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So as usual things are worse than expected, and to avert catastrophe we must take more aggressive action to stop climate change from accelerating even more. One recommendation is everyone eat a plant based diet. Are you in?
"Yet public officials and private investors alike have so far shown little appetite for the massive upfront investments and aggressive social change it is likely to take to move the world away from its long reliance on coal, oil and gas." Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/04/04/climate-change-report-united-nations-ipcc/)
This is such a complex issue that certainly won't be addressed just by getting people to eat less meat, never mind no meat. The issues are deeply systemic: It's industrial farming practice more than the individual who wants to eat meat. If people would restrict meat-eating to only eating from farms that practice humane, regenerative farming methods, maybe the industry would have to adapt to consumer demands.
I was vegetarian for 10 years for ethical, health and environmental reasons. I eat meat now--only if it comes from one of the small, local providers. But I can afford the premiums costs. How many people are going to choose beef or chicken or pork that is twice as much as factory-farmed meat, as awful as that practice is? One of my arguments when I was vegetarian is that meat eating is more expensive then eating plant-based foods, but one of the things I learned from my discussions with my meat-eating friends eating meat is completely ingrained in culture, family, and hedonism, and there are so few people who buy into vegetarianism for those reasons.
I'm sure you have encountered the same resistance in discussions with your meat-eating friends, Jeppy. I think it comes down to, you can only change yourself. I think there are other aspects of climate change mitigation that will be easier to to sell to the public than trying to change how we/they eat.
So, yeah, aggressive social change as mentioned in the quote above. In my mental meanderings about what needs to be done, and the space between "everything's fine--it will work out" and "we have to aggressively start churning out renewable technologies"--my question always comes back to, this is a Morton's Fork until we can control growth. Growing more is not going to solve the problem. Wind turbines and solar panels are another industrial input that will generate its own problems in terms of land base and wildlife devastation.
Until we can look at the value of life in all its forms, and live accordingly, I'm not too optimistic that anything the UN says about climate change is going to do any good.
Teacher Terry
4-7-22, 7:11pm
Considering that I only like 2 veggies the answer is no.
ApatheticNoMore
4-7-22, 7:32pm
I like veggies a lot, but my diet is maybe closest to Mediterranean diet and that's not vegetarian.
From experts on the topic I've gotten that about 15% of global warming comes from animal agriculture. So that's not nothing, but it leaves the other 85%, which comes from extracting and burning fossil fuels. And that's what needs to be curtailed. Addressing the 15% without addressing that isn't enough.
So the ultimate goal is not burning fossil fuels let's say and maybe animal agriculture emissions should also be looked at, but 85% the former and 15% the latter. So we have to aggressively start churning out renewable technologies actually does seem to be expert opinion on how to get there. Basically switching the power grid to renewables (maybe with some nuclear) would do a lot and switching all household heating to electric etc.. This isn't to say that everyone believes in endless growth. When the IPCC itself discusses degrowth. But if the immediate limit is fossil carbon in the atmosphere then stop burning fossil fuels is kind of the point.
But if the immediate limit is fossil carbon in the atmosphere then stop burning fossil fuels is kind of the point.
Yes, but the how is as important as the why...
I didn't realize the IPCC report talked about degrowth, but I looked it up and they did, in a couple of places in the report.
"Coincidentally" on FB this video came up that is very relevant to this topic. Interesting discussion. About 20 minutes in length.
https://www.facebook.com/ewg.org/videos/1085958261996518
I'm not in. I was a vegetarian for maybe six years, don't eat meat every day, and aim for locally-raised grass-fed beef. Also, I drive about 1000 miles a year (less lately), and made a choice not to reproduce.
ToomuchStuff
4-7-22, 9:58pm
I remember this and part of why it is so hard to get people to agree on things.
https://youtu.be/y564PsKvNZs
All this "save the planet stuff", the planet will survive, and this might just be a correction from the environment, slowing or reversing the population of man, to a more environmentally friendly amount.
We are no different then surplus deer populations, in the big picture.
I believe the planet will outlast us, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
ApatheticNoMore
4-7-22, 10:22pm
Yea I don't think it matters? The problem is just there is a whole lot of suffering between here and natural extinction. I mean it's already pretty bad now, it's living between crisises (power is now out a bunch of places due to *April* heatwaves, it's pretty miserable). Every year one dreads summer. Future generations, ah well they are F-ed, pretty much. They will live and die in hell, unfortunately that's also true for many alive now.
I remember this and part of why it is so hard to get people to agree on things.
All this "save the planet stuff", the planet will survive, and this might just be a correction from the environment, slowing or reversing the population of man, to a more environmentally friendly amount.
We are no different then surplus deer populations, in the big picture.
If we were still living in the natural world, that would be true. But we are creating weapons of mass destruction of the planet with our overreach. We are out of balance. What we will get for our hubris will be the sad and unnecessary decimation of what took millennia to evolve to. It's such a damned waste.
Barring some sort of major astrological event, it's somewhat obvious the planet will survive. Even if we have a sixth extinction related to climate and humanity is decimated, in a few million or billion years another asteroid or ice age or volcanic event will reset planet life, if with a little luck some is left. And then sometime the sun will burn out and maybe the planet won't survive and extinction events won't matter. I tend to think more short term quality of human life and a rich and diverse natural world, like maybe for the next seven generations, as it goes.
Switching to electric heat is very expensive, and in most cases the electricity is generated from fossil fuels. Switching to a vegetarian diet is not costly. But not everyone is as focused on frugality as I am.
To me electric heat, like masks, is useless virtue signalling.
Barring some sort of major astrological event, it's somewhat obvious the planet will survive. Even if we have a sixth extinction related to climate and humanity is decimated, in a few million or billion years another asteroid or ice age or volcanic event will reset planet life, if with a little luck some is left. And then sometime the sun will burn out and maybe the planet won't survive and extinction events won't matter. I tend to think more short term quality of human life and a rich and diverse natural world, like maybe for the next seven generations, as it goes.
If someone said to you hey, let's party big time and I don't care if I burn my house and your house down doing it--and you say, "Yeah, why not! Someday someone else will build another house on the land." Is that how you would respond? Of course not. That's. my problem with the "oh, well, so we ruin the planet--there will be some life forms left to build off of in the future." That mindset doesn't make sense, and not only that, it's thumbing our noses at the Creator, however you want to define it/he/she. Our planet is miraculous in its complexity, balance and harmony, and we take it for granted.
We take care of our lawns, our buildings, our cars, our bodies, but the things that keep us alive--air, water, topsoil, oceans with fish, bees that pollinate to give us food--we don't think about taking care of those things? I really, really don't get that mindset. It's irresponsible-and yes--extremely short-sighted..
TMS, that's a great video, btw. He speaks to the complexity of the issue extremely well and covers so much in only 5 minutes. Thanks for sharing.
Here's another view of this complexity in a visual. Renewable energies also require a lot of fossil fuels, and industry will be eager to sell them and they won't consider other impacts. Cutting down trees for solar arrays. Killing birds with wind turbines. The world is not a machine--you blow a carburetor and it doesn't impact the brakes. Everything is related in the ecosystem.
4361
Two books - The Nutmeg's Curse and Braiding Sweetgrass - both talk about the loss of animacy, and the mechanistic view that allows us to see nature as merely resources. They have gotten me thinking. The Hidden Life of Trees and Finding the Mother Tree make some similar points.
It's also part of a mindset that we can conquer instead of learn to live with things like viruses.
Two books - The Nutmeg's Curse and Braiding Sweetgrass - both talk about the loss of animacy, and the mechanistic view that allows us to see nature as merely resources. They have gotten me thinking. The Hidden Life of Trees and Finding the Mother Tree make some similar points.
It's also part of a mindset that we can conquer instead of learn to live with things like viruses.
Very well said, Jeppy. I've read Braiding Sweetgrass and The Hidden Life of Trees.. both such great books. I like the chapter in Sweetgrass where she talks about how the English language helps to keep everything non-human as an object rather than a living being. Derrick Jensen always uses the pronoun "who" rather than "what" when talking about animate beings. "Who has dropped all these acorns on the ground?" English reduces everything except for humans to an "it."
One recommendation is everyone eat a plant based diet. Are you in?
No, the world is more nuanced than that.
I have very local, sustainable sources of meat and vegetables. Produced with practices that enhance topsoil instead of depleting it, and that do not pollute our watersheds.
I have to think that eating venison off my own land, or a goat grazed in my neighbor's unsuitable-for-veggy-crops field, or cheese made with milk from those goats is "better" for the environment than mega-agriculturally-sourced plant foods transported a large distance with fossil fuels.
There's plenty of material out there on the non-black/white nature of the issue.
ApatheticNoMore
4-8-22, 2:37pm
To me electric heat, like masks, is useless virtue signalling.
I honestly have begun to think that people that talk about virtue signaling maybe say more about themselves than anything. They think people care about signaling a whole awful lot, don't accept that people might just want to be virtuous for it's own sake - it's called living with oneself (and in terms of mask it might just be protecting one's health, not even *about* virtue at all), it's all about being seen as something. I don't know, we all care about others opinions to a degree, being human, but does this represent *that* strong a motive of almost anyone who isn't very young (and it's ok if a 13 year old is preoccupied with how they are seen, it's maybe normal for that stage of life, but seldom about virtue then either). And honestly is virtue EVEN valued that much socially, like probably get more respect being rich, or good looking, or famous, or charismatic or something.
And I wasn't talking about individuals switching to electric heat. I was talking about switching the grid over as possibly a major factor in reduced carbon usage
https://www.volts.wtf/p/on-climate-policy-theres-one-main
ToomuchStuff
4-8-22, 2:49pm
And I wasn't talking about individuals switching to electric heat. I was talking about switching the grid over as possibly a major factor in reduced carbon usage
https://www.volts.wtf/p/on-climate-policy-theres-one-main
How do you generate enough electricity for everywhere? Transmission and storage of that power? What happens at night, and/or when there is no wind? Do you go Nuclear, especially in disaster prone area's?
I prefer electric heat because it's clean, inexpensive, and doesn't require a CO detector. Also, it doesn't just randomly explode, catch fire, or suffocate you in your sleep. It doesn't require tank trucks or chain saws. It's hugely popular up here. Virtue signaling? Ridiculous.
I prefer electric heat because it's clean, inexpensive, and doesn't require a CO detector. Also, it doesn't just randomly explode, catch fire, or suffocate you in your sleep. It doesn't require tank trucks or chain saws. It's hugely popular up here. Virtue signaling? Ridiculous.
I don't smell my oil, it's cheaper than electric, and you buy a CO detector once as part of a combination with your smoke detector. If my electric were much cheaper or subsidized I would reconsider this. I am not required to be home when the oil is delivered and have found a company that is quick and reliable. I place my order online with a credit card. It is very easy. But I do live in a fairly populated area where there are numerous companies so there is competition to keep the price reasonable.
Electric power is predominant here--so much so that the legislature is trying to phase out most other forms of energy in the next 25 years. We'll see how that works. ;)
I grew up in an older house with oil heat, and it was OK except refills were inconvenient then. I wouldn't have natural gas if I had any choice in the matter.
Electric power is predominant here--so much so that the legislature is trying to phase out most other forms of energy in the next 25 years. We'll see how that works. ;)
My all-electric home’s power is a mixture of hydro and locally generated solar. I have a ~40kW share of a local solar coop which covers over an averaged year the majority of my electric power consumption. I also burn several cords of wood, from my own land and processed on-site, for peak heating.
I have a perfect roof for solar, minus two or three big trees. I'll leave that gift to the next owners. >8)
gimmethesimplelife
4-12-22, 1:06am
So as usual things are worse than expected, and to avert catastrophe we must take more aggressive action to stop climate change from accelerating even more. One recommendation is everyone eat a plant based diet. Are you in?Yes, I'm in. A silver lining to meat being more expensive? Maybe Americans will eat more rice and beans and veggies.
When the Mexican Peso collapsed in 1995 I think it was? Many Mexicans were forced to become vegetarian at least part time.....and other than for diabetes, the population as a whole became healthier. If meat is going to be a luxury item now I hope for similar better health outcomes in the US. We'll see. Rob
Yes, I'm in. A silver lining to meat being more expensive? Maybe Americans will eat more rice and beans and veggies.
Rice production is responsible for a noticeable chunk of the yearly human-aided greenhouse gas emissions...
gimmethesimplelife
4-12-22, 1:20am
One thing I miss about Portland.....the cheap utility bills. I understand they are no longer so cheap but my gas bill was around $17 a month and my electric was under $20. Part of the reason was after all those years in Phoenix I wanted to live in chilly rooms.
I set my thermostat at 55F - and this had nothing to do with money. I just had to experience chilly rooms. I went overboard with secondhand sweaters from Value Village (a thrift shop chain, I believe in some states operating under the name of Savers).and really came to love cold rooms.
I can see why old movie stars such as Joan Crawford and Cary Grant wanted to film in cold surroundings - cold weather, for me personally anyway, is equal to drinking energy drinks and no crash later. I am much more productive in cold. So I live in Phoenix, AZ - life happens. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-12-22, 1:22am
Rice production is responsible for a noticeable chunk of the yearly human-aided greenhouse gas emissions...Still healthier than meat methinks. I will look into rice production and greenhouse gas emissions - I did not know this. So, in other words, much like life. Easy answers are few and far between. Rob
Rice production is responsible for a noticeable chunk of the yearly human-aided greenhouse gas emissions...
Not to mention the arsenic...:~)
Teacher Terry
4-12-22, 11:36am
I had electric heat in upstate New York and Nevada. It costs a fortune in these states. We had 2 floors and would keep the heat upstairs at 50 until a few hours before bedtime and then turn downstairs down when going to bed. In 2012 our electric bill was 500 keeping a 1400 sq ft house at 68. Then we turned down everything to 55 except our bedroom when we went to bed. It was miserable in the morning until it warmed up.
ApatheticNoMore
4-12-22, 1:34pm
Still healthier than meat methinks.
yes it is, I've seen all those charts, it's surprising how much of a contribution rice makes being that it's just some grain, how bad can it really be for the climate. so it's more unexpected, but still red meat is significantly more, it's not comparable.
yes it is, I've seen all those charts, it's surprising how much of a contribution rice makes being that it's just some grain, how bad can it really be for the climate. so it's more unexpected, but still red meat is significantly more, it's not comparable.
What is the comparison between rice grown in desert fields in California and a grass-fed lamb that came from the field next door here?
ApatheticNoMore
4-12-22, 1:56pm
What is the comparison between rice grown in desert fields in California and a grass-fed lamb that came from the field next door here?
not useful to the majority of people trying to make a decision of what to eat. I mean one would starve before they could make a decision at the supermarket trying to figure all that out. What about lamb from New Zealand (major lamb producer)? Well actually I have looked into that at one point, the transportation from New Zealand seems to have less impact than the fact it is red meat.
not useful to the majority of people trying to make a decision of what to eat. I mean one would starve before they could make a decision at the supermarket trying to figure all that out. What about lamb from New Zealand? Well actually I have looked into that at one point, the transportation from New Zealand seems to have less impact than the fact it is red meat.
The more awareness and demand from consumers for grass-fed local meat, the more the market will respond. We buy what we value. I value grass-fed meat, so I will eat less meat overall so I can afford it. I don't spend a lot on convenience foods so I can afford the local meat. And I don't buy lamb flown in from New Zealand. I admit, I, like bae, am lucky because I can walk to my local meat producer, and there are others on the island. Certainly that's a luxury I don't take for granted. But any new idea is expensive to begin with until demand for it reaches a tipping point.
ApatheticNoMore
4-12-22, 2:03pm
And I don't buy lamb flown in from New Zealand
but like I said, surprisingly more carbon is in the fact it's red meat than that it's from New Zealand. I have eaten New Zealand lamb, tasty, but wondering how bad it's impact was. Yes not great, but it's not about the distance. So the only other lamb I know comes from Iceland, Colorado, or Ojai (I guess you could say that's localish, only available in spring, at the farmer's market)
What is the comparison between rice grown in desert fields in California and a grass-fed lamb that came from the field next door here?
Not a good comparison because rice is grown in many places - South Carolina being one of them. If you live on the West Coast maybe your rice is from California, but I doubt that is true for everyone.
ApatheticNoMore
4-12-22, 2:07pm
California rice has less arsenic than the south though
happystuff
4-14-22, 6:01pm
The more awareness and demand from consumers for grass-fed local meat, the more the market will respond. We buy what we value. I value grass-fed meat, so I will eat less meat overall so I can afford it. I don't spend a lot on convenience foods so I can afford the local meat. And I don't buy lamb flown in from New Zealand. I admit, I, like bae, am lucky because I can walk to my local meat producer, and there are others on the island. Certainly that's a luxury I don't take for granted. But any new idea is expensive to begin with until demand for it reaches a tipping point.
And while I would love to be able to purchase more grass-fed local meat, I simply can't afford it! Actually, we RARELY purchase and eat beef at home. It is more a treat when going out - at least for dh. But even higher priced meats like range-free chickens, etc. For a lot of people, $1.99/lbs will usually win out over $5.99/lbs. More often than not - like it or not - it comes down to price for a lot of people.
And while I would love to be able to purchase more grass-fed local meat, I simply can't afford it! Actually, we RARELY purchase and eat beef at home. It is more a treat when going out - at least for dh. But even higher priced meats like range-free chickens, etc. For a lot of people, $1.99/lbs will usually win out over $5.99/lbs. More often than not - like it or not - it comes down to price for a lot of people.
Exactly--of course the price is going to keep a lot of people from buying grass-fed beef. But if the price of grass-fed could get CLOSER to that of regular beef, what are the trade-offs then? For instance, our supermarket this week is selling 80/20 ground beef for $5/lb. My local producer has ground beef on sale (not sure of the fat content) for 10lbs. for $60. So that's $6 a lb.
I'm not asking you in particular, happystuff, but I'm curious to know at what point people would be willing to pay $1 more a lb knowing that the purchase is benefiting a small farmer and is better for the environment?
Or, taking it a step further, what can we do about making the food subsidies more equitable and instead of subsidizing Big Ag the way we are doing, provide subsidies to the smaller farmers until we can close the gap between local and industrial prices?
happystuff
4-15-22, 9:24am
I'm not asking you in particular, happystuff, but I'm curious to know at what point people would be willing to pay $1 more a lb knowing that the purchase is benefiting a small farmer and is better for the environment?
I don't mind answering. For me, it would be on those items that are already lower in price. For instance, I wouldn't be willing to pay $6/lbs versus $5/lbs because $5/lbs is still too expensive and doesn't fit into the grocery budget. However, paying $2.99/lbs versus $1.99/lbs might be possible sometimes.
frugal-one
4-15-22, 9:55am
Went to the local farm Weds and walked out. Wanted stew meat. It was $8/pound… not grass feed or organic. Told her she priced me out. I purchased stew meat there previously. It was a bit more but not as radically as now.
Teacher Terry
4-15-22, 11:34am
Right now I pay 6/lb for 93% lean hamburger at the cheapest grocery store in town. When raising the kids we couldn’t afford the healthier option but I am not going to sacrifice in my old age.
Right now I pay 6/lb for 93% lean hamburger at the cheapest grocery store in town. When raising the kids we couldn’t afford the healthier option but I am not going to sacrifice in my old age.
The cow I took delivery of just this December was $4.50/lb on-the-hoof, plus butcher's fees. This is for a healthy animal raised near my home by a friend whose agricultural practices are sane... An animal that lived a happy (though short) life, and never had to leave its open fields.
When I look at the super-inexpensive chicken, pork, and beef in the grocery store, I have a pretty good idea how those animals were raised, having raised critters myself, and I won't participate in that sort of industrial livestock production. It is cruel to the animals, and the resultant food product is nowhere near the quality.
ApatheticNoMore
4-15-22, 12:29pm
Well I only eat red meat once or twice a month, maybe I will make it once. So despite being really annoying to vegetarians talking about eating cute little lambs, I already limit red meat. And yes I generally buy grass fed and pay for it. And I buy organic chicken, sometimes heritage chicken but those are a fortune.
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