View Full Version : Rittenhouse Verdict
The Wisconsin National Guard is positioned outside Kenosha against the contingency of riots after a verdict comes out.
Most of the media convicted the defendant a long time ago, and some seem to be blaming the presiding judge for what appears to be a strong case advanced by the defense. They’re hearing all kinds of white supremacy dog whistles. It will be interesting to see the outcome.
Chicago PD has had days off cancelled.
From the bit I heard, it seems some of the prosecution witnesses supported the defense’s case.
I don'treally have an opinion on his guilt or innocence and have some basic trust in the courts to decide, as long as the antics of mistrial or other technicalities don't come up. He did some dumb things, some of which were illegal, but I'm not convinced of some of the charges.
gimmethesimplelife
11-13-21, 4:19pm
I am aware of this trial but have not had time to keep up with it. It's a bit aggravating as there are people in the neighbood who judge and look down on me for not being involved in the neighborhood but right now I've got a decent job with lots of OT for me - I'm dealing with.my.Mom's increasing frailness(is that a word) plus trying to be a cheerleader for SO to get out of waiting tables.
It seems that the price tag of better money is no time....but realistically I will be 55 this coming Monday. Where will I find another such opportunity to become more financially stable at my age? Rob
I am aware of this trial but have not had time to keep up with it. It's a bit aggravating as there are people in the neighbood who judge and look down on me for not being involved in the neighborhood but right now I've got a decent job with lots of OT for me - I'm dealing with.my.Mom's increasing frailness(is that a word) plus trying to be a cheerleader for SO to get out of waiting tables.
It seems that the price tag of better money is no time....but realistically I will be 55 this coming Monday. Where will I find another such opportunity to become more financially stable at my age? Rob
Frailty is the word, as in the song Thank U by Alanis Morissette, one of my favorites.
Teacher Terry
11-13-21, 4:45pm
My friends and family in Kenosha believe that he should be convicted. My son has been watching the trial and is disgusted with the judge saying that he is acting like a defense attorney. No matter what the verdict I hope there isn’t violence.
Most of the media convicted the defendant a long time ago, and some seem to be blaming the presiding judge for what appears to be a strong case advanced by the defense. They’re hearing all kinds of white supremacy dog whistles. It will be interesting to see the outcome.
I think the outcome will be that he is acquitted of all the original charges and possibly convicted of one or more of the last minute lesser charges the prosecution spent all of yesterday trying to advance (and I expect to be the sole focus of Monday's closing argument to the jury). Having followed the trial and all the witness testimony closely I don't see any other reasonable result.
The shame of it is that the national media and at least half of our political class will not be held accountable for creating the atmosphere which spawned the entire event and its consequences.
Teacher Terry
11-13-21, 5:08pm
I watched part of the trial with his supposed crying which was a act. I didn’t see any tears and he was looking sideways at the jury to see if they were watching. Lots of blame to go around especially the mental institution that thought it was a good idea to release a unstable client into a riot. Ugh!
catherine
11-13-21, 5:08pm
I am aware of this trial but have not had time to keep up with it. It's a bit aggravating as there are people in the neighbood who judge and look down on me for not being involved in the neighborhood but right now I've got a decent job with lots of OT for me - I'm dealing with.my.Mom's increasing frailness(is that a word) plus trying to be a cheerleader for SO to get out of waiting tables.
It seems that the price tag of better money is no time....but realistically I will be 55 this coming Monday. Where will I find another such opportunity to become more financially stable at my age? Rob
This has nothing to do with the OP/topic, but I just want to let you know that I understand your feelings about work/money. Don't feel conflicted or guilty. You have to do what you have to do, and you are a blessing for your mother and SO. We all share love in different ways. I have a musician son who is trying to follow his passion, and one time he asked me about why I chose to do market research. "For the money." I said. He was taken aback and said, "No, really, why did you do it? You must have had some passion for it..." I said, "No, I did it for the money." But the money sent my kids to college and enabled me some freedom. I've always been an idealist and money has always been a back-burner thing for me, but for some reason, God/The Universe put me in an unexpected and unplanned for chance to fill my and other people's material needs. So don't feel guilty about not having time to keep up with the state of the world. You're taking care of YOUR world. I have a feeling you won't abuse the privilege.
Teacher Terry
11-13-21, 5:11pm
Taking care of yourself financially is definitely the right decision.
I watched part of the trial with his supposed crying which was a act. You didn't notice the sobbing and gulping for air? It seemed very genuine to me.
Since I haven’t been sitting in that jury box and hearing the testimony and sorting through the evidence, I don’t have an informed opinion on whether his actions once trouble began were reasonable, though various factions in our society seem to already decided.
However, his actions before that point strike me as moronic. I strive in my life to maintain distance from disorder, and the thought of deciding to boldly travel to an area of civil unrest, unsupported, to openly carry a rifle around is unreasonable to me.
happystuff
11-13-21, 6:39pm
I am aware of this trial but have not had time to keep up with it. It's a bit aggravating as there are people in the neighbood who judge and look down on me for not being involved in the neighborhood but right now I've got a decent job with lots of OT for me - I'm dealing with.my.Mom's increasing frailness(is that a word) plus trying to be a cheerleader for SO to get out of waiting tables.
It seems that the price tag of better money is no time....but realistically I will be 55 this coming Monday. Where will I find another such opportunity to become more financially stable at my age? Rob
Happy Birthday! You share the day with one of my kids! I hope you have a fabulous birthday!
happystuff
11-13-21, 6:40pm
No matter what the verdict I hope there isn’t violence.
My sentiments exactly!
happystuff
11-13-21, 6:54pm
This has nothing to do with the OP/topic, but I just want to let you know that I understand your feelings about work/money. Don't feel conflicted or guilty. You have to do what you have to do, and you are a blessing for your mother and SO. We all share love in different ways. I have a musician son who is trying to follow his passion, and one time he asked me about why I chose to do market research. "For the money." I said. He was taken aback and said, "No, really, why did you do it? You must have had some passion for it..." I said, "No, I did it for the money." But the money sent my kids to college and enabled me some freedom. I've always been an idealist and money has always been a back-burner thing for me, but for some reason, God/The Universe put me in an unexpected and unplanned for chance to fill my and other people's material needs. So don't feel guilty about not having time to keep up with the state of the world. You're taking care of YOUR world. I have a feeling you won't abuse the privilege.
Very wise words, catherine. I totally agree.
I don't know much about this event or trial but how is it OK for a 17 yo to be using/owning a weapon like that in the first place?
I don't know much about this event or trial but how is it OK for a 17 yo to be using/owning a weapon like that in the first place?
It's a semi auto. Same as my 9mm carry pistol. One round per one trigger pull.
I have plenty of friends whose kids shoot. And hunt. Some states allow ARs to be used for hunting. They're a very fun rifle. I had one for a while until I started diving.
It's not an automatic, regardless of what the media puts out. They are extremely common rifles.
No matter the type it just seems risky to allow a teenager to walk around in public with a gun. On the ranch or hunting is different.
I'm with you on that one!
So if he is acquitted will he immediately be released? If that happens what are the over/under odds that he’ll be arrested a second time within 24 hours of being released?
gimmethesimplelife
11-13-21, 8:53pm
This has nothing to do with the OP/topic, but I just want to let you know that I understand your feelings about work/money. Don't feel conflicted or guilty. You have to do what you have to do, and you are a blessing for your mother and SO. We all share love in different ways. I have a musician son who is trying to follow his passion, and one time he asked me about why I chose to do market research. "For the money." I said. He was taken aback and said, "No, really, why did you do it? You must have had some passion for it..." I said, "No, I did it for the money." But the money sent my kids to college and enabled me some freedom. I've always been an idealist and money has always been a back-burner thing for me, but for some reason, God/The Universe put me in an unexpected and unplanned for chance to fill my and other people's material needs. So don't feel guilty about not having time to keep up with the state of the world. You're taking care of YOUR world. I have a feeling you won't abuse the privilege.Catherine - many thanks for your wise words of sanity. I really needed to hear/read them. You are absolutely right -, I AM taking care of my world. And I'm doing a pretty good job of it. Thanks again for your practical words of common sense and sanity. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
11-13-21, 8:59pm
Taking care of yourself financially is definitely the right decision.Thank You, TT. I agree with you and see the wisdom in your words. I feel as if I've changed in some way from my protest at the drop of a hat days. Right now I'm banking all that I can and I'm there for SO and my Mother. Right now that's enough.....at some future date perhaps I'll be wind up protest ninja Rob again. We'll see. Rob
dado potato
11-13-21, 9:00pm
Kenosha is "close to home" but not "home" for me. I devoted time recently to the television coverage of the trial on Court TV. As I watched the trial, it seemed to me that the defense lawyers for Kyle Rittenhouse were effective in bringing forth evidence of self defense. I was not impressed by the prosecution in court. Still and all, it is for the jury to decide reasonable doubt or not... and I wish them well.
A good friend who lives in the Kenosha area told me that she deeply regrets the national publicity that occurred in August 2020, and how social media drew in protesters about the shooting of Jacob Blake, as well as "militia" volunteers, into nights of violence and destruction of property. Those who fanned the flames on talk radio and in social media will not be charged with any offense. Maybe (but I doubt it) they will be held accountable in the court of public opinion. My friend and I dread the community of Kenosha may be torn apart in more nights of violence and destruction.
Governor Evers has mobilized 500 Wisconsin National Guard members to stand by in case local law enforcement agencies need their assistance. The Governor also recommended that people who are not residents of Kenosha reconsider any plans for pilgrimage to Kenosha in the next few days.
The trial of Kyle Rittenhouse is not a matter of "life or death" for me. I believe that prison makes a good man bad, and a bad man worse. I feel that there is too much political polarization in our republic. There are too many guns... and too many narcissists with guns.
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gimmethesimplelife
11-13-21, 9:06pm
Happy Birthday! You share the day with one of my kids! I hope you have a fabulous birthday!Thank You, Happystuff. I share this birthday with the late Georgia O'Keefe and the late Ed Asner. Also Petula Clark of "Downtown" fame. Happy Birthday to whoever in your family shares this birthday with me.
Side note: I've always been grateful to be a Scorpio. Always. Rob
iris lilies
11-13-21, 9:09pm
Since I haven’t been sitting in that jury box and hearing the testimony and sorting through the evidence, I don’t have an informed opinion on whether his actions once trouble began were reasonable, though various factions in our society seem to already decided.
However, his actions before that point strike me as moronic. I strive in my life to maintain distance from disorder, and the thought of deciding to boldly travel to an area of civil unrest, unsupported, to openly carry a rifle around is unreasonable to me.
This is what I told DH: he’s another thuggish Teen with a (probably) illegal gun like the brothers down the street here.
It isnt his job to protect the gas station or whatever he thought he was doing.
This doesn't mean he is guilty if any charges of course.
And I dont understand why Rob would be protesting if he could, since there are not cops involved.
gimmethesimplelife
11-13-21, 9:09pm
Kenosha is "close to home" but not "home" for me. I devoted time recently to the television coverage of the trial on Court TV. As I watched the trial, it seemed to me that the defense lawyers for Kyle Rittenhouse were effective in bringing forth evidence of self defense. I was not impressed by the prosecution in court. Still and all, it is for the jury to decide reasonable doubt or not... and I wish them well.
A good friend who lives in the Kenosha area told me that she deeply regrets the national publicity that occurred in August 2020, and how social media drew in protesters about the shooting of Jacob Blake, as well as "militia" volunteers, into nights of violence and destruction of property. Those who fanned the flames on talk radio and in social media will not be charged with any offense. Maybe (but I doubt it) they will be held accountable in the court of public opinion. My friend and I dread the community of Kenosha may be torn apart in more nights of violence and destruction.
Governor Evers has mobilized 500 Wisconsin National Guard members to stand by in case local law enforcement agencies need their assistance. The Governor also recommended that people who are not residents of Kenosha reconsider any plans for pilgrimage to Kenosha in the next few days.
The trial of Kyle Rittenhouse is not a matter of "life or death" for me. I believe that prison makes a good man bad, and a bad man worse. I feel that there is too much political polarization in our republic. There are too many guns... and too many narcissists with guns.
]I could not agree more with your last sentence - but what can you do given the American right to bear/have arms? I wish there were some legal way to screen out those who are too unstable/unfit to bear/have arms. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
11-13-21, 9:21pm
This is what I told DH: he’s another thuggish Teen with a (probably) illegal gun like the brothers down the street here.
It isnt his job to protect the gas station or whatever he thought he was doing.
This doesn't mean he is guilty if any charges of course.
And I dont understand why Rob would be protesting if he could, since there are not cops involved.No snark and no offense here IL. I have protested issues beyond law enforcement also. Cases in point - Wells Fargo and United Airlines. The Wells Fargo protests had to do with their opening accounts that customers did not ask for, among other WF trespasses. I will give you that the United Airlines Doctor Dao issue did have a tinge of law enforcement involved - but in this case I only protested United Airlines and not law enforcement.
Long winded point? There are numerous issues beyond law enforcement to legitimately protest against. Protesting is not that one dimensional. Rob
Teacher Terry
11-14-21, 3:29am
Rob, you will never regret being there for your mom. I am glad that I could help my parents when they needed it. You will be retired before you know it with how fast time is going.
Alan, I saw a over the top act with a side eye to the jury to observe the effect it was having on jurors. I come from a hunting family as did my kid’s dad and my middle son hunted with them. No one had this type of rifle for hunting.
I come from a hunting family as did my kid’s dad and my middle son hunted with them. No one had this type of rifle for hunting.
I come from a hunting family and have used this type of rifle for hunting since the 1980s.
I come from a hunting family as did my kid’s dad and my middle son hunted with them. No one had this type of rifle for hunting.
Guess it depends on if the families members were fudds or not.
Guess it depends on if the families members were fudds or not.
Fudds?
I come from a hunting family as did my kid’s dad and my middle son hunted with them. No one had this type of rifle for hunting.I'm not sure what that observation has to do with this case other than as a subtle suggestion that anyone using an AR15 must secretly wish to kill people. I think that's also the basis of an awful lot of media coverage along with the ever popular 'white supremacist' label our President used to describe this kid. Of course that sort of thing simply exposes the speakers bias rather than facts so I really hope the jury isn't taken in by that sort of constant assault.
I suppose it’s possible that someone who isn’t a white supremacist would choose to hang out with them. I personally wouldn’t but perhaps I just have higher standards than Rittenhouse.
It’s funny. I move in pretty small town, not terribly rarified circles these days, and I have yet to meet a genuine committed white supremacist.
It’s funny. I move in pretty small town, not terribly rarified circles these days, and I have yet to meet a genuine committed white supremacist.
Do you consider that a good thing or a bad thing? I imagine that if you killed a couple of black people they might make more of an effort to seek you out.
I have reached out to an organization that some consider white supremacist to see if they want to help me fight the mask mandate as they have opposed vaccine mandates. Recently they had an event where they were peaceful but counterprotestors were arrested for violent acts.
Their leadership team includes people of color and while they oppose critical race theory I am not convinced they are white supremacists. I have reached out to people across pretty much the entire political spectrum. No communists or socialists as I don't know of any in my area.
It’s funny. I move in pretty small town, not terribly rarified circles these days, and I have yet to meet a genuine committed white supremacist.
I guess it depends on how you define the term. It appears that some might consider anyone attempting to mitigate damages by rioters or provide aid to victims of mobs while maintaining the ability to protect themselves from that same mob is indeed a white supremacist. Like you, I don't actually know any but perhaps in others counter-intuitive mind, that just shows how pervasive it is.
Personally I don't know any murderers. I guess that means that they don't actually exist.
Personally I don't know any murderers. I guess that means that they don't actually exist.
But do you refer to others as murderers just on the off chance that they might be?
Do you consider that a good thing or a bad thing? I imagine that if you killed a couple of black people they might make more of an effort to seek you out.
It’s just that if there are enough of them around to swing the Virginia election, as we’ve been told, you would think they’d be more visible.
There's a much much bigger "off chance" that a group of Proud Boys flashing a common white supremacy symbol for a photo while having drinks with underage Kyle in a bar are in fact white supremacists.
I think they exist. I also think bronies exist. I just don’t think they are an all-pervading threat. I do think they serve as a useful bogeyman for justification for all kinds of nonsense.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is.
For the record, I don’t consider ducks to be a threat to “our democracy” either.
For the record, I don’t consider ducks to be a threat to “our democracy” either.
They at least have redeeming qualities. Like selling illness income replacement insurance.
There's a much much bigger "off chance" that a group of Proud Boys flashing a common white supremacy symbol for a photo while having drinks with underage Kyle in a bar are in fact white supremacists.
That's an interesting take, does that mean there's an off chance that I'm a rock star?
https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/257536451_593700778635778_6918074903646173729_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=S-08l3UVX8cAX-Jf8lL&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=fe092efe6a1677b8869c9115176777a9&oe=61B8C9A8
iris lilies
11-14-21, 3:00pm
That's an interesting take, does that mean there's an off chance that I'm a rock star?
https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/257536451_593700778635778_6918074903646173729_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=S-08l3UVX8cAX-Jf8lL&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=fe092efe6a1677b8869c9115176777a9&oe=61B8C9A8
haha, why yes!I think so!
This entire episode has been a maelstrom of stupidity. It began with the proverbial “bringing a knife to a gunfight”. While the feds could find no charges to bring against the cops, it was close enough to the preferred narrative to bring squadrons of semiprofessional fools to fight for social justice by burning down a number of families’ livelihoods. The local and state governments responded slowly and indecisively, contributing to the fun. A dumb kid brought an AR-15 to “help out”. He winds up shooting three white guys, which gets him branded as a white supremacist. When his trial doesn’t seem to go well for the prosecution, the moronic media decides the judge must be biased based on his ringtone and commitment to the Fifth Amendment. If you were to write a novel with this plot, people would call it preposterous.
frugal-one
11-14-21, 5:29pm
I'm not sure what that observation has to do with this case other than as a subtle suggestion that anyone using an AR15 must secretly wish to kill people. I think that's also the basis of an awful lot of media coverage along with the ever popular 'white supremacist' label our President used to describe this kid. Of course that sort of thing simply exposes the speakers bias rather than facts so I really hope the jury isn't taken in by that sort of constant assault.
What is their motive other than to kill others? (honest question… not meant as snark)
frugal-one
11-14-21, 5:31pm
It’s funny. I move in pretty small town, not terribly rarified circles these days, and I have yet to meet a genuine committed white supremacist.
Shocking to me every time…. I have met a fair number.
What is their motive other than to kill others? (honest question… not meant as snark)Well, I don't think there's any such thing as a universal motive for owning a specific weapon but there's lots that don't necessarily involve killing someone. My brother has an AR15 that as far as I know has never been fired, he just liked it and decided to buy it. My niece has one that she routinely takes to an outdoor firing range for target practice and based upon some of the videos I've seen of her practicing she's pretty darned good with it! I can say with some certainty that neither of them are motivated to kill anyone with their rifles.
I think the AR15 gets a lot of bad press just because they're popular. They're not more powerful than other weapons, they're not more deadly than other weapons, they're not more capable in any way of harming people than other weapons many people find less offensive. I believe any suggestions otherwise are just silly, and regardless of what others may say about their un-suitability for hunting, they're just fine for that.
Some people may say they own one for self defense purposes although I personally don't think they're very well suited for that purpose, I find them to be just too big and unwieldy. I spent over 30 years carrying one weapon or another daily for self defense and the defense of others. In the tongue-in-cheek photo I posted earlier in this thread I had a .40 caliber Glock semi-auto pistol under my jacket which was just as capable of killing people as any AR15 although I can also say with certainty that on the evening that picture was taken, as well as the multi thousands of other days I carried it or another weapon similar to it, it was never my intention to kill anyone either.
I see the gun charge has been dropped, it being established that the weapon in question did not meet the Wisconsin standard for a “short barreled rifle”. I’m not sure why that couldn’t have been determined earlier.
iris lilies
11-15-21, 2:24pm
I see the gun charge has been dropped, it being established that the weapon in question did not meet the Wisconsin standard for a “short barreled rifle”. I’m not sure why that couldn’t have been determined earlier.
The reason is politics.
The same reason why in my city, our city prosecutor went after a white couple who shot no shots while standing on their own property with legally obtained guns, yet regularly this same prosecutor lets murderers who shoot many people with many shots from illegally obtained guns go. Or as with our recent family friend’s crime, lets the accomplice go scot free.
I won’t provide links because I am too tired of the gross negligence to chronicle her latest idiocies.
What is happening in my city is coming to yours (the generic you.)
Fudds?
Yes. Fudds. It comes from Elmer Fudd, who always hunted Bugs with his shotgun. Fudds are people who think modern firearms are dangerous and unnecessary and are fine with their old fashioned shotguns, rifles, and revolvers.
The reason is politics.
The same reason why in my city, our city prosecutor went after a white couple who shot no shots while standing on their own property with legally obtained guns, yet regularly this same prosecutor lets murderers who shoot many people with many shots from illegally obtained guns go. Or as with our recent family friend’s crime, lets the accomplice go scot free.
I won’t provide links because I am too tired of the gross negligence to chronicle her latest idiocies.
What is happening in my city is coming to yours (the generic you.)
It’s amazing how prosecutors can affect the quality of life in their jurisdictions. Looking at San Francisco, where they quit prosecuting retail theft under a certain level. It looks like some major retailers are closing stores due to the rampant shoplifting. The stats say reported thefts are down, but that seems simply due to people thinking reporting them is pointless under the circumstances.
Same sort of issues in Chicago.
Same sort of issues in Chicago.
And Seattle.
I recently abandoned plans to purchase a place in Seattle because of the, well, "issues".
You see strange combinations of anarchy and authoritarianism in some of these cities. I’m reminded of the joke that in San Francisco you need to show proof of vaccination before defecating on the sidewalk.
It’s curious that the judge insisted that the people Kyle killed could not be called victims since their killer hadn’t been convicted but out of his second face he allowed the defense to call them rioters and looters despite the fact that they had not been convicted of anything either.
Teacher Terry
11-16-21, 12:46am
The judge is acting like a defense attorney. Ugh!
The judge is acting like a defense attorney. Ugh!
What did he do?
It’s curious that the judge insisted that the people Kyle killed could not be called victims since their killer hadn’t been convicted but out of his second face he allowed the defense to call them rioters and looters despite the fact that they had not been convicted of anything either.
I don't think that was curious at all, I believe the event had already been declared a riot by city officials so the participants were indeed rioters. The jury is not tasked with determining the truth of that although they are tasked with determining whether or not Rittenhouse murdered two of the rioters or acted in self defense. To allow the rioters to be referred to as victims would be seen by the jury as facts not in evidence and potentially influence their decision of guilt or innocence. The judge's insistence is a proper element of jurisprudence.
What did he do?He appears to be insisting on fairness.
It seems to now hinge on whether the jury interpretes Wisconsin’s legal definition of “provocation” to defeat the self-defense argument. The prosecution seems to be asserting that his very presence there was sufficient to constitute provocation. The defense seems to be claiming that alone doesn’t meet the statutory definition.
I don't think that was curious at all, I believe the event had already been declared a riot by city officials so the participants were indeed rioters. The jury is not tasked with determining the truth of that although they are tasked with determining whether or not Rittenhouse murdered two of the rioters or acted in self defense. To allow the rioters to be referred to as victims would be seen by the jury as facts not in evidence and potentially influence their decision of guilt or innocence. The judge's insistence is a proper element of jurisprudence.
Did any of the victims have stolen evidence on them at the time of their death? If not then the judge allowing them to be called looters would seem to be an error in favor of the defense.
I hear the jury has asked for additional copies of the instructions related to provocation and self- defense. I’m told that “provocation” in this state is a bit more complicated than what you might think. It’s good to see a jury trying to apply the law as written rather than through the lens of ideological bias.
Might have been a mistake for the prosecutor to play with the gun during his summation.
Did any of the victims have stolen evidence on them at the time of their death? If not then the judge allowing them to be called looters would seem to be an error in favor of the defense.
Perhaps “cosplayers” would be a better term.
Jury instructions:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/read-jury-instructions-in-kyle-rittenhouse-trial/e32f975c-0af3-4382-80fa-5f4edc8003cc/
ToomuchStuff
11-16-21, 6:49pm
In the last week, my back went out, which also screwed up my guts (caused an intestinal blockage), so I have been working, busy and pretty miserable.
I haven't got to see much of the trial, so I have missed what they added on for charges. I have also missed how the firearm was obtained, who owns it, if they have been charged either state (or if maybe the feds are awaiting a verdict to come in and try a straw purchase charge) or federally, already.
Having read through the posts here, I agree with Bae, that this goes against one of the basic tenants of gun safety (avoid doing stupid things with stupid people), but that is NOT A LAW, and I certainly fear the society that tries to make it law (stupidity and ignorance is a fine line) as I am sure we have all done stupid things. Hell, the jury could be coming back as I type this, I am so out of the loop, right now.
Also had to deal with making some ownership decisions, at the same time the estate is being held up by a $60 bill, because x hospital put the wrong pay to information on their bill.
dado potato
11-16-21, 7:43pm
In the last week, my back went out, which also screwed up my guts (caused an intestinal blockage), so I have been working, busy and pretty miserable.
Sending healing vibes. I hope you have a complete and speedy recovery from all ailments.
I watched most of the televised trial. Of course Judge Schroeder is older than other judges in Wisconsin, and his memory has a few gaps (like mine!), and he does not always dress up his comments in the mildest and sweetest language. That said, he was elected to his position. A detached observer may think they detect biases, because Judge Schroeder did not allow the people Kyle Rittenhouse shot to be referred to as "victims" in his courtroom. But to me, as a plain unprofessional observer, it seemed like a fair trial.
As the sun goes down in the evening, I say: Restez calme, Kenosha.
happystuff
11-17-21, 10:48am
Back pain is horrible! I hope you heal quickly,ToomuchStuff.
Area school districts are switching to virtual learning in fear of the mostly peaceful protests that may spontaneously erupt after a verdict is released.
Now it appears that cable news network MSNBC has been barred from the courthouse after someone identifying themselves as an MSNBC employee was caught following the jury bus last night, attempting to get photographs of the jurors.
I wonder how the jury feels about media's attempts to identify them for the "mostly peaceful" protesters, and what effect that may have in their deliberations?
I wonder how the jury feels about media's attempts to identify them for the "mostly peaceful" protesters, and what effect that may play in their deliberations?
I am still unclear about what the protesters would be protesting?
I am still unclear about what the protesters would be protesting?
I think at this point they're just making sure they're on site to show their displeasure when he's acquitted of all the original charges, although it may also be an intimidation tactic to ensure jurors know they're waiting for them outside.
I think at this point they're just making sure they're on site to show their displeasure when he's acquitted of all the original charges.
From the limited amount of news coverage I watched, it seems they would have preferred he had been executed on the street by police on The Night In Question, rather than given a trial.
I am still unclear about what the protesters would be protesting?
Systemic racism? Guns? The high price of accelerants?
Verdict has been reached. Waiting for result.
Not guilty on all five counts.
Now let’s see what happens over the weekend.
The schools near the courthouse were put on eLearning.
Now let’s see what happens over the weekend.
I guess I better polish up M1917 and make sure my belt loader is still properly adjusted. This century-old technology can be a bit touchy. I should have gone with links.
https://babylonbee.com/news/verdict-is-in-jury-finds-kyle-rittenhouse-based-and-an-absolute-chad
frugal-one
11-19-21, 3:03pm
Absolutely disgusting!
Thousands of armed men in camouflage are converging on Wisconsin tomorrow. The code name of the operation is “Deer Season”.
As much or little as I've tracked things, I could understand a legitimate case for self defense. There is obviously a slew of details I am unaware. Being an idiot isn't necessariliy illegal. The news says he received sizable contributions for legal defense from conservative groups. It might be interesting to know who those groups are, although I can suspect right rights advocates.
The news says he received sizable contributions for legal defense from conservative groups. It might be interesting to know who those groups are, although I can suspect right rights advocates.
Yes, it is pretty sketchy to be able to mount a capable defense :-) There's your structural racism right there.
I wonder if the sticky issue of "beyond a reasonable doubt' may have accounted for the long jury deliberation. Maybe he will grow up to be a productive member of society, like a team leader at Walmart.
Maybe he will grow up to be a productive member of society, like a team leader at Walmart.
I think his life is pretty much screwed over from now on.
So, now that we’ve determined that rittenhouse wasn’t a bad guy with a gun how does one tell the difference? If I’d been their and came across that jerk that’s certainly what I would’ve thought and I would’ve acted accordingly. But first I should probably call the nearby elementary school to see if they would offer an ‘active shooter’ training class to adults too old to have had that training as a little child. All I know how to do is duck and cover but that skill seems to have gone out of fashion.
But first I should probably call the nearby elementary school to see if they would offer an ‘active shooter’ training class to adults too old to have had that training as a little child. All I know how to do is duck and cover but that skill seems to have gone out of fashion.
I've helped teach community classes using this organization's material, and it seems quite helpful:
https://www.stopthebleed.org/
So, now that we’ve determined that rittenhouse wasn’t a bad guy with a gun how does one tell the difference? If I’d been their and came across that jerk that’s certainly what I would’ve thought and I would’ve acted accordingly.
See, I suspect you are wise enough to not be there in the first place.
If I were casually walking down the street on a nice day, and saw a guy carrying a rifle, I'd keep a watchful eye on the situation. If he started pointing his gun at me, well, then I'd "act accordingly". Which might be simply to get the heck out of Dodge ASAP.
I try to keep myself out of situations where people point guns at me though. It is difficult to tell who "the bad guy with a gun" is in fluid and confusing situations, and who wants to deal with all that paperwork?
There was a recent local good samaritan case where some mentally ill person decided he should shoot a police officer and caused a situation that resulted in police showing up. The first policeman was ambused and killed. Before he could cause further damage, a good samaritan nearby who had a legal pistol, shot and killed the mental case. He was disarming the shooter and while picking up the shooter's weapon a second policeman arrived. Thinking the good samaritan was actually the active shooter, he shot and killed him. The second policeman was not charged. It was a very sad incident. Both the dead policeman and the good samaritan seemed like really decent people.
Maybe the point being that indeed, knowing who the bad guy is can be blurred in situations where split second decisions are needed and everyone has guns.
I was surprised to see so few people in the Wisconsin courtroom wearing masks when I was told I would have to wear one for jury duty no ifs, ands or buts.
I see Nikole Hannah-Jones is referring to the verdict as “the legacy of 1619”. You have to admire her zeal for self-promotion.
I was surprised to see so few people in the Wisconsin courtroom wearing masks when I was told I would have to wear one for jury duty no ifs, ands or buts.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjpALEsV4AAnhUX.jpg
iris lilies
11-19-21, 8:03pm
As much or little as I've tracked things, I could understand a legitimate case for self defense. There is obviously a slew of details I am unaware. Being an idiot isn't necessariliy illegal. The news says he received sizable contributions for legal defense from conservative groups. It might be interesting to know who those groups are, although I can suspect right rights advocates.
But somehow I doubt the ACLU as a leading beacon of legalities in this area contributed to his defense.
But somehow I doubt the ACLU as a leading beacon of legalities in this area contributed to his defense.
It would probably put a damper on their fundraising.
When I was a recreational plaintiff for Second Amendment cases, it was generally not funded by the ACLU, though I always gave them first whack at the piñata just for form's sake.
I asked the ACLU to help me fight a mask mandate that is illegal because my area is not in a state of emergency but they turned me down. They are too busy fighting against efforts to move homeless people out of tents and into housing before winter.
I asked the ACLU to help me fight a mask mandate that is illegal because my area is not in a state of emergency but they turned me down. They are too busy fighting against efforts to move homeless people out of tents and into housing before winter.
Lord, where *are* their priorities these days?
Lord, where *are* their priorities these days?
Certainly not in supporting a solid effort to provide people with not just housing but support services for things like addiction and mental health. The homeless have a right to freeze to death if they want.
On the other hand heaven forbid someone wants to risk death from covid by refusing a vaccine.
The right to die depends on who you are ... or just maybe behind the supposed desire to protect the rights of the homeless is a sinister desire to see them go away permanently in the grave, whereas many anti-vaxxers work for a living and must be forcibly saved since we have a labor shortage. Except they aren't all following the script. Some are quitting.
https://i1.wp.com/4.bp.blogspot.com/-uZ1es0FlFMo/UWwBxpj7nQI/AAAAAAAAJ8A/VS5o18HzLsY/s1600/wallis-horse-meat-chart.png
I asked the ACLU to help me fight a mask mandate that is illegal because my area is not in a state of emergency but they turned me down. They are too busy fighting against efforts to move homeless people out of tents and into housing before winter.
I'm curious what the details are on this since as we've seen in Kenosha, details matter intensely. I could certainly see the ACLU fighting it if the choice given the homeless person is "move into this housing but stop using drugs and adhere to our rules to get treatment,etc" or "if you don't do #1 we're going to destroy your tent and other stuff and leave you out on the street as winter is approaching."
To get back on topic, I think it's refreshing to see justice triumph over months and months of deliberately false narratives from the media and social justice warriors. By the same token, it's depressing to see the impact those intentionally false narratives could have had. One take-a-way is that most journalism is opinion and most opinions are wrong.
To get back on topic, I think it's refreshing to see justice triumph over months and months of deliberately false narratives from the media and social justice warriors. By the same token, it's depressing to see the impact those intentionally false narratives could have had. One take-a-way is that most journalism is opinion and most opinions are wrong.
I understand the President has said the verdict left him “angry and concerned”.
I understand the President has said the verdict left him “angry and concerned”.
Has he started with the “if I had a son” hooey like Obama did?
Some idiot is trying to get the US DOJ to get involved for something about civil rights? Did someone not get the message that all involved were white and the guy who lived was carrying a pistol illegally? His carry permit was revoked after he had a DUI.
Has he started with the “if I had a son” hooey like Obama did?
Some idiot is trying to get the US DOJ to get involved for something about civil rights? Did someone not get the message that all involved were white and the guy who lived was carrying a pistol illegally? His carry permit was revoked after he had a DUI.
And how exactly did the child who actually, you know, killed people get his weapon?
iris lilies
11-20-21, 12:06am
There must be something wrong with me. I’m not invested in the Rittenhouse trial and its outcome.
And how exactly did the child who actually, you know, killed people get his weapon?
I believe it was a straw man purchase by a friend, which is a felony. For which the friend was charged.
My daughter has had similar rifles since she was a pre-teen. Not a felony. Then again, we followed the rules. As a result, she is a quite capable competitive shooter. I suspect she wouldn't decide to go walking around a riot in Seattle at 11pm carrying one of them "to help people". Then again, she's not a moron.
There must be something wrong with me. I’m not invested in the Rittenhouse trial and its outcome.
I suppose the two dead people as a result of this little kid putting himself in a situation for which he wasn’t mature enough to handle are pretty inconsequential.
I suppose the two dead people as a result of this little kid putting himself in a situation for which he wasn’t mature enough to handle are pretty inconsequential.
Wasn't there a curfew that evening? And weren't all the folks involved, well, in violation of it and having a grand old time acting out?
Why someone would even be there on purpose at that time in those circumstances escapes my comprehension.
Wasn't there a curfew that evening? And weren't all the folks involved, well, in violation of it and having a grand old time acting out?
Why someone would even be there on purpose at that time in those circumstances escapes my comprehension.
There was. But I guess my question then becomes why should all the non-killers (aka every single ****ing person out there that night besides killer rittenhouse) have to be told to stay home because the government can’t protect them from immature children who fancy themselves as protectors of liberty or whatever stoopid ****ing idea that asshole had in his head. If this is what the second amendment translates into then it is a failed idea in its current state.
There was. But I guess my question then becomes why should all the non-killers (aka every single ****ing person out there that night besides killer rittenhouse) have to be told to stay home because the government can’t protect them from immature children who fancy themselves as protectors of liberty or whatever stoopid ****ing idea that asshole had in his head. If this is what the second amendment translates into then it is a failed idea in its current state.
Was that the purpose of the curfew that evening?
Was that the purpose of the curfew that evening?
Probably not. I assume it was probably to justify denying people’s first amendment rights. Imagine if those were as sacrosanct as second amendment ones. Perhaps someone needs to found an NSA (National speech association) that relentlessly pursued people’s first amendment rights the way the NRA pursues their favorite little chunk of the second amendment and accused anyone who denied any bit of first amendment awesomeness as traitorous hating of American freedom.
The BBC indeed verifies that the initial Kenosha Free Speech event was a legitimate constitutionally-protected activity...
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/9255/production/_121516473_gettyimages-1268411079.jpg
What has the Supreme Court said about curfews?
The BBC indeed verifies that the initial Kenosha Free Speech event was a legitimate constitutionally-protected activity...
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/9255/production/_121516473_gettyimages-1268411079.jpg
What has the Supreme Court said about curfews?
Does the SC’s decisions about curfews match up with the decisions about the second amendment limitations?
Does the SC’s decisions about curfews match up with the decisions about the second amendment limitations?
Well, you'd have to ask a more specific question than that. Though there are only a handful of SC decisions on the 2nd Amendment, probably wouldn't take you long to read them.
You’re the one trying to tell me that the supremes have made reasonable first amendment decisions. If you don’t want to convince me that those were good decisions and weren’t more restrictive than what they have decided for the second amendment that’s fine. But you’re the one that presented that premise. If you don’t know the answer to my question it kind of tells me the answer to my question.
Teacher Terry
11-20-21, 1:39am
I respect the jury verdict since they were in the courtroom every day and I wasn’t. It probably would have been smarter for the prosecution to charge him initially with a lower offense such as manslaughter since the videos showed he wasn’t the aggressor. As my youngest son said after the verdict that he agreed with was that he wouldn’t want to live in the same neighborhood as that kid. Plenty of blame to go around of course as has already been pointed out on this thread. Many lives ruined unnecessarily.
You’re the one trying to tell me that the supremes have made reasonable first amendment decisions. If you don’t want to convince me that those were good decisions and weren’t more restrictive than what they have decided for the second amendment that’s fine. But you’re the one that presented that premise. If you don’t know the answer to my question it kind of tells me the answer to my question.
And now you are putting words in my mouth, setting up a straw man, and setting it on fire.
Nyet
And now you are putting words in my mouth, setting up a straw man, and setting it on fire.
Nyet
Fine. I’ll bookmark this discussion until I’ve been retired for 20 years and can present a super duper smarty pants reply because I will have had the chance to do the in depth research.
Fine. I’ll bookmark this discussion until I’ve been retired for 20 years and can present a super duper smarty pants reply because I will have had the chance to do the in depth research.
Well, as I said, it should be trivial. There are many many many cases developing time/place/manner for the 1st Amendment, and what speech is, and all that stuff.
And you can count the cases involving the Second Amendment basically onethe fingers of one hand, because it had been ignored by the Court for so long. Until recently it was pretty much "any restrictions go, who cares about that nasty old bit of text".
Your basic premises are flawed.
I'm curious what the details are on this since as we've seen in Kenosha, details matter intensely. I could certainly see the ACLU fighting it if the choice given the homeless person is "move into this housing but stop using drugs and adhere to our rules to get treatment,etc" or "if you don't do #1 we're going to destroy your tent and other stuff and leave you out on the street as winter is approaching."
They didn't destroy their things. They got them plastic bins to put things in.
They didn't destroy their things. They got them plastic bins to put things in.
How does one live in a tent that is in a plastic bin?
How does one live in a tent that is in a plastic bin?
No, they got plastic tubs so they could pack up their things and move to housing. They did not throw their possessions away.
iris lilies
11-20-21, 9:54am
I suppose the two dead people as a result of this little kid putting himself in a situation for which he wasn’t mature enough to handle are pretty inconsequential.
There are people shot dead regularly in my zip code, right around the corner. More stupid games generating stupid prizes. While it is too bad teenagers with guns choose to embroil themselves in unnecessary conflict, it happens too often for me to get heated up about it.
I wonder how far the arguement of self defense will go in the other high profile case in the news, this one involving race. One of the arguements of the prosecution was that a person cannot argue self-defense when the situation is one that the person himself provoked. That appearently did not hold water here. In one of the reports the police were appearently not concerned when he surrendered with gun raised because there were so many armed people roving the streets. There were several bozos on the bus.
Meantime, here in my state nine teenagers were shot on or near high school grounds in two separate incidents. Although none died, it barely reached the national news.
I see there was a riot over the verdict. In Portland.
There are people shot dead regularly in my zip code, right around the corner. More stupid games generating stupid prizes. While it is too bad teenagers with guns choose to embroil themselves in unnecessary conflict, it happens too often for me to get heated up about it.
Gang bangers are gonna gang bang. Lots of freeway shootings in Sh*tcago now. Car jackings. Lots of innocent people getting shot, including very young kids. Much hand wringing but the idiotic Kim Foxx who is the Crook County state’s atty (prosecutor) has a stated goal of keeping black and brown people from going behind bars and too damn many are let out quickly. And guess what happens soon after? More shootings from the same people. Yawn.
iris lilies
11-20-21, 12:22pm
I see there was a riot over the verdict. In Portland.
I’m laughing just a little bit that Portland is becoming a mini St. Louis. I’m laughing for a reasons… I won’t go into.
I’m laughing just a little bit that Portland is becoming a mini St. Louis. I’m laughing for a reasons… I won’t go into.
They attacked the jail in Portland and shut down the Brooklyn bridge, but Kenosha is pretty quiet.
iris lilies
11-21-21, 12:12pm
They attacked the jail in Portland and shut down the Brooklyn bridge, but Kenosha is pretty quiet.
midwestern common sense finally prevails?
gimmethesimplelife
11-21-21, 1:29pm
I did some quick research regarding this trial and I gotta say I am not happy about the verdict. All this country needs is another high profile trial to fan the flames of hatred and division, no?
A riot has been declared in Portland already.....let'd hope that this does not morph into a repeat of Summer 2020. With the Great Resignation and disillusioned young people a dime a dozen, those who might not have had time to protest have it now. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
11-21-21, 1:33pm
I see there was a riot over the verdict. In Portland.I lived in Portland from 1991 to 1996 - Portland has changed. My Portland was much less expensive, did not have 116F days, and was not Protest Central by the Willamette (the river flowing through Portland). Rob
I did some quick research regarding this trial and I gotta say I am not happy about the verdict. What sort of "research" could possibly result in an unhappy opinion of the verdict? If you follow the evidence you should be thrilled that justice prevailed, although if you follow the media narrative I can see how you might be disappointed. I guess it boils down to whether we're interested in justice or manufactured outrage.
midwestern common sense finally prevails?
Either that, or they ran out of combustibles.
Yossarian
11-21-21, 3:38pm
I guess it boils down to whether we're interested in justice or manufactured outrage.
While the verdicts seem right to me legally, there is a repeating theme in these cases where people do stupid things that precipitate bad results from others. And while their stupid acts don't waive their right to self defense or necessarily make them criminals, there is still some lingering anger over them fueling the situations. Think George Zimmerman or the defendants in the Ahmad Aubrey trial. Justice is probably a broader concept then our binary criminal justice system can emulate.
I don't really have a problem with the legal outcome, but the talk about elevating him to some sort of hero status like I've seen mentioned by certain conservative news hosts and a few politicians just seems wrong.
I don't really have a problem with the legal outcome, but the talk about elevating him to some sort of hero status like I've seen mentioned by certain conservative news hosts and a few politicians just seems wrong.
It's sickening really.
While the verdicts seem right to me legally, there is a repeating theme in these cases where people do stupid things that precipitate bad results from others. And while their stupid acts don't waive their right to self defense or necessarily make them criminals, there is still some lingering anger over them fueling the situations.
I agree with this, although in this case the fuel came from multiple directions. If the media had reported all the facts in the Jacob Blake case rather than going with a version designed to inflame emotions, perhaps protests and subsequent riots would not have occurred. If a newfound woke consciousness hadn't infiltrated cities all over the country perhaps the local police could have shut down rioting and destruction before it became obvious that individuals were the last line of defense. If rioters hadn't threatened those individuals and then tried to back up those threats there would have been no need for anyone to defend themselves.
Those who place all the blame on Rittenhouse are missing a very large part of the overall story.
I don't really have a problem with the legal outcome, but the talk about elevating him to some sort of hero status like I've seen mentioned by certain conservative news hosts and a few politicians just seems wrong.
The MSM makes saints out of the victims of police shootings. “They we’re going to turn their lives around tomorrow. Cure cancer…” I’m being sarcastic but you get my drift. I think someone would be sainted even if they were a pedophile.
In my mind there's a difference between elevating someone to hero status versus stating that they shouldn't have died in the way that they did.
iris lilies
11-21-21, 6:30pm
In my mind there's a difference between elevating someone to hero status versus stating that they shouldn't have died in the way that they did.
My city’s Mike Brown was such a great young man. He had a plan to go to community college and gosh he was a good guy [ Please ignore that footage of him strong arming the convenience store clerk and walking out stealing stuff from the shelf.]
“Hands Up Don’t Shoot” elevates the Mike Brown narrative to a fantasy of epic proportion. So yeah, I believe he’s been awarded hero status. You don’t have to believe that, You do you.
There always seems to be a lot of added colorization of people and events in situations like this. In some ways, I feel for this kid. He’s got some unsavory types claiming him as their own, and he’s got the US President identifying him as a white supremacist.
Had he been convicted, some would have taken that as evidence of militant white supremacy. Many of the same people are claiming his acquittal provides evidence of systemic white supremacy. The facts of the case and the applicable law hardly matter.
boss mare
11-21-21, 11:06pm
https://i1.wp.com/4.bp.blogspot.com/-uZ1es0FlFMo/UWwBxpj7nQI/AAAAAAAAJ8A/VS5o18HzLsY/s1600/wallis-horse-meat-chart.png
I have told Jeppy that I could have a dead horse delivered right to her doorstep. I gave her a choice of an aluminum or wooden bat so she could beat it. I have yet to hear from her on her choice. !Splat!
I have told Jeppy that I could have a dead horse delivered right to her doorstep. I gave her a choice of an aluminum or wooden bat so she could beat it. I have yet to hear from her on her choice. !Splat!
I think cricket bats probably provide a more efficient tenderizing action, but I haven't tested that theory.
gimmethesimplelife
11-23-21, 3:03am
I have an acquaintance from my high school days who is part of the men's rights group I've mentioned before. He is absolutely certain that justice prevailed. I quickly figured I'd best agree to.disagree. it seems to me that straight Conservative Caucadian men agree that justice prevailed here.
Wow. I can't even begin to understand that. But these days I lack time to have my voice heard. Were Rittenhause African American instead? He would not be walking any time soon. I can understand the rioting in Portland but honestly? Throwing things at the Police is not especially bright. But given the brutal truth I just mentioned and the fact the many realize this truth these days - let us be glad this round of resistance did not go nationwide with rioting.
This all could have spread and caused deja vu with Summer 2020. Rob
I saw an awful picture of him grinning at a steakhouse. I guess I'd be smiling, too, but still, might be good to lie low for a bit.
Now we have poor Waukesha. Poor Wisconsin.
I have an acquaintance from my high school days who is part of the men's rights group I've mentioned before. He is absolutely certain that justice prevailed. I quickly figured I'd best agree to.disagree. it seems to me that straight Conservative Caucadian men agree that justice prevailed here.
Wow. I can't even begin to understand that. But these days I lack time to have my voice heard. Were Rittenhause African American instead? He would not be walking any time soon. I can understand the rioting in Portland but honestly? Throwing things at the Police is not especially bright. But given the brutal truth I just mentioned and the fact the many realize this truth these days - let us be glad this round of resistance did not go nationwide with rioting.
This all could have spread and caused deja vu with Summer 2020. Rob
“Brutal truth” or biased hypothetical? Recently in Pennsylvania, a black man shot and killed an unarmed white man in a bar dispute, and was acquitted based on a self-defense argument.
What do you think the jury missed that you saw more clearly?
I have an acquaintance from my high school days who is part of the men's rights group I've mentioned before. He is absolutely certain that justice prevailed. I quickly figured I'd best agree to.disagree. it seems to me that straight Conservative Caucadian men agree that justice prevailed here.
Wow. I can't even begin to understand that. But these days I lack time to have my voice heard. It can be heard here. As a straight conservative caucasian male I believe justice was served because the charges against him were for successfully using lethal force against persons attempting to use potentially lethal force against him. In order to believe justice was not served you would either have to misunderstand the charges or believe that he did not enjoy a right to defend himself.
Do you believe that he should not be afforded that right or do you believe that he should have been charged with something else in hopes he would be convicted of something else?
frugal-one
11-23-21, 9:46am
ok. So now it will be impossible to combat an active shooter because they can claim self defense…. “hey, they tried to take my gun. I was only defending myself.” I don’t see much difference here. KR was walking around with a gun no 17 yo should have possession of. His intent was to use it.
ok. So now it will be impossible to combat an active shooter because they can claim self defense…. “hey, they tried to take my gun. I was only defending myself.” I don’t see much difference here. KR was walking around with a gun no 17 yo should have possession of. His intent was to use it.
That would, or at least should, always depend on the facts of any given case. In this specific instance a jury determined that the facts supported self-defense. I don’t think you can justify convicting people of capital crimes for anything less. Your or my intuitions on what someone’s intent was isn’t really relevant.
I saw an awful picture of him grinning at a steakhouse. I guess I'd be smiling, too, but still, might be good to lie low for a bit.
Now we have poor Waukesha. Poor Wisconsin.
I lived in that town for about thirty years, and a lot of our friends were at that parade. Ridiculous rumors are flying everywhere, but I suspect as the truth eventually emerges it will be viler and more pathetic than what the gossiping can imagine.
“hey, they tried to take my gun. I was only defending myself.” I don’t see much difference here. KR was walking around with a gun no 17 yo should have possession of. His intent was to use it.
The other trial involving self-defense is the three men who tried to make a citizens arrest of a black man out for a jog. I suppose people will also compare the outcome of that trial to be biased by race, but the circumstances are very different.
I agree that a 17 yo strutting around with a long gun in a volitile situation is really dumb, but it seems like our laws allow it. Open or concealed carry of firearms is allowed by law and is common. Intent to use it in most cases may only apply to extreme circumstances. Unfortunately there are people, or possibly many people, who take advantage of the law but have poor judgement or training. Some believe that is an acceptable price to pay for the liberties allowed by the second amendment.
I lived in that town for about thirty years, and a lot of our friends were at that parade. Ridiculous rumors are flying everywhere, but I suspect as the truth eventually emerges it will be viler and more pathetic than what the gossiping can imagine.
The DA came right out and pretty much admitted they screwed up by giving the bad guy (who mowed down all the people at the parade) such a low bond. Guy has a long rap sheet going back to 1999.
The DA came right out and pretty much admitted they screwed up by giving the bad guy (who mowed down all the people at the parade) such a low bond. Guy has a long rap sheet going back to 1999.
That was the Milwaukee County DA, who has in the past advocated for “prosecutorial reform” because cash bail is “inequitable”. The guy was out on $1,000 bail for allegedly attacking a woman with his SUV. There seems to be a certain level of political CYA there, with the DA ordering a review of his bail.
The Waukesha County DA, on the other hand, has said she intends to ask for more than the alleged killer can come up with. I can tell you from long experience in local government that there is little love lost between the two jurisdictions. Goes back to the 19th century, when Waukesha broke away from Milwaukee because they objected to paying for bridge projects in “the city”.
pinkytoe
11-23-21, 12:14pm
I think we will all see Rittenhouse's immaturity play out in the days ahead. Fifteen minutes of fame.
frugal-one
11-23-21, 2:32pm
That would, or at least should, always depend on the facts of any given case. In this specific instance a jury determined that the facts supported self-defense. I don’t think you can justify convicting people of capital crimes for anything less. Your or my intuitions on what someone’s intent was isn’t really relevant.
What will the future be? Self defense for anyone carrying assault guns to outings? This case has opened a bucket of ——!
frugal-one
11-23-21, 2:33pm
That would, or at least should, always depend on the facts of any given case. In this specific instance a jury determined that the facts supported self-defense. I don’t think you can justify convicting people of capital crimes for anything less. Your or my intuitions on what someone’s intent was isn’t really relevant.
If an active shooter we all hope someone will take them down so no more lives are lost.
What will the future be? Self defense for anyone carrying assault guns to outings? This case has opened a bucket of ——!
No, self defense for anyone attacked by someone attempting to inflict death or serious injury. Just as it's always been.
If an active shooter we all hope someone will take them down so no more lives are lost.Yes we do hope someone will take down an active shooter, but in this case does that term actually apply? Are you an active shooter if you're retreating to the nearest police line after stopping a person attempting to inflict death or serious bodily harm upon yourself? If you're beaten with rocks and skateboards and have someone pointing a firearm at your head, all while you're retreating from the first violent encounter, does the active shooter term still apply or is that just a way to imply that he is a threat to persons unknown and deserves everything he gets?
In this case, Rittenhouse was lucky that so many people had taken Rob's long time advice about carrying a fully charged cell phone at protests in order to document activities. The huge volume of footage available made easy work for the jury in deciding the case in spite of all the self-serving narratives from those trying to push a racist or political agenda.
Same courtroom - Chrystul Kizer is awaiting trial or killing the man who raped and trafficked her. Hope she can use the defense. https://www.npr.org/2021/11/22/1057976496/rittenhouse-verdict-chrystul-kizer-self-defense
No, self defense for anyone attacked by someone attempting to inflict death or serious injury. Just as it's always been.
It impresses me how many people seem upset with the idea.
frugal-one
11-23-21, 4:06pm
Yes we do hope someone will take down an active shooter, but in this case does that term actually apply? Are you an active shooter if you're retreating to the nearest police line after stopping a person attempting to inflict death or serious bodily harm upon yourself? If you're beaten with rocks and skateboards and have someone pointing a firearm at your head, all while you're retreating from the first violent encounter, does the active shooter term still apply or is that just a way to imply that he is a threat to persons unknown and deserves everything he gets?
In this case, Rittenhouse was lucky that so many people had taken Rob's long time advice about carrying a fully charged cell phone at protests in order to document activities. The huge volume of footage available made easy work for the jury in deciding the case in spite of all the self-serving narratives from those trying to push a racist or political agenda.
So you think it was ok that a 17 year old from IL comes to WI to “help” by carrying an assault weapon? Just wondering….
catherine
11-23-21, 4:08pm
I've sat on a jury and decided the fate of someone who threatened an innocent civilian, and it's not easy. In fact, it was traumatic for me. I think the point here is that the legal facts and implications have to be separated from feelings and biases.
Some of what we are reacting to is a direct impact of what has been portrayed in the media: what we are reacting to is not the legality of the verdict--it's the smugness of Rittenhouse after the trial; it's the fact that as parents, many of us would not support our 17 year-old walking around in an incendiary environment with an AR-15; it's the reaction of many Conservatives that this is a big win for 2nd amendment rights.
It is maddening, but I do think the frustration is the culture divide and not the actual verdict. Objectively,none of us can say how the jury came to their verdict. If we had been there, we might have arrived at the same verdict. The maddening part is the peripheral questions about what led to this event. In my world, my 17 year old would never have even seen an AR-15, never mind brandish one at an event where their maturity would probably not align with the skills needed to navigate the event. But that's not a legal defense.
So you think it was ok that a 17 year old from IL comes to WI to “help” by carrying an assault weapon? Just wondering. His intent seems dubious.
Yes, I think it was ok for a 17 year old to help out in WI, it was well documented that he helped remove graffiti from buildings and extinguished at least one fire. I too live just a few miles from a state line and see no issue with helping out in Northern KY, it's part of my home area. As for the 'assault weapon' thing, I probably would not show up with an AR15, but then again I don't own one. I probably would show up with my 'assault pistol' for self defense purposes, those rioters are often very violent in addition to being destructive.
frugal-one
11-23-21, 4:25pm
Yeah, there were people there burning dumpsters… The local police should have handled the situation on their own. Surprises me, that you, as a former cop would encourage vigilantes.
catherine
11-23-21, 4:28pm
those rioters are often very violent in addition to being destructive.
I wonder why?
Yeah, there were people there burning dumpsters…
They burned $50,000,000 worth of dumpsters? That’s a lot of garbage.
frugal-one
11-23-21, 4:40pm
They burned $50,000,000 worth of dumpsters? That’s a lot of garbage.
So? The local police would (and should) have handled the situation.
Yeah, there were people there burning dumpsters… The local police should have handled the situation on their own. Surprises me, that you, as a former cop would encourage vigilantes.
Oh they burnt more than just dumpsters. And you're right, the police should have handled it, but they didn't because the city didn't want them involved in simple property damage, regardless of the severity. They were apparently concerned about how the media would portray their efforts.
As a former cop, or even as just an old retired guy, I would never encourage vigilantes but I do stand with anyone defending their life or businesses from the "mostly peaceful protestors" who ran amuck in Kenosha, causing damages such as these, somebody has to.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/08/25/07/32348672-8660507-Flames_roar_from_a_row_of_cars_torched_by_proteste rs_a_few_block-a-150_1598337030757.jpg
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/09/Kenosha-4.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1
https://millennialpen.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/kenosha-church-burned.jpg
catherine
11-23-21, 4:54pm
I wonder why?
This from your own post, Alan. Can you read between the lines? People are angry. And most people of the dominant culture don't see the systemic racism. So this is what you get. I'm not condoning it. It's just an extension of "let them eat cake."
4095
I too live just a few miles from a state line and see no issue with helping out in Northern KY, it's part of my home area.
I have travelled across state lines to several of the nearby states to help out. Generally I bring a chainsaw, backpack fire pump, Pulaski, McLeod, shovel, axe, PPE, food, sleeping bag, and ideally a wildland firefighting truck.
Sometimes I cross international borders too, to help out. In those cases I bring a boat, water rescue/survival suits, thermal imaging cameras, and boring things like that.
I suppose I should just leave it all to the local authorities though.
ApatheticNoMore
11-23-21, 5:21pm
Traveling with permission of local or fed government is an entirely different thing than being a vigilante. It the national guard helps out in an emergency, that is not the same thing that some individual deciding they should help out apropos of nothing. If firefighters are brought any from another state that's not the same thing, it's all known and approved of by the local/fed government itself. And it's not hard to tell the difference either, one is an organized government response (which is not to say it can't go wrong/be wrong - just because it falls within the governments sphere of responsibility, does not mean the government can do no wrong nor any screw ups) and the other is individuals taking it up on themselves. There is also of course a lot of difference between helping out by say sending food to feed people, and carrying a weapon. There is a reason the carrying a weapon stuff is the job of law enforcement.
This from your own post, Alan. Can you read between the lines? People are angry. And most people of the dominant culture don't see the systemic racism. So this is what you get. I'm not condoning it. It's just an extension of "let them eat cake."
4095The reactions we see will not solve the problem. We should start by refusing to classify people by race and proclaiming every unfortunate event as racist or a telling sign that our culture is corrupt. But that's just my opinion.
ApatheticNoMore
11-23-21, 5:25pm
We should start by refusing to classify people by race
you are taking this race is a social construct thing way too far, to a degree, but come on just because we "refuse" (what does that even mean) to classify, doesn't mean race ceases to exist in society, that any history of racial classifications somehow disappears.
catherine
11-23-21, 5:32pm
They burned $50,000,000 worth of dumpsters? That’s a lot of garbage.
Hmm, what were the lives of Rosenbaum and Huber worth? More or less than $50,000?
ETA: oops, this popped up as an auto-save. I canceled that post, but what the heck, I'll let it lie.
catherine
11-23-21, 5:33pm
race ceases to exist in society, that any history of racial classifications somehow disappears.
Very convenient for some. But systemic racism does exist and has existed for a couple of hundred of years.
Traveling with permission of local or fed government is an entirely different thing than being a vigilante.
1) It is generally frowned-upon by Those In Charge for folks to self-deploy to disaster/emergency zones. When they do, there's a good chance of them causing more trouble than they do good. Sometimes though, the local authorities simply aren't capable of responding quickly enough to resolve the situation. (For instance, we lost the only road to a big chunk of our island last week in the big storm, isolating the community there from supplies, medical care, and employment - the folks there, bless their hearts, fired up their sawmill and brought out some heavy equipment, and within a short period of time had a bridge and a road constructed. The Officials estimate the county road department may take a month to actually "do it right"....)
2) What precisely is a "vigilante"? Our community was being preyed upon by a criminal a few years back. It made the national news. Among other things, he was breaking into the businesses in our small village, stealing items, and trashing the store. These were all small family-owned business, and they simply couldn't bear the losses. We also tend to only have a single sheriff's deputy here on duty, and nobody on duty for 6 hours in the evening. So, the local merchants posted armed guards in the village, with night vision and cameras. Were they "vigilantes"? The predation stopped, that's for sure. When state and federal forces arrived here to try to catch the guy, they were unsuccessful, and seemingly increased his pace of destruction. He fled from the island shortly after armed citizens were waiting for him though.
Hmm, what were the lives of Rosenbaum and Huber worth? More or less than $50,000?
ETA: oops, this popped up as an auto-save. I canceled that post, but what the heck, I'll let it lie.
They weren’t killed over property. They were killed because they attacked an armed man.
So those of you who think the “vigilantes” should have stayed home - do you include business owners trying to protect their businesses? Remember the rooftop Koreans from the 1992 LA riots. They had ARs, I believe.
So those of you who think the “vigilantes” should have stayed home - do you include business owners trying to protect their businesses? Remember the rooftop Koreans from the 1992 LA riots. They had ARs, I believe.
Yeah, the 'vigilante' argument is a little more self serving than being actually useful. Society has a long history of people standing up and volunteering to help solve a problem or mitigate destruction. I remember after 9/11 our military branches were inundated with volunteers wishing to do their part in protecting our country, I guess they were all 'vigilantes' too.
They weren’t killed over property. They were killed because they attacked an armed man.
And if the armed man would have stayed at home, no one would have been killed and the property would be just as destroyed?
I'm not convinced of the need or use of a lone untrained person of any age acting in the role of vigilante among an aggitated crowd, though I seem to have a strange appreciation for the Black Panthers.
Teacher Terry
11-23-21, 7:21pm
Roger you are right that two people would still be alive if that kid had stayed home.
ApatheticNoMore
11-23-21, 7:34pm
I remember after 9/11 our military branches were inundated with volunteers wishing to do their part in protecting our country, I guess they were all 'vigilantes' too.
noone confuses volunteering for the military with vigilantism. Were the wars misguided, yes, but that's an entirely different subject.
noone confuses volunteering for the military with vigilantism.
But they do confuse volunteering to help preserve order and mitigate damages with vigilantism. Strange that...
I was surprised to see so few people in the Wisconsin courtroom wearing masks when I was told I would have to wear one for jury duty no ifs, ands or buts.
Georgia courtrooms also appear to be mask optional given images from the Arbery trial.
Georgia has a lower community spread of covid than Massachusetts now. Masks don't work!!
frugal-one
11-23-21, 7:49pm
I have travelled across state lines to several of the nearby states to help out. Generally I bring a chainsaw, backpack fire pump, Pulaski, McLeod, shovel, axe, PPE, food, sleeping bag, and ideally a wildland firefighting truck.
Sometimes I cross international borders too, to help out. In those cases I bring a boat, water rescue/survival suits, thermal imaging cameras, and boring things like that.
I suppose I should just leave it all to the local authorities though.
You have different credentials than a 17 year old boy. There is no comparison.
frugal-one
11-23-21, 7:50pm
Oh they burnt more than just dumpsters. And you're right, the police should have handled it, but they didn't because the city didn't want them involved in simple property damage, regardless of the severity. They were apparently concerned about how the media would portray their efforts.
As a former cop, or even as just an old retired guy, I would never encourage vigilantes but I do stand with anyone defending their life or businesses from the "mostly peaceful protestors" who ran amuck in Kenosha, causing damages such as these, somebody has to.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/08/25/07/32348672-8660507-Flames_roar_from_a_row_of_cars_torched_by_proteste rs_a_few_block-a-150_1598337030757.jpg
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/09/Kenosha-4.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1
https://millennialpen.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/kenosha-church-burned.jpg
THEIR is the operative word!
frugal-one
11-23-21, 7:59pm
Dictionary
vig·i·lan·te
/ˌvijəˈlan(t)ē/
noun: vigilante; plural noun: vigilantes
a member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate.
ApatheticNoMore
11-23-21, 7:59pm
But they do confuse volunteering to help preserve order and mitigate damages with vigilantism. Strange that...
yea imagining you are your own police force is vigilantism.
Roger you are right that two people would still be alive if that kid had stayed home.
They would also still be alive if they had stayed home.
yea imagining you are your own police force is vigilantism.
Weren’t the people attacking Rittenhouse also acting as vigilantes?
They would also still be alive if they had stayed home.
That's also true.
That's also true.
In a gathering of idiots, idiotic things are likely to happen.
In a gathering of idiots, idiotic things are likely to happen.
I think the term idiot better describes both over the word vigilante.
Weren’t the people attacking Rittenhouse also acting as vigilantes?
Maybe they felt threatened by a stupid white kid running around with a large gun at a protest about black civil rights? I certainly would. But I'm not brave enough to try and be a hero. I'd be running as fast as I could in the opposite direction so that I didn't end up like his damn victims.
Maybe they felt threatened by a stupid white kid running around with a large gun at a protest about black civil rights? I certainly would. But I'm not brave enough to try and be a hero.
I suspect you wouldn't be out at 11pm after the curfew when the streets are on fire too.
When I unexpectedly stepped out of a building in a major city a couple of years back and found the streets quite disorderly, cars on fire, and that sort of thing, well, I changed my plans immediately and got my family and I the heck out of the way.
https://i.cbc.ca/1.1765173.1379203599!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/vancouver-riot.jpg
gimmethesimplelife
11-24-21, 2:30am
It can be heard here. As a straight conservative caucasian male I believe justice was served because the charges against him were for successfully using lethal force against persons attempting to use potentially lethal force against him. In order to believe justice was not served you would either have to misunderstand the charges or believe that he did not enjoy a right to defend himself.
Do you believe that he should not be afforded that right or do you believe that he should have been charged with something else in hopes he would be convicted of something else?My point still remains. Were Rittenhouse African American instead, he'd likely be looking at many years in prison. This is why so many are angered by this verdict.
Rob
gimmethesimplelife
11-24-21, 2:31am
I suspect you wouldn't be out at 11pm after the curfew when the streets are on fire too.
When I unexpectedly stepped out of a building in a major city a couple of years back and found the streets quite disorderly, cars on fire, and that sort of thing, well, I changed my plans immediately and got my family and I the heck out of the way.
https://i.cbc.ca/1.1765173.1379203599!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/vancouver-riot.jpgWas this after a hockey game in Vancouver? Rob
frugal-one
11-24-21, 6:19am
Weren’t the people attacking Rittenhouse also acting as vigilantes?
Rittenhouse in all videos I have seen, carrying an assault weapon, looking for trouble to be a threat to all around him. This situation reminds me of the plane that went down over the Potomac… guys brandishing knife cutters … and passengers trying to disarm “the threat”. Albeit an AR15 is considerably more contentious! IMO anyone walking around with an AR15 is looking for trouble and a threat to those around them considering how many rounds could be expended in a short period of time.
And, as you indicated above Rittenhouse was a vigilante.
My point still remains. Were Rittenhouse African American instead, he'd likely be looking at many years in prison. This is why so many are angered by this verdict.
RobI'm not sure what your point was other than you saying you were disappointed by the verdict. Now that I see that disappointment is based on race rather than the facts of the case I'm curious, if Rittenhouse had been an African American and found not guilty of all charges, would you still be disappointed?
[/B]
Rittenhouse in all videos I have seen, carrying an assault weapon, looking for trouble to be a threat to all around him. This situation reminds me of the plane that went down over the Potomac… guys brandishing knife cutters … and passengers trying to disarm “the threat”. Albeit an AR15 is considerably more contentious! IMO anyone walking around with an AR15 is looking for trouble and a threat to those around them considering how many rounds could be expended in a short period of time.
And, as you indicated above Rittenhouse was a vigilante.
So they were the good kind of vigilante and he was the bad kind? It’s just a matter of how you perceive a “threat”? In your view, anyone carrying a specific type of rifle must be “looking for trouble”, and therefore a legitimate target?
My point still remains. Were Rittenhouse African American instead, he'd likely be looking at many years in prison. This is why so many are angered by this verdict.
Rob
Although I don't agree at all, I now understand the anger better. We will never know the outcome under those circumstances, but it seems rather pointless to play the what if race card in every instance of police or domestic violence.
There are enough real life instances where one of the players actually is African American to draw conclusions about legal system bias, if it exists.
My point still remains. Were Rittenhouse African American instead, he'd likely be looking at many years in prison. This is why so many are angered by this verdict.
Rob
Angered because of an imagined injustice that exists only as a hypothetical? Isn’t that taking racial essentialism to a weird level of abstraction?
iris lilies
11-24-21, 12:00pm
Angered because of an imagined injustice that exists only as a hypothetical? Isn’t that taking racial essentialism to a weird level of abstraction?
Now y’all are beginning to see the environment in which I’ve lived for decades now.
In St. Louis everything is about race even when it’s not.
Now y’all are beginning to see the environment in which I’ve lived for decades now.
In St. Louis everything is about race even when it’s not.
In Chicago/Cook County, as well.
For all their bleating about equality, they actually seem to want “separate but equal” everything. Plessy v Ferguson.
Whitey is evil. Plain and simple. Blacks are not to be held responsible for ANYTHING they do. It’s all whitey’s fault.
Maybe black people today need to get at the root cause of so many of these demontrations, cops that they believe use guns too often. The black panthers worked toward that end in California back in the 60’s. Cell phone cameras didn’t exist, of course. So that started asserting their second amendment rights while supervising police behavior in their community and also took their guns to the California state house. As a result the NRA, with Ronald Reagan’s support as governor got the legislature to pass some of the strictest gun control laws in the state.
https://www.history.com/.amp/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act
The black panthers worked toward that end in California back in the 60’s.... As a result the NRA, with Ronald Reagan’s support as governor got the legislature to pass some of the strictest gun control laws in the state.
Sssshhhh!
We're not supposed to talk about the racist origin of gun control in the USA.
[/B]
This situation reminds me of the plane that went down over the Potomac… guys brandishing knife cutters … and passengers trying to disarm “the threat”.
I'm curious. When there are armed people on a plane attempting to take it over, are the passengers supposed to call 911 and wait for police response?
So they were the good kind of vigilante and he was the bad kind? It’s just a matter of how you perceive a “threat”?
People seem to use "vigilante" for its negative connotations.
In the example I gave up-thread, were my village's business owners and property owners naughty evil vigilantes when they decided to provide security for their businesses when we were being victimized?
Should they have instead relied upon the very very sparse and overworked law enforcement here to help? Knowing full well that the help would consist simply of filling out a police report for insurance purposes?
Would it have been OK if, instead of providing security themselves, they had hired guards?
Is it illegitimate for a citizen to use force in defense of themself, or their property and livelihood?
People seem to use "vigilante" for its negative connotations.
In the example I gave up-thread, were my village's business owners and property owners naughty evil vigilantes when they decided to provide security for their businesses when we were being victimized?
Should they have instead relied upon the very very sparse and overworked law enforcement here to help? Knowing full well that the help would consist simply of filling out a police report for insurance purposes?
Would it have been OK if, instead of providing security themselves, they had hired guards?
Is it illegitimate for a citizen to use force in defense of themself, or their property and livelihood?
My answer to all your questions would be “no”, although I would probably draw the line at attacking someone based on my assumption that they were “looking for trouble”.
[/B]
IMO anyone walking around with an AR15 is looking for trouble and a threat to those around them considering how many rounds could be expended in a short period of time.
I bring along a rifle to stay out of trouble, not to look for it. I've had a rifle with me nearly every time I have visited the mainland in the past two decades. Nobody has noticed, no rounds were expended.
I do rather enjoy the constant breathless incantation of "AR15" to summon up images of evil and destruction, but that's silly. It is essentially the most commonly-sold and owned rifle in the USA and the design has been around for 65 years. It's just the poster-boy for people who don't know any better.
iris lilies
11-24-21, 2:48pm
I’m not much interested in labels including the game of who is a vigilante and who isn’t.
We’ve had several iterations of a neighborhood night patrol here over past decades. In its early days it was generally considered useful, and many people participated for several years. Then interest dropped off. Leadership disappeared.
It was started up two times after that and the last time fizzled out fairly quickly. But also, the last time the neighborhood president and at least one person on the board were openly hostile to the idea—Because their brown children might be targeted by these vigilantes.
hoo-Kay!
These days I just don’t care if someone calls me a vigilante, a racist, a white supremacist. Whatever.
When I was on a night patrol, it was a fun time to catch up with the neighbor I was riding with. Our assignment was to drive around the neighborhood for two hours covering all streets and alleys, being eyes and ears to spot anything that might be trouble. And then call the police. My friend Sue and I had some fun times, and they called us “Cagney and Lacey.” Our instructions were to never get out of the car, but we did on a couple of occasions, one time when the cops were there making an arrest. It was really funny experience that I won’t go into it because you had to be there. But relax, it was a drunk white college kid being arrested so no brown people were injured in this incident.
I will emphasize that neither Sue, nor I, nor anyone I ever rode with in a patrol carried arms. Sometimes we had a dog in the back.
My answer to all your questions would be “no”, although I would probably draw the line at attacking someone based on my assumption that they were “looking for trouble”.
I also think the "we're gonna make us a citizen's arrest, boy howdie" approach has some distinct flaws.
frugal-one
11-24-21, 3:51pm
I'm curious. When there are armed people on a plane attempting to take it over, are the passengers supposed to call 911 and wait for police response?
You missed the point entirely.
I also think the "we're gonna make us a citizen's arrest, boy howdie" approach has some distinct flaws.
And appearently carries a risk of life in prison for a flawed approach.
frugal-one
11-24-21, 4:04pm
So they were the good kind of vigilante and he was the bad kind? It’s just a matter of how you perceive a “threat”? In your view, anyone carrying a specific type of rifle must be “looking for trouble”, and therefore a legitimate target?
Rittenhouse was looking for trouble. 17 yo kid coming across state lines who has another get the gun for him…. an assault weapon that expels multiple rounds not just any gun mind you but one that expends multiple rounds. The plane that flew over PA had people taking matters into their own hands because there was no recourse….ie enough or any (?) police presence. No they were not vigilantes. See definition previously cited.
frugal-one
11-24-21, 4:08pm
People seem to use "vigilante" for its negative connotations.
In the example I gave up-thread, were my village's business owners and property owners naughty evil vigilantes when they decided to provide security for their businesses when we were being victimized?
Should they have instead relied upon the very very sparse and overworked law enforcement here to help? Knowing full well that the help would consist simply of filling out a police report for insurance purposes?
Would it have been OK if, instead of providing security themselves, they had hired guards?
Is it illegitimate for a citizen to use force in defense of themself, or their property and livelihood?
Yes in bold. Rittenhouse did not know anyone or business.
frugal-one
11-24-21, 4:13pm
I bring along a rifle to stay out of trouble, not to look for it. I've had a rifle with me nearly every time I have visited the mainland in the past two decades. Nobody has noticed, no rounds were expended.
I do rather enjoy the constant breathless incantation of "AR15" to summon up images of evil and destruction, but that's silly. It is essentially the most commonly-sold and owned rifle in the USA and the design has been around for 65 years. It's just the poster-boy for people who don't know any better.
BS… who needs a gun that shoots that many rounds while attending a protest? Rittenhouse was making a statement by carrying that weapon. It was not obvious his intent.
You bringing a weapon where nobody noticed is different than this situation.
frugal-one
11-24-21, 4:17pm
And appearently carries a risk of life in prison for a flawed approach.
Yah, the Arbery case decided today is a prime example.
frugal-one
11-24-21, 4:18pm
So they were the good kind of vigilante and he was the bad kind? It’s just a matter of how you perceive a “threat”? In your view, anyone carrying a specific type of rifle must be “looking for trouble”, and therefore a legitimate target?
Rittenhouse was looking for trouble. 17 yo kid coming across state lines who has another get the gun for him…. an assault weapon that expels multiple rounds not just any gun mind you but one that expends multiple rounds. The plane that flew over PA had people taking matters into their own hands because there was no recourse….ie enough or any (?) police presence. No they were not vigilantes. See definition previously cited.
Your “looking for trouble” argument reminds me of the old “If she dressed like that, she was looking for it” trope.
Teacher Terry
11-26-21, 1:12pm
As my youngest son said he may not be guilty according to the law but I don’t want that nut job kid living anywhere near me.
As my youngest son said he may not be guilty according to the law but I don’t want that nut job kid living anywhere near me.
You live in NV. I’m sure there are quite a few people around you that have guns and have carry permits. Does that freak you out too?
iris lilies
11-26-21, 1:55pm
Your “looking for trouble” argument reminds me of the old “If she dressed like that, she was looking for it” trope.
Living in the urban core as I do, we have many teenagers carrying guns none of them legally carried. I guess they are vigilantes of a different sort.
gimmethesimplelife
11-26-21, 5:36pm
As my youngest son said he may not be guilty according to the law but I don’t want that nut job kid living anywhere near me.Exactly!!! Rob
Your “looking for trouble” argument reminds me of the old “If she dressed like that, she was looking for it” trope.
Maybe if the woman you are maligning showed up dressed like that and brought a big gun to deal with anyone that figured they were a slut who deserved to be treated badly.
Has anyone seen this video, made right after the verdict, by the CNN correspondent who had been covering the trial?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/11/21/cnn_correspondent_we_learned_a_lot_during_rittenho use_trial.html
I read it may have been made because of calls by Alan Dershowitz and others that CNN and other MSM outlets be sued by KR for defamation.
It does seem a bit late for CNN to be sharing this with us. Those of us who didn't watch the trial day by day relied on the summaries we heard and read.
All of this was news to me as well:
https://nypost.com/2021/11/17/10-debunked-heinous-lies-about-kyle-rittenhouse-devine/
Frankly, I don't know what to believe and would welcome your opinions.
Yes, I was aware of Rittenhouse having relatives in Kenosha, etc. I read other sources besides the MSM.
ApatheticNoMore
11-27-21, 2:27am
Seems a lot of legalese, yea it's a legal trial so hey legalese, but he already got off. I mean most people already concede the case was decided on narrow technicalities and that is just more but it's still messed up.
frugal-one
11-27-21, 3:31am
Your “looking for trouble” argument reminds me of the old “If she dressed like that, she was looking for it” trope.
Not comparable at all. And, I don’t agree at all with the dress comment.
frugal-one
11-27-21, 3:37am
real clear politics is a right wing Trump supporting website
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealClearPolitics
ApatheticNoMore
11-27-21, 3:49am
real clear politics is a right wing Trump supporting website
haha, it was less bad than the ny post article to get the point across though, I didn't fly right off immediately into crazyville where it was all a giant class conspiracy, somehow.
real clear politics is a right wing Trump supporting website
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealClearPolitics
But then there are these assessments:
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/real-clear-politics
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/real-clear-politics/
In any case, I would not have seen CNN's belated informational video if I hadn't come upon the RCP post. I've relied heavily on the New York Times since I was a teenager, but I also rely on knowing their biases and, more and more, noticing their omissions.
iris lilies
11-28-21, 2:17am
real clear politics is a right wing Trump supporting website
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealClearPolitics
You know that this link provided by Simone is showing actual CNN footage, right?
You know that this link provided by Simone is showing actual CNN footage, right?
I've long felt that people often minimize articles or opinion pieces based simply upon their biases. In this case I think what they should be wondering is why did they not see this admission in their favorite news sources? There's something to be learned from that.
iris lilies
11-28-21, 10:10am
But then there are these assessments:
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/real-clear-politics
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/real-clear-politics/
In any case, I would not have seen CNN's belated informational video if I hadn't come upon the RCP post. I've relied heavily on the New York Times since I was a teenager, but I also rely on knowing their biases and, more and more, noticing their omissions.
Good for you. We all have to do some careful screening of our news sources. They all have bias, we just have to remember their bias.
I don’t watch tv news at all and haven’t in decades, and I seldom consume traditional news outlet sources any more.
It’s a great time for selective perception along imaginary tribal lines. A riot can be a mostly peaceful demonstration or an insurrection, depending on your point of view. One idiot can shoot a few other idiots at a place none of them should be, and all of them get to be heroes in somebody’s eyes and deadly threats in others’.
There’s obviously money to be made in the bias confirmation business.
ApatheticNoMore
11-28-21, 1:49pm
To say they shouldn't be there is ridiculous. People have a right to protest. But going around a protest as a civilian openly brandishing a gun, who does that. Of course it's intimidating, but the kid wasn't the brightest bulb. But it's like I showed up at a protest with a backpack that looked like it had a bomb. It would be like okay, this just escalated from protest to potential terrorism incident.
To say they shouldn't be there is ridiculous. People have a right to protest. But going around a protest as a civilian openly brandishing a gun, who does that. Of course it's intimidating, but the kid wasn't the brightest bulb. But it's like I showed up at a protest with a backpack that looked like it had a bomb.
There was a curfew in force, which in light of the massive property damage the locals suffered seems to have been well justified. Nobody was supposed to be there. It was a time for idiots to do idiotic things.
There was a curfew in force, which in light of the massive property damage the locals suffered seems to have been well justified. Nobody was supposed to be there. It was a time for idiots to do idiotic things.
And the idiot child with the gun did the most idiotic thing of all. Two people will never go home again because of it. He’s the poster child for why we need to have harsh penalties for straw man gun sales. If we did maybe the idiot that provided him the gun would have thought twice. Of course it’s also possible that if we did he would now be a whiny bitch begging for defense money in a go fund me.
iris lilies
11-28-21, 3:36pm
To say they shouldn't be there is ridiculous. People have a right to protest. But going around a protest as a civilian openly brandishing a gun, who does that. Of course it's intimidating, but the kid wasn't the brightest bulb. But it's like I showed up at a protest with a backpack that looked like it had a bomb. It would be like okay, this just escalated from protest to potential terrorism incident.
you don’t get it. Cops asked people to stay away. ALL people, black, white, vigilante, and innocent flowers spreading truth and justice.ALL.
peaceful protesting on public land is fine. This wasn’t that.
peaceful protesting on public land is fine. This wasn’t that.
Unless the president wants to cross the street to do a sacrilegious photo op with an upside down bible. Then the military gets called out to tear gas you out of the way.
Unless the president wants to cross the street to do a sacrilegious photo op with an upside down bible. Then the military gets called out to tear gas you out of the way.
What is a sacrilegious photo op?
And the idiot child with the gun did the most idiotic thing of all. Two people will never go home again because of it. He’s the poster child for why we need to have harsh penalties for straw man gun sales. If we did maybe the idiot that provided him the gun would have thought twice. Of course it’s also possible that if we did he would now be a whiny bitch begging for defense money in a go fund me.
Whether chasing and attacking an idiot child with a gun is a superior brand of idiocy is, I suppose, a fairly subjective determination. The jury in this case seems to have been fairly clear as to who was attacking who.
In my view, if someone chooses to jump off a cliff, you don’t blame the cliff.
gimmethesimplelife
11-28-21, 9:56pm
What is a sacrilegious photo op?The bible was upside down? Seriously? This little tidbit I was unaware of. Ay carumba, a large number of people still voted for DJT regardless. What this says about US society is depressing to contemplate. Rob
What is a sacrilegious photo op?
One where a non-religious, thrice married, grab 'em by the p**** kind of guy holds up a bible in front of a church and pretends to be religious. Of course maybe the bible being upside down has similar meaning to when the flag is upside down.
Whether chasing and attacking an idiot child with a gun is a superior brand of idiocy is, I suppose, a fairly subjective determination. The jury in this case seems to have been fairly clear as to who was attacking who.
In my view, if someone chooses to jump off a cliff, you don’t blame the cliff.
At the end of the day if the idiot child hadn't been there no one would've gone to the morgue that night.
The jury appears to have made the correct decision from a legal perspective. But as yossarian pointed out, maybe our laws are flawed.
At the end of the day if the idiot child hadn't been there no one would've gone to the morgue that night.
The jury appears to have made the correct decision from a legal perspective. But as yossarian pointed out, maybe our laws are flawed.
And it is equally true that if his attackers hadn’t been there, or hadn’t pursued and attacked him, then no one would have gone to the morgue that night.
I don’t see it as a flaw in our laws that being in the wrong place at the wrong time isn’t a capital crime.
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