View Full Version : Another school shooting of innocent children
flowerseverywhere
5-24-22, 8:53pm
I cannot even bear to think of it. Why oh why do our legislators not cherish the lives of innocent children and do everything they can to protect them.
Why oh why do our legislators not cherish the lives of innocent children and do everything they can to protect them.
Because some of them cherish the second amendment more than they cherish children. If only they cherished children as much as they do fetuses then maybe something would be done. All it would take is a case or two before the radical hacks on the supreme court who don't believe in stare decisis and things would change. But that isn't likely to happen in any of our lifetimes.
Somehow "a well-regulated militia" is not what comes to mind when I consider our never-ending stream of gun violence. No other developed country has to put up with this shit.
No other developed country has to put up with this shit.
That’s what makes us ‘special’.
Because some of them cherish the second amendment more than they cherish children.
Perhaps the problem is more nuanced than that?
Perhaps the problem is more nuanced than that?
Perhaps. I’ll let the folks who appear to cherish the second amendment more than children explain what solutions they propose. In the past they haven’t proposed much beyond tots and pears but perhaps this time will be different?
Perhaps. I’ll let the folks who appear to cherish the second amendment more than children explain what solutions they propose. In the past they haven’t proposed much beyond tots and pears but perhaps this time will be different?
I believe if you look at the last 20+ years of discussion on this topic on this forum you might find some suggestions involving:
- prenatal healthcare and nutrition
- early childhood education
- access to heathcare
- access to mental health services
- economic justice
- and so on...
I also think your assumption that people who advocate looking deeper "cherish the second amendment more than children " is mistaken, and limits discourse.
I would add universal background checks, licensing and testing, military assault-style weapons ban, and a complete overhaul of dark money and campaign finance. Also, a domestic terrorism unit with teeth.
Teacher Terry
5-25-22, 1:30am
I find it heartbreaking. Unfortunately this problem won’t be solved in my lifetime. There’s no way the founding fathers could have anticipated the type of guns we would have in the future.
I find it heartbreaking. Unfortunately this problem won’t be solved in my lifetime. There’s no way the founding fathers could have anticipated the type of guns we would have in the future.
I suspect you are wrong. Might want to read the Heller decision.
When the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written, it was commonly-accepted practice for wealthy individuals to own and operate armed warships, the tactical weaponry of the day, capable of reducing port cities to rubble. This was in fact the backbone of the young United States' naval strategy for ages, and a reason we didn't sign the Treaty of Paris in 1856.
ApatheticNoMore
5-25-22, 4:15am
- prenatal healthcare and nutrition
- early childhood education
- access to heathcare
- access to mental health services
- economic justice
- and so on...
I suspect people think that gun control is more likely than that though (maybe depending on what is meant by gun control - more restrictions, total ban etc. - the last is pretty unlikely too).
But social reform is not likely in a political system (and to a lesser degree culture, but even though the culture is somewhat whacky I'm still going to primarily blame the political system, because it thwarts even the best attempts at reform) as broken as the u.s..
Somehow "a well-regulated militia" is not what comes to mind when I consider our never-ending stream of gun violence. No other developed country has to put up with this shit.
Well there are failed states where militias including child soldiers roam the streets armed and engaging in random acts of violence.
In this link you can scroll down to the graph and click on it to sort with failed states at the top:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/failed-states
Top 5 are:
Yemen
Somalia
South Sudan
Syria
DR Congo
ETA And in developed countries the New Zealand shooter inspired the Buffalo shooter. Also there were numerous ISIS shootings in Europe.
You can't buy a drink until you're 21 but you can buy a gun at 18. A lot of these shooters are young. With time would they have matured and not acted out their rage this way? Hard to know but maybe raising the age to purchase would help.
- prenatal healthcare and nutrition
- early childhood education
- access to heathcare
- access to mental health services
- economic justice
- and so on...
.
What Republican politician has ever included even one of these things in their policy platform in the last 30 years? And if the answer is zero, why not?
My guesswork predictions are that the Dems will call for gun control and the GOP will say it's a mental health problem. As in the past, very little will actually change. I have come around to be in the mental health school of thought, but it's a complex problem. There are a lot of angry people in the country anymore that see violence as the answer. I'm not sure how to correct things.
iris lilies
5-25-22, 8:35am
… I'm not sure how to correct things.
And neither does anyone else.
ToomuchStuff
5-25-22, 9:46am
You can't buy a drink until you're 21 but you can buy a gun at 18. A lot of these shooters are young. With time would they have matured and not acted out their rage this way? Hard to know but maybe raising the age to purchase would help.
And there is actually a case, headed to the supreme court, on this issue. You can buy a rifle at 18, but not a handgun. That requires you to be 21 to buy it commercially. At what age do you get your constitutional rights? (should one not vote or be able to join the army until 21)
ToomuchStuff
5-25-22, 10:23am
I cannot even bear to think of it. Why oh why do our legislators not cherish the lives of innocent children and do everything they can to protect them.
Why do you think it is the legislators fault? Look in the mirror.
We know this stuff is gonna happen. Protecting the kids doesn't require meddling with the Constitution. Only money. And yet...
Who votes for the tax money to hire school security, to secure our kids? Or pay the teachers for active shooter training, etc.
And then when you decide to get rid of legal guns, what will be your argument when an illegal gun is used? Or someone pulls a Andrew Kehoe, or Tim McVeigh?
happystuff
5-25-22, 10:29am
The same old discussions/arguments after these events with nothing eventually being done. I keep wondering if THIS one will be the one to provoke action - any action - to try to stop these killings.
Sympathy, prayers and condolences to everyone, especially those who have lost their child(ren) - such a horrible thing to end up having to live with.
I am truly saddened by the culture we have wrought. It is a sick, multi-layered issue.
" I keep wondering if THIS one will be the one to provoke action - any action - to try to stop these killings."
But why is this the answer to what is obviously a problem of mental illness and an incredibly sick culture? There are societies where you cannot legally obtain guns and people still go in and murder people with guns. It's not the proximity to guns that makes someone murderous.
happystuff
5-25-22, 10:39am
" I keep wondering if THIS one will be the one to provoke action - any action - to try to stop these killings."
But why is this the answer to what is obviously a problem of mental illness and an incredibly sick culture? There are societies where you cannot legally obtain guns and people still go in and murder people with guns. It's not the proximity to guns that makes someone murderous.
I don't understand your statement. I was referring to this event as possibly being the event ("THIS one") to actually "provoke action to try to stop these killings". That "action" could be anything, but it is clear SOMETHING needs to be done. Or you disagree that anything should be done and things should continue as they are now?
Again, I don't understand your response with regards to the portion of mine you quoted.
catherine
5-25-22, 10:51am
I am truly saddened by the culture we have wrought. It is a sick, multi-layered issue.
That's my thinking as well. There is no one solution. Is it guns? Lack of gun control? Bad parenting? Cultural disenfranchisement? Community disenfranchisement? Social media? Anger and hate directed at ... other races/the government/parents/self/the world?
I don't know what is in the soup our culture has simmered to create the conditions for so many tragic mass murders over the past few years.
I don't understand your statement. I was referring to this event as possibly being the event ("THIS one") to actually "provoke action to try to stop these killings". That "action" could be anything, but it is clear SOMETHING needs to be done. Or you disagree that anything should be done and things should continue as they are now?
Again, I don't understand your response with regards to the portion of mine you quoted.
I explained it as well as I could here, ". It's not the proximity to guns that makes someone murderous."
That's my thinking as well. There is no one solution. Is it guns? Lack of gun control? Bad parenting? Cultural disenfranchisement? Community disenfranchisement? Social media? Anger and hate directed at ... other races/the government/parents/self/the world?
I don't know what is in the soup our culture has simmered to create the conditions for so many tragic mass murders over the past few years.
Yes, it is this horrible mixture that our culture has become, that life must look so threatening to some, and they are sick, and react with killing. I do not understand it.
happystuff
5-25-22, 11:24am
I explained it as well as I could here, ". It's not the proximity to guns that makes someone murderous."
Okay, thanks for explaining. I misunderstood because I didn't mention "guns" in my post at all, so didn't understand how it related to what you quoted from my post.
Japan suffered a shocking knife attack in 2019 at a bus stop at a Catholic school. Seventeen schoolgirls (you can Google the connection between mass violence and misogyny) and two adults. There were two deaths. Imagine the carnage if the attacker had an AR-15. I'm so tired of people acting like guns are irrelevant here.
And then you have this from a hundred years ago in Michigan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
The murderous desire to destroy innocent children--it has certainly been around a long time. Personally, I have come to think that people are possessed by demons. I can't find any other explanation.
Japan suffered a shocking knife attack in 2019 at a bus stop at a Catholic school. Seventeen schoolgirls (you can Google the connection between mass violence and misogyny) and two adults. There were two deaths. Imagine the carnage if the attacker had an AR-15. I'm so tired of people acting like guns are irrelevant here.
I certainly don't think they're irrelevant. I think easy access to certain firearms is ridiculous. But it is a complex issue, given our culture. We came to this country guns a'blazin. The whole "right to bear arms" is part of our national DNA, so it's a hard issue to fight.
Teacher Terry
5-25-22, 1:58pm
I guess our schools will need to become armed fortresses with security on duty and no one allowed in or out without going through metal detectors. It’s hard enough to keep good teachers and whose going to want to do it now. Interesting that many European countries don’t seem to have this problem.
I can think of two different problems going on here--the person coming in from the outside and killing students and teachers, and the student coming in from the inside and killing teachers and classmates. With the second problem, I think having smaller schools might help. It would not help with the first problem.
It may be a complex problem, but no one can deny that it's a problem not shared by the rest of the civilized world.
Guns, greed, a selfish, violent culture, toxic--often deranged--politics, and a growing banana republic-style gap between rich and poor, make life here in DogEatDogistan increasingly hard to defend.
There is yet another side-effect of all this violence. It contributes greatly to a sense of hopelessness within our society and thus we remain stuck in a never-ending loop of despair and inaction.
There is yet another side-effect of all this violence. It contributes greatly to a sense of hopelessness within our society and thus we remain stuck in a never-ending loop of despair and inaction.
That's a good point; hopelessness breeds inertia.
If it wasn't such a sobering issue I might have chuckled. Gov. Abbott was giving a news update and went on about the known issue of mental health within the community. He didn't say what the community was any different than other communities. In my mind he was obviously laying the ground work argument for the coming gun control advocates. Then Beto O'Rourke interrupts and loudly proclaims issues about control and the NRA convention in Texas. Abbott then has O'Rourke escorted out saying he was trying to politicize things, like as if he wasn't.
I place some blame on dysfunctional politics and the control of power over public safety.
Couldn't some of the government's Medicaid expansion money--if accepted--help with mental health issues? Rhetorical question.
They've declined to accept, so far.
frugal-one
5-25-22, 5:18pm
" I keep wondering if THIS one will be the one to provoke action - any action - to try to stop these killings."
But why is this the answer to what is obviously a problem of mental illness and an incredibly sick culture? There are societies where you cannot legally obtain guns and people still go in and murder people with guns. It's not the proximity to guns that makes someone murderous.
But they are more likely to act because guns are convenient. And, the availability of firearms to everyone that have multiple rounds. The cops aren't even armed to that degree. I remember when gun laws passed. My comment is now we will have the wild, wild west. Here we are.
Just saw this poem. A bit cynical and maybe not altogether true, but it links to my earlier post.
America is a Gun
England is a cup of tea.
France, a wheel of ripened brie.
Greece, a short, squat olive tree.
America is a gun.
Brazil is football on the sand.
Argentina, Maradona’s hand.
Germany, an oompah band.
America is a gun.
Holland is a wooden shoe.
Hungary, a goulash stew.
Australia, a kangaroo.
America is a gun.
Japan is a thermal spring.
Scotland is a highland fling.
Oh, better to be anything
than America as a gun.
Brian Bilston
Popular culture has glorified violence for a very long time. Guns are the final solution for these sick souls to lash out against dehumanization of late-stage capitalism.
Some causes are coming out. The gunman had been bullied for his lisp and appearance. He dropped out of school and worked briefly at a fast food restaurant. He was unhappy his class was graduating this spring and he was not.
In so many of these cases bullying is a factor. I don't get why he didn't go after the bullies though instead of innocent little kids.
Chicken lady
5-26-22, 7:14am
I love a boy who is in prison. His girlfriend is dead. Romeo and Juliet. His mother was getting him all the mental health care she had access to. He turned 18. He bought a gun. The girlfriend shot herself with it. Instead of shooting himself as agreed, he panicked and called 911. She was 17.
What could have stopped this? Better mental health care? Waiting periods? Higher age limits on gun purchases? Training and licensing requirements for gun purchases? Full societal acceptance and support for trans people? The definition of denying your trans child’s identity as abuse instead of the reverse? Want to blame the parents? Which parents?
what did you do today to make the world a better place?
The gunman shot for 40 minutes. Police waited over 30 minutes before going into the school.
Part of the answer has to be better police who are not cowards. Hire based on competence not connections.
Same thing happened at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High.
ToomuchStuff
5-26-22, 9:45am
I guess our schools will need to become armed fortresses with security on duty and no one allowed in or out without going through metal detectors. It’s hard enough to keep good teachers and whose going to want to do it now. Interesting that many European countries don’t seem to have this problem.
You might want to google that. European countries have had less, but haven't been unaffected.
Couldn't some of the government's Medicaid expansion money--if accepted--help with mental health issues? Rhetorical question.
They've declined to accept, so far.
Our state was denying the expansion money, because it would only be provided for 3 years, and then the state would have to fully fund. The numbers they were talking about was half the state budget, before any increases, yearly.
The gunman shot for 40 minutes. Police waited over 30 minutes before going into the school.
Part of the answer has to be better police who are not cowards. Hire based on competence not connections.
Same thing happened at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High.
You might want to check your supreme court precedents, cops have no duty to protect.
If there's no duty to protect the movement to defund the police makes sense.
The gunman shot for 40 minutes. Police waited over 30 minutes before going into the school.
I was wondering why it took so long but suspect there was a reason other than cowardness. I've not seen it in the news and don't know if I can watch much more of the details.
The responding police department did not, from news accounts, follow the current nationwide protocols for responding to active shooters.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332322545_The_Evolution_of_Active_Shooter_Response _Training_Protocols_Since_Columbine_Lessons_From_t he_Advanced_Law_Enforcement_Rapid_Response_Trainin g_Center
Some causes are coming out. The gunman had been bullied for his lisp and appearance. He dropped out of school and worked briefly at a fast food restaurant. He was unhappy his class was graduating this spring and he was not.
In so many of these cases bullying is a factor. I don't get why he didn't go after the bullies though instead of innocent little kids.
I would think mowing down one's bullies would be a common fantasy among even better-adjusted victims, so that's always a mystery to me.
In the meantime, could we at least have auto-locking schoolroom doors and bulletproof glass?
iris lilies
5-26-22, 10:44am
In the meantime, could we at least have auto-locking schoolroom doors and bulletproof glass?
Oh yes a technical solution even though it’s not very technical but more mechanical. While I know you’re not proposing this as THE ANSWER to school shootings, it’s a pretty simplistic concept so sure, try it out. take this solution to your local school board and work to make it happen.
I’m not in favor of some sort of federal mandate that requires one size fitting all.
Or sitting around at home typing on the Internet – I guess that’s just as good?
This reminds me of the hundreds of hours of neighborhood meetings I have sat in listening to the boys, and usually it is boys, talk about technical fixes to crime. Cameras are their main focus but there’s other stuff having to do with gadgets and widgets. Yet here we sit today in year 2022 with one functioning camera pointed at an intersection in our neighborhood where two criminal things have happened yet the camera couldn’t shed light on it. But at every damn board meeting there is discussion about the camera, what it is doing, how we maintain it, funding more cameras, etc. etc.
Yes I am off topic. And I’m glad to be leaving this neighborhood discussion about cameras. I’ve watched three generations of them being installed, fumble, and die, not doing much of anything except keeping the boys focused and entertained.
Chicken lady
5-26-22, 11:10am
I made a cake for my class.
with a snowman on it.
Inside joke.
because love is a verb.
ToomuchStuff
5-26-22, 11:05pm
In the meantime, could we at least have auto-locking schoolroom doors and bulletproof glass?
Oh yes a technical solution even though it’s not very technical but more mechanical. While I know you’re not proposing this as THE ANSWER to school shootings, it’s a pretty simplistic concept so sure, try it out. take this solution to your local school board and work to make it happen.
I’m not in favor of some sort of federal mandate that requires one size fitting all.
The glass could probably be done, but it is a local thing and funding locally, where federally mandated things, tend to have to be federally funded.
Auto locking doors, probably not. Fire codes tend to preclude that in most locals that I am aware of, and then the first time someone makes it into the building, before the locks are activated, and then kids can't escape, cause a whole new set of lawsuits.
My old house had been in two different school districts, since I have owned it. The Kansas City district was talked about in the news today. I didn't get to listen to much of it, due to a medical emergency with my boss this morning. The Mayor of KC, talked about how the KCSD, has one point entry, metal detectors and yet a couple weeks ago, a kid murdered another kid by getting a knife past security. No, it wasn't a gun, but treat kids like criminals, and they start thinking like criminals.
The local school to me, once Independence took possession, took out the metal detectors, etc. violence went down.
It just keeps getting worse as police lies are debunked. It was actually over an hour until anyone went in to save the kids, Border Patrol. The gunman was not confined to one classroom but got into four classrooms and killed. Parents were not allowed to rescue their kids but one mother jumped the fence and saved her two.
Bystanders wanted to go in because police were not doing anything and the police stopped them. Remember when the passengers stopped the 9/11 hijackers in Pennsylvania? Maybe there is an argument for vigilantism. It can't be worse than what happened in Uvalde.
Yes it is cowardice, with a coverup on top of it.
ETA The school resource officer they said was there was actually nowhere to be found.
Chicken lady
5-27-22, 5:59am
All of our school doors open only from the inside when locked. The building dates from the 1940s.
4 students snuck in and hid tiny art projects all over the school last night. I caught them because I am bad at going home. I guess if we had the kind of environment where it was pipe bombs I’d be dead.
If bullying is a cause I wonder why none of these shooters have ever been LGBTQ folks? I mean geez, currently the entire Republican Party is bullying us, with special focus on the teens in our ranks. Yet somehow we manage to not be spending our days going into schools and shooting things up.
If bullying is a cause I wonder why none of these shooters have ever been LGBTQ folks? I mean geez, currently the entire Republican Party is bullying us, with special focus on the teens in our ranks. Yet somehow we manage to not be spending our days going into schools and shooting things up.
LGBTQ kids kill themselves instead.
If bullying is a cause I wonder why none of these shooters have ever been LGBTQ folks? I mean geez, currently the entire Republican Party is bullying us, with special focus on the teens in our ranks. Yet somehow we manage to not be spending our days going into schools and shooting things up.
On Stephanie Miller's show this morning, this was mentioned. All three of the on-air talent are gay, and all had been bullied at school. There is a meme floating around with a picture of Ruby Bridges, and a caption "Bullied every day, never shot up a school."
If bullying is a cause I wonder why none of these shooters have ever been LGBTQ folks? I mean geez, currently the entire Republican Party is bullying us, with special focus on the teens in our ranks. Yet somehow we manage to not be spending our days going into schools and shooting things up.
I don't know if you noticed, but before the bodies were even cold, fake-news was circulating on the Internet claiming the shooter was trans/queer, with bogus photo "evidence" - it was all over social media.
Sick.
I spent my growing up years in San Antonio and knew Uvalde well. My thought is that the community just wasn't ready for this type of horrid event as they never expected it in their small town. Here in the big city, I had to go through all sorts of checks to get in the door to volunteer in a kindergarten class and that was three years ago. Doors locked, speaker at the inner door with cameras, ID required each time and escorted to classroom. It is sad to think that we have become a society that has to make fortresses of our public schools just in case. If I were raising kids again, I would opt to home school as I feel like the whole atmosphere of public schools is depressing.
I don't know if you noticed, but before the bodies were even cold, fake-news was circulating on the Internet claiming the shooter was trans/queer, with bogus photo "evidence" - it was all over social media.
Sick.
I'm betting he was an incel, as so many of his ilk are. Elliot Rodger has iconic stature among them.
I'm betting he was an incel, as so many of his ilk are. Elliot Rodger has iconic stature among them.
"Incel" to me seems like shorthand for "misogyny, patriarchy, and privilege".
Amia Srinivasan's recent book "The Right to Sex" is a good read, btw.
"Incel" to me seems like shorthand for "misogyny, patriarchy, and privilege".
"Incel" seems to me like a label made up by people who like to categorize people based upon their perception of them. The shorthand then comes into play after they've been categorized into 'love them', 'hate them' or 'ignore them' groups with subsets of "misogyny, patriarchy and privilege", among others.
"Incel" seems to me like a label made up by people who like to categorize people based upon their perception of them. The shorthand then comes into play after they've been categorized into 'love them', 'hate them' or 'ignore them' groups with subsets of "misogyny, patriarchy and privilege", among others.
I think the incels self-label though?
I think the incels self-label though?
Could be, but I've never known anyone to call themselves that. I don't get out much.
ApatheticNoMore
5-27-22, 5:02pm
Incel = asshole, but basically one who claims the reason they are an asshole is because they are sexually frustrated and owed sex. I mean there are other entirely different kinds of assholes of course. But honestly who really cares about the reason one is, blah blah, blah, who fricken cares. It's not to be confused with other entirely different things, voluntary and freely chosen celibacy for any reason (religion etc.), asexuality, non-assholes who aren't having much luck dating but don't have that chip on their shoulder (the last might claim so but it's really about having that kind of anger and hatred about it).
Could be, but I've never known anyone to call themselves that. I don't get out much.
There's some cultural adjacency to the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), PUA (Pickup Artist), and MRA (Men's Rights Activist) communities.
Basically it's a sewer out there.
I think the incels self-label though?
Yes, indeed--and they wear the label proudly.
ApatheticNoMore
5-27-22, 5:22pm
If bullying is a cause I wonder why none of these shooters have ever been LGBTQ folks? I mean geez, currently the entire Republican Party is bullying us, with special focus on the teens in our ranks. Yet somehow we manage to not be spending our days going into schools and shooting things up.
it's pretty much never females either, I mean I'm sure one can find a case, but for 50% of the population ....
"Incel" to me seems like shorthand for "misogyny, patriarchy, and privilege".
Amia Srinivasan's recent book "The Right to Sex" is a good read, btw.
Downloaded. Thanks.
Could be, but I've never known anyone to call themselves that. I don't get out much.
I've never known anyone to call themselves that either, but I don't hang out on 4- or 8-chan. Also, these losers (oooh--a label!) are generally much younger than most people I know. But I did a lot of reading around Elliot Rodger and his shooting, so I'm acquainted with the phenomenon..
ApatheticNoMore
5-27-22, 5:58pm
I'm familiar with the phenomena. It's been around awhile. It is a self-identified thing AND a form of choosing an identity (but a very unhealthy one, I mean there are plenty of things one could say are part of their identity that aren't toxic, but that's not one), regardless of what terms are used.
You can read more here: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=incels+and+mass+shootings&atb=v314-1&ia=web
ToomuchStuff
5-27-22, 9:40pm
If bullying is a cause I wonder why none of these shooters have ever been LGBTQ folks? I mean geez, currently the entire Republican Party is bullying us, with special focus on the teens in our ranks. Yet somehow we manage to not be spending our days going into schools and shooting things up.
it's pretty much never females either, I mean I'm sure one can find a case, but for 50% of the population ....
Come on. Don't you all remember any of the past discussions?
Maya "Alec" McKinney, Colorado and Brenda Spencer
https://youtu.be/Q6I9qVsXnSQ
Strict gun laws work.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/newsletter/2022-05-27/on-guns-fear-of-futility-deters-action-essential-politics
Strict gun laws work.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/newsletter/2022-05-27/on-guns-fear-of-futility-deters-action-essential-politics
How's that going in Chicago?
How's that going in Chicago?
Tell me you didn’t read the article without telling me you didn’t read the article.
Strict gun laws work.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/newsletter/2022-05-27/on-guns-fear-of-futility-deters-action-essential-politics
How's that going in New York, including Buffalo?
ToomuchStuff
5-28-22, 8:28am
Strict gun laws work.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/newsletter/2022-05-27/on-guns-fear-of-futility-deters-action-essential-politics
If you want someone to read it, you have to post a link that works (paywalls etc. are blockers).
catherine
5-28-22, 10:05am
Interesting post on FB by Derrick Jensen. I'm not an apologist for what's happening in this country, but he makes a lot of sense here.
I keep seeing lots of posts about how there is something about the US that causes mass killings. Other countries, like Australia, the UK, and Canada are held up as models. There are certainly many things wrong with the United States, but it would be nice if people based their opinions on physical reality. (the same thing happened early in Covid when people were saying that countries with female leaders had lower infection and death rates per capita, but if you crunched the numbers it ended up that wasn't accurate).
In terms of mass killings since 2017 there have been about 50 people killed and almost 1000 injured in mass killings in Britain. Since 2017 there have been 53 people killed and 38 injured in Canada. The population of the US is about ten times that of Canada. I don't believe more than 530 people have been killed in mass killings in the US since 2017. The population of Britain is about 1/5 that of the US. I'm not sure 250 people have been killed in mass killings in the US since 2017. If you look up school shootings, thus excluding other mass killings, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, Kenya, and Nigeria have had far more casualties than the US, and if you account for population differences Brazil and possibly Canada have greater per capita casualties.
Since 2017 Australia has had about 54 casualties in mass killings. The population of Australia is about 1/12th that of the US, and I don't believe the US has had more than 600 casualties in mass killings since 2017.
Now add, for more research: If you look up US casualties in mass killings since 2017, it looks like there were about 220 casualties. On a per capita basis, the US would have to have about 650 to equal Australia, 250 to equal Britain, and 530 to equal Canada.
Yes, there are more mass killings in the US than in many countries, but there are also a lot more people.
It took me less than ten minutes to look this up. Searches for "Mass killings" and the names of the countries, then add up the casualties from the listed mass killings.
I'm not saying mass killings are okay. i'm not saying the US is perfect. I'm not saying anything except that I wish people would allow facts to influence their statements This is a larger problem everywhere: people don't generally allow facts to affect their analysis (which is a big reason we wrote Bright Green Lies, etc)
According to Wikipedia:
The United States has had the most mass shootings of any country.[27][28][29][30][31] In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population.[32] The study concludes that "The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators."[33]
Also, this is a thoughtful treatment of the statistics involved:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country
ToomuchStuff
5-28-22, 11:06am
According to Wikipedia:
The United States has had the most mass shootings of any country.[27][28][29][30][31] In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population.[32] The study concludes that "The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators."[33]
Also, this is a thoughtful treatment of the statistics involved:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country
That just shows the method (what is available), not how to stop the violence.
Kid at work was asking about the whole arming the teacher thing and said what is the difference. I said so what will you say, when a teacher had enough abuse from either a, or some kids and starts shooting them, he replied that would be no different then it is now, which the response was exactly.
So in this thread the blame has been laid on the gun, the politicians, social media/peer pressure, etc. Not on the shooter. Complaining about violence against innocents, doesn't do any good when your wanting to commit violence against innocents (gun owners who haven't committed crimes)?
If you want someone to read it, you have to post a link that works (paywalls etc. are blockers).
Is everyone but me hitting a paywall?
One chart that sums up the whole article. The states with the highest gun deaths per capita have the least strict gun laws, and vice versa.
In 2005 California Texas and Florida had similar gun laws and similar death from gun rates. Since then California has tightened gun laws but Florida and Texas have gone in the other direction. California's gun death rate has declined 10% while Florida and Texas have gone up 37% and 28%. Mississippi and Louisiana, two of the more lax gun law states have gun death rates 8x the rates of MA and NJ, two of the states with more strict gun laws.
Anyone who says that gun control doesn't work is either lying or not well informed.
4508
Anyone who says that gun control doesn't work is either lying or not well informed.
4508
I think part of not being well informed involves articles such as this which do not adjust for suicides. If a gun is handy, it will probably be used to commit suicide, if one is not handy another method will probably be used and a complete removal of guns from a country would probably have little effect on the overall number of suicides in that country.
It would be more interesting to see the number of homicides by gun per 100,000 in the various states. That might be a better indicator of the effectiveness of gun control laws although it may not tell the story anti-gun proponents would prefer to see.
iris lilies
5-28-22, 11:54am
I think part of not being well informed involves articles such as this which do not adjust for suicides. If a gun is handy, it will probably be used to commit suicide, if one is not handy another method will probably be used and a complete removal of guns from a country would probably have little effect on the overall number of suicides in that country.
It would be more interesting to see the number of homicides by gun per 100,000 in the various states. That might be a better indicator of the effectiveness of gun control laws although it may not tell the story anti-gun proponents would prefer to see.
Ironically, the crowd who usually is all about supporting suicide is all about blocking access to an efficient method of doing that on one’s own with a gun.
maybe I’m wrong about that, and unlike JP I do not like representing a group to which I do not belong. But since I belong to the group that is in favor of assisted suicide, I also am in favor of allowing people to choose the when, where and why and how of that.
Is everyone but me hitting a paywall?
One chart that sums up the whole article. The states with the highest gun deaths per capita have the least strict gun laws, and vice versa.
In 2005 California Texas and Florida had similar gun laws and similar death from gun rates. Since then California has tightened gun laws but Florida and Texas have gone in the other direction. California's gun death rate has declined 10% while Florida and Texas have gone up 37% and 28%. Mississippi and Louisiana, two of the more lax gun law states have gun death rates 8x the rates of MA and NJ, two of the states with more strict gun laws.
Anyone who says that gun control doesn't work is either lying or not well informed.
4508
Correlation is not causation.
A lot of the darker states are poor southern states. How do you know poverty rather than lax gun laws isn't the cause?
Vermont has more gun deaths than Massachusetts. Is it really gun laws, or is that more people there hunt so there are more hunting accidental deaths?
catherine
5-28-22, 12:44pm
To me, the issue at hand is not how many gun deaths overall (which may include accidents, suicides, homocides by someone the assailant knew), but how many mass shooting events which resulted in at least one death. The US had 214 so far in 2022. Britain, in 2021, had its first mass shooting in over a decade.
This article in the NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/world/europe/gun-laws-australia-britain.html) talked about how gun control following a mass shooting greatly reduced these events in Britain and Australia. I like in particular this paragraph:
"[Australia] also reframed gun ownership from being an inherent right, as it is in only a handful of countries like the United States, to becoming a privilege that citizens had to affirmatively earn."
We are so hell-bent on gun rights that we forget that with rights come responsibilities? Why do we think we have all these unearned privileges when it comes to gun ownership?
Ironically, the crowd who usually is all about supporting suicide is all about blocking access to an efficient method of doing that on one’s own with a gun.
maybe I’m wrong about that, and unlike JP I do not like representing a group to which I do not belong. But since I belong to the group that is in favor of assisted suicide, I also am in favor of allowing people to choose the when, where and why and how of that.
There's a crowd that is all about supporting suicide? Are you referring to people who are in favor of people with terminal illnesses being able to end their lives on their own timeline? If that's what you are referring to then surely we can come up with less barbaric ways for them to do it than blowing their brains out with an AR15.
For people without terminal illnesses I wouldn't prefer making suicide easier, I'd rather make mental healthcare access easier so that less people felt that suicide was their best option.
ApatheticNoMore
5-28-22, 1:44pm
I keep seeing lots of posts about how there is something about the US that causes mass killings. Other countries, like Australia, the UK, and Canada are held up as models. There are certainly many things wrong with the United States, but it would be nice if people based their opinions on physical reality.
isn't it strange though to restrict it to mass killings, rather than overall murder rate? The U.S. may be middling there in a global perspective (which probably sums up the u.s. in most things, not among the best, but not the worst). Some of central and south America are very high in murders. But it is higher than the countries it likes to compare itself with like Australia, UK and Canada mentioned above
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country
I mean I'd kind of assume mass shootouts are fairly rare to begin with. Though I was on a phone call with someone who lost a friend at that church shooting in CA just recently.
isn't it strange though to restrict it to mass killings, rather than overall murder rate?
It's clever marketing.
It's convenient that the NRA is having their convention this weekend. Perfect time for them to celebrate their most recent success. And have their hero trump dancing on the graves of the dead Uvalde children.
Statistics are easily manipulated. For example, Norway is number one in mass shooting deaths because it has a small population and suffered one large mass casualty event (77 deaths?) some years ago.
Personally, I think 213 mass shootings in five months, as we have just had, is excessive.
iris lilies
5-28-22, 4:46pm
There's a crowd that is all about supporting suicide? Are you referring to people who are in favor of people with terminal illnesses being able to end their lives on their own timeline? If that's what you are referring to then surely we can come up with less barbaric ways for them to do it than blowing their brains out with an AR15.
For people without terminal illnesses I wouldn't prefer making suicide easier, I'd rather make mental healthcare access easier so that less people felt that suicide was their best option.
right, because mental health service will cure all. Silly me.
maybe unrelenting depression *IS*a terminal illness.
right, because mental health service will cure all. Silly me.
maybe unrelenting depression *IS*a terminal illness.
After spending decades helping my partner with that, and having available the best mental health services money and contacts could buy, I'd have to agree with you, in not all cases will there be a positive outcome.
But, a lot of people can be helped.
ToomuchStuff
5-28-22, 5:18pm
We are so hell-bent on gun rights that we forget that with rights come responsibilities? Why do we think we have all these unearned privileges when it comes to gun ownership?
Two very different things.
Personally, I think 213 mass shootings in five months, as we have just had, is excessive.
I think most people here would love to see no mass shootings. Not the same as an argument over how many isn't excessive.
right, because mental health service will cure all. Silly me.
maybe unrelenting depression *IS*a terminal illness.
I couldn't agree more with both of your points. Mental health care should certainly be available and affordable, but in the long run, the choice is the individual's.
right, because mental health service will cure all. Silly me.
maybe unrelenting depression *IS*a terminal illness.
Once everyone has access to affordable and quality mental healthcare I'll be more willing to accept our suicide rate. Right now that simply isn't the case. At least some suicides would be preventable with treatment. Just as it simply isn't the case that quality pregnancy care is available. It's not culture that causes black women to be more likely to die while pregnant than white women, it's that black women are significantly more likely to be effing poor and not have access to decent healthcare.
At least Daniel Defense had the intelligence to pull their booth from the NRA deathshow this weekend. Republicans are looking the wrong direction if they are trying to find groomers. It ain't LGBTQ folks...
4510
iris lilies
5-28-22, 9:13pm
Once everyone has access to affordable and quality mental healthcare I'll be more willing to accept our suicide rate. Right now that simply isn't the case. At least some suicides would be preventable with treatment. Just as it simply isn't the case that quality pregnancy care is available. It's not culture that causes black women to be more likely to die while pregnant than white women, it's that black women are significantly more likely to be effing poor and not have access to decent healthcare.
More likely to be poor and uneducated and everything that goes with that. It is a culture of poverty.
edited to add: I didn’t even have to look far, I barely Googled, to find an authoritative article that says the main reason for not getting prenatal care is mindset/attitude.That is culture. Here it is, the first to come up:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7779227/
“…The most important reasons for not seeking early prenatal care were attitudinal (47%), financial (26%), and structural and system problems (8.5%). Financial reasons were more important to white than to black or Hispanic women, and attitudinal reasons were more important to black and Hispanic than to white women…”
More likely to be poor and uneducated and everything that goes with that. It is a culture of poverty.
edited to add: I didn’t even have to look far, I barely Googled, to find an authoritative article that says the main reason for not getting prenatal care is mindset/attitude.That is culture. Here it is, the first to come up:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7779227/
“…The most important reasons for not seeking early prenatal care were attitudinal (47%), financial (26%), and structural and system problems (8.5%). Financial reasons were more important to white than to black or Hispanic women, and attitudinal reasons were more important to black and Hispanic than to white women…”
It would be interesting to know what 'culture' caused them to not seek prenatal care. How much of it is doctors that are dismissive of minority patients' concerns, or even worse, women concerned about doctors actively trying to harm them since that is a very real part of black history.*
Five years from now you'll be able to find articles about why white kids are dying of diptheria and whooping cough. Culture. Stupid, completely unjustified, conspiracy theory culture that thinks all vaccinations are harmful poison intended to harm people, fed by evil ****s like tucker carlson and various republican politicians.
*LGBTQ people also share that fear. My college roommate was a gay man who started having sex with other men when he was in high school. At one point, when he was 17, his mother asked him "are you gay?" He told her that he was and she, trying to be a good mother, asked if he wanted to go to therapy. His response was that most therapists only worked on trying to make people straight (this was the mid 80's) so he didn't see the point since he didn't want to do that. Even today the ugly absurdity that is conversion therapy is still inflicted on LGBTQ youth in states where the haters run the government.
So now I hear that Ted Cruz thinks that schools should go with the "triangle shirtwaist factory" method of securing themselves. Fascinating. And absurdly stupid. Are texans really stupid enough to think that he's a good senator? LDAHL's theory that conservatism isn't dying an ugly painful death kind of conflicts with the fact that Ted Cruz exists.
ApatheticNoMore
5-29-22, 1:01am
Once everyone has access to affordable and quality mental healthcare I'll be more willing to accept our suicide rate. Right now that simply isn't the case.
Yea but honestly I'm not sure it's the case anywhere. Lots of countries don't have as much mental health care as people would like and there are shortages of mental health practitioners. There aren't enough practitioners here to really serve everyone well. Yes of course in the u.s., there are also cost barriers to healthcare and even moreso in states that haven't expanded medicaid. But really I'm not sure what anyone is asking for, either for mental healthcare as the solution to prevent mass shootings, or to prevent most suicides, is even realistic.
Chicken lady
5-29-22, 6:47am
Our school is out for the summer.
On the last day a group of students was handing out “anti gun violence” badges and I took one.
A nine year old asked me if I was anti guns. I told her “I think guns should be used to kill things you plan to eat. And raccoons. Because they eat my chickens and I haven’t found any other way to make them stop coming back.”
she asked “would you shoot somebody to protect us?” And I told her “if I had to - but I’d rather have another choice, people are more teachable than raccoons.” (Some if them anyway)
1. Over half of baby formula is paid for by WIC. There are plenty of financial supports for pregnant women, and anti-abortion groups fill in the gaps. The issue is after the baby is born, not access to prenatal care.
2. Anti-vaxxers are not all white, and some of the whites have multiracial children. JP should do murals or other large scale art works, because he loves painting with a broad brush.
iris lilies
5-29-22, 9:24am
…
2. Anti-vaxxers are not all white, and some of the whites have multiracial children. JP should do murals or other large scale art works, because he loves painting with a broad brush.
I see jp’s take on poor pregnant black women as further indication of his deep submersion in the laptop-suburbia culture, learning about these United States via media outlets of one voice.
Sure, he has to step over street people when he ventures into SF city ( and I am not minimizing how bad that is, in that beautiful city, ugh!) but basically he gets to go home and remove himself from the ugly realities of life that are all caused by Republicans, anyway.Ain’t no brothers shooting up his serene neighborhood, as we encounter weekly around here.
oh and those guns here…pretty likely they were obtained and held against any law on the books. Imagine that! A law that does not control human behavior.
Chicken lady
5-29-22, 11:20am
Right. Laws are useless because people break them. I mean, look at speed limits - why do we even have them? Laws are a waste of time. Think of how much tax money we could save if we fired all the people who make laws! And the ones who waste their time trying to enforce them! And all the money we spend on locking up the people who break them.
laws don’t stop crime. The only thing that can stop crime is a good guy with a gun!
btw, having tried to run a raccoon through with a pitchfork and failed, I am fully aware that while I have no moral or emotional reservations about shooting someone to save one of my students, that will never actually happen. Because 1) I will not be armed 2) if I should somehow become armed I would probably miss. My lockdown plan is to stick the kids in the concrete block wall indent, grab the fire extinguisher, lock the door, push my desk against it, and spray anybody who comes through it with the fire extinguisher in the 5-7 foot zone. So basically, if a shooter ever enters my room, I’m dead.
I think it's wrong to keep fixating on gun control and guns as the way to solve these issues. It think Einstein was right, "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
I would like discussion around how to make schools places where students are nurtured, not bullied. I would like discussions where people admit they don't know how to make this situation better, and that we need to be talking about what is wrong with society and schools, why people feel hopeless and and are helpless.
We are not talking about the root issues. In my opinion, anyway.
I think it's wrong to keep fixating on gun control and guns as the way to solve these issues. It think Einstein was right, "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
I would like discussion around how to make schools places where students are nurtured, not bullied. I would like discussions where people admit they don't know how to make this situation better, and that we need to be talking about what is wrong with society and schools, why people feel hopeless and and are helpless.
We are not talking about the root issues. In my opinion, anyway.
Cornell West talks a lot about the need for love.
ToomuchStuff
5-29-22, 4:01pm
Cornell West talks a lot about the need for love.
And the Beetles have been singing that is all we need since the 60's. Hasn't stopped the violence.
No reason the problem can't be approached from different angles simultaneously. At least a few countries apparently solved their mass shooting problem with tough, instant gun laws.
No reason the problem can't be approached from different angles simultaneously. At least a few countries apparently solved their mass shooting problem with tough, instant gun laws.
What would a "tough, instant gun law" look like to you?
frugal-one
5-29-22, 8:32pm
What would a "tough, instant gun law" look like to you?
Thought CBS Sunday morning interview piece…. with newly elected prime minister years ago and his change in gun laws was right on!
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/what-can-australia-teach-us-about-mass-shootings/
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/what-can-australia-teach-us-about-mass-shootings/#
What would a "tough, instant gun law" look like to you?
See my earlier posts for particulars.
I'm well aware the chance of any meaningful progress in this country, in this era, is minuscule.
gimmethesimplelife
5-29-22, 10:02pm
One upside if there can be an upside here? More people, even some people unmoved by the cold blooded murder of George Floyd, are seeing US police for the wretched evil they (mostly) are. I am delighted that this reality seems to be knocking on the doors of the upper middle and what little is left of the US middle class.
Boy howdy did US police screw up big time this time - and in such a way that is utterly unforgivable. It's bad enough that the Uvalde TX police proved themselves to be cowardly sociopathic pension accruing trash via their cold blooded refusal to save children's lives - BUT THEY HAD THE GALL to handcuff and tase parents who had the cajones to enter the building and attempt to save their kids. This is utterly non-forgiveable. I have no connection to Uvalde, TX - this is true. But I will never forgive America for holding these schoolchildren lives so cheaply.
I will continue to laugh and love and work and save money - but something in me has died since this Uvalde event. I'm really only filling space in this country for the most part. I don't like admitting it but my Austrian relations really are dead on about this country - hypocritical though they may be regarding other issues.
Stay as safe as you can out there folks.....the speed at which this society is unraveling is increasing.
Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-29-22, 10:07pm
I think it's wrong to keep fixating on gun control and guns as the way to solve these issues. It think Einstein was right, "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
I would like discussion around how to make schools places where students are nurtured, not bullied. I would like discussions where people admit they don't know how to make this situation better, and that we need to be talking about what is wrong with society and schools, why people feel hopeless and and are helpless.
We are not talking about the root issues. In my opinion, anyway.Thank You for your sane take, Tybee. I believe also the root causes remain unaddressed and the conversations you brought up are not and likely will not happen. I may be a gay man - and I will not be passing along my DNA via reproduction - but as a human being the lack of safety in our public schools truly angers me. Beyond the level of some issues I've protested over before.
Rob
See my earlier posts for particulars.
I'm well aware the chance of any meaningful progress in this country, in this era, is minuscule.
I have several magazine-fed firearms that belonged to my great-grandfather. They date from ~1910, still function fine, and would be "assault rifles" under most of the legislation I see being bandied about. I'm not so sure I'd be keen to hand them over to be crushed and melted into a statue.
A buyback program would cost a small fortune - ~20 million AR-15s in the USA in civilian hands right now. For the sake of discussion, assume each rifle+naughty accessories is worth $1000, so that's $20 billion just for the AR-15s (which, admittedly, are the most popular rifle in the USA for all sorts of applications, and have been for decades). In 2018, it was estimated that there are 393 million firearms in private hands in the country, and it's probably higher now. Assume it's 400 million for roundness, assume on average a value of $500, and, well, that's $200 billion for a buyback.
My own personal collection of historical firearms was appraised at a bit north of $XXXk for insurance purposes recently, and frankly I'd probably take the cash for 95% of the collection, as I'm trying to declutter my life. But you can't have it all...
And I've got about $5k in machine tools in my workshop that it'd make sense to ban and buy back too.
gimmethesimplelife
5-29-22, 11:27pm
Funny.....in regards to my prior post regarding my inability to forgive. I've been reading testimony of Holocaust Survivor and longtime Hoosier Eva Kor - one of the more famous twins used for medical experiments. She managed to forgive and move on with her life, after experiencing that which makes mey problems seem trivial. I will spend more time reading her striking and deeply moving testimony.
Rob
Teacher Terry
5-29-22, 11:34pm
Rob, her story and ability to forgive is unforgettable.
ApatheticNoMore
5-30-22, 3:40am
Maybe some way could be found to identify dangerous young people (males really) earlier (in childhood) etc. and steer them in a better direction. It seems very intense and to takes resource that don't really exist, from teachers/parents etc.. But some states may take it up to provide community resources (those with wealth and a tax base and taxes to do it. California has looked into some things I think, I can't claim it has any particular success level, I don't think it's much implemented). Even then I doubt they have resources to do it intensely enough either. I mean it seems like it would be quite costly. And even then I can't see how some people don't still slip through without help.
And that's talking about things that could in theory be done, allocating state resources, in states with resources and a tax base enough to allocate. If that's what is meant by mental health, intense involvement early on. I mean if mental health is just therapy should be available, well it might not be a bad thing, but that seems especially weak tea. And gun control is more likely to pass than changes on the federal level of the scope suggested.
Men need to step up. In my area when I checked on it when my son was young there were plenty of women willing to be Big Sisters but a great shortage of men willing to be Big Brothers.
They're probably too busy fondling their magazine-fed firearms.
Men need to step up. In my area when I checked on it when my son was young there were plenty of women willing to be Big Sisters but a great shortage of men willing to be Big Brothers.
They're probably too busy fondling their magazine-fed firearms.
Too bad Boy Scouts isn't what it used to be. My troop project one year was gun safety.
Not to distract from the mass shooting issue, but without checking statistics, all sorts of gun violence is up in my city and I suspect many others. A lot of it is with stolen guns, ghost guns, or other pistols that any assault rifle issues will not affect. We have a gun culture in TV, movies, and video games that affects easily influenced young.
I was active in a NRA youth shooting program, but the NRA isn't what it used to be either. Also, I was enrolled in a hunter safety certification required to get a hunting license in my state, but interest in hunting isn't the same either.
Rob, her story and ability to forgive is unforgettable.
Terry and Rob, I also find her story to be one of the two or three most memorable human testaments I have ever heard--I think of her often.
We had an assault weapons ban between 1994 and 2004. It survived court challenges, but not the Bush administration. It served to hold the line, and there was a big spike in gun violence after it was allowed to expire, apparently. It didn't affect anyone's collection.
I'm hardly a policy expert, but it seems to me we would do well to study countries that don't have this problem and put together a comprehensive plan to address it.
I heard that this latest shooter's relatives said he was practically a choir boy, showing absolutely no signs of violence. I wonder how they missed his repeated violent animal abuse, which would landed him in jail for life if I were queen.
We had an assault weapons ban between 1994 and 2004. It survived court challenges, but not the Bush administration. It served to hold the line, and there was a big spike in gun violence after it was allowed to expire, apparently. It didn't affect anyone's collection.
I'm hardly a policy expert, but it seems to me we would do well to study countries that don't have this problem and put together a comprehensive plan to address it.
No argument from me and it makes sense, but it seems like we differ from other countries by being previously awash in guns that will not go away, even with new restrictions. Since there are some basic differences in legality among the states and it would make sense to me to start there.
We had an assault weapons ban between 1994 and 2004. It survived court challenges, but not the Bush administration. It served to hold the line, and there was a big spike in gun violence after it was allowed to expire, apparently. It didn't affect anyone's collection.
I don't think the Bush administration had much to do with its demise since the Democratic administration which ushered it into existence allowed a sunset provision allowing it to expire after 10 years. While it was in effect it didn't impact anyone's 'collection' because it didn't apply to weapons manufactured prior to the legislations signing. I think it was more of a show ban to appease its sponsors backers without actually doing anything.
I'm hardly a policy expert, but it seems to me we would do well to study countries that don't have this problem and put together a comprehensive plan to address it.
I'm not a policy expert either but it seems to me that those countries don't have a 2nd Amendment. I suppose we could try to convince 2/3 of both houses of Congress and 3/4 of the states to repeal a constitutional right but that's a pretty slippery slope.
I'm not a policy expert either but it seems to me that those countries don't have a 2nd Amendment. I suppose we could try to convince 2/3 of both houses of Congress and 3/4 of the states to repeal a constitutional right but that's a pretty slippery slope.
Well, the 18th Amendment turned out to be a bad idea, and they replaced it with the 21st, right?
Well, the 18th Amendment turned out to be a bad idea, and they replaced it with the 21st, right?I guess you could say the 18th Amendment was a morality play which resulted in making average citizens criminals and the 21st Amendment corrected that travesty. I think there are parallels in play here between the 18th Amendment and whatever future Amendment may repeal the 2nd.
catherine
5-30-22, 10:14am
I guess you could say the 18th Amendment was a morality play which resulted in making average citizens criminals and the 21st Amendment corrected that travesty. I think there are parallels in play here between the 18th Amendment and whatever future Amendment may repeal the 2nd.
My point is the Constitution is open to interpretation. That's why there are Constitutional scholars and lawyers. Plus, if the language has to be clarified or tightened up to better reflect the needs of the citizens, the Constitution is flexible enough to allow for that. After all, part of the preamble's mission is to "ensure domestic tranquility" and "promote the general welfare."
My point is the Constitution is open to interpretation. That's why there are Constitutional scholars and lawyers. Plus, if the language has to be clarified or tightened up to better reflect the needs of the citizens, the Constitution is flexible enough to allow for that. After all, part of the preamble's mission is to "ensure domestic tranquility" and "promote the general welfare."
IMO, Thomas Jefferson had the right idea:
"When Thomas Jefferson asserted that a constitution should change every 19 to 20 years, he was expressing a deep-rooted conviction that governments need to adapt to survive. Although he did not personally participate in drafting the U.S. Constitution, he had strong opinions about what political leaders had to do in order to make it work."
I love how the right always conveniently ignores the key part of the second amendment that reads "A well-regulated militia..." How do any of these violence-prone, loosely-wrapped murderers fit into that description? In my interpretation, the National Guard serves the purpose perfectly. On the other hand, it would be cool to have a suitcase nuke or two...:D
I love how the right always conveniently ignores the key part of the second amendment that reads "A well-regulated militia..." How do any of these violence-prone, loosely-wrapped murderers fit into that description? In my interpretation, the National Guard serves the purpose perfectly. On the other hand, it would be cool to have a suitcase nuke or two...:D
The NRA guy they interviewed on TV brought up the Ukraine invasion and how government had to provide weapons for their citizens. While it seems highly unlikely that sort of thing could happen here, sometimes I wonder. But I agree that some perceive the constitution as biblical word of a higher source, when it was probably meant by the founders to be a living document that would evolve as society changes.
The NRA guy they interviewed on TV brought up the Ukraine invasion and how government had to provide weapons for their citizens. While it seems highly unlikely that sort of thing could happen here, sometimes I wonder. But I agree that some perceive the constitution as biblical word of a higher source, when it was probably meant by the founders to be a living document that would evolve as society changes.
Ukraine was apparently effective enough in distributing weapons--and don't we have armories?
Ukraine was apparently effective enough in distributing weapons--and don't we have armories?
Assuming the government would be our friend in the case of an insurrection, as I'm sure some NRA members would point out.
Assuming the government would be our friend in the case of an insurrection, as I'm sure some NRA members would point out.
In some sort of "insurrection", I suspect this book would be more helpful than having a firearm for many purposes:
https://hazmatpac.com/assets/product-images/North-American-Emergency-Response-Guidebook-Year-2021-Product-P120835-1-v15.jpg
In some sort of "insurrection", I suspect this book would be more helpful than having a firearm for many purposes:
https://hazmatpac.com/assets/product-images/North-American-Emergency-Response-Guidebook-Year-2021-Product-P120835-1-v15.jpg
Although I find the thought of blasting away at the Proud Boys (sic) and their ilk appealing, I'm afraid they'll far out-gun me. I should invest in some sort of survival guide, I guess.
rosarugosa
5-30-22, 6:08pm
But I agree that some perceive the constitution as biblical word of a higher source, when it was probably meant by the founders to be a living document that would evolve as society changes.
Very well said, Rogar.
Canada is proposing a prohibition on the importation, sale or purchase of handguns.
Thinking about the 18th and 21at amendments, it is fascinating to me that we won’t allow anyone under the age of 21 to buy a beer but we happily (at least some people are happy about it) allow them to go out and buy machines with no purpose other than killing other people. Interesting priorities we have.
ToomuchStuff
5-30-22, 6:41pm
In some sort of "insurrection", I suspect this book would be more helpful than having a firearm for many purposes:
https://hazmatpac.com/assets/product-images/North-American-Emergency-Response-Guidebook-Year-2021-Product-P120835-1-v15.jpg
Thought you might actually reference something like:
https://archive.org/details/milmanual-tm-31-210-improvised-munitions-handbook
Thinking about the 18th and 21at amendments, it is fascinating to me that we won’t allow anyone under the age of 21 to buy a beer but we happily (at least some people are happy about it) allow them to go out and buy machines with no purpose other than killing other people. Interesting priorities we have.
Yep, we should lower the drinking age to 18.
frugal-one
5-31-22, 6:09am
See Canada has stopped the sale or import of handguns. Already ban assault weapons. News yesterday showed PM relaying specifics.
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-22, 11:28am
Astrid sent another email. The family is worried for me - now there's been a shooting in Tulsa, OK. She and her extremely well paid air traffic controller husband recommend I minimize contact with society while being alive is so unsafe. I do believe they are a tad dramatic but they do hold much better citizenship and on this one issue - they are right if a tad dramatic.
Since WW2 Austrians have not had to deal with this issue much - though there was an attack in Vienna two years ago in December. Rob
iris lilies
6-3-22, 12:18pm
Astrid sent another email. The family is worried for me - now there's been a shooting in Tulsa, OK. She and her extremely well paid air traffic controller husband recommend I minimize contact with society while being alive is so unsafe. I do believe they are a tad dramatic but they do hold much better citizenship and on this one issue - they are right if a tad dramatic.
Since WW2 Austrians have not had to deal with this issue much - though there was an attack in Vienna two years ago in December. Rob
Yes, the Missives from Austria are are dramatic.Clearly you all share DNA.
In news from our European (well, not quite) relatives, our cousin pulled up the carpet on her old Scottish cottage that she’s renovating and found a stone floor. Score!
It's not just Austrians. Some Americans want to shut down schools, like kids can't be shot at malls, churches, grocery stores, you name it.
I don't want to shut down schools. I want people to stop shrugging their shoulders over the fact that American children are more likely than cops to get shot and pretending that the long expired Brady Bill didn't reduce gun violence. But some people believe that the second half of the second amendment is more important than children's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness so we'll probably continue to normalize childhood gun death for the forseeable future as people continue to argue the absurd idea that more and more and more and more guns will somehow reduce the number of deaths from guns.
Our collective future does not bode well if we continue to prioritize guns over the well-being of the next generation.
Too bad we don't fetishize something positive like literature or cuisine...
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-22, 4:56pm
It's not just Austrians. Some Americans want to shut down schools, like kids can't be shot at malls, churches, grocery stores, you name it.I don't know that I am 100 percent for shutting down schools - and I'm also afraid that they remain open. Obviously the lives of American children mean absolutely nothing as proven in Uvalde, TX. Under these conditions, to spare human life, I'm thinking it's for the best for our kids to do education almost 100 percent online. Can anyone else come up with a better way to protect young human life from the United States, a country which just proved beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that the right to bear arms is more important than our youth/future/human life?
I really wish this country would get a clue and offer citizenship buyout offers OR split into two separate countries, the one I'd choose of course would put human life WAY WAY WAY over the right to bear arms. How America is currently unfolding in regards to these issues is utterly unacceptable. I for one deserve much better - don't you?
Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-22, 4:58pm
Our collective future does not bode well if we continue to prioritize guns over the well-being of the next generation.Exactly. I could not have said this any better myself.
Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-22, 5:00pm
Too bad we don't fetishize something positive like literature or cuisine...Or second passports.....Rob
flowerseverywhere
6-3-22, 8:11pm
Does anyone have any ideas what to say to my grandchild who is having nightmares about being shot or held hostage? They have minimal tv or social media in their but as soon as they leave the house the kids talk about it.
iris lilies
6-3-22, 9:04pm
Does anyone have any ideas what to say to my grandchild who is having nightmares about being shot or held hostage? They have minimal tv or social media in their but as soon as they leave the house the kids talk about it.
sure.
Talk to them about odds of things happening. Mom and daddy dying? Pretty low odds. It happens, but very unlikely. Hurricane flattening my house with me in it? Pretty low odds, it could happen but there are some measures we take to make sure that doesn’t happen. Dying or being seriously injured in a car accident? More likely than getting shot in school.
Do some exercises with real statistics. Real numbers.
And a second lesson can be about the media and why it focuses on the stories that it does. Why do they do that? What’s in it for them? What’s in it for their readers/listeners?
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-22, 10:10pm
Does anyone have any ideas what to say to my grandchild who is having nightmares about being shot or held hostage? They have minimal tv or social media in their but as soon as they leave the house the kids talk about it.Wow! With all the problems I had growing up, I never worried about being shot or held hostage. It's just unrealistic to me that US society has sunk to the point where a young child's fears of being shot or held hostage are not entirely unrealistic - especially since the right to bear arms is clearly more important than human life. I'm glad I'm not young these days. What utter insanity.
Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-22, 10:11pm
Should have been it's just surreal to me above.
Rob
It's true that statistically one is not likely to be killed in such a manner but that doesn't stop the fear especially for children who are always trying to make sense of things. Once the thought of that bogeyman is in their head, the fear remains. So sad. I guess it would depend on the age of the child how I would approach that discussion. I recall having active shooter trainings at work; I never thought about it much prior to that but being shown how to lock doors and hide left scary images in my head that still haunt.
Teacher Terry
6-8-22, 8:11pm
Matthew McCannahy gave a good speech saying most people want to find a middle ground to keep kids safe such as raising the age to purchase guns, etc. Today stupid Mitch McConnell is saying democrats need to pass legislation to protect judges today. How about republicans help pass laws to help kids FIRST you entitled asshole and then we can look at helping judges.
TT, you clearly don’t understand. To republicans humans don’t have value once they pass out of the fetus stage of development. Justice beer is one of the rare humans who has passed that stage yet has value once again because he’s a federalist society approved (tm) Supreme Court justice.
littlebittybobby
7-26-22, 1:35pm
See---I know what it is, and so I'll share it with you. The news media creates a ripple effect by each incident and making the perpetrator notorious. You'll notice the profile--okay--stereotype--of the perp is that of an antisocial maladjusted malcontent, who unlike summa these celebrities & athletes & demmacratz has no venue---a podium--to vent their internal rage and resentment. So, they hop on the bandwagon pulled by Big Media. They actually meet each others needs! It's a perverse symbiotic relationship. Yup. S'how also they sell laundry soap, monster pickups, EBikes, etc. Big gummint has known this for a long time---why do you think public policy was enacted to curtail advertising of tobacco products, for instance? But, cigarettes aren't illegal, are they?
Go ahead and stick to your guns, or insist on Banning them, but miscreants will find an alternate method. One way gangstas avenge themselves is to throw gas on the object of their hatred. They can buy gas way easier than a firearm. So, how do you combat that? Oh yeah--Ban Fossil Fuels NOW, thereby sending the economy into a deep, deep, deep depression. But, if you insist that Big Media use some discretion---watch them trot out their arguments about the Constitution and see the paranoia take hold! Yup. Now you know. Hope that helps you some. 4632
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