View Full Version : Public schools: parental influence, what should be taught?
iris lilies
4-5-22, 9:42am
Here ya go, hash it out.
Had a mental list of who would start this thread. Yes, you were on it, IL. :D
I am confused about the title--are you asking what kind of influence parents should have on what is taught? Or what should be taught? Or what is the question?
iris lilies
4-5-22, 10:06am
I am confused about the title--are you asking what kind of influence parents should have on what is taught? Or what should be taught? Or what is the question?
All of that!
i will start:
what reasonable, practical financial life skills can be taught. To teachers here, what is currently taught? SHOULD public schools be a part of a student’s financial education?
Back decades ago i vaguely remember a unit on household budgeting in Home Economicsl class. Remember Home economics class? Haha, girls had to take it. But anyway—I take issue with teaching “ budgeting “ as a basic financial skill since I myself find that concept lame, and I have observed too many houaeholds who “budget” but they do not build wealth.
but should”building wealth” be a life value? Hell, yes! Hahahaha. That is entirely a value judgement. To be taught in schools? Hmmmm….
iris lilies
4-5-22, 10:09am
Had a mental list of who would start this thread. Yes, you were on it, IL. :D
At your service, ma’am.
I believe some schools have a "life skills" class; money management would fit in there.
To respond to Alan--parents should be able to register their concerns, but not run the show. There are lots of private and/or religious schools and, of course, home schooling options available for parents who are afraid their children are being unduly influenced.
I think it’s a good thing to provide kids with basic financial skills and concepts. I also think it’s a good idea to ground them in the traditional academic subjects, where we seem to be increasingly less competitive with other countries who spend a great deal less on education than we do.
I think it’s a terrible idea to expect public employees to inflict the latest fashions in ideological codswallop on little children. Call it Critical Race Theory, Values Education, Social Emotional Learning, or any other alias you think will fool the unenlightened public. We don’t need teachers in the role of therapist, commissar or guru. We need them to up their game on teaching math and reading.
I also think public education should be governed at the local level rather than by some grand vizier in Washington. I’ll take angry parents at school board meetings over some condescending technocrat who wants to brand them as terrorists.
I tend to like the Waldorf model--a very experiential, multi-disciplinary approach to learning. If I could go back in time and recoup 30 years, I'd love to start a school like that. Something that wouldn't sideline studients the way my son was sidelined and made to feel like a failure.
I agree with LDAHL that basic skills have been sacrificed. In elementary school, social values should be restricted to making sure that individual teachers are respecting every individual student and I could see some type of training for teachers in how to identify personal biases. In high school, critical thinking should be focused on. Classics are still relevant.
Having taught 4th grade in the public school for 31 years, but now retired for 20 years...my opinion..Pre-K and .Kindergarten should be for playing and exploring ...being read to...looking at books...puzzles...All things that cannot be "tested" and therefore are considered unimportant by the "powers that be". Grades 1 and 2 focus on reading.literacy, writing, number sense and number facts, computer things that teach systems. Grades 3 and 4 they should be able to do all math by then...little steps. Believe me those who had learned their number facts did much better, no matter how math was deemed to be taught. Science and social studies more in depth, but with the amazing books available now, many of those concepts can come through reading a wide variety of books. Through it all the teaching of kindness, honesty, seeing more than your own viewpoint, problem solving not just in math but in all areas ( again, books are a great resource) The current method of requiring 4 and 5 year olds to read and write for a test only makes the late bloomers feel stupid. No 4 year old should feel stupid. No major standardized testing until 4th or 5th grade. Of course, PE Art and Music galore!
I agree with LDAHL that basic skills have been sacrificed. In elementary school, social values should be restricted to making sure that individual teachers are respecting every individual student and I could see some type of training for teachers in how to identify personal biases. In high school, critical thinking should be focused on. Classics are still relevant.
Good points. I’m more concerned about the teachers’ values than the students’. The recent agitation to label the Classics as racist or imperialist is barbaric.
...
I think it’s a terrible idea to expect public employees to inflict the latest fashions in ideological codswallop on little children. Call it Critical Race Theory, Values Education, Social Emotional Learning, or any other alias you think will fool the unenlightened public. We don’t need teachers in the role of therapist, commissar or guru. We need them to up their game on teaching math and reading. ...
I couldn't agree more that a solid grounding in the basics should be emphasized, and that ed school fads should be looked at with a skeptical eye. Critical race theory doesn't, and never has, been a factor outside of law school, but American history shouldn't be whitewashed or sanitized.
Also, mobs of screaming parents--many of whom have no connection whatsoever to the school boards under assault--threatening board members with mayhem, can reasonably be characterized as "terrorizing" people just trying to do their jobs.
I couldn't agree more that a solid grounding in the basics should be emphasized, and that ed school fads should be looked at with a skeptical eye. Critical race theory doesn't, and never has, been a factor outside of law school, but American history shouldn't be whitewashed or sanitized.
Also, mobs of screaming parents--many of whom have no connection whatsoever to the school boards under assault--threatening board members with mayhem, can reasonably be characterized as "terrorizing" people just trying to do their jobs.
People spend a lot of time splitting hairs to convey that their latest foray into race essentialism isn’t technically CRT. Fine. Call it what you will, as the cartoon says “I say it’s spinach, and I say to hell with it”. I find it suspicious that so many districts resist publishing curricula for fear of people finding out what they’re teaching.
As far as angry parents go, I find it telling that AG Garland seemed to solicit requests to set the FBI against people. The “mostly peaceful” standard doesn’t seem to apply here.
Chicken lady
4-5-22, 12:49pm
Unfortunately LDAHL, we do need teachers in the role of therapists. Because we don’t have easily accessible therapists. And I can’t teach a kid anything when they are mostly focused on not throwing up from anxiety, or not crying over whatever is making them want to cry, or not lashing out inappropriately with totally appropriate anger they have no way to channel.
And we need to affirm kid’s identities and every healthy family, because kids don’t learn when they don’t feel safe.
I had a class two years ago with one kid of a different ideology (an ideology I do not share btw) and I found myself arguing from his position with the rest of the class frequently. Because I knew he was afraid to stand up for it. Now and then I could get him to throw me a piece of supporting information. But not often. But you know what - he stayed in school. And his twin in another class group did not.
ApatheticNoMore
4-5-22, 12:50pm
Maybe parents should have some influence as a group, but saying parental influence should be everything, no way. No way.
You need a license to teach, you don't need a license to become a parent, and many parents are not fit for the job (but alas unless really extreme things are happening and child protective services gets involved, they can't be fired from it). So no people with no qualifications should not be able to dictate everything to licensed teachers.
To respond to Alan--parents should be able to register their concerns, but not run the show. There are lots of private and/or religious schools and, of course, home schooling options available for parents who are afraid their children are being unduly influenced.
Since my comments on the subject that JP1 raised are in another thread our trusty readers may have to go there to see that I specifically referenced public schools in my response. I'm sure you're correct in that parents who wish their children to be educated in victimization, oppression and gender studies could find a private school or simply teach them themselves.
...I'm sure you're correct in that parents who wish their children to be educated in victimization, oppression and gender studies could find a private school or simply teach them themselves.
Not to mention religious indoctrination.
Based on my limited-time (so far) experience as a middle school custodian - if the conditions of bathrooms, classrooms and hallways at the end of EVERY DAY are any indication of what is going on in school - I would have to say a lot of destructive, defiant, "don't care", etc. attitudes and behaviors on the part of students and, yes, even some teachers. Granted I'm speaking from seeing the end results of a day in a classroom, but it must have been a hell of a day! (I'll spare everyone specifics.) Suffice to say that some teachers try and others don't; some kids are there to learn and others are not; some parents are involved and some are not - and some in good ways and others in bad ways! The kids don't seem to be afraid of the teachers, administrators and in some cases even their parents and their behavior and attitude show it. The state rules for public schools make it difficult for any disciplinary actions that seems to work. I don't have any answers, but this job has opened my eyes to the fact that sending a kid off to school is nothing like when I went off to school. I know I'm rambling and I don't have any answers, but unless you are somehow directly involved AND in the buildings - you really don't know what actually is going on. Things like gender issues, religion, etc. - while maybe nice topics to educate everyone about, is often way down the list when it comes to day-to-day issues.
Again, rambling here. Sorry if it doesn't make much sense.
Not to mention religious indoctrination.
Of course we've had that discussion many times over the years. I find it curious though that the people most likely to fear the taint of religious indoctrination seem to be most welcome to other forms of indoctrination, although mostly for other people's kids it seems.
ApatheticNoMore
4-5-22, 1:15pm
It was ages ago I went to junior high, for heavens sake I'm in my 40s, and it DID SEEM that bad then. It was chaos. So I'm not impressed that this is something new. Maybe it's even worse, but it was total chaos then too. By the way custodians finding things a total mess is a story I've heard from custodians in retail establishments etc., so it's not exclusively some school thing.
It was ages ago I went to junior high, for heavens sake I'm in my 40s, and it DID SEEM that bad then. It was chaos. So I'm not impressed that this is something new. Maybe it's even worse, but it was total chaos then too. By the way custodians finding things a total mess is a story I've heard from custodians in retail establishments etc., so it's not exclusively some school thing.
Well, just to clarify, I'm not talking just "a total mess". I'm talking actual filth. There is a reason custodians wear gloves!
Some of us older folk here grew up in the 50s-60s. I don't know about you but we learned the basics along with an insistence on civility towards each other. Memorization was key and probably did help develop certain brain skills. Art and music classes were considered important to a well-rounded education. There was plenty of outside time. I agree that parenting skills are abysmal right now so teachers have their hands full just trying to maintain order. When I volunteered here at a local public kindergarten, there was always a handful of disruptive students who took much of the teachers time. They shouldn't have been in the classroom regardless of the cause of their behavior. We have in our city the current mob of parents who are joining and/or threatening school boards and demanding control of classroom curricula. It's a mess...and I am glad to not have little ones right now.
Some of us older folk here grew up in the 50s-60s. I don't know about you but we learned the basics along with an insistence on civility towards each other. Memorization was key and probably did help develop certain brain skills. Art and music classes were considered important to a well-rounded education. There was plenty of outside time. I agree that parenting skills are abysmal right now so teachers have their hands full just trying to maintain order. When I volunteered here at a local public kindergarten, there was always a handful of disruptive students who took much of the teachers time. They shouldn't have been in the classroom regardless of the cause of their behavior. We have in our city the current mob of parents who are joining and/or threatening school boards and demanding control of classroom curricula. It's a mess...and I am glad to not have little ones right now.
I’m 53. Graduated from high school in 1987. Shop and home ec still existed in some fashion. The basics seem to be disregarded these days from what friends with kids say. Too much teaching to tests. The cause of the month/year has no place in school.
I’m 53. Graduated from high school in 1987. Shop and home ec still existed in some fashion.
I'm 59, and took the home ec classes instead of the shop classes, because home ec had cookies.
ApatheticNoMore
4-5-22, 3:06pm
There was no home ec at school and shop was purely optional. I was taught by my mom how to make cookies, and to sew (I never sew, and stare helplessly at a button I should be able to sew back on, but it wasn't like there wasn't some attempt to get it in my head, there was). I try not to make cookies, I eat too many sweets already, but I know how, for sure.
Home ec was wasted on me, and I wasn't offered shop--more's the pity.
ToomuchStuff
4-5-22, 6:07pm
Home EC was in 7th grade, haven't sewn since then.
Middle school had shop, but by the time high school rolled around, shop class was always full and had way more people wanting it, then they had adult supervision. I think they canceled most of them by the time I graduated.
I would say I learned more shop the hard way, taking care of a house since 14 and my grandmother taking me to the family mechanic, where I learned some stuff.
Of course we've had that discussion many times over the years. I find it curious though that the people most likely to fear the taint of religious indoctrination seem to be most welcome to other forms of indoctrination, although mostly for other people's kids it seems.
So teaching kids that not everyone is a straight cisgender white christian is indoctrination? Please expand on this thought. I'd love to learn more about it.
I'm also curious about my question on the other thread of whether you think that we should be equally cautious about having teachers mention the "heterosexual lifestyle" as some people seem to be about other lifestyles. Since those people don't specifically mention them I can only assume that they are referring to the "homosexual lifestyle" and the "transgender lifestyle". If I'm incorrect in that assumption I'd love for you to correct and clarify.
And for the record I don't have a homosexual "lifestyle" I have a homosexual life just as you have a heterosexual life, not a heterosexual lifestyle. If you can't understand the effing difference then our conversation is done.
I don't think that public school is the place to discuss sexual identity and preference issues. But that's just me.
I don't think that public school is the place to discuss sexual identity and preference issues. But that's just me.
So as a teacher what do you tell the kid with two mommies or two daddies when they bring it up, either in class or one to one after class because they need an adult to talk to about something?
Or the 13 or 14 year old kid that says to you "I think I might be gay." or "I think I may be trans". Do you just say, "I'm sorry, I can't discuss this with you"?
Real life is messy. Teachers have to deal with it.
flowerseverywhere
4-6-22, 4:55am
An interesting story about the absurdity of the don’t say gay law.
https://amp.palmbeachpost.com/amp/7269733001
here in Florida, books are quietly being removed from shelves and teachers have expressed fear that a comment could be misconstrued and they could be fired or disciplined. But the most important point is why do people think we need laws like this? To satisfy the red faced angry Trump supporters, many of whom still believe democrats are running worldwide pedophile rings, voting machines were hacked, Jan 6 (which I can never unsee ) was a peaceful gathering and so on. I see and hear them every day.
now interestingly enough, when asked for specific cases of critical race theory or gender studies in grade schools there are none. However I can find numerous examples of Christian religion in schools and government. Perhaps most stunning to me is in Starkes Florida outside the courthouse there are giant gravestones with the Ten Commandments on them. Why?
A group of Atheists from New Jersey sued to have it removed but instead were allowed to construct an atheist monument. Now all this hullabaloo is not a good use of taxpayer money.
oh, the outrage of rich white christians being discriminated against. Boohooo
these days when I see these absurd issues that are figments of someone’s imagination (or maybe Tucker Carlsons) I fear for the future. There have been gay people since Moby Dick was a minnow. Like everything else, focus on reading, writing and math and all would be good. How about “live thy neighbor as yourself? Maybe any one one who is not gay, white and Christian should have separate taxpayer funded schools where they can put the fear of god in children and have gay conversion sessions for anyone who doesn’t fit their definition of a normal human being.
My granddaughter goes to public school first grade. Her classmates are of various colors and a couple have two mommies and it's not a big deal, that's just Sasha or Clair, like Jeannie has a mommie and a daddy, no biggie, or Mr. Smith the teacher has a husband. I think that is considered the norm in a big public school and I think it's great that everybody is everybody and that's the norm. No therapy necessary because everybody is everybody.
Just what I have observed.
Chicken lady
4-6-22, 6:21am
The current Ohio bill “states that any public school, community school, STEM school or private school that accepts vouchers "shall" not "teach, use, or provide any curriculum or instructional materials on sexual orientation or gender identity" in kindergarten through third grade.”
so, - Any story that includes two parents equally addresses the sexual orientation of those parents - so if you can’t have a book that incidentally includes two same sex parents, you can’t have a book that incidentally includes two opposite sex parents. I don’t care if that is your intent, that is the law.
children spend most of their lives in school. They don’t leave the rest of their lives at home when they walk into the classroom. Teens are constantly discussing the people they are dating. In my classroom that includes same sex relationships.
4 y.o.s are deeply interested in gender identity and what makes someone a boy or a girl. They will develop very rigid ideas - like “girls can’t play with trucks.” Can a teacher address that statement? What about the kindergartener who announces “boys can’t marry boys”? Because now the child with two married dads is angry, crying, and looking for support. What is the teacher allowed to say here?
one of my kids - who currently has a same sex relationship - would like to know if those of you who support this kind of thing think that it will magically make them straight. It was a genuine question. The kid also pointed out that abstinence only education has not had a significant effect on the likelihood of teens having sex (but in the case of at least two young people I know it has resulted in a surprise baby due to poor access to valid birth control information)
if your kid attends school, or has access to the internet, your kid is going to encounter a ton of information on sexuality, sexual orientation, and gender identity. And a lot if it is going to be bad. But by all means, let’s hamstring the teachers who genuinely care about your children and want them to grow up to be healthy, happy, functional adults. Because we all know that kids will definitely talk to their parents about this stuff.
In case it isn’t clear to you yet -lol- yes, I’m one of these horrible liberal teachers. I once turned an art class full of young women into a class on human reproduction when it became clear from their conversation that several of them were genuinely ignorant about the structure and function of their reproductive organs. - the conversation in question involved the fact that one of the ignorant ones had just been put on chemical birth control by a doctor who didn’t bother to discuss biology. I was willing to get fired over that one. I got one phone call. From the mom of a girl who already had all the information I offered, and went home and discussed the “lesson” with her mom. The mom wanted to thank me for caring.
all the girls were at least 16 and had had state supported health and biology classes. I started the “lesson” with “hang on, do you guys know what a uterus is?” I drew the female reproductive organs on the board and there were a LOT of questions. Including “so, wait, where does the period stuff come from?” (No, you are not bleeding directly from your circulatory system.)
flowerseverywhere, some states have vouchers for religious schools - so that system already exists in those places. But technically it won’t exist in Ohio if the law passes - the law specifically states that such schools won’t be allowed to teach about gender orienting or identity - again, as written, the law bans teaching heteronormativity equally.
yes, someone will sue.
An interesting story about the absurdity of the don’t say gay law.
Maybe any one one who is not gay, white and Christian should have separate taxpayer funded schools where they can put the fear of god in children and have gay conversion sessions for anyone who doesn’t fit their definition of a normal human being.
In Maine it is illegal to engage in conversion therapy and any therapist doing so will lose their license to practice.
On the other hand, my grandson's teacher in Indiana, who is nine, came home from school and stated that his teacher told the class that Covid was a bioweapon engineered by folks who live in that country.
Teachers will always be teaching, I guess.
I don't have children, and I barely even know any children, so this is not a topic I am passionate about, and take what I say with a grain of salt for sure.
Financial literacy - I do think this should be taught in public schools since it turns out to be pretty fundamental to living a successful life. Of course it would be great if it was taught at home, but since home is often going to model poor financial life's skills, I don't think we can count on it being taught at home.
Sexuality - I think when kids reach the age when sex education is on the curriculum, it's appropriate to include transgenderism and sexual orientation.
When I was a kid, it was very rare for both parents to be working outside the home. This now seems to be the rule rather than the exception, so I can see where teachers have to pick up the slack for matters that used to be outside of their wheelhouses. There are probably kids who spend more waking hours in the presence of their teachers than their parents.
As far as indoctrination goes, teachers are human, and their biases are often going to come through, intentionally or not. I have a Facebook friend in FL who is a pro-Trump, militant conservative Christian, who teaches Atlas Shrugged in her English class (she believes this is one of the greatest works of literature ever written). I can remember teachers in HS who were clearly enamored of socialism, and talked up the benefits without any of the disadvantages. But I remember being aware of it at the time, so that's just another good reason that critical thinking skills need to be taught.
That's so funny that your Facebook friend identifies as a conservative Christian and yet teaches Atlas Shrugged, which is about the least Christian book on the planet.
That's so funny that your Facebook friend identifies as a conservative Christian and yet teaches Atlas Shrugged, which is about the least Christian book on the planet.
Yeah, she's one of those other types of Christians that doesn't seem to pay much attention to the teachings of JC. In seeing the things she posts on FB, I feel like the cognitive dissonance in her head must surely be painful.
I obviously haven’t been a public school student in decades nor do I have kids or know many but from what I can tell it probably wouldn’t fly for an eighth grade English teacher to show the entirety of The Who’s movie Tommy to the class as mine did back in 1981. He was quite a popular teacher. Today he’d probably be fired.
I obviously haven’t been a public school student in decades nor do I have kids or know many but from what I can tell it probably wouldn’t fly for an eighth grade English teacher to show the entirety of The Who’s movie Tommy to the class as mine did back in 1981. He was quite a popular teacher. Today he’d probably be fired.
Oh, I don't know about that. Some of the complaints from parents which helped initiate the current rash of state laws which everyone seems to be up in arms about revolved around things like middle schoolers being provided books dealing with interpersonal relationships which featured color illustrations of young teenage boys performing oral sex on other teenage boys. Then there's the middle school classroom with 'Men Can Bleed Too' posters showing apparent men in bloody underwear. I don't think anyone lost their jobs for those or for many other examples of schools or teachers who carried things a bit too far for most parent's comfort.
As I understand it, that's the sort of thing these laws are trying to deal with. Regardless of how they're portrayed in the media or in these forums, I'm not aware of any discrimination against LGBTQ persons, ideas or concepts within the legislation. I believe it's all about preventing discussion of or instruction in sexual issues until students are age appropriate, whatever age that may be.
Am I missing something?
Oh, I don't know about that. Some of the complaints from parents which helped initiate the current rash of state laws which everyone seems to be up in arms about revolved around things like middle schoolers being provided books dealing with interpersonal relationships which featured color illustrations of young teenage boys performing oral sex on other teenage boys. Then there's the middle school classroom with 'Men Can Bleed Too' posters showing apparent men in bloody underwear. I don't think anyone lost their jobs for those or for many other examples of schools or teachers who carried things a bit too far for most parent's comfort.
As I understand it, that's the sort of thing these laws are trying to deal with. Regardless of how they're portrayed in the media or in these forums, I'm not aware of any discrimination against LGBTQ persons, ideas or concepts within the legislation. I believe it's all about preventing discussion of or instruction in sexual issues until students are age appropriate, whatever age that may be.
Am I missing something?
Are there reliable sources for the examples you provided? Were these sex ed texts? Did they illustrate heterosexual acts, too?
Are there reliable sources for the examples you provided?
Probably not that you'd find reliable. ;)
Were these sex ed texts?
Not sure about the book, is proper blow job etiquette part of today's sex ed? I believe the poster was displayed in an art class.
Did they illustrate heterosexual acts, too?
I don't know, are you suggesting those concerned parents would find that acceptable for their middle schoolers?
By all means share the links with us. We can assess for ourselves whether they have any basis in reality or read more like a screed from an idiot ****tard like Marjorie Taylor Greene.
iris lilies
4-6-22, 11:15pm
I say this knowing no middle schoolsers, but according to .mr. google that age range is 10-14.
That’s why sex ed, library materials, and etc is so freakin’ complex because there can be a world of difference betwwen an immature 10 year old and a mature 24 year old.
There is sex in books written for middle school years so I would imagine the sex comes in all variations. There are some book challenges at school board meetings in St. Louis County, it was the usual stuff. I’m just shaking my head because books are the least of the problem with raunchy material, but the key comes when it is used in instruction for all.
Probably not that you'd find reliable. ;)
Not sure about the book, is proper blow job etiquette part of today's sex ed? I believe the poster was displayed in an art class.
I don't know, are you suggesting those concerned parents would find that acceptable for their middle schoolers?
When I was that age, sex ed consisted of cartoons of swimming sperm, diagrams, that kind of thing. I'm sure today's offerings would leave me speechless. Parents used to be able to opt out, if I remember correctly. But kids are curious, and the information is out there.
I have been unable to find the poster you mentioned.
I remember the first of my school-provided sex ed was in 5th grade, so we were 10 -11 years old. We watched a film that was much like Jane described. Afterwards, the teacher asked if there were any questions, and one kid asked how the man's sperm got together with the woman's egg. The teach answered that it swam, so what we got was sex education without the sex, lol. I hope they are doing a better job of things now.
I had the advantage of an RN mother who sat down with me and a book and had an intelligent discussion before the classroom thing. I did think it all sounded rather disgusting and not anything I would ever consider doing! :laff:
Well, I went to Catholic school, so you can image the sex ed I got (zero). I remember the nun saying once that "sex is a gift from God" but when it came time for the 8th grade dance, she made the girls dance with girls and boys dance with boys. And frankly, my parents didn't do much better in that department. The only gift I still have from my father is a book he gave me about relationships when I was 13 called "20th Century Teenagers" written by a priest--here's a quote: "Kisses may seem harmless, but all date kissing leads to occasions of sin." I'm sure there are better ways to teach kids about sex, in and out of the classroom.
Culture wars aside, if our system is turning out so many people who can’t read, write or find their own country on a map, isn’t any time wasted on historical grievance, gender politics or moral instruction serving to make us more stupid as a people?
iris lilies
4-7-22, 9:57am
Culture wars aside, if our system is turning out so many people who can’t read, write or find their own country on a map, isn’t any time wasted on historical grievance, gender politics or moral instruction serving to make us more stupid as a people?
But we will be a woke people.
I saw a letter from a local teacher in the newspaper today. She said that a majority of her students are a mess as they get no real parenting at home. She said teaching them anything successfully is fruitless unless parents are more involved or interested in their education.They come to class with a broad spectrum of mental health issues - anxiety, anger, fear etc.
flowerseverywhere
4-7-22, 11:39am
Culture wars aside, if our system is turning out so many people who can’t read, write or find their own country on a map, isn’t any time wasted on historical grievance, gender politics or moral instruction serving to make us more stupid as a people?
Exactly. I also was unable to find anything that Alan mentioned. But then again, Florida just passed a law to ban standardized testing so even if such testing has flaws who will know if they are far underperforming or exceeding standards compared to the rest of the country.
Of course, any sane person knows depicting what Alan alleged is totally inappropriate in schools. however you have to be living in isolation to believe Even young kids see far more on the internet or even on Primetime TV.
Of course, any sane person knows depicting what Alan alleged is totally inappropriate in schools. however you have to be living in isolation to believe Even young kids see far more on the internet or even on Primetime TV.
That's true, but responsible parents can take steps to control their children's access to adult content on the internet and TV. It gets a bit harder to control in some public school districts where parents concerns are ignored.
By all means share the links with us. We can assess for ourselves whether they have any basis in reality or read more like a screed from an idiot ****tard like Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Most of that came from a twitter thread I happened across several weeks ago. If I run across it again I'll provide the links for you to explore and discredit.
ApatheticNoMore
4-7-22, 12:46pm
Culture wars aside, if our system is turning out so many people who can’t read, write or find their own country on a map, isn’t any time wasted on historical grievance, gender politics or moral instruction serving to make us more stupid as a people?
but I don't think there is any shortage of time spent in school to cover all of it. That so much of it seems irrelevant and is quickly forgotten doesn't mean we don't all spend forever and a day in K-12. I still remember stuff from high school biology class (not sexual stuff really that wasn't covered in school AT ALL, nor by one's parents of course) because it was interesting and I liked reading biology textbooks (there wasn't that much lab). So I liked that class. History and math, it's harder. The physical skill of typing I used forever after, but they shouldn't have wasted time on it, probably, they should have spent it on something more forgettable.
Exactly. I also was unable to find anything that Alan mentioned. But then again, Florida just passed a law to ban standardized testing so even if such testing has flaws who will know if they are far underperforming or exceeding standards compared to the rest of the country.
Of course, any sane person knows depicting what Alan alleged is totally inappropriate in schools. however you have to be living in isolation to believe Even young kids see far more on the internet or even on Primetime TV.
I read they were replacing standardized testing with something called progress monitoring testing. Not sure what the difference is.
Most of that came from a twitter thread I happened across several weeks ago. If I run across it again I'll provide the links for you to explore and discredit.
I probably won't be able to discredit it then. Everything I've ever read on twitter is true. Just the other day I read on there that Susan Collins, Mitt Romney and Lisa Murkowski are all pro-pedophile. That was certainly surprising to me and seemed unlikely but I don't ever doubt the twitter.
ApatheticNoMore
4-7-22, 3:34pm
I probably won't be able to discredit it then. Everything I've ever read on twitter is true. Just the other day I read on there that Susan Collins, Mitt Romney and Lisa Murkowski are all pro-pedophile. That was certainly surprising to me and seemed unlikely but I don't ever doubt the twitter.
Yea I just laugh, it was on the internet so it must be true. I think currently twitter can be a great resource, but oh boy do you have to check sources. And then for heavens sake contextualize them, like is endless uproar over 1 teacher in a country of 330 million, even if it turns out to be true, well okay it doesn't mean much, maybe they should be disciplined or fired but it's completely nuts to create laws for that, and perhaps people have other agendas.
Well, I went to Catholic school, so you can image the sex ed I got (zero). I remember the nun saying once that "sex is a gift from God" but when it came time for the 8th grade dance, she made the girls dance with girls and boys dance with boys. And frankly, my parents didn't do much better in that department. The only gift I still have from my father is a book he gave me about relationships when I was 13 called "20th Century Teenagers" written by a priest--here's a quote: "Kisses may seem harmless, but all date kissing leads to occasions of sin." I'm sure there are better ways to teach kids about sex, in and out of the classroom.
Clear case of "grooming..." :~)
Or, given the source, maybe "recruiting."
Most of that came from a twitter thread I happened across several weeks ago. If I run across it again I'll provide the links for you to explore and discredit.
I did find a brief discussion of "bleeding men." Apparently, it refers to menstruating transmen.
Clear case of "grooming..." :~)
Or, given the source, maybe "recruiting."
I don't know about the experiences of others who came of age in the 50s and 60s but I know there was always a black cloud of fear of pregnancy that permeated female adolescence at that time. There was no reliable birth control, and there was tremendous shame over getting pregnant--your only two choices were get shipped off to "relatives" for 9 months or have a shotgun wedding before you started to show.
Given those circumstances, I can almost understand why parents and teachers (especially parochial teachers) tended to put the fear of the devil in you. We've come a long way.
flowerseverywhere
4-7-22, 6:27pm
That's true, but responsible parents can take steps to control their children's access to adult content on the internet and TV. It gets a bit harder to control in some public school districts where parents concerns are ignored.
Responsible parents try to. Once a child is out of the home, playing with other kids or in their homes, it is tremendously difficult to monitor the speech and images they are exposed to. I'm not saying give up on it, but parents must be aware that there are bigger boogeyman out there than the very large majority of teachers who are trying to teach kids. Plus if they ban books, they should ban all mention of any religious holiday. Parental rights and all.
flowerseverywhere
4-7-22, 6:39pm
I read they were replacing standardized testing with something called progress monitoring testing. Not sure what the difference is.
It is supposed to be short computer testing (even on computer for the kindergardeners) three times a year. The teachers association does not like it. I suspect it costs less.
Here is the best of all. You only need a high school education or equivalent to substitute teach. Plus pass a criminal test. I am far more concerned about someone off the street with no formal teacher training or experience not even realizing what is inappropriate in a classroom. And $65 a day for a HS diploma sub is not much incentive to worry about it.
ToomuchStuff
4-7-22, 10:08pm
That's true, but responsible parents can take steps to control their children's access to adult content on the internet and TV. It gets a bit harder to control in some public school districts where parents concerns are ignored.
At their own homes. Outside of their own homes, from friends houses, to stores with tv's on and free internet access, etc. etc. etc. They can't really do much.
And it only gets worse if the kids are actively seeking out ways of finding out things.
I don't know about the experiences of others who came of age in the 50s and 60s but I know there was always a black cloud of fear of pregnancy that permeated female adolescence at that time. There was no reliable birth control, and there was tremendous shame over getting pregnant--your only two choices were get shipped off to "relatives" for 9 months or have a shotgun wedding before you started to show.
Given those circumstances, I can almost understand why parents and teachers (especially parochial teachers) tended to put the fear of the devil in you. We've come a long way.
You want to put fear in them, you need to go from my childhood. Instead of explaining sex at a younger age (waited for the schools to go over fundamentals), their fear about a relative being a sexual predator, was instead connected to (think of the worst person you know and what they did), a serial killer. By the time puberty hit and I understood sex, a wet dream involved being vivisected while trying to keep the perp occupied, so the gal had a better chance of getting away.
Parents went from not letting us play outside when they weren't home (after I was abducted out of the back yard, when they WERE home), to instead letting us run free in stores *where it was "safe", pre Adam alerts*, and taking me to a place where the only place I was interested in, had pocket knives from his victims, as well as their skulls. (local serial killer)
It should be much less about "protections" and more about teaching values and why we value x or y.
ApatheticNoMore
4-8-22, 3:47am
But the most important point is why do people think we need laws like this?
reading the laws they almost just seem like parental tyranny. I mean it forbids discussions of mental and physical health without the parent having a right to be informed or something. I mean maybe someone thinks that means sex or transsexuality and it could, but couldn't it be just discussing why the child comes to school with unexplained bruises and so on? I mean discussing family abuse is a discussion of mental and physical health. Rights of the parent? Ok but if we are getting into that don't we need to consider rights of the child? Because, no they are not adults, nor infinitely wise, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have some rights and protections (from abuse absolutely - and however many QAnon nuts think this happens mostly in schools, a bit here and there, but no, it happens mostly in families).
"and however many QAnon nuts think this happens mostly in schools, a bit here and there, but no, it happens mostly in families)."
Exactly, although QAnon seems impervious to reason, by design. They've revived the idea of blood libel https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/blood-libel , and are undermining their dupes' faith in any authority but theirs--a classic tactic.
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