View Full Version : Musk, Twitter and free speech
flowerseverywhere
4-26-22, 2:24pm
What is allowable, in your opinion, as free speech?
With the purchase of twitter, I guess we are soon going to see this tested, as one mans idea of free speech may or may not align with the constitution. Where do you think this will go. I'm truly uncertain if anyone can counter the spam bots, hate speech such as threatening the life of a politician you don't agree with, and so on. And is removing them censorship?
The First Amendment does not apply to Twitter, it is not the government.
early morning
4-26-22, 3:00pm
I see no reason for anyone to complain about restrictions of free speech on twitter, as it (free speech, not twitter!) has just been removed from schools in many states. Personally, if twitter does not keep some sort of rules against hate speech and outright lies meant to inflame, I'd just as soon see IT banned, along with any totally unregulated social media. I have not that power, and it's just as well - I'm quite aware I could easily become a tyrant (for all the best causes, of course...) :devil:
I doubt very much that Twitter will become an 'anything goes' outlet, I suspect it will just become more balanced. It's been interesting these past few days seeing journalists decry the concept of free speech, it's all very Orwellian.
Musk has said he will reveal the algorithms to help stop spam bots.
I am very happy he has bought Twitter, and everyone I follow on Twitter is also.
A lot of the criticisms of him are invalid. For example, he is not a white supremacist. He left South Africa rather than be conscripted into an army enforcing apartheid. I also know other white South African emigres, including one in an interracial marriage, and none of them are racist. To paint them all is bigots is itself racist.
I think some people don't get Musk because he's autistic, and interested in ideas rather than accumulating wealth. (He does not have a house and sleeps at friends'.) For others the opposition is political.
ApatheticNoMore
4-26-22, 3:44pm
A few billionaires owning everything is really not great. Elon Musk is like Trump a cult of personality. So the Elon Musk fan club is a cult really, it's *very* cult-like.
A few billionaires owning everything is really not great. Elon Musk is like Trump a cult of personality. So the Elon Musk fan club is a cult really, it's *very* cult-like.
Having the Saudis own Twitter before was so much better, because they're not quite as rich.
A problem I have observed with Twitter over the past few years is that Twitter *does* ban, or what can be worse, shadow-ban users without any explanation, warning, or appeal mechanism. I believe these bannings are done algorithmically without human involvement.
Perhaps Musk will fix this.
A few billionaires owning everything is really not great. Elon Musk is like Trump a cult of personality. So the Elon Musk fan club is a cult really, it's *very* cult-like.
What have the Romans ever given us?
Well, what about Paypal? Online mapping/routing tools? Electric cars and charging infrastructure? Advanced battery technology? Spaceships? High speed affordable satellite Internet service to the world? Giant tunnel boring machines? Man-machine neural interfaces? Flamethrowers?
ApatheticNoMore
4-26-22, 3:59pm
the Saudi's didn't seem to do it any harm. Probably lots of people will just move to Tik Tok, owned by the Chinese government.
I don't think the problem is Elon Musk. It will be interesting to see what algorithms he comes up with to make this pillar of democracy truly democratic. The issue with social media is how the algorithms lead people down a narrower and narrower path of self-selected truths. And the other problem is that FB posts and tweets are often ignorant, repetitive snippets of sarcastic, insulting distortions of people and events--boiled down to a handful of words with no critical thinking behind them at all. Many are helpful, useful, but those particularly in the political sphere are often toxic--on both sides
Can those streams of angry, hostile, ignorant, targeted examples of free speech shift public opinion? Of course they can. I think Musk is optimistic if he thinks his reinvented Twitter will improve true public discourse.
I think the only real problem with Musk's vision of Twitter is the fear that other people will use it in the same manner the cool people do.
ApatheticNoMore
4-26-22, 4:21pm
It will be interesting to see what algorithms he comes up with to make this pillar of democracy truly democratic. The issue with social media is how the algorithms lead people down a narrower and narrower path of self-selected truths.
but that's easy just let people see posts from those they are following in chronological order. But I think twitter has such an option. And you can just navigate to an individual's feed. But it might somehow be narrow? Well yes but then it's a chosen narrow. I don't think many people on these platforms for news of the world, wouldn't rather be reading decent publications, or blogs even for a more critical perspective, but those days have come and gone. I don't for 5 seconds think Musk is in it to improve public discourse.
I think one of the algorithm issues may have to do with 'whats trending'. I've read that the feature sometimes appears to be promoting opinions in need of a wider audience than user interest would normally provide while ignoring more popular posts that may not meet some internal criteria.
ToomuchStuff
4-26-22, 6:27pm
It's been interesting these past few days seeing journalists decry the concept of free speech, it's all very Orwellian.
It is the old freedom of the press argument. Freedom of the press, as long as you own the press.
I wish him luck as opening up the algorithms, probably means new algorithms, to avoid any software patent issues.
I would be interested in actually seeing a full listing of what causes banning, as well as shadow banning, etc. It seemed like civil asset forfeiture, where one has to prove innocence, rather then guilt having to be proved.
ToomuchStuff
4-26-22, 6:41pm
Radio was saying Bezos was making some musk/media comments, while talking about how he owns the Washington post.
A relative sent me this, which I laughed at:
4425
ApatheticNoMore
4-26-22, 7:31pm
Noone loves that Bezo's owns the Washington Post (most of the time if referring to it I don't even call it that, I call it Bezo's publication etc.). It's bad, more bad stuff isn't going to make things better. But the Washington Post is so heavily paywalled, that who gets past the paywall even.
An interesting thing happened yesterday on Twitter, it seems that Democrats and liberal media personalities lost huge numbers of followers yesterday, some in the 10's of thousands while Republican and conservative personalities saw equal or more increases in followers. Ron DeSantis gained 96,000 in one day.
I can only surmise that liberals are abandoning the platform before having a chance to read something that may trigger them and conservatives are joining in hopes of actually being able to contribute.
Christopher Bouzy on Twitter: "I can understand Left-leaning accounts deciding to close their accounts after the Elon Musk news, but why the sudden significant increase in Republican followers? This is not normal. https://t.co/33P48sSROa" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/cbouzy/status/1518956619727577089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1518956619727577089%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fhotair.com%2Fjohn-s-2%2F2022%2F04%2F26%2Fwhat-is-going-on-with-twitter-follower-counts-progressives-lose-followers-while-conservatives-gain-them-n465109)
Not all the left-leaning accounts are bailing. Some are interested in what Musk has to say, but....
4426
So, how is this going to affect Truth Social? It seems like the minority of the country that supports trump are going to be spread awfully thin if they have to be active on two ‘free speech’ networks.
So, how is this going to affect Truth Social? It seems like the minority of the country that supports trump are going to be spread awfully thin if they have to be active on two ‘free speech’ networks.
Well, as I understand it, it is basically impossible to be active on Truth Social at the moment, as the website/app launch blew up on the launchpad.
There seem to be a lot of significant media failures lately. Jon Stewart’s show on AppleTV is shaping up to be a ratings tragedy. I hear Spotify is dropping the Obamas’ podcast. Trump’s oxymoronic Truth does seem to be blowing up on the pad. CNN spent $300 million on a streaming service, only to discover that people won’t pay for something that relatively few of them want to watch for free.
I have a Twitter account, but rarely check in. A million active troll accounts plus rampant misogyny and racism won't improve it. We'll see. I'm not likely to peruse "Troth Sencial" regardless.
My observation is that unattractive, humorless, charmless men can overcompensate by becoming obscenely rich and/or powerful--which I guess is no news to Henry Kissinger.
catherine
4-27-22, 10:25am
There seem to be a lot of significant media failures lately. Jon Stewart’s show on AppleTV is shaping up to be a ratings tragedy. I hear Spotify is dropping the Obamas’ podcast. Trump’s oxymoronic Truth does seem to be blowing up on the pad. CNN spent $300 million on a streaming service, only to discover that people won’t pay for something that relatively few of them want to watch for free.
I think we've reached the saturation point with the numbers and types of these types of offerings--all on all different platforms. It's too confusing. And too time-consuming to actually settle down and watch 30 minutes of content. Much better to learn from memes and tweets. More entertaining, too.
I think we've reached the saturation point with the numbers and types of these types of offerings--all on all different platforms. It's too confusing. And too time-consuming to actually settle down and watch 30 minutes of content. Much better to learn from memes and tweets. More entertaining, too.
I think that’s very true. With such a crowd of voices clamoring to explain the world to us, many have retreated into speaking in simplistic, symbolic terms and little cognitive cantonments to shut out ideas that make us feel “unsafe”. We are probably a dumber people for it.
But is that better than the “good old days” where a relatively small elite curated the news for us through a few broadcast outlets? That seems to be what the wannabe regulators seem to be aiming for.
Over time I suspect people will adapt. Just as they did when marketing first became a thing a century ago and ads that seem absurd to us today are now laughed at (more doctors smoke camels). Eventually humanity will learn to discern the BS. Hopefully the BS purveyors (this election was rigged) will fail to succeed in their nefarious goals before that happens.
I think that’s very true. With such a crowd of voices clamoring to explain the world to us, many have retreated into speaking in simplistic, symbolic terms and little cognitive cantonments to shut out ideas that make us feel “unsafe”. We are probably a dumber people for it.
But is that better than the “good old days” where a relatively small elite curated the news for us through a few broadcast outlets? That seems to be what the wannabe regulators seem to be aiming for.
Interesting thoughts along those lines:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/opinion/elon-musk-twitter.html
ToomuchStuff
4-28-22, 12:41am
But is that better than the “good old days” where a relatively small elite curated the news for us through a few broadcast outlets? That seems to be what the wannabe regulators seem to be aiming for.
I think there is a lot of reverence for the old days of Walter Cronkite when the thought was News reporters had a responsibility for public good and reporting, verses telling people what to think.
I am not sure it was actually any better though. Do we still have censors for TV like we did back then? I don't believe we do, I mean they still threaten fines for cursing, but not all language like "being with child verses pregnant, or having a married couple in two separate beds, etc".
Interesting thoughts along those lines:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/opinion/elon-musk-twitter.html
I love Ezra Klein.
This is a great article. I love that he points out that Twitter, by definition, can't be a platform for "meaningful discourse"
"Jack Dorsey, a Twitter co-founder and former chief executive, always wanted it to be something else. Something it wasn’t, and couldn’t be. “The purpose of Twitter is to serve the public conversation,” he said in 2018. Twitter began “measuring conversational health” and trying to tweak the platform to burnish it. Sincere as the effort was, it was like those liquor ads advising moderation. You don’t get people to drink less by selling them whiskey. Similarly, if your intention was to foster healthy conversation, you’d never limit thoughts to 280 characters or add like and retweet buttons or quote-tweet features. Twitter can’t be a place to hold healthy conversation because that’s not what it’s built to do."
And I love his thoughts about gamification. Gamification is the buzzword of the 2020s... I went to a market research webinar on how to gamify methodologies. I just read about it the other day explaining the success of a 20-something podcaster who calls herself "The Financial Feminist" who gamifies her social media. Twitter's ability to gamify thought snippets is part of its huge success.
Based on what this article said, he basically trumped Trump in terms of the power he has to influence cultural and social leanings. He might even run for President next, not letting the constitutional barriers get in the way.
Gamification was the buzz word in higher ed in about 2012-3. We were urged to put it in our online curriculum, and to use it in the form of iclickers in the classroom.
You don't hear about it anymore.
catherine
4-28-22, 10:22am
Gamification was the buzz word in higher ed in about 2012-3. We were urged to put it in our online curriculum, and to use it in the form of iclickers in the classroom.
You don't hear about it anymore.
Yeah, I figured I was probably behind the curve on this. But maybe educators were the pioneers and business is now just catching up!
Heard a podcast yesterday about Obama’s recent speech on the topic. The usual masterpiece of preening hypocrisy. Our democracy will “wither and die” unless we “take a stand” against “disinformation”. This apparently means regulating various platforms to the liking of responsible sorts such as himself. Probably gets discussed a lot at Davis.
Personally, I believe every advanced culture marinates itself In various types of BS, and always has. Blame Twitter, blame Gutenberg if you like. It has always been the duty of reasonable, responsible people to weigh claims and make their own judgments. Not some class of Archons.
happystuff
4-29-22, 10:29am
It has always been the duty of reasonable, responsible people to weigh claims and make their own judgments.
Sadly, however, there appears of late to be a lack of "reasonable, responsible people" who are also willing and able to accept the duty.
Sadly, however, there appears of late to be a lack of "reasonable, responsible people" who are also willing and able to accept the duty.
That seems to have been Obama’s argument. Over the last century or so, Progressives have progressed from trusting the wisdom of the people to feeling the need to mediate their opinions by managing what they hear.
Sadly, however, there appears of late to be a lack of "reasonable, responsible people" who are also willing and able to accept the duty.
More sadly to me is the multitude of people more than willing to do it for us.
More sadly to me is the multitude of people more than willing to do it for us.
Kind of lends credence to the “elite overproduction” theory doesn’t it?
happystuff
4-29-22, 10:54am
More sadly to me is the multitude of people more than willing to do it for us.
I wouldn't have a problem with a multitude of people willing to do it IF they were truly "reasonable, responsible people". Talk about subjective criteria - :D
I wouldn't have a problem with a multitude of people willing to do it IF they were truly "reasonable, responsible people". Talk about subjective criteria - :D
I think for most of us “reasonable” is sort of like pornography: we have trouble defining it but we recognize it when we see it. I also think it’s a lot more common than you would gather from Twitter, et. al. The squeakiest wheels of the MTG or AOC caliber get a disproportionate share of the attention. You could probably make the argument that Trump’s gaudy political career was the result of the media and political elite looking to generate outrage and half the country seeing that outrage as an opportunity to use him as a middle finger to raise to the media and political elite.
But I still think that if you blow off the froth on top, there is a solid vein of common sense underneath.
happystuff
4-29-22, 11:28am
I agree, LDAHL. And I really hope you are right about there still being a solid vein of common sense out there.
That seems to have been Obama’s argument. Over the last century or so, Progressives have progressed from trusting the wisdom of the people to feeling the need to mediate their opinions by managing what they hear.
Republicans are darn good at that too. Book banning and prohibiting the teaching of the uglier parts of our history come to mind.
ToomuchStuff
4-29-22, 9:52pm
Common sense, the largest oxymoron.
But I still think that if you blow off the froth on top, there is a solid vein of common sense underneath.
Based on several decades of public services, I have come to the conclusion that the vein is quite thin, and embedded in toxic waste.
iris lilies
4-30-22, 10:11am
Republicans are darn good at that too. Book banning and prohibiting the teaching of the uglier parts of our history come to mind.
I find it interesting that California prescribes what MUST be taught as does Texas and Florida, and by emphasizing point A, point B is left out because there’s only so much room in textbooks.
But that’s OK, your way in California is the superior way. Don’t leave it up to the educators. Your legislators know best.
I find it interesting that California prescribes what MUST be taught as does Texas and Florida, ....
I find it equally interesting that having a state choose not to use certain text books results in claims of book banning. Maybe someone should look into which text books California has chosen not to use.
Republicans are darn good at that too. Book banning and prohibiting the teaching of the uglier parts of our history come to mind.
Oh sure. There is plenty of room for pots to call kettles black. You can fool some of the people all of the time by calling grievance politics history and literature, but that doesn’t make it so. At least in Virginia.
You can bloviate about stolen elections or Jim Crow 2.0. You can label a law as don’t-say-gay, and be called a groomer in your turn. But that doesn’t make either the pot or the kettle shine any brighter.
Based on several decades of public services, I have come to the conclusion that the vein is quite thin, and embedded in toxic waste.
I like to think that isn’t the case, otherwise we’d be living in Serbia or South Sudan.
But that doesn’t make either the pot or the kettle shine any brighter.
A pox on both their houses!
I find it interesting that California prescribes what MUST be taught as does Texas and Florida, and by emphasizing point A, point B is left out because there’s only so much room in textbooks.
But that’s OK, your way in California is the superior way. Don’t leave it up to the educators. Your legislators know best.
Are you proposing that states should instead be developing an ‘anti-curriculum’ of things not to be taught. Or that the state shouldn’t be involved in how it’s citizens are educated? Several states have done the former, requiring that school districts not teach a college level law theory. I’m not sure if there are any states that provide no curriculum guidelines to school districts but it seems doubtful.
iris lilies
4-30-22, 4:00pm
Are you proposing that states should instead be developing an ‘anti-curriculum’ of things not to be taught. Or that the state shouldn’t be involved in how it’s citizens are educated? Several states have done the former, requiring that school districts not teach a college level law theory. I’m not sure if there are any states that provide no curriculum guidelines to school districts but it seems doubtful.
State general guidelines are one thing, state specific content dictums are something else. These state requirements for textbooks seem to be more specific than I am comfortable with.
School districts within a state can vary quite a bit with cultural norms and cultural background, and I think freedom to respond to those cultural differences is best left up to the local school board.
For example nearly 90% of students in St. Louis schools are minority students. I would find heavy emphasis on history and culture of African-American persons to be appropriate for the school district, but far less so for Hermann Missouri schools.
State general guidelines are one thing, state specific content dictums are something else. These state requirements for textbooks seem to be more specific than I am comfortable with.
I wanted my child to grow up multilingual, and have a depth of understanding of science, math, literature, history, music, art, and physical culture that simply isn't provided for in the public school system. When I examine the textbooks used in the public schools, I am not inspired.
(Did you know they don't even teach Latin in middle school anymore?)
State general guidelines are one thing, state specific content dictums are something else. These state requirements for textbooks seem to be more specific than I am comfortable with.
I wanted my child to grow up multilingual, and have a depth of understanding of science, math, literature, history, music, art, and physical culture that simply isn't provided for in the public school system. When I examine the textbooks used in the public schools, I am not inspired.
(Did you know they don't even usually teach Latin in elementary/middle school anymore?)
early morning
4-30-22, 4:46pm
Well, the district I went to school in stopped teaching high-school Latin in 1972, when I was a sophomore (ok, so I'm old, lol). The only foreign language offered in elementary and in junior high during my time there was Spanish. None of my friends in other schools were offered Latin, and had no languages offered until high school (when it's a bit late for most people to easily learn a second language....) The curriculum my kids were offered in high school was even more watered down. Thankfully, they were able to take many high school credits for free at the local community college, where the offerings were a tad better.
iris lilies
4-30-22, 4:48pm
I wanted my child to grow up multilingual, and have a depth of understanding of science, math, literature, history, music, art, and physical culture that simply isn't provided for in the public school system. When I examine the textbooks used in the public schools, I am not inspired.
(Did you know they don't even usually teach Latin in elementary/middle school anymore?)
Just last week I lamented the fact that I never had one lick of Latin instruction in school. I feel my education is vastly inferior because of it.
My high school NEVER taught it.We were were a bunch of small town and flyover country rubes.
State general guidelines are one thing, state specific content dictums are something else. These state requirements for textbooks seem to be more specific than I am comfortable with.
I tend to agree with you as far as textbooks go. I assume that the result is not so much better textbooks but instead, textbooks from the publisher that can afford to give the biggest legal bribes to the most politicians.
ToomuchStuff
4-30-22, 5:09pm
Just last week I lamented the fact that I never had one lick of Latin instruction in school. I feel my education is vastly inferior because of it.
My high school NEVER taught it.We were were a bunch of small town and flyover country rubes.
I don't remember them teaching Latin as a language, however a bit of it was covered in both Science class and in classes covering things like contracts, etc. (explaining how latin is still used in both legal and medical fields)
I do know looking at my grandparents generations, books, how much education has changed. Heck, from the time my older sibling attended school, things like higher math was out of the "middle schools", (where they had Junior high schools), let alone all the classical reading that my grandparents had done (never did we read the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, or lots of those type of things).
In a big way, at least to me, we were taught facts and figures, to tests, where our grandparents were taught how to think.
My high school NEVER taught it.We were were a bunch of small town and flyover country rubes.
We had it in middle school, along with French and Spanish, when I lived in a very small town in the middle-of-nowhere-Ohio. I even got several years of French immersion classes there, where about 1/2 our day was in French.
Now, to be fair, my partner teaches elementary school over in the mainland, in a fairly-economically-depressed community, and her *entire* elementary school is dual-language - the kids get 1/2 the day in English, then the teachers swap, and they get the other half of the day in Spanish. It's a pretty cool program, but it is an outlier for the region I think. Friday several of their students qualified for the National Spanish Spelling Bee in Texas.
https://i.imgur.com/ADifqgk.jpg
My island's school system, which is top-ranked in the state/country, often has had NO language instruction available some years.
iris lilies
4-30-22, 5:18pm
I tend to agree with you as far as textbooks go. I assume that the result is not so much better textbooks but instead, textbooks from the publisher that can afford to give the biggest legal bribes to the most politicians.
textbook publishers deliberately write a California edition, a Texas edition, etc.
MSChris mentioned that here, and then this week I heard the NYT Education reporter on NPR’s Fresh AiRe talking about the differences in the California edition versus the Texas edition of these textbooks.
Four years of high school Latin taught by a strict but wonderfully patient Benedictine nun.
Gratias ago tibi Soror Helena.
Four years of high school Latin taught by a strict but wonderfully patient Benedictine nun.
Gratias ago tibi Sorror Helena.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/b8/93/14b8931fccf64bb5a5600156e0f095c3.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/b8/93/14b8931fccf64bb5a5600156e0f095c3.jpg
She was on a mission from God.
iris lilies
4-30-22, 5:23pm
We had it in middle school, along with French and Spanish, when I lived in a very small town in the middle-of-nowhere-Ohio. I even got several years of French immersion classes there, where about 1/2 our day was in French.
Now, to be fair, my partner teaches elementary school over in the mainland, in a fairly-economically-depressed community, and her *entire* elementary school is dual-language - the kids get 1/2 the day in English, then the teachers swap, and they get the other half of the day in Spanish. It's a pretty cool program, but it is an outlier for the region I think. Friday several of their students qualified for the National Spanish Spelling Bee in Texas.
https://i.imgur.com/ADifqgk.jpg
My island's school system, which is top-ranked in the state/country, often has had NO language instruction available some years.
Oh we had French and Spanish in junior high, but nothing remotely like Latin. I suspect without really knowing that it was because it was a “NEW” Consolidated school district that had pushed together four small towns, and they considered themselves very modern and were not going to teach a dead language. Besides, their goal was to build a swimming pool! Because they were all about sports.
It was a dumb school, I thought it was dumb then and I think it’s dumb now.
I took two years of Latin in high school, and 4 years of French--I do believe that if schools are going to teach languages, the earlier the better. High school is too late. I loved learning languages but I think the part of my neural network that facilitates language learning had already dried up quite a bit.
happystuff
4-30-22, 7:24pm
Spanish, French, German and Russian were offered at my high school back in the 70's (if not earlier and later). Can't remember if there were any other languages offered back then. At the middle school I work at there is only Spanish and it's considered a "special", not a regular year-long class.
iris lilies
5-1-22, 9:25am
Oh sure. There is plenty of room for pots to call kettles black. You can fool some of the people all of the time by calling grievance politics history and literature, but that doesn’t make it so. At least in Virginia.
You can bloviate about stolen elections or Jim Crow 2.0. You can label a law as don’t-say-gay, and be called a groomer in your turn. But that doesn’t make either the pot or the kettle shine any brighter.
Another nicely worded summary from LDahl!
Another nicely worded summary from LDahl!
Indeed. In two brief paragraphs ldahl has eloquently explained why the Republican Party won’t have meaningful minority support for the foreseeable future.
Indeed. In two brief paragraphs ldahl has eloquently explained why the Republican Party won’t have meaningful minority support for the foreseeable future.
The polls would seem to indicate increasing support for the GOP among minorities. It could be that the cultural/social priorities of affluent white people are not resonating with the people they claim to be helping as much as they thought.
iris lilies
5-1-22, 3:00pm
The polls would seem to indicate increasing support for the GOP among minorities. It could be that the cultural/social priorities of affluent white people are not resonating with the people they claim to be helping as much as they thought.
Surely you cannot mean Joe Biden’s plan to compensate college graduates by totally forgiving the college loans they took out to get their cushy white-collar jobs? As jeppy calls them, the “laptop crowd” is becoming increasingly out of touch.
I cannot imagine why minimum wage folks or truck drivers or tradesmen of any color would be supporting that debacle.
"Grievance politics" pretty much sums up the Republican approach to governance--from their baseless "stolen election" nonsense to De Santis' petulant attacks on Disney for not falling in line with his deranged manifestos. In fact, they have nothing but grievances--no plans, no policies, no direction. Luckily (as someone, somewhere once said), there's a sucker born every minute, and the believers in hydroxychloroquine and adrenochrome and pizza basement pedophile rings will dutifully vote R 'til the end of time and label themselves patriots for doing so.
iris lilies
5-1-22, 3:07pm
"Grievance politics" pretty much sums up the Republican approach to governance--from their baseless "stolen election" nonsense to De Santis' petulant attacks on Disney for not falling in line with his deranged manifestos. In fact, they have nothing but grievances--no plans, no policies, no direction. Luckily (as someone, somewhere once said), there's a sucker born every minute, and the believers in hydroxychloroquine and adrenochrome and pizza basement pedophile rings will dutifully vote R 'til the end of time and label themselves patriots for doing so.
Di Santos’ action against Disney is pretty stupid, I agree, but overall I don’t think he’s governing all that badly. He may be your next President so settle in for a good ride.
Ldahl can tell I listened to Charles Cook this week. Sadly, I have no original thought of my own. I’m sure this is why JP would consider me so gullible and why I often Pull the Republican lever.
Di Santos’ action against Disney is pretty stupid, I agree, but overall I don’t think he’s governing all that badly. He may be your next President so settle in for a good ride.
Ldahl can tell I listened to Charles Cook this week. Sadly, I have no original thought of my own. I’m sure this is why JP would consider me so gullible and why I often Pull the Republican lever.
I see us marching like zombies into an authoritarian future with the likes of De Santis "leading" us--which makes me glad I have a limited time left on earth. I have the greatest admiration for President Zelenskyy and his stalwart soldiers, but I don't have the juice for a protracted fight against the evil I see on the horizon.
Disanto’s action against Disney is pretty stupid, I agree, but overall I don’t think he’s governing all that badly. He may be your next President so settle in for a good ride.
I also thought the special district thing was a bridge too far. My first thought was for the poor bastards in the overlying counties who would suddenly need to start covering all that new debt and infrastructure.
Still, De Santis seems to be doing well overall among Florida voters, and I like the cut of his job. I do think that real life stuff like inflation, border bedlam and crime will matter more than all the culture war froth that probably matters to a small minority of the public.
Di Santos’ action against Disney is pretty stupid, I agree, but overall I don’t think he’s governing all that badly. He may be your next President so settle in for a good ride.
Ldahl can tell I listened to Charles Cook this week. Sadly, I have no original thought of my own. I’m sure this is why JP would consider me so gullible and why I often Pull the Republican lever.
He did tear into it, didn’t he? How it fails on a financial, legal, policy and moral basis. Pretending its an equity issue requires a profound level of Chutzpah.
The polls would seem to indicate increasing support for the GOP among minorities. It could be that the cultural/social priorities of affluent white people are not resonating with the people they claim to be helping as much as they thought.
Well, when you have nowhere to go but up any increase will seem substantial. But my point still holds. If you want people to like you you need to start by showing them that you respect them. Telling them to shut up with their stories about their lived experiences is pretty much the opposite of saying that you respect someone.
Well, when you have nowhere to go but up any increase will seem substantial. But my point still holds. If you want people to like you you need to start by showing them that you respect them. Telling them to shut up with their stories about their lived experiences is pretty much the opposite of saying that you respect someone.
I think there is a difference between not imposing somebody’s “stories about their lived experiences” on the first grade curriculum and telling them to shut up. I guess we’ll see how the voters view it.
It's easy to discount the "culture wars" when you're a member in good standing of the ruling class--an aging CIS white male with a comfortable net worth who doesn't have to worry about being stopped by hostile police officers or fear that your life will be derailed by an unwanted pregnancy, or your marriage threatened by legislators with a "Christian" agenda who'd love to live in their own theocracy. And forget it if you're trying to immigrate or pursue an asylum claim, or you're one of the DACA kids in perpetual limbo. Republican "values" like tax reduction and absolute political power make up your "culture." I don't see that ending any time soon.
Sure, I guess if one doesn't really care about the first amendment DeSantis is doing a great job. Personally it's kind of terrifying that some people simply write off as "pretty stupid" what is actually a bone chilling slam on the first amendment. But I guess some people are fine with a governor and legislature tossing it into the dustbin as long as it's for a reason one agrees with.
Personally it's kind of terrifying that some people simply write off as "pretty stupid" what is actually a bone chilling slam on the first amendment.
It's worse than that. When you selectively mobilize the power of the state to try to crush those who disagree with you and dare to speak out, well....
"A government of laws, not men"... that's gone.
Sure, I guess if one doesn't really care about the first amendment DeSantis is doing a great job. Personally it's kind of terrifying that some people simply write off as "pretty stupid" what is actually a bone chilling slam on the first amendment. But I guess some people are fine with a governor and legislature tossing it into the dustbin as long as it's for a reason one agrees with.
I'm not sure anything Florida is doing regarding Disney prevents them from seeking redress from the government, from saying whatever they want to say or practice whatever religion they might find most helpful to their employees, customers or corporate image. It does seem to take away their ability to self-govern, which I've been led to believe is something Democrats have traditionally been against. Am I missing something?
I'm not sure anything Florida is doing regarding Disney prevents them from seeking redress from the government, from saying whatever they want to say or practice whatever religion they might find most helpful to their employees, customers or corporate image. It does seem to take away their ability to self-govern, which I've been led to believe is something Democrats have traditionally been against. Am I missing something?
I think Disney will prevail, but what struck me is DeSantis' naked, Trumpesque vindictiveness. Companies--all citizens--have every right to protest or disagree with no fear of retribution. Unless they're living in an autocracy, of course.
I think Disney will prevail, but what struck me is DeSantis' naked, Trumpesque vindictiveness. Companies--all citizens--have every right to protest or disagree with no fear of retribution. Unless they're living in an autocracy, of course.
About 160 years ago several states attempted to disagree and protest without fear of retribution, it didn't go well for them. This seems to me to be an armed invasion and 500,000 or so lost lives short of that.
About 160 years ago several states attempted to disagree and protest without fear of retribution, it didn't go well for them. This seems to me to be an armed invasion and 500,000 or so lost lives short of that.
So we should say "nothing to see here, move along" since at least the state didn't send a militia to Disneyland to point guns at Mickey Mouse's head?
Are you talking about "the lost cause?" :D
I'm talking about Disney supporting its employees--all of them--and opposing the "Don't say gay" bill recently signed by the governor. Has Disney threatened to secede? That's news to me.
So we should say "nothing to see here, move along" since at least the state didn't send a militia to Disneyland to point guns at Mickey Mouse's head?
No, I'm suggesting that you appear to be in favor of much larger and much more drastic government action when it suits you, not to mention the fact that you now seem to be in favor of corporations acting as their own government, but again only when it suits you. It seems strange to me.
Are you talking about "the lost cause?" :D
I'm talking about Disney supporting its employees--all of them--and opposing the "Don't say gay" bill recently signed by the governor. Has Disney threatened to secede? That's news to me.
I was too, but perhaps a bit too obliquely. :|( Florida is attempting to take away Disney's ability to act as its own government in the state. Again I'm a bit confused how a good Democrat could protest that. I would agree that the timing is bad, but it really seems to be something you might celebrate rather than scorn.
I'm also confused how virtually all media and most everyday Democrats insist on calling the Parental Rights In Education Act the "Don't Say Gay" bill, when it doesn't actually do or say that. It seems like sophistry to me.
No, I'm suggesting that you appear to be in favor of much larger and much more drastic government action when it suits you, not to mention the fact that you now seem to be in favor of corporations acting as their own government, but again only when it suits you. It seems strange to me.
No. I’m in favor of governors and their legislatures not using their power of the state to retaliate against a corporation that made a statement that they disagreed with. If you can’t see that then you’re too far gone to have a rational conversation with. And if reasonable people like iris and ldahl join in your defense then I’ll know that the entire Republican Party is beyond hope.
I'm not arguing about Disney's special dispensation per se, but DeSantis' immediate punitive response to their protests of his unnecessary new law. Vindictive retaliation is very, very Trumpian. (and very, very dictatorial--like Putin making a law to criminalize protests). We're well down the slippery slope, IMO.
iris lilies
5-1-22, 10:59pm
No. I’m in favor of governors and their legislatures not using their power of the state to retaliate against a corporation that made a statement that they disagreed with. If you can’t see that then you’re too far gone to have a rational conversation with. And if reasonable people like iris and ldahl join in your defense then I’ll know that the entire Republican Party is beyond hope.
Oh for Heaven’s sake JP you’ve already decided the entire Republican Party is “beyond hope” so why bother talking to you.
Oh for Heaven’s sake JP you’ve already decided the entire Republican Party is “beyond hope” so why bother talking to you.
Discount the messenger and ignore the message.
I get it. I’m annoying. But if you can’t see what’s wrong with what that ugly clown in Florida did to Disney then yeah, the Republican Party is far more gone than I thought.
I have a lot of respect for the "never-Trumpers," (like Michael Steele, Nicole Wallace, Steve Schmidt, Rick Wilson...) but I'm not sure they're still Republicans.
(Plus a tiny crush on Michael Steele.)
... then I’ll know that the entire Republican Party is beyond hope.
As a fairly-recent Republican, and delegate, I'd concur with that.
Doesn't mean I like the Democratic Party either though :-)
iris lilies
5-2-22, 4:21am
Discount the messenger and ignore the message.
I get it. I’m annoying. But if you can’t see what’s wrong with what that ugly clown in Florida did to Disney then yeah, the Republican Party is far more gone than I thought.
please show me where I said De Santos’ move against Disney was a good one.
I don't feel sorry for Disney. It reminds me of when Pat Buchanan came to Concord, MA and was picketed. He said, "We have the revolt of the overprivileged."
Same idea with college educated people asking those who earn less than them to pay for their education.
please show me where I said De Santos’ move against Disney was a good one.
Sorry I misunderstood. It wasn’t clear to me that all you were doing was expressing annoyance that I’d called you a reasonable conservative.
No. I’m in favor of governors and their legislatures not using their power of the state to retaliate against a corporation that made a statement that they disagreed with. If you can’t see that then you’re too far gone to have a rational conversation with. And if reasonable people like iris and ldahl join in your defense then I’ll know that the entire Republican Party is beyond hope.
I wasn't aware that I needed a defense as I've not expressed an opinion on the subject other than to suggest the timing may be bad. I'm more interested in the way the people react to events such as this based upon the political party of the initiating offender. It's fascinating!
I wasn't aware that I needed a defense as I've not expressed an opinion on the subject other than to suggest the timing may be bad. I'm more interested in the way the people react to events such as this based upon the political party of the initiating offender. It's fascinating!
Since you claim you haven’t expressed an opinion beyond timing I’d be curious what your opinion is? Or s that something you’d rather not share with us?
Since you claim you haven’t expressed an opinion beyond timing I’d be curious what your opinion is? Or s that something you’d rather not share with us?
No, I don't mind sharing my opinion with you since you've asked, although it may be a little long winded. In my opinion the Parental Rights In Education bill has been grossly misrepresented in virtually all media and as a result is not understood by most people, although I think it probably has majority support among those who do. I also think that the Disney corporation made a conscious choice to further misrepresent the legislation for reasons known only to those few board members who approved the action. Personally, I think it was a dumb move on their part.
Now to Florida's response. Some states have historically given certain business entities special rights and privileges in order to influence their operations, these are typically mostly amusement parks and private universities, although I believe in the case of private universities there are generally requirements that an independent outside board of governors oversee their operations while amusement parks are typically immune from that type of oversight. The pending Florida legislative ruling has taken away that special status from all amusement parks in the state, putting them in line with other states that have never allowed that sort of thing in the first place. I don't think anyone could challenge the legislature's right to take this action and would probably applaud the act if not for the complication of Disney's recent and very vocal statements against the parental rights bill.
So, in my opinion Disney is free to take a stand on any position they feel may benefit their business and Florida is free to treat all business within their jurisdiction without undue favor, although the optics of Florida's timing is problematic.
iris lilies
5-3-22, 9:17am
No, I don't mind sharing my opinion with you since you've asked, although it may be a little long winded. In my opinion the Parental Rights In Education bill has been grossly misrepresented in virtually all media and as a result is not understood by most people, although I think it probably has majority support among those who do. I also think that the Disney corporation made a conscious choice to further misrepresent the legislation for reasons known only to those few board members who approved the action. Personally, I think it was a dumb move on their part.
Now to Florida's response. Some states have historically given certain business entities special rights and privileges in order to influence their operations, these are typically mostly amusement parks and private universities, although I believe in the case of private universities there are generally requirements that an independent outside board of governors oversee their operations while amusement parks are typically immune from that type of oversight. The pending Florida legislative ruling has taken away that special status from all amusement parks in the state, putting them in line with other states that have never allowed that sort of thing in the first place. I don't think anyone could challenge the legislature's right to take this action and would probably applaud the act if not for the complication of Disney's recent and very vocal statements against the parental rights bill.
So, in my opinion Disney is free to take a stand on any position they feel may benefit their business and Florida is free to treat all business within their jurisdiction without undue favor, although the optics of Florida's timing is problematic.
sure, All of that is true, but do you think it was a good idea for DeSantos to bitchslap Disney for their stupid corporate decision (and it WAS stupid.) His action seems churlish and not in the best interest of Florida citizens to me.
I agree with Alan on pretty much every count. I suspect if Di Santis was not looking like a contender at the national level we wouldn’t be seeing such a frenzied effort to paint him as a cartoon villain.
The practical result may be a shot in the fiscal foot for state and local government, as well as badly timed. In fact, the kind of bad move Elizabeth Warren might make if she had any real power. But I don’t see it as an attack on “our democracy” in any substantial way.
It's interesting to me that we haven't seen anything in the press about all the other florida amusement parks that are going to be losing their special district status because of this law.
It's interesting to me that we haven't seen anything in the press about all the other florida amusement parks that are going to be losing their special district status because of this law.
Yes, that's curious isn't it? Forbes did mention it as a sort of an aside in one of their articles. Florida Punishes Walt Disney World As DeSantis Signs Bill Dissolving Special District Into Law (forbes.com) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/04/22/florida-punishes-walt-disney-world-as-desantis-signs-bill-dissolving-special-district-into-law/?sh=20d4ad356307)
sure, All of that is true, but do you think it was a good idea for DeSantos to bitchslap Disney for their stupid corporate decision (and it WAS stupid.) His action seems churlish and not in the best interest of Florida citizens to me.
His response is similar to Vladimir Putin's stock response to business owners who dare to challenge him--he just nationalizes their business and bankrupts them--leaving them thankful, I guess, that they didn't rate the polonium cocktail. Personally, I prefer politicians who don't govern by "getting even."
sure, All of that is true, but do you think it was a good idea for DeSantos to bitchslap Disney for their stupid corporate decision (and it WAS stupid.) His action seems churlish and not in the best interest of Florida citizens to me.
No, I don't think it was a good idea to take that action as quickly as they did. I'd like to think that our state and federal legislatures will automatically take the high road and not involve themselves with petty disputes best left in the realm of transitory public opinion, but I think that ship sailed some time ago.
Apparently musk doesn’t think free speech is worth the price he offered anymore. And as an aside he now claims to have a weird wang that no one could forget seeing. Interesting times we live in.
Apparently musk doesn’t think free speech is worth the price he offered anymore. And as an aside he now claims to have a weird wang that no one could forget seeing. Interesting times we live in.
I'm not sure why he thinks it rated more than a passing backward glance as his target fled. Ewww.
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