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catherine
6-5-22, 8:24am
From Ezra Klein, NYT today in "Don't Let Climate Change Stop You From Having Children."

"Fredric Jameson, the Marxist literary critic, is often credited with the observation that it’s easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism."

Discuss.

LDAHL
6-5-22, 10:54am
I agree. Any system so productive it can afford frivolous luxuries like “Marxist literary critics” will easily see us to the stars.

Yppej
6-5-22, 11:11am
At a mimimum you should have them at or below the replacement rate.

happystuff
6-5-22, 11:11am
I really think a lot of folks believe they can buy their way out of the end of the world.

LDAHL
6-5-22, 11:19am
I really think a lot of folks believe they can buy their way out of the end of the world.

Given the historical record of the doomsayers, I think the odds favor the optimists. Not yet, but that day is coming when people will be able to buy passage to other worlds.

happystuff
6-5-22, 11:22am
Given the historical record of the doomsayers, I think the odds favor the optimists. Not yet, but that day is coming when people will be able to buy passage to other worlds.

I have no doubts that you are right about this.

Rogar
6-5-22, 11:32am
From Ezra Klein, NYT today in "Don't Let Climate Change Stop You From Having Children." Discuss.

Climate change is plenty enough reason to voluntarily limit family size. We need children with environmental concern and leadership potential to keep the next generation from destroying themselves or at least clean up the mess.

happystuff
6-5-22, 11:34am
Climate change is plenty enough reason to voluntarily limit family size. We need children with environmental concern and leadership potential to keep the next generation from destroying themselves or at least clean up the mess.

I don't think it is a "next generation" thing but rather a "now" and "all of us" thing.

Rogar
6-5-22, 11:36am
I don't think it is a "next generation" thing but rather a "now" and "all of us" thing.

Sort of deviates from the issue of having children or not?

As CNS+Y would say, teach your children well.

happystuff
6-5-22, 11:52am
Sort of deviates from the issue of having children or not?

I admit to skirting the issue of have children or not to focus more on the issues of who and when action and education should start. So, from that perspective, I am in the "now" and "all of us" camp, versus waiting for the next generation to be education and to do.

ApatheticNoMore
6-5-22, 12:00pm
I agree with at minimum have them at or below replacement rate because growing population just makes life on earth worse.

Is the idea they might inherit a terrible world? I think they very well might. But money may still cushion some of it, so if you are rich their position will be better than not, and it's probably a rich audience to which Ezra Klien speaks. And if you are in Bangladesh, well you are just screwed regardless. But I don't think this actually stops anyone. To some extent what does it even matter, even if kids were bound to live miserable lives at some point in the future and die before the natural age span, anyone is only ever here briefly anyway. Just think of a plant seed that lands somewhere inhospitable and still germinates and only lives briefly.

pinkytoe
6-5-22, 3:06pm
teach your children well
I am disheartened when I go to our neighborhood park and watch how many children behave. Total disregard for the plants and water fowl at the park. Ripping limbs out of trees, chasing ducks and geese and throwing things at them. Ignoring signage that states keeping out of wild nesting areas, ie smashing eggs. Respect for the natural world and other beings is something that is taught and apparently it isn't being done for many children. It isn't the quantity of humans so much as the quality I think as far as the future. One of the reasons I'd like to live closer to my grandchildren - so that I could help foster a respectful attitude.

Chicken lady
6-5-22, 9:35pm
Pinkytoe,

do you speak to these children? Do you show them how the tree grows and what happens when its limbs are broken? Do you tell them about the shade and how it is amazing how much cooler places with trees are? About how the trees clean the air? Feed and shelter the wildlife? Drop leaves to become soil? Do you tell them about the ducks and geese and how they behave and what they eat? how they hatch their eggs and raise a family?

Yppej
6-6-22, 5:34am
I don't go up to strange children and talk to them. I don't want to be accused of being a groomer.

Chicken lady
6-6-22, 8:58am
And there you have one of the fundamental differences between us.

I prefer the world I live in.

Chicken lady
6-6-22, 9:01am
Trying out new signature.

catherine
6-6-22, 9:30am
Nice signature, Chicken lady!

So, to me the reason this question is provocative is because it challenges our basic assumption that the status quo (capitalism) is the only way and the best way to organize government and society.
I have nothing against capitalism per se. It has provided us many, many benefits, not the least of which is the ability to communicate with y'all through the air in some mysterious way. Nor do I think the idea of the end of capitalism means I'm being a doomsayer or a pessimist. The end of many things are timely and the "end of XXX" is often not a message of doom, but simply of transition. For instance, for a newly-engaged person, the end of the single life might spell doom for some, but for most it is a new beginning of wonderful things.

So, "the end of capitalism" to me is a neutral statement at this point. James M. Barrie said in his play "The Admirable Crichton" circumstances alter cases. We have circumstances at this point where it is worthwhile to think about whether or not capitalism has run its course, much the same way that at some period of history, feudalism was deemed outmoded and made way for capitalism to become dominant in the West.

I think it's time to rethink capitalism. Unlimited economic growth and production is completely antagonistic to maintaining balance and harmony with the life forms that sustain us. It's like the person who thinks that the more eating you do the healthier you will be, until it becomes obvious that that's not the case. At some point, that overweight person has to moderate intake and even cut back and even do that unmentionable word--sacrifice--certain foods in order to bring his bodily systems back in balance.

It's hard for many to even think about capitalism as being only one option among many possibilities, which is why it is easier for people to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism.

I am not pessimistic--I am only a bit frustrated by the lack of imagination. As an optimist, there are so many things we can do to offset the imbalance we're facing. I don't support capitalism as the only answer to solve these problems--solutions like amping up technology and building solar farms and wind turbines may be a part of the solution set, but it's by no means the only one.

We can localize our politics, industry and services
We can put limits on excessive growth
We can write policies for demurrage/negative interest
We can prioritize community and deprioritize corporate interests
We can transition out of capitalism to something altogether new and more egalitarian.
We can hybridize capitalism and with other innovative solutions; we can incentivize worker co-ops and share profits with not just shareholders but the workers.
We can honor and respect living systems over dead ones.
We can manifest reciprocity with the earth instead of being purely transactional and seeing nature as nothing more than a commodity or a resource.

So, I'm not saying the sky is falling. I think that we'll figure it out, but I am highly suspicious that maintaining an unlimited growth mindset with capitalism as the engine is going to benefit any of us.

happystuff
6-6-22, 9:47am
Very nicely said, catherine. Thank you. Lots to think about in what you posted.

JaneV2.0
6-6-22, 11:03am
The nature of unrestrained capitalism is that it generates plenty of resources to assure that none of the (perfectly sensible) policies you list will ever be implemented, and plenty of plutocrats to see to it.

"We can localize our politics, industry and services
We can put limits on excessive growth
We can write policies for demurrage/negative interest
We can prioritize community and deprioritize corporate interests
We can transition out of capitalism to something altogether new and more egalitarian.
We can hybridize capitalism and with other innovative solutions; we can incentivize worker co-ops and share profits with not just shareholders but the workers.
We can honor and respect living systems over dead ones.
We can manifest reciprocity with the earth instead of being purely transactional and seeing nature as nothing more than a commodity or a resource."

LDAHL
6-6-22, 11:36am
Why is it so many people’s idea of Utopia requires taking my stuff and making me do things?

And anyone who talks about “unrestrained capitalism” should consider a subscription to the Wall Street Journal.

early morning
6-6-22, 11:46am
Why is it so many people’s idea of Utopia requires taking my stuff and making me do things?

Why is it so many (wealthy) people's idea of Utopia requires everyone else to accept the status quo, so that THEY can "keep their stuff and not do anything"?

LDAHL
6-6-22, 11:50am
Why is it so many (wealthy) people's idea of Utopia requires everyone else to accept the status quo, so that THEY can "keep their stuff and not do anything"?

I think it has something to do with personal liberty.

catherine
6-6-22, 12:06pm
Why is it so many people’s idea of Utopia requires taking my stuff and making me do things?

And anyone who talks about “unrestrained capitalism” should consider a subscription to the Wall Street Journal.

I have a subscription to the WSJ and read it regularly. It doesn't make me a devotee of unrestrained capitalism.

Alan
6-6-22, 12:07pm
Why is it so many (wealthy) people's idea of Utopia requires everyone else to accept the status quo, so that THEY can "keep their stuff and not do anything"?
Capitalism rewards meritocracy which in turn promotes exceptionalism. Every other economic system rewards mediocracy which promotes unremarkable inferiority. Most people prefer the former.

catherine
6-6-22, 12:13pm
Capitalism rewards meritocracy which in turn promotes exceptionalism. Every other economic system rewards mediocracy which promotes unremarkable inferiority. Most people prefer the former.

Why is meritocracy based on ability to generate wealth? Many teachers and healthcare providers are certainly meritorious. Why do we only value The Almighty Dollar?

Alan
6-6-22, 12:19pm
Why is meritocracy based on ability to generate wealth?I don't think it is, the market simply rewards exceptionalism in various forms, which in turn encourages more exceptionalism. No other economic system seems to do that.

catherine
6-6-22, 12:24pm
Money is a very interesting yardstick for merit, and for where our values are placed.

LDAHL
6-6-22, 12:37pm
I have a subscription to the WSJ and read it regularly. It doesn't make me a devotee of unrestrained capitalism.

A closer reading might reveal that “unrestrained capitalism” does not exist. In many ways, the US business climate is more restrictive than many of our competitors.

catherine
6-6-22, 12:42pm
A closer reading might reveal that “unrestrained capitalism” does not exist. In many ways, the US business climate is more restrictive than many of our competitors.

That's a good start, then. Glad to see we're leaders in that regard. But there's more to be done.

LDAHL
6-6-22, 12:43pm
Money is a very interesting yardstick for merit, and for where our values are placed.

I think market price signals are a better way to allocate resources than government fiat. I don’t see net worth as a yardstick for personal merit. Nor do I see it as an indicator of villainous greed. Money is just money. I am less interested in having “our values” imposed on me than I am deciding my values for myself.

JaneV2.0
6-6-22, 1:00pm
The most exceptional thing about this country is that we are "the richest country in the world," yet in most measures of well-being, we're decidedly mediocre. Obviously, money can't buy humility.

LDAHL
6-6-22, 3:01pm
Obviously, money can't buy humility.

I am less concerned about prideful plutocrats than the arrogance of those who think they can make government do what God would do if God had better credentials.

ApatheticNoMore
6-6-22, 3:10pm
Or what other governments in the world do. So unrealistic.

JaneV2.0
6-6-22, 4:13pm
Why is it so many people’s idea of Utopia requires taking my stuff and making me do things?

And anyone who talks about “unrestrained capitalism” should consider a subscription to the Wall Street Journal.

There is no civilization without taxes and laws.

I don't often read the WSJ, but I appreciate that they're constantly complaining about government regulations. And I admit I find very little in life more boring than financial news and/or opinion.

bae
6-6-22, 4:17pm
There is no civilization without taxes and laws.


Did the Haida have taxes? Or civilization?

Yppej
6-6-22, 4:26pm
Did the Haida have taxes? Or civilization?

Exactly. A great book on this topic is The Dawn of Everything. It blew me away - best book I have read in a long time.

Rogar
6-6-22, 4:27pm
One problem I see with free market capitalism is that it doesn't consider market externalities that are not reflected in the cost of something. A simple example might be a pig farmer who raises and sells his hogs at the going market price, but the price doesn't include any negative effects on a third party. Like the neighbors who have to deal with the smell, the value of their property, or any adverse health effects. There are more extreme examples dealing with pollution, as might be imagined.

LDAHL
6-6-22, 4:35pm
There is no civilization without taxes and laws.

True. But it doesn’t follow from that that the more taxes and laws we impose on ourselves the more civilized we become.

I come down on the end of the spectrum that honors the individual over the collective.

ApatheticNoMore
6-6-22, 4:37pm
One problem I see with free market capitalism is that it doesn't consider market externalities that are not reflected in the cost of something. A simple example might be a pig farmer who raises and sells his hogs at the going market price, but the price doesn't include any negative effects on a third party. Like the neighbors who have to deal with the smell, the value of their property, or any adverse health effects. There are more extreme examples dealing with pollution, as might be imagined.

And then externalities are seen as an exception, rather than being perhaps the essential feature.

Rogar
6-6-22, 4:56pm
Did the Haida have taxes? Or civilization?

I wonder if potlatches are entirely voluntary, or if you can claim a stuffy nose and skip giving away your things.

JaneV2.0
6-6-22, 4:56pm
Did the Haida have taxes? Or civilization?

I don't know, but I imagine raiding and potlatches may have filled in any gaps. Did they have tributes?

I think they would qualify as a civilization, but there are various definitions of the term.

jp1
6-6-22, 11:11pm
A closer reading might reveal that “unrestrained capitalism” does not exist. In many ways, the US business climate is more restrictive than many of our competitors.

But who is being restricted. Joel
Salatin would like to be able to butcher his cows and sell them to people but the restrictions imposed by the FDA make it difficult/impossible for a small farmer like him to do so. And why are the regulations set up that way? Maybe because the bigger farmers want to make it difficult for the little guy so they game the existing system?