 to 1924.
There was room in the country with free land offered through the Homestead Act. Most land was granted between 1862 and 1934.
The land became available due to the Plains Wars from the 1850's through Wounded Knee in 1890.
Do you really want to claim this legacy of genocide as a model?
I wonder how those numbers compare to previous eras. Good question. I've read that the busiest year during the Ellis Island era was 1907 when just over one million immigrants were processed. I think we're currently taking that amount on an annual basis, at least over the past decade or so.
Did we run out of jobs for people when Ellis island was operating at it’s peak? I would think not since the number of jobs in any country is not static and it seems to me that more people will create more jobs, I guess the question is whether job creation can/will equal new arrivals.
Were the immigrants that came through Ellis island good for the country or a burden? And is there reason to believe that current immigrants would be more or less of a burden than those that came through Ellis island?I suppose historically a little of both in the short term and probably leaning to the positive side over time. But I think the burden level is now higher since social safety networks funded by the public were practically non-existent during the Ellis Island days but are now a staple, depended upon by an ever increasing percentage of current citizens before even taking immigrants into account. I doubt that situation is sustainable in the long run.
From what I've seen, no wave of immigrants to this country, historically, has been a liability. Unless you're Pat Buchanan, and see anyone not from Western Europe as some kind of invader. I guess that's a popular theme among some. "Send me your eager, your healthy, your Norwegians..." It probably wouldn't be that hard to modify the Statue of Liberty. :welcome:
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-21, 9:39pm
By the by that I think immigration may become an *inevitable* thing (the world is just in so much chaos, climate chaos very much included), but that's different than thinking it's nothing but a good thing. Yea we can't even house people already in the U.S., and infrastucture doesn't even meet current population.
The job thing though: can't we just allow working people in this country to have a break and have decent job search and maybe job conditions for what the first time since 2008 at least. For how many years upon years (the fallout of 2008 was a long one, unemployment stayed high for years) has it been an employers market, and if for like 6 months it's an employees market, a very short period of time, 6 months ago we scarcely had a vaccine, it's suddenly the end of the world.
GeorgeParker
9-24-21, 10:00pm
@Alan: You should also include in your calculation the high death rate among all poor people, especially immigrants crowded into big city tenement slums. Prior to antibiotics and vaccines, death was rampant in those crowded conditions with often poor ventilation, poor sanitation, and poor nutrition. (not that conditions were all that much better where the immigrants came from) And a lot of the employment immigrants were forced to accept was very dangerous -- sweatshops like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory, digging subway tunnels, building railroads or canals with no work-safety regulations, operating dangerous machines with no safety guards on them.... But just plain getting sick or injured and dying from infection was probably the biggest killer iirc. Life was cheap then, especially if you were poor.
As long as rich factory owners and industrialists were able to obtain enough raw materials to increase production and enough places to sell what they produced at a good price, they were happy to have a steady supply of new immigrants coming in to replace the ones who died off or somehow managed to escape by going out west where people were scarce.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-21, 10:04pm
@Alan: You should also include in your calculation the high death rate among all poor people, especially immigrants crowded into big city tenement slums. Prior to antibiotics and vaccines, death was rampant in those crowded conditions with often poor ventilation, poor sanitation, and poor nutrition. (not that conditions were all that much better where the immigrants came from)
probably much of what happened less than a year ago with covid, who can doubt it hit hard poor, immigrants, living in extremely crowded conditions. it did not only hit them, I mean it was an pandemic, but disproportionately.
@Alan: You should also include in your calculation the high death rate among all poor people...I think I was ruminating rather than calculating and I'm pretty well acquainted with the perils of the poor, the one thing my family consistently excelled at from the early 1700's through the end of the 1900's was remaining poor against all odds.
GeorgeParker
9-24-21, 10:16pm
"Send me your eager, your healthy, your Norwegians..." It probably wouldn't be that hard to modify the Statue of Liberty.That poem was written in 1883 during a campaign to raise money for the construction of a pedestal for the Statue of Liberty. It wasn't cast in bronze and attached to the statue's pedestal until 1903. And BTW the name of the statue is "Liberty Enlightening the World" not "Liberty Inviting All The Unwanted People In The World To Come Here". The original concept of the statue was that the shining example of what liberty had created in America and France would enlighten the rest of the world and cause other nations to throw off their oppressive royalty in favor of freedom and democracy.
GeorgeParker
9-24-21, 10:26pm
I think I was ruminating rather than calculating...I was just throwing another log on the fire. ;)
iris lilies
9-24-21, 10:37pm
I wonder how those numbers compare to previous eras. Did we run out of jobs for people when Ellis island was operating at it’s peak? Were the immigrants that came through Ellis island good for the country or a burden? And is there reason to believe that current immigrants would be more or less of a burden than those that came through Ellis island?
What were the EBT allotments, TANF payments, Section 8 voucher requirements, etc back then? I forget what the taxpayers were funding back in the day.
iris lilies
9-24-21, 10:40pm
From what I've seen, no wave of immigrants to this country, historically, has been a liability. Unless you're Pat Buchanan, and see anyone not from Western Europe as some kind of invader. I guess that's a popular theme among some. "Send me your eager, your healthy, your Norwegians..." It probably wouldn't be that hard to modify the Statue of Liberty. :welcome:
Will you be welcoming unlimited immigrant Covid patients into the overcrowded hospitals in your state?
What about infrastructure? Do we having enough housing? Freeways? Water? We don't of course now.
Good point. We’d probably need even more people to help build that. And those people would buy even more stuff creating yet more jobs. Admittedly they would need to go where there’s enough water. Immigrants can’t likely help with that. But there are plenty of places in the US that have lots of water.
I wonder whether recent immigrants tend to feed themselves by working and buying food or by expecting government handouts. And what would be the likely outcome of allowing a modern wave of low skilled but hungry, eager immigrants. Would they embody the work hard ethos of the past or the ‘suck at the tit of nanny g’ ethos that some think is common of our current citizenry?
iris lilies
9-25-21, 9:15am
I wonder whether recent immigrants tend to feed themselves by working and buying food or by expecting government handouts. And what would be the likely outcome of allowing a modern wave of low skilled but hungry, eager immigrants. Would they embody the work hard ethos of the past or the ‘suck at the tit of nanny g’ ethos that some think is common of our current citizenry?
I see your recent posts as talking about the theoretical idea of new immigrants, so answering in that context, YES! This country needs new immigrant blood, a steady supply of it, it is a GOOD thing. Yes. The immediate example I see is a influx of Bosnians here in St. Louis who have done a bang up job in assimilating over the past 20-30 years.
But unplanned, unsupported emergency groups of immigrants place huge strains on social systems.
For unplanned, unsupported, emergency groups of people who must be cared for until they are on their feet to be self sufficient, I vote for putting taxpayer resources towards displaced Afghanis over Haitians and Nicaraguans and etc from South of our border.
Of course you, jp, can always sponsor a needy Haitian family, move them into your home, sign the documents that make you financially responsible for them, etc. What are you doing in that area, I mean, besides, paying income tax into a social services support system like the rest of us? If it is a major focus for you I just want you to know there is so much you can do to work in the forefront of immigrant settlement services.
IL, agreed with that! An Afghani community already exists here in the Chicago area, so that will help the newcomers, the first of whom arrived within the past week or two, I think.
I’m just spitballing ideas here. So many people are so worried about The Border (tm) that It got me wondering what it is that we’re so concerned about with immigrants. Sure, there needs to be some limit and obviously we probably don’t want to let in a lot of old fogies. But young healthy people who want to work and build a better life for themselves? We should be letting a lot more in than we currently do. On top of everything else having a lot of new young workers paying into social security and Medicare would be a good thing.
As for the current variants and Afghans, we didn’t plan for the flood of Cubans 40 years ago either but that worked itself out just fine. Why would we expect any different today?
iris lilies
9-25-21, 10:17am
I’m just spitballing ideas here. So many people are so worried about The Border (tm) that It got me wondering what it is that we’re so concerned about with immigrants. Sure, there needs to be some limit and obviously we probably don’t want to let in a lot of old fogies. But young healthy people who want to work and build a better life for themselves? We should be letting a lot more in than we currently do. On top of everything else having a lot of new young workers paying into social security and Medicare would be a good thing.
As for the current variants and Afghans, we didn’t plan for the flood of Cubans 40 years ago either but that worked itself out just fine. Why would we expect any different today?
ahhh, “just spitballing ideas here” well then, carry on.
There appears to be no shortage of “ideas” so…
obviously we probably don’t want to let in a lot of old fogies. But young healthy people who want to work and build a better life for themselves? We should be letting a lot more in than we currently do. On top of everything else having a lot of new young workers paying into social security and Medicare.
What? Taxpaying members of society with years ahead of them have more value than old fogeys? You argued the opposite regarding covid - that everyone should wear masks forever because a predominantly elderly group of people might get sick or die of covid, vs getting sick and dying of the flu or something else.
That may be currently true but I understand that the number of people showing up at the border this fiscal year is higher than the population of 11 of our states as well as Washington DC. That's a crap load of people!
This article says 2 million--highest since 2006--so those must be some seriously unpopulated states. And only a fraction of those are getting in.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/politics/migrants-us-southern-border/index.html
I think before you retreat to the safer and more familiar ground of accusing people you disagree with of racism, you must first actually control your borders. Then you can argue over the quantity and shading of who you let in and have it mean something.
I also think think it distracts from that central issue, as the Administration is doing, by scapegoating the Border Patrol.
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-21, 12:36pm
I think borders are controlled (talk of not controlling them has little impact on actual policy), as we don't allow everyone who would want to come here too so that indicates some degree of control. But in the loose way they have always been in the U.S. in order to allow a lot of undocumented low wage labor in a country built on a great deal of low wage labor all around. It's a "look the other way" thing. However, I don't think population growth is good.
I think borders are controlled (talk of not controlling them has little impact on actual policy), as we don't allow everyone who would want to come here too so that indicates some degree of control. But in the loose way they have always been in the U.S. in order to allow a lot of undocumented low wage labor in a country built on a great deal of low wage labor all around. It's a "look the other way" thing. However, I don't think population growth is good.
Population growth, on a global scale, is inevitable for now--but my take on it is that a little growth, or at least maintaining the population, is a sign of national health. I believe if it weren't for immigration, we'd be losing population, because large families are a thing of the past.
What? Taxpaying members of society with years ahead of them have more value than old fogeys? You argued the opposite regarding covid - that everyone should wear masks forever because a predominantly elderly group of people might get sick or die of covid, vs getting sick and dying of the flu or something else.
How exactly is people dying the same as people staying in another country?
How exactly is people dying the same as people staying in another country?
With one issue you privilege the old over the young. With the other you denigrate the old as "fogeys" and favor the young. Are you ageist or not?
ahhh, “just spitballing ideas here” well then, carry on.
There appears to be no shortage of “ideas” so…
What can I say? This is a discussion board. People are expressing concern about these people who want to come to this country. As part of that discussion I attempted to point out that it might not actually be a bad thing. Instead of being refuted with facts about why immigrants are in fact bad for the country I get the suggestion that if I love immigrants so much I should invite them all to come live with me.
iris lilies
9-25-21, 2:16pm
What can I say? This is a discussion board. People are expressing concern about these people who want to come to this country. As part of that discussion I attempted to point out that it might not actually be a bad thing. Instead of being refuted with facts about why immigrants are in fact bad for the country I get the suggestion that if I love immigrants so much I should invite them all to come live with me.
not what I said.
1. I iterated “immigrants are good”.
2. I suggest you help ONE immigrant in your targeted area of concern. I will admit that inviting them into your home to live is a bit much, but truly, there are settlement services you COULD help in some way beyond the public trough we all contribute to.
Instead of being refuted with facts about why immigrants are in fact bad for the country I get the suggestion that if I love immigrants so much I should invite them all to come live with me.
I’ve heard that same “argument” against the pro-life position.
there are settlement services you COULD help in some way beyond the public trough we all contribute to.
That’s a fantastic idea. Thank you!
Years ago I didn’t know what to get SO for Christmas (he buys everything he wants as soon as the idea pops in his head). So I decided to stop buying any gifts and instead came up with a list of ten charities that I felt did good work and donated the money to them instead. And got the added benefit that my employer (both my previous one and now my current one) match charitable contributions. And I share the list with anyone who might be inclined to buy me a Christmas gift and ask that instead they pick one of my charities that they also care about and send them a gift instead Ten was a nice round number but there’s no reason it couldn’t be eleven.
iris lilies
9-25-21, 4:07pm
That’s a fantastic idea. Thank you!
Years ago I didn’t know what to get SO for Christmas (he buys everything he wants as soon as the idea pops in his head). So I decided to stop buying any gifts and instead came up with a list of ten charities that I felt did good work and donated the money to them instead. And got the added benefit that my employer (both my previous one and now my current one) match charitable contributions. And I share the list with anyone who might be inclined to buy me a Christmas gift and ask that instead they pick one of my charities that they also care about and send them a gift instead Ten was a nice round number but there’s no reason it couldn’t be eleven.
Yes, that is a good idea. We have The International Institute here, close to where I live. I dont know who in recent past they have been helping, but I know they have geared up for Afghan refugees beginning last month. They sponsor the best outdoor festival in St.Louis each year with food booths of many world cuisines and dancers.
flowerseverywhere
9-27-21, 6:34am
I’ve been reading thousands have been released into the US effectively cutting the line in front of refugees in camps and people who are going through the legal process outside the country. I can also see this as encouragement for more to do so. And going to areas where the virus is already overwhelming hospitals who are using crisis care standards to prioritize who to treat. A totally grim situation
Has anyone been to the Rio Grand border? We spent several weeks there one year in our RV. There are numerous cross over points or miles and miles across nothing but ranch and public lands. Close to impossible to build a wall as it would cut off river access for the cows where people have lived for many generations. Which is why we have border patrol using horses.
the way this is going I can’t see a way forward for the Democrats to hold any power going forward.
iris lilies
9-27-21, 8:16am
I’ve been reading thousands have been released into the US effectively cutting the line in front of refugees in camps and people who are going through the legal process outside the country. I can also see this as encouragement for more to do so. And going to areas where the virus is already overwhelming hospitals who are using crisis care standards to prioritize who to treat. A totally grim situation
Has anyone been to the Rio Grand border? We spent several weeks there one year in our RV. There are numerous cross over points or miles and miles across nothing but ranch and public lands. Close to impossible to build a wall as it would cut off river access for the cows where people have lived for many generations. Which is why we have border patrol using horses.
the way this is going I can’t see a way forward for the Democrats to hold any power going forward.
Democrats will prevail, never fear.
Democrats will prevail, never fear.
I think at this point, it’s about even odds on that. I think the plan was to keep the public focus on Trump as an “existential threat to our democracy” and label Covid as a sort of red state disease. But other things keep turning up that draw attention to issues the party would prefer to keep out of the public consciousness.
After relentlessly demonizing cops for the last few years, the larger, traditionally Democratic cities are seeing a dearth of police and a superabundance of crime.
The increasingly authoritarian posturing about Covid is not playing well in some of their key constituencies.
The bungled pullout from Afghanistan, and subsequent bungled attempts to spin it into a brilliant victory has even traditionally friendly media outlets criticizing the administration.
The sleeping dragon of inflation is beginning to stir.
The crisis at the southern border is not winning them points among either migrant-friendly people or law-and-order types.
Nobody is comparing Biden to FDR anymore, and the razor thin margins in Congress mean even individual members within the party can realistically threaten to stymie their legislative agenda.
I think, or at least hope, that these things will prevent the Democrats from having it all their own way.
I wonder what the borders will look like once climate change really starts rolling?
happystuff
9-27-21, 9:36am
I wonder what the borders will look like once climate change really starts rolling?
Good question. Personally, I also keep wondering what the world will look like due to climate changes, specifically as more and more of the glaciers melt and ocean levels rise.
i.e. Where's Florida?!?! Come visit the Hawaiian Island!
(Disclaimer: Above examples picked for effect, not because of any specific scientific claims that water is definitely rising and will wipe out these specific areas!)
I’ve been reading thousands have been released into the US effectively cutting the line in front of refugees in camps and people who are going through the legal process outside the country.
Over the weekend DHS Secretary Mayorkas said the number was likely 12,000 or perhaps more with an additional 5,000 or so currently being processed.
flowerseverywhere
9-27-21, 11:57am
I heard that this morning. Who thinks this is a good idea? In Live Free and Die Florida our ICU’s have been full for months and elective surgeries have been put off. Many of the other southern states have as well. Who doesn’t think taking care of our immediate life threatening crises is the most important thing? Letting 17,000 unscreened people who have entered illegally in is nutso. If an administration official says it, I imagine we will see many more rushing the border. Border patrol will have to ask people entering illegally to just turn around, politely of course.
flowerseverywhere
9-27-21, 12:03pm
I wonder what the borders will look like once climate change really starts rolling?
I’ve been saying that to my pro amnesty open border friend for years. California, and the southwest have had heat waves and fires. Desert southwest is running out of water. Florida sea level areas are flooding and could soon be underwater and the entire east coast and Gulf of Mexico are subject to hurricanes. No doubt people closer to equator are going to be having a tougher time of it.
when we travelled up the smoky mountains this summer we kept seeing huge houses in developments in the middle of nowhere. I asked around and repeatedly was told California transplants. I have heard the same is happening on Idaho, Wyoming etc. those with means or willing to migrate or die doing it will find a way.
California transplants
We have put in several bids on Texas houses and each time it went to someone from California. They are doing the same here and paying cash for whatever it takes to get in. I think climate migration will be huge in the next decade. And I agree we shouldn't be letting unscreened people in at this time. Priorities...
Teacher Terry
9-27-21, 4:02pm
Californians have been buying property in Reno for decades. I got into a bidding war for my condo and paid 30k over what it was likely to appraise for. I didn’t bother getting one because the owner said not to bid if you didn’t have the cash to make up the difference. 6 months later people are paying 45k more for these condos. It makes you wonder when it’s coming to a end.
frugal-one
9-27-21, 4:37pm
I’ve been reading thousands have been released into the US effectively cutting the line in front of refugees in camps and people who are going through the legal process outside the country. I can also see this as encouragement for more to do so. And going to areas where the virus is already overwhelming hospitals who are using crisis care standards to prioritize who to treat. A totally grim situation
Has anyone been to the Rio Grand border? We spent several weeks there one year in our RV. There are numerous cross over points or miles and miles across nothing but ranch and public lands. Close to impossible to build a wall as it would cut off river access for the cows where people have lived for many generations. Which is why we have border patrol using horses.
the way this is going I can’t see a way forward for the Democrats to hold any power going forward.
That is why a wall was so ridiculous! How many billions did we pay for a redundant wall?
ApatheticNoMore
9-27-21, 4:43pm
Well what do you expect, I see properties posted here that I could pay cash for, after decades of renting one bedroom apartments (so not even cashing out a property, it's not even riding a property ladder, I was born too late to get in on it except if I inherit, unless I did in my 20s *maybe*, but I was 30 before I considered it, and woops too late, property prices are stratospheric. It's way more boring: it's just earning wages, saving money, property is affordable some places for cash, other places with a mortgage, and in CA mostly NOT AT ALL). But my ties are here now, so no. But I have to say Texas is not tempting.
flowerseverywhere
9-28-21, 6:55am
Well what do you expect, I see properties posted here that I could pay cash for, after decades of renting one bedroom apartments (so not even cashing out a property, it's not even riding a property ladder, I was born too late to get in on it except if I inherit, unless I did in my 20s *maybe*, but I was 30 before I considered it, and woops too late, property prices are stratospheric. It's way more boring: it's just earning wages, saving money, property is affordable some places for cash, other places with a mortgage, and in CA mostly NOT AT ALL). But my ties are here now, so no. But I have to say Texas is not tempting.
are you happy and feel like you have a life that you want? Because isn’t that what it’s all about?
I see more people who are angry and so terribly unhappy when if they just calm down and turned off the news hatemongers would realize their life is pretty good and maybe they could turn some of their anger and frustration into good. IrisLillies and JP1 just had a wonderful exchange somewhere about how they try to support charities that are doing good in the world.
flowerseverywhere
9-28-21, 7:06am
I wanted to add I was not attacking you in any way, just musing that we are all different. Some people greatly benefited by real estate, education, family ties and so on. Others have done everything right but didn’t get a lot of breaks. Yet no matter what your situation you can find peace and happiness. I hope for you that is your situation.
one of the reasons the developed counties around the world are having the problems we are witnessing along our southern borders is we have what everyone in the world wants. The chance to work,people to love and love us, have a roof over our heads, food on the table, and clean h2o coming out of the taps.
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-21, 9:28pm
It’s a shame we don’t have a lot of unfilled jobs that these people could help fill.Good irony! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-21, 9:33pm
France should be taking in the Haitians and offering them reparations.I agree. Or they could what Spain has done and offer eady visas and a fairly quick path to Spanish citizenship for.thosr born in former territories of Spain. Some Venezuelans with money have done this. Rob
clean h2o coming out of the taps.
Seriously?
Flint, Michigan.
Seriously?
Flint, Michigan.
Wait? What? You care about that? The people in flint were going to die anyway so shouldn’t we be like ‘whatever? A bunch of dead people.’ Yawn. That’s your style, right?
Wait? What? You care about that? The people in flint were going to die anyway so shouldn’t we be like ‘whatever? A bunch of dead people.’ Yawn. That’s your style, right?
Or maybe your style when you hop on a plane and jet around the country during the delta surge.
Or maybe your style when you hop on a plane and jet around the country during the delta surge.
If you had the courage of your convictions you’d move to a pro-death state where you could live mask free. I’ve read that currently Alaska is totally your style. Hospitals there are currently in crisis care mode. But at least they don’t have a mask mandate.
But instead of living your true self you just choose to whine whine whine about the tyranny of a little piece of cloth.
Hospitals are full because of the backlog of elective surgeries not done previously due to covid. They are not full of covid cases.
Hospitals are full because of the backlog of elective surgeries not done previously due to covid. They are not full of covid cases.
We discovered in my wife's recent hospital stay that our local hospitals have all gone to one person rooms rather than two due to covid protocols. This has significantly diminished the available beds.
Teacher Terry
10-4-21, 12:27pm
In many areas people can’t get elective surgery because the hospitals are full of Covid. Locally a teenager spent 8 hours in the ER waiting for a bed and his appendix burst.
Here is the story I saw on delayed surgeries:
https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/hospitals-facing-backlog-in-patients-who-delayed-care-due-to-pandemic-122543685907
rosarugosa
10-4-21, 12:33pm
We discovered in my wife's recent hospital stay that our local hospitals have all gone to one person rooms rather than two due to covid protocols. This has significantly diminished the available beds.
Interesting, and it certainly makes sense.
A friend of mine was telling me about a friend of hers in Alabama. A few weeks ago she, her husband, and three sons all had covid. The sons’ cases were all mild so they were outside playing and found their dad’s machete and managed to slice off the end of the finger of the 8 year old. Worried about taking covid to the hospital she called and asked what to do. The hospital said not to worry about it. Everyone there had covid so they weren’t doing anything to try and contain it beyond standard procedures.
The hospital said not to worry about it. Everyone there had covid so they weren’t doing anything to try and contain it beyond standard procedures.I often wonder just how much of this third party information gets exaggerated during the telling. As I mentioned earlier our first hand experience at a local hospital last week showed that the hospital wasn't filled beyond capacity with covid patients forcing others to wait for treatment but rather that the number of hospital beds were cut practically in half in support of covid protocols. The 60 room wing we were in for several days housed two covid patients during that time according to nurses assigned to my wife and their hospitalization wasn't because of covid, but for other ailments they were suffering concurrently.
I don't want to diminish the horrors of covid by any means but I think we'd all be a little less anxious if we didn't put too much faith in third party accounts we've heard somewhere or which appear in commercial news sources.
A friend of mine was telling me about a friend of hers in Alabama. A few weeks ago she, her husband, and three sons all had covid. The sons’ cases were all mild so they were outside playing and found their dad’s machete and managed to slice off the end of the finger of the 8 year old. Worried about taking covid to the hospital she called and asked what to do. The hospital said not to worry about it. Everyone there had covid so they weren’t doing anything to try and contain it beyond standard procedures.
Covid will be with us forever and it is about time the medical establishment starts treating it as endemic instead of pandemic. I wish this were the case where I am.
Although many die every year of the flu we don't constantly test asymptomatic people for the flu, confine them to their homes if they are healthy but test positive, do extensive contract tracing so we can force other people who feel fine to quarantine, and in general wreak havoc in schools and workplaces by hunting for the flu virus.
There is a vaccine for covid, there are a variety of treatments available. Time to move on. And yes, that includes masks being optional.
An endemic approach focuses on caring for those severely impacted.
I think all the excessive worry, panic and sensational media stories about Covid are the exact opposite of simple living - unnecessary complexity.
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