Book Banning

[jp1]

If you were running for school board or other elected office what books would you promise to remove from the school library’s shelves?

[Yppej]

None.

ETA I say this because I don't think any school librarian would put X rated materials in their collection.

[Tradd]

I don’t think sexually explicit books belong in a school library, but other than that, I don’t believe in banning books.

[razz]

Interesting question. Kids are going to explore. With today's media, nothing is unavailable. Banning any books simply increases interest in the author, the writings and agenda/history presented.

It is much wiser, IMHO, to define the resources (space, $$$ and staff) available for the library, the criteria for evaluating authors and their contribution to society over the years, good or other, and evaluating the whole issue every 5 years or so.

Trying to control the thoughts of others is a particularly evil form of tyranny. Book banning fits that criteria.

[happystuff]

It is much wiser, IMHO, to define the resources (space, $$$ and staff) available for the library, the criteria for evaluating authors and their contribution to society over the years, good or other, and evaluating the whole issue every 5 years or so.

I agree with this to a point, because I can also see it coming down to the old "money talks" determining factor in what resources make the cut and which ones don't. Having criteria for evaluating authors and their contributions, etc. is very subjective.

[iris lilies]

None.

ETA I say this because I don't think any school librarian would put X rated materials in their collection.

as head of the collection development department that addressed “book banning” requests at a major urban library system, I can assure you that inappropriate library materials slip through the cracks to get out to the shelves

There’s plenty of X-rated things as well, the question is are they appropriate? Are they housed in the right collection, i.e. not for the four year olds, etc.

[herbgeek]

I would hope that elementary school librarians aren't ordering sexually explicit material in the first place. Public library or college library, sure.

[LDAHL]

I think “book banning” is a charged term that librarians and chain bookstores like to use to create an impression of danger, rebellion and romance. As has been pointed out, there is often limited space and the herd needs prosaic culling from time to time.

In this age of declining readership at all levels, I doubt school libraries are very influential as cultural institutions anyway. So even if I believed Rowling or Morrison or Twain or Dr Seuss were bad for young minds, I wouldn’t be able to get too excited about whatever damage they could do compared to all the electronic dreck out there.

I think school boards would be better advised to review curricula that gets force fed to kids rather than what titles they can check out to read on their own time.

[iris lilies]

I would hope that elementary school librarians aren't ordering sexually explicit material in the first place. Public library or college library, sure.
I think so much of the problem comes in middle school where you have, what, 10–year-olds and 14–year-olds? So much of controversy about adultness comes in the age range between 12 and 20.

I can see where my 10-year-old isn’t it all ready for certain material where as your 14-year-old is absolutely ready. So much varience in that age range.

But to me the bottom line …Books? Someone is actually concerned about physical books on the shelf in a library? That seems to be the least of the problematic material out there.

But to swing back through to the public library: we got requests, some of them quite silly, to remove material from the adult collections. I would say it was pretty much half complaints about material that the complainer thought was harmful to others because of their own “Wokeness. “

Yes it’s hard to believe JP, but Woke people complain about inappropriate material as well as Republican prudes. It is all about protecting their fellow citizens in their minds.

[Tradd]

Huckleberry Finn is suspect now. And the Little House books due to their depiction of blacks and Native Americans. LIW’s name was removed from a children’s literature award as a result. Silly people.

[iris lilies]

I think “book banning” is a charged term that librarians and chain bookstores like to use to create an impression of danger, rebellion and romance. As has been pointed out, there is often limited space and the herd needs prosaic culling from time to time.

In this age of declining readership at all levels, I doubt school libraries are very influential as cultural institutions anyway. So even if I believed Rowling or Morrison or Twain or Dr Seuss were bad for young minds, I wouldn’t be able to get too excited about whatever damage they could do compared to all the electronic dreck out there.

I think school boards would be better advised to review curricula that gets force fed to kids rather than what titles they can check out to read on their own time.

upvoted a million times.

It is so interesting to see Harry Potter withheld from children now from “both sides.” Conservative religious people don’t like the fantasy/witchcraft aspect, and the woke crowd doesn’t like the author. Sad times we live in.

[catherine]

[QUOTE=LDAHL;401136]
In this age of declining readership at all levels, I doubt school libraries are very influential as cultural institutions anyway. So even if I believed Rowling or Morrison or Twain or Dr Seuss were bad for young minds, I wouldn’t be able to get too excited about whatever damage they could do compared to all the electronic dreck out there.

Absolutely. Hands down, social media is the key culture influencer among young people--surely not books, sadly enough.

[LDAHL]

[QUOTE=LDAHL;401136]
In this age of declining readership at all levels, I doubt school libraries are very influential as cultural institutions anyway. So even if I believed Rowling or Morrison or Twain or Dr Seuss were bad for young minds, I wouldn’t be able to get too excited about whatever damage they could do compared to all the electronic dreck out there.

Absolutely. Hands down, social media is the key culture influencer among young people--surely not books, sadly enough.

Sadly enough indeed. That stuff seems almost designed to make people stupider and obsessed with superficiality. I’ll admit that many years ago I was more interested in Doc Savage than Don Quixote and spent more time with Stan Lee than Harper Lee, but at least there was some level of plot and structure.

[frugal-one]

I don’t think sexually explicit books belong in a school library, but other than that, I don’t believe in banning books.

One time I picked up YA book from the local public library that was totally inappropriate… graphic sex. I asked that’s book be labeled for adults. Unfortunately, the library director’s response is that kids need or already know this stuff. Interestingly, another librarian overheard our conversation and asked the name of the book commenting she didn’t want her kids reading that. I didn’t ask for the book to be banned but be put in the adult section.

[iris lilies]

One time I picked up YA book from the local public library that was totally inappropriate… graphic sex. I asked that’s book be labeled for adults. Unfortunately, the library director’s response is that kids need or already know this stuff. Interestingly, another librarian overheard our conversation and asked the name of the book commenting she didn’t want her kids reading that. I didn’t ask for the book to be banned but be put in the adult section.

it was probably written for the YA crowd. You don’t have to make it available to YOUR children. That you think it’s not available for ANY teen is pretty damn limiting of you.

[frugal-one]

You didn’t read the book so have NO idea. The director say they discussed where to locate the book and were divided. It was very graphic and totally inappropriate for YA.

[iris lilies]

You didn’t read the book so have NO idea. The director say they discussed where to locate the book and were divided. It was very graphic and totally inappropriate for YA.
Title, please. Is it by a YA author? Marketed to the YA crowd? How old is the protagonist?

It might well be on the “strong” side of material for teens. A 17 year old is different from a 13 year old though. Do you browse often the YA shelves?

[frugal-one]

I returned the book after reading 2 chapters. In that time, the girl’s father was having an affair, the girl was cutting herself and she and her friends were wearing garish lipstick and coming down on boys (whichever boy had the most lipstick on their … won). I don’t care what you say, this is not appropriate material for a 12 year old (or older teen)….. total trash. To answer your question, I wanted to read something by this author and every other book was checked out so I thought this would give me an idea of her writing style. Needless to say, I never picked up another book by her. It was Jody Piccoult. I don’t remember the name of the book.

[oldhat]

I'd ban all books. When I was a kid, nothing got me interested in a book quicker than knowing someone didn't want me to read it. Reading rates would soar.

But seriously, folks, when I was in elementary school in the mid 1960s, one of my teachers confiscated a book I was reading. The school contacted my parents, who told them they knew perfectly well what I was reading, thank you very much. I was summoned to the principal's office and the book was returned to me in a plain manila envelope.

The book was The Catcher in the Rye.

[iris lilies]

I returned the book after reading 2 chapters. In that time, the girl’s father was having an affair, the girl was cutting herself and she and her friends were wearing garish lipstick and coming down on boys (whichever boy had the most lipstick on their … won). I don’t care what you say, this is not appropriate material for a 12 year old (or older teen)….. total trash. To answer your question, I wanted to read something by this author and every other book was checked out so I thought this would give me an idea of her writing style. Needless to say, I never picked up another book by her. It was Jody Piccoult. I don’t remember the name of the book.

Jody Piccoult doesn’t write great literature, it is popular pablum, but she is very popular.

I don’t like the idea of 12 year olds playing around with sex so casually either, but to pretend teens “shouldn’t” read about it when in fact many of them (hopefully, older than 12) are actually HAVING sex in real life seems very silly to me.

As far as the protagonist participating in self harm rituals and her parent having an affair—-perhaps if you read more widely in the YA section you would find those are common topics.

Maybe this book is best placed in the adult section of the library, I don’t know the book. But I suspect, given Piccout’s great popularity, it was deliberately marketed to the YA crowd. Piccoult is as much a marketer as an author.

[jp1]

On average boys first view porn when they are age 13. I haven't read Picoult either but if she's a YA writer I assume that her books attempt some sort of educational point in terms of dealing with real life situations that lots of teens face. I'd rather teenagers be exposed to that than porn. And as a one-time LGBT teen I wish there had been YA books that dealt with that topic 40 years ago. It would have been helpful to have had any sort of validation for my feelings instead of bumbling along in the closet for years and years without a clue how to get out of it.

Personally I am not in favor of banning any books beyond for age appropriateness. By the time kids are in high school the limit on books should be a bare minimum. A far better approach, in my opinion, would be to use the book for discussions to help kids learn to think more critically. For instance, the Laura Ingalls Wilder books discussion about Native Americans. Have the class read the book and then have a discussion about how the country looked upon Native Americans at the time and whether it is reasonable for LIW to have written what she did or should she have somehow offered up a negative critique of her Pa's words about them.

I've got Art Spiegelman's Mouse in my queue at the library. Hopefully it's as good as it has been made out to be in the press.

[frugal-one]

I never said ban the book but put it in the adult section. YA starts at 12 yo. Seems like a topic for older….or in MY case not at all. I don’t care to read such garbage.

[JaneV2.0]

I've read Picoult--she mostly seems to write what I would call domestic fiction--certainly nothing scandalous. But you write for your audience, and the YA market--from what I've seen and heard--loves the lurid and tragic. Drama plays well with them.

[rosarugosa]

When I was in Junior High, a neighbor was reading The Happy Hooker and I said I wanted to read it. My mother said it was inappropriate, so challenge accepted, I was compelled to buy and read it immediately, because nobody was going to tell me what to do! I even did a book report on it, with permission from my English teacher.
My parents pretty much let me read whatever I wanted, and I read a lot of things that would probably not be considered age-appropriate: Rosemary's Baby, Myra Breckenridge, The Exorcist. None of it did me any harm, unless you count a few nightmares from The Exorcist. I read a lot of crap, but that helped me learn the big life's lesson that reading was SO MUCH FUN! I became a bit more discriminating as time went by, but I fully believe young adults should be encouraged to read as much rubbish as their little hearts desire.

[iris lilies]

I never said ban the book but put it in the adult section. YA starts at 12 yo. Seems like a topic for older….or in MY case not at all. I don’t care to read such garbage.
Moving library materials out of the space that targeted readers inhabit is one form of censorship.

You do not have to read it. No one is making you.

[bae]

Out of date reference books, unless of historical interest. Incomplete members of a series - I’d toss or complete the series - it is so frustrating to only see volume #3 in a 5 volume series. Books that are cluttering up limited shelving and never used. Significantly damaged books - toss, repair, replace.

[iris lilies]

Out of date reference books, unless of historical interest. Incomplete members of a series - I’d toss or complete the series - it is so frustrating to only see volume #3 in a 5 volume series. Books that are cluttering up limited shelving and never used. Significantly damaged books - toss, repair, replace.
Incomplete series sets is a constant problem in collection maintenance.

[jp1]

When I was 17 and taking AP European history my term paper subject was ‘sexual mores during Victorian England’. I had to read a variety of interesting books while working on it. And I’m proud to say that I got a solid A for my efforts. The teacher thought it was a great topic.

[frugal-one]

Moving library materials out of the space that targeted readers inhabit is one form of censorship.

You do not have to read it. No one is making you

You did not read previous posts. There was discussion as to where to put this book. It was not a targeted YA book.

[JaneV2.0]

When I was 17 and taking AP European history my term paper subject was ‘sexual mores during Victorian England’. I had to read a variety of interesting books while working on it. And I’m proud to say that I got a solid A for my efforts. The teacher thought it was a great topic.

Good work!

In my freshman Honors English class, I compared whatever dull, churchy 19th-century tome the professor was forcing us to read with James Baldwin's Another Country. I don't remember what my grade was, but that class pretty much solidified my distaste for literature classes. Which was too bad, since English was one of my many majors. :devil:

[ApatheticNoMore]

I chose as my topic peasants in the middle ages. That's what realistic preparation for adulthood looks like I guess.

[iris lilies]

You did not read previous posts. There was discussion as to where to put this book. It was not a targeted YA book.
Oh no, I read your previous posts carefully.

If your action of bringing it to the attention of library staff caused them to double check its correct placement in the library, that’s fine. Jody Piccoult isn't known as a YA author.

Your assumption that graphic sex isn't found in YA books sitting in YA collevtions targeted to the YA crowd is way off base.

[JaneV2.0]

I chose as my topic peasants in the middle ages. That's what realistic preparation for adulthood looks like I guess.

Hahaha! Good point.

[rosarugosa]

I chose as my topic peasants in the middle ages. That's what realistic preparation for adulthood looks like I guess.

You probably never expected it to be so relevant!

[Alan]

If you were running for school board or other elected office what books would you promise to remove from the school library’s shelves?
I'm guessing this post was prompted by something I just read about today. A school board in Tennessee banned "Maus" by Art Spiegelman for its depiction of the Holocaust and for nude imagery.
If so, I find it interesting that in another thread we've been discussing several popular music artists attempts to remove Joe Rogan from Spotify. It makes me wonder, are the people who are upset about Maus being removed from a school district the same people who are upset that Joe Rogan hasn't been removed from Spotify?

[bae]

If so, I find it interesting that in another thread we've been discussing several popular music artists attempts to remove Joe Rogan from Spotify.

I was essentially ignorant of Rogan until this donnybrook developed. So I'm not sure the culture warfare folks accomplished their mission there.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I was aware of Rogan but paid him no mind because it sounds like listening to hours of interviews, sheesh who has time or energy for that anyway? And I've listened to other podcasts here and there, even really dense ones, but I have to be really interested in the guest or subject matter.

[jp1]

I'm guessing this post was prompted by something I just read about today. A school board in Tennessee banned "Maus" by Art Spiegelman for its depiction of the Holocaust and for nude imagery.
If so, I find it interesting that in another thread we've been discussing several popular music artists attempts to remove Joe Rogan from Spotify. It makes me wonder, are the people who are upset about Maus being removed from a school district the same people who are upset that Joe Rogan hasn't been removed from Spotify?

I suppose if the accusations against Maus are that it's a dishonest portrayal of the holocaust there might be a valid comparison there.

[iris lilies]

Maus has been controversial for years. I just read up on it and had forgotten it won the Pulitzer prize. I think it was “strong” material especially at the time it came out, but ummm, it is the holocaust. Not exactly a walk in the park.

One criticism against it is that it trivializes the suffering of Holocaust participants. I suppose that criticism is lobbed by those who hear “it’s a comic book about the Holocaust” and they go with that. Same criticism is directed at the film “Life is beautiful.” Similar criticism of Hamilton the musical, in not being respectful toward important figures of American history in the presentation of their story through rap music and untraditional casting.

I think these are narrow views of art and literature and what it “should” be. There is a lot of “shoulds” going on these days. Just today DH and I were driving around making deliveries of stuff and we drove down Cherokee Street and lamented the fact that the giant Cherokee Indian statue that has been there since the 1930s was removed because it was considered “disrespectful. “It’s really too bad because it was such a cool old marker for that street.


ANM, I listen to podcasts when I’m doing household chores. They are very very handy. We’ve always been a radio household but now I don’t have to depend on what’s broadcasting through the airways, I can pick and choose among podcasts and it is a delicious audio world now.

[JaneV2.0]

I've found most podcasts have an unacceptable signal to noise ratio, for the most part. I will let the public decide on their individual merits.

I have been solidly against book banning since before Rogan was born.

[beckyliz]

I'm more concerned about public schools banning books because they're governmental entities than I am about a private company deciding what to do because of what they're customers and vendors are demanding. Once is censorship and the other capitalism.

[iris lilies]

The unfortunate attack on Salman Rushdie reminded me of the controversy about buying his book
Satanic verses 30+ years ago. It was on the bestseller list.

Our library’s Manager of ACquisitions posited that we should not buy the book. Thing is, I cannot remember her logic for that. Since she was Woke so very Woke it would have come from a place of…I dunno, Wokeness? Perhaps, and I won’t swear to it, her reason may have been to protect Rushdie if we should not buy it.

Of course we bought the damn book in many copies because our community wanted to read it.

But I remember how annoying that interaction was, me feeling “WTH? You advocate we don’t buy a NYT bestseller?” I was still voting Democratic then but some…problems…with the political left were beginning to be revealed to me.

[iris lilies]

Another “ ban this book” incident from in my early days at a large urban library was the Madonna book Sex which was on the bestseller list, it shot to the top.

It was a large format, expensive book of photographs, just a few of them risqué. We decided not to buy it because it was expensive and really not of literary merit, haha. A weak excuse, but we agonized over it. The REAL problem was that we knew within the first 3 checkouts it would never be returned. And it was too expensive to keep replacing and replacing.

There were always a handful of titles like that, constant replacement required. It was such as relief when some of those titles went digital.Can’t steal a digital copy!

oh, and I remember a funny incident with one of our library customers. She said “I’m glad my tax dollars aren’t going toward buying that book! Would you get if for me via Interlibrary loan?”

ummm, disconnect much? So she’s happy that other tax payers are buying it? Her Request was entirely impractical because any book on the New York Times list will not be lent because the owning library’s own patrons will have long waiting list for it.

[littlebittybobby]

Okay---Just wanted to let you kids know that I wrote a lengthy manifesto, and sent it around to various publishing houses. It woulda prolly taken up 750+ pages! But, guewss what? The publishers who bothered to respond said we're not interested; your 'pinions will prolly get the book BANNED, if we publish it. Well, that's strange; if it's BANNED, won't that garner media attention and thus more interest in the book & thus, increased sales? But yeah---if I were a conspiracy buff, I'd concoct one that said the Rush-Die attack was a setup, designed to jump-start sales in his book. See? I betcha lirrrarrries are already ordering up more copies, as I write this. Hope that helps you some.4719

[catherine]

When I went to my parochial grammar school Nancy Drew books were banned...not because they were suggestive, but because they weren't suggestive enough. The nuns felt that books in a series would present a limited vocabulary and a too-homogenous reading experience. They felt we would read all the Nancy Drew books at the exclusion of other types of books.

[rosarugosa]

When I went to my parochial grammar school Nancy Drew books were banned...not because they were suggestive, but because they weren't suggestive enough. The nuns felt that books in a series would present a limited vocabulary and a too-homogenous reading experience. They felt we would read all the Nancy Drew books at the exclusion of other types of books.

This certainly reinforces the extremely low regard I have for nuns.

[catherine]

This certainly reinforces the extremely low regard I have for nuns.

I actually see their point. What's wrong with maximizing the opportunity for a wide variety of reading experiences? This was a small school library. Parents could certainly buy all the Nancy Drew books they wanted for their kids.

But then again, I have nothing against nuns. They're like people in any other profession--some are not so great, others are absolutely wonderful. The wonderful ones are why I wanted to be a nun.

[iris lilies]

I actually see their point. What's wrong with maximizing the opportunity for a wide variety of reading experiences? This was a small school library. Parents could certainly buy all the Nancy Drew books they wanted for their kids.

But then again, I have nothing against nuns. They're like people in any other profession--some are not so great, others are absolutely wonderful. The wonderful ones are why I wanted to be a nun.

i agree, and dont know any school libraries that bought Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys with limited library money. Same way public libraries didnt buy Harlequin romances.

[JaneV2.0]

I've probably mentioned this before--my mother didn't own one pair of black shoes because she harbored memories of staring down at some nun's shoes while being lectured--apparently, more than once.

[catherine]

I've probably mentioned this before--my mother didn't own one pair of black shoes because she harbored memories of staring down at some nun's shoes while being lectured. Apparently, more than once.

Lectured--pfft! That was nothing. I was downright humiliated on more than one occasion, and I watched several of my other classmates suffer the same fate. But, I was also treated with extreme kindness and compassion. And I do have lots of black shoes.

[dado potato]

For 16 titles that the Polk County (FL) School Board and Superintendent removed from library shelves in January 2022, see linked article.
http://www.theledger.com/story/news/regional/2022/05/13/polk-florida-school-district-return-16-challenged-books-library-shelves/9734668002

And in Leon County (FL), resident Chaz Stevens sent an email to the County School Superintendent: Let's be honest -- banning books is never a good idea, but what is fair is fair, and with that in mind, please find attached my request to ban the Bible.

[rosarugosa]

Well you did use the word "banned," which brought to my mind the idea that they were forbidden. I read so much crappy crap as a youngster, but also a fair bit of good stuff. It all helped foster my love of reading, and I became more discerning in my choices at some point. I recently mentioned to DH that I know Machu Picchu is in Peru because I remember it from a Nancy Drew book, lol.
I think nuns and priests are evil.

[JaneV2.0]

Lectured--pfft! That was nothing. I was downright humiliated on more than one occasion, and I watched several of my other classmates suffer the same fate. But, I was also treated with extreme kindness and compassion. And I do have lots of black shoes.

She might have been humiliated--that could explain her aversion to nun shoes. My aunt staged a rebellion when some nun tried to rap her knuckles with a ruler. The story goes that she grabbed the ruler, broke it over her knee and somehow got her siblings to leave school with her, never to return. I'm pretty sure there was a lot of embroidery involved in that story, but none of the five siblings finished Catholic school or attended Catholics services as adults.

[catherine]

She might have been humiliated--that could explain her aversion to nun shoes. My aunt staged a rebellion when some nun tried to rap her knuckles with a ruler. The story goes that she grabbed the ruler, broke it over her knee and somehow got her siblings to leave school with her, never to return. I'm pretty sure there was a lot of embroidery involved in that story, but none of the five siblings finished Catholic school or attended Catholics services as adults.

I know Catholicism is considered "evil" by many these days--and there are certainly valid reasons for that, mostly stemming from institutional and systemic abuse of power over the ages.

I still believe, just as not all Germans were Nazis, that there are truly holy people who have found meaning in Catholicism and given their lives to serving "the least of us."

I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the Catholic religion, because I find inspiration in those who truly live it the way it should be lived.

https://aleteia.org/2021/12/30/10-catholics-who-restored-our-faith-in-humanity-in-2021/

[JaneV2.0]

My grandmother was a lifelong, devout Catholic. As far as I know, few of her descendants embraced Catholicism, or indeed, any religion. We're like that here in the PNW. I don't have any opinions about mainstream religions, though I have lots of clergy among my forebears. As you point out, it's all in the practice.

My aunt was a committed atheist, often railing about "religionists." I see on FB that her granddaughter is a graduate of Corban College--a very churchy institution. She appears to live her faith by doing a lot of good works. I'm sure Aunt L. is chewing on her tongue somewhere in the afterlife.

[littlebittybobby]

Okay---Here's my favorite nun of all time---Sister Gory Dorthie. She was my Perfesser of something required at ICCC--yes--ICCC--a learning institution of sorts up in I-wah. I was a student (of sorts) up there when I was just 21. Not even married, w/children, like normal people there! But anyway--The only recollection I have of Sr Dorthie (besides how unattractive she was) was how she always related something gory to the class, involving men being impaled or whatever, on account of their foolishness in trying to prove their manliness! Yup. But yeah--maybe Sr Gory Dorthie was right. Anyway--She retired from teaching, got her pension, and checked into the convent in Zurra, and lived care-free until the age of 92! Yup. Just thought you kids would like to hear this anecdote about someone who I guess influenced me in some fashion. I have no clue if she liked catts. Yup. Hope that helped you kids some. 4726