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razz
12-15-21, 6:52pm
Has anyone explored this topic, What is reality, for personal interest?
My library has a volume by Arlo Rovelli who gives an interesting historical introduction to the topic by going back to 450 BCE to Democritus who saw the world of matter as made up of atoms. Plato et al were not impressed.

Any books to suggest that have discussed this topic for the general audienc in understandable terms?
Rovelli is one that has been recommended. Just started reading it.

Rogar
12-15-21, 7:11pm
I routinely listen to the Sam Harris podcast, making sense, which covers different topics, but centers on philisophy and the mind. Might not be what you're looking for but I like it. He's somewhat renowned in his field.

https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes

catherine
12-15-21, 7:47pm
Wow. Too late in the day for me to ponder that question! :)

To test my basic, sophomoric perception of reality, I looked up books on the topic and came up with this: http://www.amreading.com/2016/08/17/five-books-to-challenge-your-perception-of-reality/

I think Reality is in the eye of the beholder. I think in that classic story about the elephant and the 5 blind men, The elephant is Reality. I most often read about Reality when I'm reading spiritual books about non-duality and mysticism.

But that's as far as I'm taking this topic at the moment. I'm interested in hearing other responses, though.

JaneV2.0
12-15-21, 9:55pm
Some think we're "living" in a simulation--something like a video game. If so, my gamer has long since lost interest.

happystuff
12-16-21, 9:28am
What is reality? This is going to be an interesting thread!

Since the study (and practice) of Buddhism is learning to see things as they really are (i.e. emptiness), I can only say that I an still learning.

If it is a big video game, I think my gamer is out to lunch with Jane's. >8)

iris lilies
12-16-21, 11:00am
I routinely listen to the Sam Harris podcast, making sense, which covers different topics, but centers on philisophy and the mind. Might not be what you're looking for but I like it. He's somewhat renowned in his field.

https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes

I listened recently to a couple of the free parts of Sam Harris podcasts, but you have to subscribe to hear the entire thing.

catherine
12-16-21, 11:37am
If it is a big video game, I think my gamer is out to lunch with Jane's. >8)

Yeah, me too, but who knows? Maybe we're all either living in a version of The Matrix or The Truman Show.

bae
12-16-21, 12:14pm
I'm waiting for a new software update.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis

razz
12-16-21, 1:10pm
Bae, I admit that I got lost along the way reading that link. The one question on simulation - who or what or where is that consciousness needed to create the simulation. Others in the link raised that as well.
A simulation would be similar to Jane's thinking.

Reality according to definition is not a simulation:
noun
The quality or state of being actual or true.
One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual.
The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.

It is this actuality or truth that I am trying to understand, it seems

happystuff
12-16-21, 1:21pm
Bae, I admit that I got lost along the way reading that link. The one question on simulation - who or what or where is that consciousness needed to create the simulation. Others in the link raised that as well.
A simulation would be similar to Jane's thinking.

Reality according to definition is not a simulation:
noun
The quality or state of being actual or true.
One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual.
The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.

It is this actuality or truth that I am trying to understand, it seems

Your post led me to look up the definition of actual:

1. existing in fact; typically as contrasted with what was intended, expected, or believed.
"the estimate was much less than the actual cost"

2. existing now; current.

This leads me to the conclusion that reality = actual but does not = belief. I guess in a non-material sense, belief could be viewed as not real...?

More interesting food for thought.

ApatheticNoMore
12-16-21, 1:32pm
We HOPE we are living in a simulation maybe. The scary part is we might not be, and this might actually be real! :0! :0! :0!

Yppej
12-16-21, 2:27pm
Reality is what the medical pharma military governmental industrial complex tells you it is, and don't you dare question it or you will be disparaged as a Russian troll.

LDAHL
12-16-21, 6:27pm
I really liked “A Beginner’s Guide to Reality” by Jim Baggott. It’s a fun read.

bae
12-16-21, 7:42pm
Reality is what the medical pharma military governmental industrial complex tells you it is, and don't you dare question it or you will be disparaged as a Russian troll.

https://briandavidcasey.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/fremont-troll-corona-virus.jpg

mschrisgo2
12-17-21, 9:38pm
Bae, I love the troll! Yes, I’ve seen it in person.

JaneV2.0
12-17-21, 10:01pm
Very near to Lenin and a missile. That VW is looking the worse for wear. Fremont has a vibe.

Simone
12-17-21, 11:58pm
I routinely listen to the Sam Harris podcast, making sense, which covers different topics, but centers on philisophy and the mind. Might not be what you're looking for but I like it. He's somewhat renowned in his field.

https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes

+1

Simone
12-18-21, 12:05am
I listened recently to a couple of the free parts of Sam Harris podcasts, but you have to subscribe to hear the entire thing.

IL, I just finished reading the "whiny whine" thread and was wishing the whole time that more people could listen to Sam Harris's latest podcast
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/270-what-have-we-learned-from-the-pandemic

Since he regards this one as a PSA, you can listen to at least the first hour. It's definitely a help in maintaining one's grip on the reality of Covid.

Rogar
12-18-21, 12:55pm
I have been reading Why We Sleep, a book about sleep by a guy who has sudied it for decades. Well reviewed and popular. He writes about how the brain waves during REM sleep, the time when we dream, are very similar to our waking brain waves. He also gets into lucid dreaming a little bit where we can direct or control dreams. It sort of make you wonder about the reality we have in our dream state, a mostly black hole of forgetfulness when we're awake. Two concepts of reality that are not very aware of each other, and who's to say one is real and the other not.

I supose sci-fi has covered variations of the story, some possibly belivable.

Rogar
12-18-21, 12:56pm
IL, I just finished reading the "whiny whine" thread and was wishing the whole time that more people could listen to Sam Harris's latest podcast
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/270-what-have-we-learned-from-the-pandemic

Since he regards this one as a PSA, you can listen to at least the first hour. It's definitely a help in maintaining one's grip on the reality of Covid.

Yes,I really like that one.

happystuff
12-18-21, 1:44pm
I have been reading Why We Sleep, a book about sleep by a guy who has sudied it for decades. Well reviewed and popular. He writes about how the brain waves during REM sleep, the time when we dream, are very similar to our waking brain waves. He also gets into lucid dreaming a little bit where we can direct or control dreams. It sort of make you wonder about the reality we have in our dream state, a mostly black hole of forgetfulness when we're awake. Two concepts of reality that are not very aware of each other, and who's to say one is real and the other not.

I supose sci-fi has covered variations of the story, some possibly belivable.

This made me think... how much of our brain does the average human use? I know it used to be a very low percentage. Has it increased any? Off to Google! LOL

LDAHL
12-19-21, 2:37pm
You read that only some small portion of the human brain is “used”, but I wonder if that may in part be an artifact of our inability to measure which portions are used for which purposes. Could it be that we simply have only a limited understanding of everything the brain does at this point? I find it difficult to understand how our evolution could produce such inefficiency.

herbgeek
12-19-21, 6:10pm
I know it used to be a very low percentage.

Nope, urban legend https://www.thoughtco.com/percentage-of-human-brain-used-4159438

Rogar
12-19-21, 6:51pm
I think there are large gaps between the knowledge of the chemical and biological functions of the brain and what we think of as conciousness. I can't recall if this is the man I've read about earier of if there are more. They are calling this radical plasticity, but probably the more common examples are stoke victims where new parts of the brain learn skills that the damaged portion is not long capable of.

"A French man who lives a relatively normal, healthy life - despite damaging 90 percent of his brain - is causing scientists to rethink what it is from a biological perspective that makes us conscious.

He only went to the doctor complaining of mild weakness in his left leg, when brain scans revealed that his skull was mostly filled with fluid, leaving just a thin outer layer of actual brain tissue, with the internal part of his brain almost totally eroded away."

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-who-lives-without-90-of-his-brain-is-challenging-our-understanding-of-consciousness

razz
12-19-21, 7:02pm
is it possible that the brain is not that important, consciousness is innate to all but has been assigned to the brain. Remember the question in the OP - what is reality?

JaneV2.0
12-19-21, 8:51pm
I've heard/read it postulated that the brain is hardware, while consciousness is software. personally, I would lean toward that hypothesis if by software, you mean "in the cloud."

LDAHL
12-20-21, 8:36am
is it possible that the brain is not that important, consciousness is innate to all but has been assigned to the brain. Remember the question in the OP - what is reality?

While smarter people than me haven’t solved the mind/body problem, I don’t know of any evidence of consciousness in people without functioning brains. On the other hand, I don’t know if we all mean the same thing when we talk about “consciousness”.

happystuff
12-20-21, 12:07pm
I knew this was going to be an interesting thread!

Rogar
12-20-21, 12:12pm
While smarter people than me haven’t solved the mind/body problem, I don’t know of any evidence of consciousness in people without functioning brains. On the other hand, I don’t know if we all mean the same thing when we talk about “consciousness”.

Well, there are the near death experiences where the brain is flat line and people can recall details about their operating rooms or other things going on around them that would seem impossible. Though I'm not sure what it all means, but they seem well documented.

LDAHL
12-20-21, 1:05pm
Well, there are the near death experiences where the brain is flat line and people can recall details about their operating rooms or other things going on around them that would seem impossible. Though I'm not sure what it all means, but they seem well documented.

But couldn’t that phenomenon also be a result of the imperfect means available to us for measuring brain death?

Rogar
12-20-21, 1:18pm
But couldn’t that phenomenon also be a result of the imperfect means available to us for measuring brain death?

Could be. Though it doesn't explain memory of accurate visual images encountered when a person is at the least unconcious, if not brain dead. Personally, I wouldn't totally discount it as a possbility. There is quite a large volume of near death documented cases that seem to defy explanation, including the old "go to the light" experience.

beckyliz
12-20-21, 1:47pm
I've been watching some near death experiences videos on YouTube. I find them fascinating. Are they real? If the posters are to be believed, they think so. Are the posters to be believed? Hard to say. Some seem to be very credible. I guess it would be up to folks who actually know them - both before and after the NDE, to tell us of the experience has really changed them.

Lots we don't know about the brain - hallucinations seem real to the person experiencing them. My DH is mid-staged Alzheimer's and starting to have mild hallucinations/dreams. I think his dream state seems to be real to him at times. Saturday night, he woke me up by calling my name. He was standing in our bedroom doorway. He said, "you disappeared." I said, "No, I've been sleeping here." He said, "You told me I had to talk to a man." So far, I've been able to convince him that I'm right. Another example of brain weirdness - he's had congestion, so I've been giving him Nyquil so we both can sleep. He's been talking in his sleep and seems to be more articulate asleep than awake!

JaneV2.0
12-20-21, 2:14pm
Skeptics always tie themselves in knots trying to blame hallucinations, anoxia, and anything but a phenomenon they don't understand for the near-death phenomenon.

My mother had several in the month or so preceding her death. My uber-practical father didn't believe any of it. Presumably, he changed his mind when it was his turn and his (dead) parents came to fetch him a few days before he passed away.

LDAHL
12-20-21, 3:32pm
I’m the first to admit there is more in heaven and earth than is dream’t of in my philosophy (or even my physiology), but I am more comfortable with evidence than anecdote. Not that I wouldn’t be delighted to hear there was some level of proof for the immortality of the soul.

Rogar
12-20-21, 4:20pm
I’m the first to admit there is more in heaven and earth than is dream’t of in my philosophy (or even my physiology), but I am more comfortable with evidence than anecdote. Not that I wouldn’t be delighted to hear there was some level of proof for the immortality of the soul.

I'm keeping my options open. Given the case of conclusive evidence of a glorious afterlife, many would probably enter that realm earlier than a natural demise to escape their earthly pain.

LDAHL
12-20-21, 4:26pm
I'm keeping my options open. Given the case of conclusive evidence of a glorious afterlife, many would probably enter that realm earlier than a natural demise to escape their earthly pain.

Unless it also emerges that “the Almighty has fix’d his canon against self-slaughter”.

Pascal’s wager may be a good hedge position.

Teacher Terry
12-20-21, 4:43pm
Becky, I would consult a lawyer now with expertise in elder care because eventually people with Alzheimer’s end up in homes. It becomes beyond one person’s capability to care for a person. A friend of mine in Texas with the help of a lawyer was able to shelter much of his assets. One reason my mom kept my dad home for 14 years is that she would have been impoverished. I know much has changed since then. You deserve to have a decent retirement too. I really feel sorry for both you and your husband. I hate the disease with a passion.

Rogar
12-20-21, 7:32pm
Pascal’s wager may be a good hedge position.

When it comes to the after life I tend to think of a Schrodinger's Cat analogy.

JaneV2.0
12-20-21, 8:12pm
I'm sure I've mentioned Ian Stevenson before. He was a medically-trained psychiatrist who studied the phenomenon of reincarnation extensively. I once requested an inter-library loan so I could peruse the two (giant) volumes of his master work. My working hypothesis is that our essence (soul, spirit) is eternal and may reincarnate. My personal experiences only back that hypothesis up. Anecdotes are what we have to work with until we figure out how to measure the phenomenon in question--they give us direction.

beckyliz
12-21-21, 2:08pm
Becky, I would consult a lawyer now with expertise in elder care because eventually people with Alzheimer’s end up in homes. It becomes beyond one person’s capability to care for a person. A friend of mine in Texas with the help of a lawyer was able to shelter much of his assets. One reason my mom kept my dad home for 14 years is that she would have been impoverished. I know much has changed since then. You deserve to have a decent retirement too. I really feel sorry for both you and your husband. I hate the disease with a passion.

Took care of the legal stuff 3 years ago. We spent down his (small) retirement for home improvement projects, debt reduction, etc. In my state, Medicaid doesn't look at my income or retirement assets for his care. The house is titled in my trust. We don't have a lot other than our home and my 401(k)/IRA. Thanks for thinking of me. I've promised myself I'll take care of him as long as I can and then I will make sure he's taken care of. I've heard too many horror stories of the caregivers driving themselves into the ground because of guilt of not wanting to place their loved one. I hope to continue working 3-5 more years. We'll see.

Yes, it sucks.

iris lilies
12-21-21, 10:18pm
Took care of the legal stuff 3 years ago. We spent down his (small) retirement for home improvement projects, debt reduction, etc. In my state, Medicaid doesn't look at my income or retirement assets for his care. The house is titled in my trust. We don't have a lot other than our home and my 401(k)/IRA. Thanks for thinking of me. I've promised myself I'll take care of him as long as I can and then I will make sure he's taken care of. I've heard too many horror stories of the caregivers driving themselves into the ground because of guilt of not wanting to place their loved one. I hope to continue working 3-5 more years. We'll see.

Yes, it sucks.

Good for you, sounds sensible.

Rogar
12-22-21, 9:14pm
As with many things on the internet, the details might be worth fact checking, but a wealthy person who seems to have organized The Bigelow Institute recently offered a prize of $500,000 to the best essay confirming the evidence of the consciousness surviving after death. This describes the contest.

https://www.bigelowinstitute.org/contest_winners3.php

And this was the winning essay.

https://www.bigelowinstitute.org/docs/1st.pdf

razz
12-23-21, 7:16am
Interesting essay, Roger. Thanks for posting the link.

I skimmed through the pages and focused on the last 5-10 pages. As long as we base life itself on a model of matter alone, it seems that the brain is the hardware. Neat and tidy and controlled.

For all those evidences that don't conform to this model, the challenges arise.