View Full Version : Build Back Better Busted
I’m hearing now that Joe Manchin is saying with some finality that he can’t support the BBB “framework”. It doesn’t seem to me that there’s much hope for the complete package in 2022, and probably less so thereafter. Will they try a more piecemeal fashion, with scrutiny and votes for each proposal on its own merits? Some of the more controversial things, like lifting the SALT cap, subsidies to journalistic organizations, etc. probably won’t survive.
like lifting the SALT cap.
I have seen a TV ad run a few times targeting Maggie Hassan on this issue. It features a man who is in a big house with an office where he works from home while two different tutors teach his kids from home. It says let Hassan know this guy doesn't deserve a tax break.
I doubt anyone who pays attention to these things is even slightly surprised. As often as Joe has moved the goalposts he must have had them chained to the back of his maserati. This is probably his big FU to the democrats before he becomes a republican.
frugal-one
12-19-21, 5:22pm
IMO he is already a republican posing as a democrat.
ApatheticNoMore
12-19-21, 5:33pm
The salt cap was just screwing with blue states. Trump screwing with blue states. And we see it and raise the finger back. Wish succession was viable but it's doesn't really seem so, but meanwhile we want to keep our tax breaks so we can fund things at the state level, since this country doesn't work at the federal level at all, I mean it just doesn't, the failure to pass BBB is just proof, well kinda the failure to pass anything in R or D administrations except Trump's tax cuts and a highway bill. Someone is going to think I'm eligible for it, lol, you are so silly, I never get almost any tax breaks, you think renters without kids are getting tax breaks galore (lol no that's everyone else but surely not that), but I like my state government well funded. But what if I bought property, oh my goodness, you think if I did I could even stretching afford anything but a cheap condo or tiny house? Yea, no those taxes are never going to apply to me.
As policy the Dems maybe should have gone with something small and popular. I'd just love to see R's oppose reducing the Medicare age to 60 or other healthcare proposals like prescription drug pricing etc. (those actually in BBB at one time, I'm not talking Medicare for All because that's not who was elected). Oh wouldn't that be a hoot to oppose something actually small and popular, at this point noone can keep track of the BBB bill.
If I were Schumer I would put all the pieces of the bill that manchin whittled out before going on Republican propaganda tv today to say that he was done back in the bill. And then hold floor vote after floor vote on each item forcing manchin (and all the republicans) to publicly vote against child care credits, insulin price caps, universal pre-k, etc. Make them publicly state for all to see that they aren’t interested in all of the bipartisanly very popular aspects of the bill.
If I were Schumer I would put all the pieces of the bill that manchin whittled out before going on Republican propaganda tv today to say that he was done back in the bill. And then hold floor vote after floor vote on each item forcing manchin (and all the republicans) to publicly vote against child care credits, insulin price caps, universal pre-k, etc. Make them publicly state for all to see that they aren’t interested in all of the bipartisanly very popular aspects of the bill.
+1.
If I were Schumer I would put all the pieces of the bill that manchin whittled out before going on Republican propaganda tv today to say that he was done back in the bill. And then hold floor vote after floor vote on each item forcing manchin (and all the republicans) to publicly vote against child care credits, insulin price caps, universal pre-k, etc. Make them publicly state for all to see that they aren’t interested in all of the bipartisanly very popular aspects of the bill.Yes, there's lots of folks interested in free stuff but they've mostly forgotten about how much free stuff costs.
Yes, there's lots of folks interested in free stuff but they've mostly forgotten about how much free stuff costs.
About the same as a tax cut for the rich and corporations. Or a few months of the annual defense budget.
If I were Schumer I would put all the pieces of the bill that manchin whittled out before going on Republican propaganda tv today to say that he was done back in the bill. And then hold floor vote after floor vote on each item forcing manchin (and all the republicans) to publicly vote against child care credits, insulin price caps, universal pre-k, etc. Make them publicly state for all to see that they aren’t interested in all of the bipartisanly very popular aspects of the bill.
I think it would be good to return to the Schoolhouse Rock version of legislation. Rather than mega bills or frameworks of concepts of mega bills drafted by a party leadership that expects their membership fall in line, debate each proposal on it’s individual merits.
Then, we can see who voted to give subsidies to media organizations or permit Medicaid dues-skimming for unions or prohibit day care funding from going to providers operating out of church basements. If some of that is truly wildly popular, there shouldn’t be a problem.
About the same as a tax cut for the rich and corporations. Or a few months of the annual defense budget. Based on CBO numbers I've seen I believe if you took every cent from every billionaire in the country you could probably pay for a year or two of the BBB plan and if you abolished the military budget for a year you could pay for a couple more. I'm not sure about the next 6 years though.
I think it would be good to return to the Schoolhouse Rock version of legislation. Rather than mega bills or frameworks of concepts of mega bills drafted by a party leadership that expects their membership fall in line, debate each proposal on it’s individual merits.
I haven't really seen Congress debate on much for years now. It is sort of depressing, and definitely outside the Schoolhouse Rock model. Instead it seems to be partisan bickering for social media soundbites and memes, and issues don't even seem to come up for discussion, or for a vote.
A pox on all their houses.
ApatheticNoMore
12-19-21, 11:56pm
This is ridiculous nonsense that noone is willing to pay for stuff. Most people realize it would be in their self interest to pay more in taxes for a better safety net. But minority rule and so never mind.
Based on CBO numbers I've seen I believe if you took every cent from every billionaire in the country you could probably pay for a year or two of the BBB plan and if you abolished the military budget for a year you could pay for a couple more. I'm not sure about the next 6 years though.
Feel free to share the numbers that make you reach this conclusion. The BBB bill, in it’s final now dead, iteration was going to cost less than the tRump tax cut for rich people and corporations.
Feel free to share the numbers that make you reach this conclusion. The BBB bill, in it’s final now dead, iteration was going to cost less than the tRump tax cut for rich people and corporations.
That's assuming all this government largesse would simply end and the various programs would expire sometime after the votes they're intended to buy are counted. Do you really think that would happen?
CBO estimates suggest that the various plans the Democrats are promoting to pay the bill will cover approximately 1/4th of the cost over a 10 year period.
I haven't really seen Congress debate on much for years now. It is sort of depressing, and definitely outside the Schoolhouse Rock model. Instead it seems to be partisan bickering for social media soundbites and memes, and issues don't even seem to come up for discussion, or for a vote.
A pox on all their houses.
Is that the fault of the political class, or of we the people for allowing it? They couldn’t take advantage of our indifference to the issues, class/race resentments or greed if we practiced basic civic virtue on an individual basis. The outrage industry and political hacks couldn’t prosper if they had nobody to pander to.
It's too bad we're in a time of political extremes. There are things around climate change, education, health and crumbling infrastructure that the richest country in the world should be able to advance. With out making a study of it, I'd wager that pregressives have padded and pork rolled less vital social programs into the package. And the right "steal the vote" who don't believe in climate change or even vaccines. I don't know if those are the sticking point or not, but the logical progression to me is to decide what we need to do to have prospering country first, and then figuring out how to pay for things. Quite a bit of it is over my head.
rosarugosa
12-20-21, 2:08pm
I’m hearing now that Joe Manchin is saying with some finality that he can’t support the BBB “framework”. It doesn’t seem to me that there’s much hope for the complete package in 2022, and probably less so thereafter. Will they try a more piecemeal fashion, with scrutiny and votes for each proposal on its own merits? Some of the more controversial things, like lifting the SALT cap, subsidies to journalistic organizations, etc. probably won’t survive.
I would love to see individual items discussed and addressed separately.
I imagine Manchin's personal fossil fuel pork barrel influenced his vote.
He's a rich senator from a poor state and apparently that's fine with him.
ApatheticNoMore
12-20-21, 4:13pm
Is the votes for each proposal on it's merits Even Possible under the rules they insist on keeping?
1) They are maintaining the filibuster. It's doubtful Manchin or others would allow repeal of the filibuster.
2) The filibuster requires bills to pass with a 60% threshold.
3) If no Dem proposals are going to get Republican support, Dems do not have 60%, so they have to pass bills by reconciliation which bypasses the fillibuster.
4) they are not allowed unlimited reconciliation bills
I mean it's all well and good to argue that perhaps they should have gone for a smaller more targeted bill as their 1 (yearly) bill to pass under reconciliation and leave other things unaddressed (but if so they should go for something that makes a real impact, real medical changes like lowered medicare eligiblity to 60 would). But ACTUALLY PASSING bills for each thing, was that ever possible?
I imagine Manchin's personal fossil fuel pork barrel influenced his vote.
He's a rich senator from a poor state and apparently that's fine with him.
I saw a written agreement between Manchin and the White House from the summer where he outlined the requirements necessary for him to support the bill. It would appear the Democrats declined any of the compromise points, so I'm not sure how he can be solely to blame for standing on principle. Sounds like more of a redirect to me.
I saw a written agreement between Manchin and the White House from the summer where he outlined the requirements necessary for him to support the bill. It would appear the Democrats declined any of the compromise points, so I'm not sure how he can be solely to blame for standing on principle. Sounds like more of a redirect to me.
I’d love to see what was in that written agreement. Can you provide a link?
I’d love to see what was in that written agreement. Can you provide a link?
Sure, it was included in a Twitter thread I ran across: Phil Kerpen on Twitter: "Reminder, Manchin and Schumer signed an agreement in July, then Democrats spent five months disregarding every provision of it and somehow thinking they could bully Manchin into going along. https://t.co/oRKn6zZJWd" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1472584106168963075?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1472584106168963075%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftownhall.com%2Ftipsheet%2Fka tiepavlich%2F2021%2F12%2F20%2Freceipts-show-the-white-house-is-lying-about-joe-manchin-n2600841)
I've included a copy of the document in case you'd rather not follow the link.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FG-rWNmXMAwiA2m?format=png&name=900x900
Biden might as well have given up on July 28th if the unreasonable requests in there were ‘non negotiable’.
Biden might as well have given up on July 28th if the unreasonable requests in there were ‘non negotiable’.
The Chuck Schumer comments under his signature reportedly say "will try to dissuade Joe on many of these", which would seem to indicate a willingness to compromise on some of the issues addressed, although there doesn't seem to have been much, if any, effort to do so. It seems to me that recent claims of "not negotiating in good faith" against Manchin are mis-directed.
Out of curiosity, which of the requests do you find to be unreasonable?
I keep hearing conflicting claims about how popular with the voters BBB is (or perhaps was). What are the true numbers? Wouldn’t it’s defeat be a good thing for the Democrats if it sparks a tidal wave of righteous wrath from an electorate ripe for social transformation? Everyone on both sides seems to be expecting the Democrats to lose control in 2022, and is acting accordingly.
Are we dealing with two differing conceptions of democracy here? Is it Manchin’s duty to comply with the desires of his party’s leadership, or to serve the interests of West Virginia as he understands them?
Joe Manchin, whose wealth comes from coal, isn't looking out for the interests of any west virginians other than himself and his donors. That's why he wanted the committee he heads to have sole discretion on clean energy standards, and wanted the rest of BBB that dealt with climate change neutralized to the point of meaninglessness. Hopefully democrats can win two additional seats in the senate next year so that they can neutralize Manchin to the point of meaninglessness.
Joe Manchin, whose wealth comes from coal, isn't looking out for the interests of any west virginians other than himself and his donors. That's why he wanted the committee he heads to have sole discretion on clean energy standards, and wanted the rest of BBB that dealt with climate change neutralized to the point of meaninglessness.
The coal industry is big business in West Virginia, I'm sure if Democratic demands to do away with it were to be realized it would affect many more people than your least favorite Democratic senator. I believe it's his job to represent their interests too.
Another out of curiosity question, If the Senate Energy Committee doesn't have influence over clean energy standards, which one should?
Hopefully democrats can win two additional seats in the senate next year so that they can neutralize Manchin to the point of meaninglessness.
Good luck with that. I know it's early yet but it currently looks like you'd be better off hoping not to lose a couple seats.
Joe Manchin, whose wealth comes from coal, isn't looking out for the interests of any west virginians other than himself and his donors. That's why he wanted the committee he heads to have sole discretion on clean energy standards, and wanted the rest of BBB that dealt with climate change neutralized to the point of meaninglessness. Hopefully democrats can win two additional seats in the senate next year so that they can neutralize Manchin to the point of meaninglessness.
If they can really sell this bill as the last best hope of mankind, that shouldn’t be a major challenge. All they need to do is get people to see past all the crime, inflation and international humiliation.
catherine
12-21-21, 12:39pm
I'm just curious.. If the GND/BBB is such a nightmare for the country, why the drop in the Dow and Nasdaq yesterday with news that the bill would not pass? Just asking. I'm assuming part of it is the fact that the bill would mean great growth in innovation which investors might like.
I'm just curious.. If the GND is such a nightmare for the country, why the drop in the Dow and Nasdaq yesterday with news that the bill would not pass? Just asking. I'm assuming part of it is the fact that the bill would mean great growth in innovation which investors might like.
I read someone positing that the last couple of trading day's losses were Omicron related, but today the market is showing an upsurge in all major indices. I'm not seeing any correlation to it and the BBB bill, but who knows?
Despite all of trump's pointless bloviating about it, coal is dying. The sooner west virginians realize that and make a plan B the better off they will be.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/184333/coal-energy-consumption-in-the-us/
Despite all of trump's pointless bloviating about it, coal is dying. The sooner west virginians realize that and make a plan B the better off they will be.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/184333/coal-energy-consumption-in-the-us/
I think about a third of this country's electrical generation is powered by coal and a lot of that coal comes from West Virginia. I think all Manchin is asking is that fossil fuels be given the same consideration as other energy producing sources while waiting for innovation to make them gradually and feasibly obsolete. Sounds prudent to me.
ApatheticNoMore
12-21-21, 2:22pm
Yea awaiting the end of the world without trying to mitigate is "prudent", yep, no doubt about it, that's the word I'd use "prudent". Giving coal the same consideration as other fuels despite the externalities (like whole countries starving due to climate change now, and that's irreversible), yea that's "prudent"
I mean I think a lot of people (uh not in those countries that are starving obviously) are just hoping they will die of natural causes first, and if they are as old as Manchin they might, if they have no more than 10 years left, but others have more than that left, and there are really no words for it, evil is not strong enough, but "prudent" is the last word I'd use.
I'm just curious.. If the GND/BBB is such a nightmare for the country, why the drop in the Dow and Nasdaq yesterday with news that the bill would not pass? Just asking. I'm assuming part of it is the fact that the bill would mean great growth in innovation which investors might like.
My market news said that the drop was due to omicron concerns, FWIW. I see it's back up today. I foresee market jiggers in the near future for a variety of fears.
Thinking that inflation is traditionally the supply of spendable money creating demand, compared to the available supply of good and services, I could see a big spending package driving more inflation.
ApatheticNoMore
12-21-21, 2:33pm
Thinking that inflation is traditionally the supply of spendable money creating demand, compared to the available supply of good and services, I could see a big spending package driving more inflation.
I'm not sure it is now or that it usually is. Look I'm not saying it never is okay, that's a strong position that I don't believe. But even the inflation in the 70s had other causes, like U.S. traditional oil production actually peaked then and there actually were fuel shortages. Here we have a pandemic, we have a labor supply some of which had been killed or disabled (long covid) by the pandemic (not in black death numbers but ..), we have many countries on earth still without adequate vaccine supply to combat the pandemic, we have a market that got all weirdly allocated due to the pandemic, I mean what was in demand in the pandemic is not what is in demand if there is less pandemic. Clearly we know that. And this effects what goods and services are bought by producers, how production is scaled up or down etc.. We have games being played by OPEC and middle east oil. And we have climate change probably having some effect on the food supply.
Also maybe we should worry less about inflation than whether wages are keeping up with inflation, since many people are getting raises due to labor shortages etc. I'm not sure that they are doing so any worse than they usually do and possibly they are even doing a better job tracking inflation than usual.
catherine
12-21-21, 2:43pm
I read someone positing that the last couple of trading day's losses were Omicron related, but today the market is showing an upsurge in all major indices. I'm not seeing any correlation to it and the BBB bill, but who knows?
This is what I read on CNN.
Two factors appeared to be driving Monday's losses.
Soaring cases of the Omicron variant in Europe and the United States are already slamming businesses and forcing governments to tighten restrictions on activity at a critical time of year for the leisure and retail industries. And the prospects for the US economy dimmed after Democrat Sen. Joe Manchin said he would oppose the Biden administration's $1.75 trillion "Build Back Better" bill.
"A combination of increasing Omicron nerves, particularly in the UK and Europe, and the failure of President Biden's spending plan... has seen Asian equities head directly south in sympathy with Wall Street's Friday finish," wrote Jeffrey Halley, senior market analyst, Asia Pacific, at Oanda.
Goldman Sachs wasted no time in slashing its growth forecast for the US economy in the wake of Manchin's pronouncement on Fox News on Sunday. The Wall Street firm told clients it no longer assumes President Joe Biden's signature legislation will get through Congress.
Citing the "apparent demise" of Build Back Better, Goldman Sachs now expects US GDP to grow at an annualized pace of 2% in the first quarter, down from 3% previously.
Also maybe we should worry less about inflation than whether wages are keeping up with inflation, since many people are getting raises due to labor shortages etc. I'm not sure that they are doing so any worse than they usually do and possibly they are even doing a better job tracking inflation than usual.
Last time I read up on the new Modern Monetary Theory that some in the new green deal endorsed, they proposed controlling the inflation caused by increases in government spending by raising taxes, there by removing spendable money from the economy. An idea I like, but practically speaking not popular enough to gain support among the conservatives.
ApatheticNoMore
12-21-21, 2:58pm
Attributing too much meaning to short term stock market moves is surely superstition. Also the Fed has been talking of hiking interest rates.
But what will probably happen in response to any stock market gyrations, is the Fed will bail out the stock market. Because it is always being bailed out right. It's almost what predictably happens in response. But heaven forbid any money get to ordinary people especially if they don't even own stocks, people that don't own stocks, Manchin looks down on such worthless losers from his yacht.
Attributing too much meaning to short term stock market moves is surely superstition. Also the Fed has been talking of hiking interest rates.
But what will probably happen in response to any stock market gyrations, is the Fed will bail out the stock market. Because it is always being bailed out right. It's almost what predictably happens in response. But heaven forbid any money get to ordinary people especially if they don't even own stocks, people that don't own stocks, Manchin looks down on such worthless losers from his yacht.
In theory I don't think the Fed manages stock market gyrations, but the wellness of the economy, which may or may not be related.
ApatheticNoMore
12-21-21, 3:49pm
I think the Dems are better with BBB tanked than agreeing with Manchin's demands. Yes some things are even worse than nothing. We don't need a coal barron in charge of clean energy or climate policy.
Another out of curiosity question, If the Senate Energy Committee doesn't have influence over clean energy standards, which one should?
There's no reason, other than manchin's desire to keep coal relevant for as long as he can, that ONLY the senate ENR committee should be responsible. Surely environment and public works is also relevant, not to mention the House's ENR committee as well as the House's Energy and Commerce committee. And perhaps even some input should come from the EPA. To leave all decisions regarding climate change energy standards in the hands of a committee run by a dude who makes his living off of fossil fuels and his politcal campaigns with large contributions from fossil fuel companies and executives seems like a sure way to make sure those standards are weak at best.
This is what I read on CNN.
Two factors appeared to be driving Monday's losses.
Soaring cases of the Omicron variant in Europe and the United States are already slamming businesses and forcing governments to tighten restrictions on activity at a critical time of year for the leisure and retail industries. And the prospects for the US economy dimmed after Democrat Sen. Joe Manchin said he would oppose the Biden administration's $1.75 trillion "Build Back Better" bill.
"A combination of increasing Omicron nerves, particularly in the UK and Europe, and the failure of President Biden's spending plan... has seen Asian equities head directly south in sympathy with Wall Street's Friday finish," wrote Jeffrey Halley, senior market analyst, Asia Pacific, at Oanda.
Goldman Sachs wasted no time in slashing its growth forecast for the US economy in the wake of Manchin's pronouncement on Fox News on Sunday. The Wall Street firm told clients it no longer assumes President Joe Biden's signature legislation will get through Congress.
Citing the "apparent demise" of Build Back Better, Goldman Sachs now expects US GDP to grow at an annualized pace of 2% in the first quarter, down from 3% previously.
I've never been sure of what drivers actually affect the markets. If our recent swings have anything to do with the governments inability to pump another few trillion dollars into Democrats pet causes before the end of the year the market must have forgotten about it today. The Dow is currently up 525 over yesterdays close, the NASDAQ is up 340, the NYSE is up 300 and the S&P is up 75. The market doesn't close for another hour or so but it looks like todays gains will more than make up for yesterdays losses. I can't explain why.
There's no reason, other than manchin's desire to keep coal relevant for as long as he can, that ONLY the senate ENR committee should be responsible. Surely environment and public works is also relevant, not to mention the House's ENR committee as well as the House's Energy and Commerce committee. And perhaps even some input should come from the EPA. To leave all decisions regarding climate change energy standards in the hands of a committee run by a dude who makes his living off of fossil fuels and his politcal campaigns with large contributions from fossil fuel companies and executives seems like a sure way to make sure those standards are weak at best.Maybe you should send an urgent message to the Democratic Majority Leader and ask him to strip Manchin of all committee assignments, I think that's becoming a thing these days for anyone guilty of offending liberals.
Conversely, I guess you could also wait for another year when the Republicans re-take the Senate and perhaps we'll get someone in that position you can hate without crossing your party boundries.
Maybe you should send an urgent message to the Democratic Majority Leader and ask him to strip Manchin of all committee assignments, I think that's becoming a thing these days for anyone guilty of offending liberals.
It seems like Trump's method of using malevolent conspiracy theories, and threats or real retributions were more effective in controlling his party's dissidents.
It seems like Trump's method of using malevolent conspiracy theories, and threats or real retributions were more effective in controlling his party's dissidents.
LOL, and now we have a White House that simply tells everyone that Manchin or Sinema or whoever is currently stepping outside the ruling party's ideological bubble is the reason we can't have nice things and we get the same result. These days, it seems that the more things change, the more they actually don't.
I guess so. Good point. Although Trump was a master weaver of a malevolent conspiracy theory tapestry, while Biden is merely a tailor taking in a few hems. That's politics.
Biden needs to come up with a few derogatory nicknames for Manchin to insinuate his family connection to Castro, ugliness of his wife, a cowardly POW, or JFK's assassination.
Does this bill, as some are saying, mark peak progressivism?
Goodbye FDR, welcome back Carter?
Biden needs to come up with a few derogatory nicknames for Manchin to insinuate his family connection to Castro, ugliness of his wife, a cowardly POW, or JFK's assassination.
Yes, I guess if you want to emulate all of Trump's worst traits you could suggest that Biden step it up a notch, but personally I was hoping we were over that sort of thing.
Ok, I think I’m over for now, too. The conservatives even seem to have forgotten Obama these days. I was sort of in the people in glass houses theory when you were onto the liberals. There are a lot of bozos on the political busses.
Yes, I guess if you want to emulate all of Trump's worst traits you could suggest that Biden step it up a notch, but personally I was hoping we were over that sort of thing.
Calling people names wasn’t trump’s worst trait. By far. Putting together a coordinated effort to overthrow the results of an election make all that seem like child’s play.
I think about a third of this country's electrical generation is powered by coal and a lot of that coal comes from West Virginia. I think all Manchin is asking is that fossil fuels be given the same consideration as other energy producing sources while waiting for innovation to make them gradually and feasibly obsolete. Sounds prudent to me.
Coal use is actually less than 20% and falling precipitously as the graph midway down this link shows. If manchin actually cared about west Virginians he’d be figuring out how to get solar panel manufacturers to build plants there instead of pushing against the rapid decline of coal. But that doesn’t help his bank account so it isn’t going to o happen.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php
Attended a City meeting last night and the Mayor was reading his same statement he trots out all the time about it's not his fault the roads are bad, we have a lot of hills and no money. Asked him about the Infrastructure Bill and he didn't even know it passed. We have total bozos running the government.
We have total bozos running the government.
Who elected them? If we have government by, of and for the Bozos, who should you really be blaming?
Who elected them? If we have government by, of and for the Bozos, who should you really be blaming?
I voted for his young, smart, Libertarian challenger, but it is hard for anyone outside the two party system to win.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.