View Full Version : What if trump isn’t held accountable?
We started down this path when Nixon wasn’t held to account for watergate. Then Reagan wasn’t held to account for Iran/contra. Then Clinton wasn’t held to account for lying about a consensual blowjob. Then baby bush wasn’t held to account for lying us into a tremendously expensive unsuccessful war of choice.
If trump isn’t held to account for attempting to overturn an election he knew he lost every future president will understand that there is absolutely no thing they could do for which they would have to fear accountability.
Sorry. I would have included Obama, carter, and ford in my list but as far as I’m aware the only ugliness from any of their three administrations is when ford pardoned Nixon.
iris lilies
6-18-22, 8:41am
Not that it is essential to your question, but I sincerely believe that Donald Trump sincerely believes he won the Presidential election. He did not/does not “know he lost.”
If trump isn’t held to account for attempting to overturn an election he knew he lost every future president will understand that there is absolutely no thing they could do for which they would have to fear accountability.
What does accountability look like in your world? Loss of office? Loss of freedom? Loss of life? What would satisfy that persistent itch?
I do think some of those you mentioned were held accountable--Nixon was forced to resign from the Presidency in disgrace. Clinton was impeached for perjury. And usually Presidents aren't taken to task for going to war because declaration of war has to be authorized by Congress, which it was in this case.
Trump is a different animal, but if he is not held accountable, I think it will bolster his appeal. Frankly, the more we make of this, the more appealing he will be--he will become a political martyr. I'm not saying that the Jan 6 committee shouldn't exist, but sometimes these things have a way of backfiring. I worry that Trump will emerge in 2024, and possibly stronger than ever, depending on where we are with the economy at that point. His followers don't care if he's a womanizer, a liar, an ugly person, and even a traitor--they will stand behind him. I have a lot of FB friends who are Trump supporters and they never cease to amaze me.
I think first is to identify what actions he should be held accountable for. If he sincerely believed he won the election and the election results were flawed, is it a legal issue. Or one of low intelligence and or poor judgement resulting in a moral issue. We probably can assume that Donald's ego couldn't handle the loss or that he wanted to hold onto power in some form of autocracy, but it seems to me he has a reasonable legal defense and was following the legal advice of Giuliani, his personal lawyer. Trump may be a slime ball, but my take is that he is smart about not getting caught.
But for that matter if Garland decides to pursue criminal or civil charges it's disturbing to think of the threats of violence and death he and his family will have to endure, not to mention overall civil unrest.
I don't believe for a minute he really thinks he won. Sixty-plus lawsuits and his AG's opinion, along with numerous audits and recounts, should have meant something. Innocent parties don't try to shake down secretaries of state "So look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state." Repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it true--or believable.
He thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants, through fair means or foul. And extortion is nothing new to him--witness his call to President Zelenskyy, in which he held up 400 million in much needed aid suggesting Zelenskyy find some nonexistent dirt on Hunter Biden.
He's been a crook and liar all his life, and though you'd think he'd have to be insane to believe all the non-stop self-aggrandizing he indulges in, I've always resisted the insanity defense in his case.
Why not simply work to reduce the presidency to the more modest chief administrator role it was intended to be rather than the quasi-monarchy complete with courtiers and
mandarins it has become? If we decide to treat presidents more as servants than masters, it will be less attractive to bloated egos than it is today. That would require us to quit looking at the office as a sort of wish-granting genie, and to elect representatives who are less willing to surrender power to the bureaucracy to avoid distasteful decisions.
DC has become too much of a sacred precinct. Why not strip away some of the pretentiousness of our political elites and commissar class?
I don't believe for a minute he really thinks he won either. As a legal issue, can they prove what he believes or doesn't enough to make a case before the courts. Or does that matter.
Why not simply work to reduce the presidency to the more modest chief administrator role it was intended to be rather than the quasi-monarchy complete with courtiers and
mandarins it has become? If we decide to treat presidents more as servants than masters, it will be less attractive to bloated egos than it is today. That would require us to quit looking at the office as a sort of wish-granting genie, and to elect representatives who are less willing to surrender power to the bureaucracy to avoid distasteful decisions.
DC has become too much of a sacred precinct. Why not strip away some of the pretentiousness of our political elites and commissar class?
I can't disagree with that proposal. And while we're at it, could we bring back the talking filibuster, at the very least?
I can't disagree with that proposal. And while we're at it, could we bring back the talking filibuster, at the very least?
I agree with LDAHL, too, on the idea of public servants being public servants.
And how about term limits for Congress while we're at it?
I’m not crazy about term limits for elected officials. If the good people of the fourth district of Iowa want to send the same person to Washington for thirty years, who am I to thwart their will? I would like to see the various voting bodies set limits on how long you can be a committee chair, though.
I do like the idea of term limits for appointed positions. Think of the theatrical hysterics we would have avoided by limiting SCOTUS terms to 18 years, for instance.
I’d also like to see the major federal departments dispersed throughout the country rather than concentrated in the imperial capital. Maybe our mandarins would spend more time among the commoners than crowding Georgetown bars.
I can't disagree with that proposal. And while we're at it, could we bring back the talking filibuster, at the very least?
I'd love to see a present day Jefferson Smith in action. :laff:
Not that it is essential to your question, but I sincerely believe that Donald Trump sincerely believes he won the Presidential election. He did not/does not “know he lost.”
I disagree. When someone calls up the secretary of state for one of the states they lost and says "I NEED YOU TO FIND ME 11,780 VOTES" it's quite clear that he knows he lost that state and that he wants the SOS to lie and cheat on his behalf.
What does accountability look like in your world? Loss of office? Loss of freedom? Loss of life? What would satisfy that persistent itch?
If the laws we have are not sufficient to put him in a spray tan matching jumpsuit for the rest of his life then we need more effective laws. Because it most assuredly should not be legal for someone to come up with a plan involving many many people to overturn the vote results of multiple states and then proceed to carry out that plan including encouraging a violent mob to kill one's vice president.
I do think some of those you mentioned were held accountable--Nixon was forced to resign from the Presidency in disgrace. Clinton was impeached for perjury. And usually Presidents aren't taken to task for going to war because declaration of war has to be authorized by Congress, which it was in this case.
Yes, congress did authorize that war. Based on the lies fed to it by the administration.
If the laws we have are not sufficient to put him in a spray tan matching jumpsuit for the rest of his life then we need more effective laws. Because it most assuredly should not be legal for someone to come up with a plan involving many many people to overturn the vote results of multiple states and then proceed to carry out that plan including encouraging a violent mob to kill one's vice president.
Be careful what you wish for. Creating overly broad incitement laws could well be used against people you like in the future.
I'd love to see a present day Jefferson Smith in action. :laff:
It would create one more reason to not watch CSPAN.
Yes, congress did authorize that war. Based on the lies fed to it by the administration.
I don’t think it was as simple as all that. Most of the world’s intelligence services seemed to think so at the time.
happystuff
6-18-22, 2:50pm
What if trump isn’t held accountable?
Reading but have avoided posting... until now. LOL. The only thing I can add is that, based on my own faith, trump will reap the karma he has and continues to generate.
On the positive side, he is an excellent example of how I do NOT want to behave, live, etc.
If the laws we have are not sufficient to put him in a spray tan matching jumpsuit for the rest of his life then we need more effective laws.
I'm not in favor of creating/modifying laws to punish people you may not like. If successful, you may decide you don't like me later.
frugal-one
6-18-22, 3:49pm
What does accountability look like in your world? Loss of office? Loss of freedom? Loss of life? What would satisfy that persistent itch?
How should traitors be treated? That is the question.
I'm not in favor of creating/modifying laws to punish people you may not like. If successful, you may decide you don't like me later.
I don’t want to create laws to punish trump. I want, if none exist, for laws to be passed that will prevent another attempt by the president and his lawyers and a Supreme Court justice’s wife or whoever might be involved in the next attempt to defy the constitution to overthrow an election. Anyone who thinks that republicans aren’t working to make it succeed next time isn’t paying attention. You only need to look at who they selected in the nevada Secretary of State primary to be concerned. Sadly nevada isn’t an outlier.
iris lilies
6-18-22, 6:24pm
How should traitors be treated? That is the question.
There is a legal framework for that transgression.
There is a legal framework for that transgression.
That legal framework failed on february 13, 2021 when the senate failed to convict him. Now we're stuck trying to fix this within the legal framework designed for common criminals. Maybe it will be up to the task despite this being an uncommon crime but I'm not holding my breath.
iris lilies
6-18-22, 7:59pm
That legal framework failed on february 13, 2021 when the senate failed to convict him. Now we're stuck trying to fix this within the legal framework designed for common criminals. Maybe it will be up to the task despite this being an uncommon crime but I'm not holding my breath.
See post #21 in this thread.
That legal framework failed on february 13, 2021 when the senate failed to convict him. Now we're stuck trying to fix this within the legal framework designed for common criminals. Maybe it will be up to the task despite this being an uncommon crime but I'm not holding my breath.
What makes you think they (Jan 6 Committee) are interested in a prosecutable charge? Chairman Bennie Thompson (D) has said they will not make a criminal referral to the DOJ. This seems to be a strictly political production, possibly designed to inflame you while not actually doing anything.
What makes you think they (Jan 6 Committee) are interested in a prosecutable charge? Chairman Bennie Thompson (D) has said they will not make a criminal referral to the DOJ. This seems to be a strictly political production, possibly designed to inflame you while not actually doing anything.
Or it could be intended to be a roadmap for Merrick Garland to work with. Some of the stuff presented is easier for them to have obtained, such as the testimony from the documentarian that the proud boys were stupid enough to invite along. If it were strictly a political production it seems odd that most of the star witnesses are republicans.
At the end of the day I guess my question to average republicans is "do you think what trump and his cohorts did in the months leading up to and following the election to attempt to remain in power were at all in any way acceptable?" The way you respond on these various threads leads me to believe that you aren't particularly troubled that an American president took the actions that he did.
The way you respond on these various threads leads me to believe that you aren't particularly troubled that an American president took the actions that he did.
I listened to you guys for years talking about GWB stealing an election from the real winner, Al Gore. I guess you de-sensitized my reaction to sore losers.
I listened to you guys for years talking about GWB stealing an election from the real winner, Al Gore. I guess you de-sensitized my reaction to sore losers.
And it's not particularly surprising that one of the hopes of team trump's attempt to steal the election was to get the hacks on the supreme court to actually take up their case to add to the chaos. As we saw with the 2000 election they were perfectly comfortable ignoring other remedies like letting florida sort it's perpetually sorry self out, or letting the election fall to the house for a decision, as the constitution prescribes. The result would have probably been the same but at least we would have set a precedent of actually following the constitution instead of having the supreme court say "this isn't a precedent to be followed again but here's our decision on who should be president."
I listened to you guys for years talking about GWB stealing an election from the real winner, Al Gore. I guess you de-sensitized my reaction to sore losers.
But in any case thanks for confirming that you don't actually give a **** about all the shit trump did to try and steal the election. It's nice, in a creepy sort of way, to have that confirmed.
But in any case thanks for confirming that you don't actually give a **** about all the shit trump did to try and steal the election. It's nice, in a creepy sort of way, to have that confirmed.
I won't take that personally JP, we mature folks just aren't as high strung or judgmental as some of you youngsters. >8)
frugal-one
6-18-22, 9:24pm
I won't take that personally JP, we mature folks just aren't as high strung or judgmental as some of you youngsters. >8)
You may be old but that does not make you smarter.
You may be old but that does not make you smarter.
You're right, thanks for pointing out that completely unrelated revelation, I probably wouldn't have thought of it myself.
I won't take that personally JP, we mature folks just aren't as high strung or judgmental as some of you youngsters. >8)
Ok boomer.
I won't take that personally JP, we mature folks just aren't as high strung or judgmental as some of you youngsters. >8)
I have to admit. I’m confused. You’re either being super cagey (kind of like how trump doesn’t use email because of the evidence trail and likes to flush papers down the toilet) or you aren’t sure how you feel about having a president attempt to overthrow an election. I suppose you might also be hitting the dementia phase of life so many people suffer but you don’t really show symptoms of that beyond this. Or maybe my initial thought was accurate and you just don’t care that we had a president make a serious attempt to overthrow the government. After all you have admitted to voting for the dude twice.
gimmethesimplelife
6-18-22, 10:11pm
Ouch. It seems that my presence is not required for controversy here. Interesting as given that I'm not part of this controversy, I can see how others might perceive me when I get riled up.
Rob
Ouch. It seems that my presence is not required for controversy here. Interesting as given that I'm not part of this controversy, I can see how others might perceive me when I get riled up.
Rob
At least no one perceives you to be the old man equivalent of Sarah huckabee with her ability to not give a straight answer.
At least no one perceives you to be the old man equivalent of Sarah huckabee with her ability to not give a straight answer.I don't know how to please you JP other than to reiterate that I expect sore losers to be sore losers and respect the integrity of our systems and safeguards enough to believe that those sore losers will never win. Though I must admit I do get a kick out of watching yesterday's sore losers get all worked up about today's sore losers. That's entertaining.
frugal-one
6-18-22, 10:58pm
You're right, thanks for pointing out that completely unrelated revelation, I probably wouldn't have thought of it myself.
Relevant in that you were trying to be condescending and it didn’t hit the mark.
frugal-one
6-18-22, 11:00pm
I don't know how to please you JP other than to reiterate that I expect sore losers to be sore losers and respect the integrity of our systems and safeguards enough to believe that those sore losers will never win. Though I must admit I do get a kick out of watching yesterday's sore losers get all worked up about today's sore losers. That's entertaining.
You are entertained by trump… that is sick.
You are entertained by trump… that is sick.
I hope this doesn't come off as condescending but I don't think you're following my comments properly. Some later comments build upon earlier ones, expecting readers to follow the entire thread. That's how conversations generally flow. It's JP that I find entertaining, I admire smart people.
I hope this doesn't come off as condescending but I don't think you're following my comments properly. Some later comments build upon earlier ones, expecting readers to follow the entire thread. That's how conversations generally flow. It's JP that I find entertaining, I admire smart people.
Sarah huckabee would be proud. You have a whole new career ahead of you.
Apparently the texas Republican Party didn’t get the memo that in the reality based world trump lost. Or maybe it’s that republicans plan to cheat and steal better next time around. Otherwise why would they formally adopt as part of their platform that biden was not legitimately elected?
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiECVKnIkN3IlwaLmYUF_PavAqFwgEKg4IACoGCAow28c3MK zqBzD-0ZsD?uo=CAUiANIBAA&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
frugal-one
6-19-22, 8:05am
[QUOTE=Alan;409741]I hope this doesn't come off as condescending but I don't think you're following my comments properly. Some later comments build upon earlier ones, expecting readers to follow the entire thread. That's how conversations generally flow. ]
I knew what you meant. You obviously don’t get my innuendo. And yes, you have a propensity for condescending behavior...
(Most) Republicans couldn't care less about technicalities like the truth or the rule of law; it's who chooses federal judges that counts.
[QUOTE=Alan;409741]I hope this doesn't come off as condescending but I don't think you're following my comments properly. Some later comments build upon earlier ones, expecting readers to follow the entire thread. That's how conversations generally flow. ]
I knew what you meant. You obviously don’t get my innuendo. And yes, you have a propensity for condescending behavior...
It may not be that he’s condescending. It’s simply that he isn’t capable or interested in considering viewpoints of people who have different ones from his. He’d rather explain to them why they are mistaken.
It may not be that he’s condescending. It’s simply that he isn’t capable or interested in considering viewpoints of people who have different ones from his. He’d rather explain to them why they are mistaken.
It's more like just another perspective for review. I usually like hearing those, maybe others don't.
It's more like just another perspective for review. I usually like hearing those, maybe others don't.
Yeah, so you can hear them and discount them as irrelevant.
iris lilies
6-19-22, 8:10pm
Yeah, so you can hear them and discount them as irrelevant.
Just curious, are any of Alan’s viewpoints what you consider relevant? I mean ones that diverge from your own?
Just curious, are any of Alan’s viewpoints what you consider relevant? I mean ones that diverge from your own?
Absolutely. When he talks about his very much loved grandson I pay attention. And am glad that he was not aborted because he wound up in a loving family. That may not change my opinion on whether women should be the deciders regarding their own body because frankly many kids are not so lucky but I would certainly never suggest to Alan that his daughter should have aborted his grandson.
Just curious, are any of Alan’s viewpoints what you consider relevant? I mean ones that diverge from your own?
And honestly I listen to your opinions and thoughts too. I’ve spent 13 years watching Sam Francisco’s leadership not solve any of the problems the city faces. I’ve come to a different conclusion than you but I respect your decision that the democrats are the problem as valid. My conclusion is that the problem with homeless people has more to do with how effing expensive it is to live here, the fact that there are enough services to make being homeless here viable and that this is one of a relatively few places in the country that actually try to help the homeless. Will they succeed. Absolutely not. Will the homeless industrial complex keep working to make sure they get more and more money to ‘deal’ with the problem? Absolutely. I don’t know what the solution is but I don’t hear any republicans offering one, which is where we differ. I also suspect that any real solution will have to be undertaken in a much larger scale than just one city.
iris lilies
6-19-22, 11:38pm
Absolutely. When he talks about his very much loved grandson I pay attention. And am glad that he was not aborted because he wound up in a loving family. That may not change my opinion on whether women should be the deciders regarding their own body because frankly many kids are not so lucky but I would certainly never suggest to Alan that his daughter should have aborted his grandson.
This analogy is…not good.
Let’s leave personal life choices out of it. What viewpoints about broad societal issues that differ from yours do you respect, ones Alan has put forth?
And honestly I listen to your opinions and thoughts too. I’ve spent 13 years watching Sam Francisco’s leadership not solve any of the problems the city faces. I’ve come to a different conclusion than you but I respect your decision that the democrats are the problem as valid. My conclusion is that the problem with homeless people has more to do with how effing expensive it is to live here, the fact that there are enough services to make being homeless here viable and that this is one of a relatively few places in the country that actually try to help the homeless. Will they succeed. Absolutely not. Will the homeless industrial complex keep working to make sure they get more and more money to ‘deal’ with the problem? Absolutely. I don’t know what the solution is but I don’t hear any republicans offering one, which is where we differ. I also suspect that any real solution will have to be undertaken in a much larger scale than just one city.
SF has taken a few steps in the right direction. They dumped a couple of their more insanely woke school board members and their prosecutor who viewed refusing to prosecute certain crimes as a benign form of social engineering. As far as being one of the few places trying to help, I think you’re being unfair to the country at large. A lot of places, for instance, haven’t zoned low income housing out of existence.
catherine
6-20-22, 10:19am
I think you’re being unfair to the country at large. A lot of places, for instance, haven’t zoned low income housing out of existence. Low-income housing isn't the same as "no-income housing". Even "affordable housing" often costs more than an indigent person is able to pay. I've been researching this on behalf of my BIL, and I find that "affordable housing" is $1000 a month. If you make minimum a wage, or if you are unemployable, or you also need a car to get to work, $1k is out of reach.
Also, homeless solutions don't take into account the mental illnesses/addiction that are frequently the cause of homelessness. And the fact that shelters don't cut it. Burlington had a de facto tent community down by the lake. They were out of sight, and pretty much law-abiding, but the City just disbanded it. I'm not sure what they were planning to do with the residents, but I'm guessing it wasn't a better solution for them. The surrounding community was pretty tolerant, but I think there were objectives to trash strewn around and fires at night.
I don't believe homelessness is an intractable problem. The Housing First program has been shown to work where it's been tried. https://endhomelessness.org/resource/housing-first/
Seven Standards of DESC’s Housing First Approach
Move people into housing directly from streets and shelters without preconditions of treatment acceptance or compliance.
The provider is obligated to bring robust support services to the housing. These services are predicated on assertive engagement, not coercion.
Continued tenancy is not dependent on participation in services.
Units are targeted to most disabled and vulnerable homeless members of the community.
Embraces harm reduction approach to addictions rather than mandating abstinence. At the same time, the provider must be prepared to support resident commitments to recovery.
Residents must have leases and tenant protections under the law.
Can be implemented as either a project-based or scattered site model.
frugal-one
6-20-22, 4:11pm
[QUOTE=frugal-one;409753]
It may not be that he’s condescending. It’s simply that he isn’t capable or interested in considering viewpoints of people who have different ones from his. He’d rather explain to them why they are mistaken.
I don't agree. Look at the things I have bolded ... it is not a matter of opinion or viewpoint.
This analogy is…not good.
Let’s leave personal life choices out of it. What viewpoints about broad societal issues that differ from yours do you respect, ones Alan has put forth?
Choosing to abort or not abort a likely special needs kid is indeed a personal choice. AS IS EVERY SINGLE ABORTION. I guess not understanding that is why republicans are cool with telling women what to do with their bodies.
iris lilies
6-20-22, 11:09pm
Choosing to abort or not abort a likely special needs kid is indeed a personal choice. AS IS EVERY SINGLE ABORTION. I guess not understanding that is why republicans are cool with telling women what to do with their bodies.
Clearly you didn’t understand what I meant. I meant let’s leave the personal choices of Alan, his relative, and you for that matter out of this discussion. You were going to do whatever you’re gonna do so be it, never mind.
Clearly you didn’t understand what I meant. I meant let’s leave the personal choices of Alan, his relative, and you for that matter out of this discussion. You were going to do whatever you’re gonna do so be it, never mind.
Do you honestly think that people choosing to get or not get abortions is strictly a ‘broad societal issue’???
iris lilies
6-21-22, 7:33am
Do you honestly think that people choosing to get or not get abortions is strictly a ‘broad societal issue’???
Sure. but you made the discussion personal To a level that is unacceptable.
It may not be that he’s condescending. It’s simply that he isn’t capable or interested in considering viewpoints of people who have different ones from his. From my perspective, it's just the opposite.
An interesting note, I noticed years ago that whenever I started a thread in this forum there was a certain demographic that immediately took offense and started taking personal shots at me, that's when I decided to let others bring up subjects and I'd only comment if I thought I could provide a different viewpoint or prompt others to look more closely at whatever the subject might be. It's now been 9 years since I started my last thread here, and I'm beginning to think many of you who do start all these threads aren't really interested in discussions or debates unless they validate your views. I think that's when discussion dies.
early morning
6-21-22, 9:53am
In a true discussion in which people are actually LISTENING and OPEN to other points of view, there is generally an acknowledgement of understanding of opposing points, sometimes agreement within the disagreement. I don't agree with IL that JP1's bringing Alan's grandson into a discussion is unacceptably personal. I read it as JP understanding that although he does not agree with Alan's view on abortion, he understands that Alan is deeply bothered by the fact of his daughter being encouraged to abort, and that his grandson, who was NOT aborted, is a wonderful person who brings much joy to the family. JP, in my reading (YMMV, of course!) is saying he understands Alan's resentment, and concern that this happens to others, and thus has a bit more understanding of Alan's POV on abortion, at least in this instance. Doesn't change JP's overall conclusion, but again, most discussion does not change people's minds in one go! And Alan was not compelled to share his grandson's story. I for one am glad he did - different perspectives are good to have, after all - as Alan himself says. I also don't agree with Alan's views on many things, but I am glad he is here to present them.
rosarugosa
6-21-22, 10:57am
In a true discussion in which people are actually LISTENING and OPEN to other points of view, there is generally an acknowledgement of understanding of opposing points, sometimes agreement within the disagreement. I don't agree with IL that JP1's bringing Alan's grandson into a discussion is unacceptably personal. I read it as JP understanding that although he does not agree with Alan's view on abortion, he understands that Alan is deeply bothered by the fact of his daughter being encouraged to abort, and that his grandson, who was NOT aborted, is a wonderful person who brings much joy to the family. JP, in my reading (YMMV, of course!) is saying he understands Alan's resentment, and concern that this happens to others, and thus has a bit more understanding of Alan's POV on abortion, at least in this instance. Doesn't change JP's overall conclusion, but again, most discussion does not change people's minds in one go! And Alan was not compelled to share his grandson's story. I for one am glad he did - different perspectives are good to have, after all - as Alan himself says. I also don't agree with Alan's views on many things, but I am glad he is here to present them.
Very well said, Early. I took it the same way.
iris lilies
6-21-22, 6:27pm
In a true discussion in which people are actually LISTENING and OPEN to other points of view, there is generally an acknowledgement of understanding of opposing points, sometimes agreement within the disagreement. I don't agree with IL that JP1's bringing Alan's grandson into a discussion is unacceptably personal. I read it as JP understanding that although he does not agree with Alan's view on abortion, he understands that Alan is deeply bothered by the fact of his daughter being encouraged to abort, and that his grandson, who was NOT aborted, is a wonderful person who brings much joy to the family. JP, in my reading (YMMV, of course!) is saying he understands Alan's resentment, and concern that this happens to others, and thus has a bit more understanding of Alan's POV on abortion, at least in this instance. Doesn't change JP's overall conclusion, but again, most discussion does not change people's minds in one go! And Alan was not compelled to share his grandson's story. I for one am glad he did - different perspectives are good to have, after all - as Alan himself says. I also don't agree with Alan's views on many things, but I am glad he is here to present them.
That view may be ok, dunno. Perhaps I am seeing it wrongly.
At any rate, terminating a pregnancy is a sensitive and purely personal matter, and it should continue to be.
Sure. but you made the discussion personal To a level that is unacceptable.
Sorry. I guess you were expecting me to suddenly have some damn federalist society epiphany and say ‘oh yes, the radical Supreme Court is the smartest court ever and I was wrong all along!!!’ That didn’t happen. But if your side isn’t willing to accept baby steps from someone like me then there will not be any ‘discussion’. We’ll simply keep yelling at each other to absolutely no effect.
And how on earth is it bad that I spoke positively about Alan’s family. My point, which I doubt you will ever get, just as you choose not to get any of my points, was that if more families were like Alan’s I’d be a lot less in favor of abortion on demand.
In a true discussion in which people are actually LISTENING and OPEN to other points of view, there is generally an acknowledgement of understanding of opposing points, sometimes agreement within the disagreement. I don't agree with IL that JP1's bringing Alan's grandson into a discussion is unacceptably personal. I read it as JP understanding that although he does not agree with Alan's view on abortion, he understands that Alan is deeply bothered by the fact of his daughter being encouraged to abort, and that his grandson, who was NOT aborted, is a wonderful person who brings much joy to the family. JP, in my reading (YMMV, of course!) is saying he understands Alan's resentment, and concern that this happens to others, and thus has a bit more understanding of Alan's POV on abortion, at least in this instance. Doesn't change JP's overall conclusion, but again, most discussion does not change people's minds in one go! And Alan was not compelled to share his grandson's story. I for one am glad he did - different perspectives are good to have, after all - as Alan himself says. I also don't agree with Alan's views on many things, but I am glad he is here to present them.
Thank you. You understood the point of my post perfectly.
At any rate, terminating a pregnancy is a sensitive and purely personal matter, and it should continue to be.
So are you saying that you don’t think the decision of whether or not to have an abortion should be made by a woman and her state legislature?
iris lilies
6-21-22, 11:48pm
Sorry. I guess you were expecting me to suddenly have some damn federalist society epiphany and say ‘oh yes, the radical Supreme Court is the smartest court ever and I was wrong all along!!!’ That didn’t happen. But if your side isn’t willing to accept baby steps from someone like me then there will not be any ‘discussion’. We’ll simply keep yelling at each other to absolutely no effect.
And how on earth is it bad that I spoke positively about Alan’s family. My point, which I doubt you will ever get, just as you choose not to get any of my points, was that if more families were like Alan’s I’d be a lot less in favor of abortion on demand.
JP, I can’t imagine telling anyone they should have an abortion. It’s hard to believe anyone here including you would do that in any situation, even if we might privately think someone “should “have an abortion as well as us thinking were we in that same situation, we would.
I guess that’s what I was thinking but it doesn’t matter at this point, I think you’re gonna continue to shout at me and wave your arms about so OK. You win.
…..backing away….
JP, I can’t imagine telling anyone they should have an abortion. It’s hard to believe anyone here including you would do that in any situation, even if we might privately think someone “should “have an abortion as well as us thinking were we in that same situation, we would.
I guess that’s what I was thinking but it doesn’t matter at this point, I think you’re gonna continue to shout at me and wave your arms about so OK. You win.
…..backing away….
I can’t imagine having a pregnant friend come to me for advice and not have enough respect for them to answer honestly whether I think they should abort the fetus. If they come to me for advice I will offer my honest opinion. If their family is like Alan’s it may be different than it would be if they have no support network. But sure, I’m the ****ing dick that mentioned Alan’s family in my post.
I watched the hearings yesterday and urge everyone to watch them tomorrow.
I hope that Trump is prosecuted at the end of this process.
I also wish we could have a national holiday named after the three women of the Moss family, Shay, her mother, and her grandmother.
I can’t imagine having a pregnant friend come to me for advice and not have enough respect for them to answer honestly whether I think they should abort the fetus. If they come to me for advice I will offer my honest opinion. If their family is like Alan’s it may be different than it would be if they have no support network. But sure, I’m the ****ing dick that mentioned Alan’s family in my post.
I had a close family member tell me that I should abort, and my own pragmatic nature was definitely telling me I should. In the end, no one's advice mattered. I made my own decision, endured eye rolls as well my loved ones' concerns for my mental and physical health. If you are asked by a pregnant friend and family member for advice, you should simply refer the pregnant friend to the inner voices of their own heart and then refrain from giving any other well-meaning advice.
So are you saying that you don’t think the decision of whether or not to have an abortion should be made by a woman and her state legislature?
Or a woman and some religious order.
And really--What the hell is "abortion on demand?" other than a hoary shibboleth.
I think that's true, Jane. I looked up a chart on abortion numbers around the world and I think we need to look at countries with lower rates, like Finland and Switzerland, which has 7 per 1000 pregnancies. Why can't we emulate their social policies and lower our rates?
I watched the hearings yesterday and urge everyone to watch them tomorrow.
I hope that Trump is prosecuted at the end of this process.
I also wish we could have a national holiday named after the three women of the Moss family, Shay, her mother, and her grandmother.
How is it we now have an army of MAGA thugs that can be deployed at the whim of the Dear Leader to harass and threaten anyone who dares to "transgress?" And apparently, they do so with complete impunity.
Those women, who were just doing their duty as citizens, should be compensated handsomely for the hell they went through--and are still going through--at Trump's tiny hands.
And how on earth is it bad that I spoke positively about Alan’s family. My point, which I doubt you will ever get, just as you choose not to get any of my points, was that if more families were like Alan’s I’d be a lot less in favor of abortion on demand.
Thank you for that, I do sincerely appreciate this but still have one thought about something no one ever mentions when we talk about abortion. The following pics are of my youngest grandson at various stages of life, he is an example of the specific thing missing in every abstract abortion discussion.
This is him at about 4 years as he helped with dinner:
https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/16836218_10209058242879359_8449354003412516891_o.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=0d6RDaYQ-RoAX_kRUPd&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8aJx5jpfAzUX6k7XQEmboJFsbD6v_1168l0G0vALRH iQ&oe=62D87334
This is him with his older, special needs brother and I having ice cream as we wait for Old Faithful's next scheduled eruption time at Yellowstone:
https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10400391_1110609291559_5948614_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=LFy4NsauFmMAX_0AH07&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9U45KaqmnUrvpq9_G5YVrugc6NRb3SZiIg7a3i_GKC dA&oe=62D82566
This is him having a silly string battle with his brother in my back yard.
https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/603207_4250609189594_368431171_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=dhXgy17Wd5sAX-P2D0D&_nc_oc=AQkoDStXbjSM3-vjg6oREwKFo9bEMrKdMpSU4PQ5Bv8lf_8b6ccKElDKCYoflpWQ HrMuFuAkvv6veLBeGObOBXJC&tn=o8lxsydBNXziJm-X&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9opWKZBVc8jGfmXw-cofWWUdAaXj5HDaaQ1ZmyKEnp5A&oe=62D866DE
And this is him a few years ago on his 18th birthday (he's 20 now)
https://scontent.fluk1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/87243330_10217391270279836_30142681778749440_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=icaKdoYSqvkAX8OOWQR&_nc_ht=scontent.fluk1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_paV8DYHxY7ti4FPCfZkK_Bf46oAfRQ3B9oCVP6HCX Cw&oe=62DA282B
His name is Joe and his ongoing life was only possible because my daughter refused to take the advice of 2 different medical professionals and a large part of our society's refusal to see him as a person. He is a living example of the abortion debate that no one wants to talk about, but we should.
Now, maybe we can get back on topic?
"The following pics are of my youngest grandson at various stages of life, he is an example of the specific thing missing in every abstract abortion discussion."
He's obviously a valued member of your family, but I don't see the point of introducing anecdotal arguments into the discussion. Every woman has her own reasons and agency.
"The following pics are of my youngest grandson at various stages of life, he is an example of the specific thing missing in every abstract abortion discussion."
He's obviously a valued member of your family, but I don't see the point of introducing anecdotal arguments into the discussion. Every woman has her own reasons and agency.Just providing a face for the other person involved in the debate, the one that no one is willing to discuss.
Just providing a face for the other person involved in the debate, the one that no one is willing to discuss.
You can discuss the nature of embryos and fetuses all you like, but really, it's only the business of the woman involved. That shouldn't be hard to grasp.
catherine
6-22-22, 12:00pm
You can discuss the nature of embryos and fetuses all you like, but really, it's only the business of the woman involved. That shouldn't be hard to grasp.
Plus, only love is the secret ingredient in happy outcomes like your family's (and mine) and unfortunately the government can mandate all the laws they want with regard to abortion, but it can't mandate love.
Plus, only love is the secret ingredient in happy outcomes like your family's (and mine) and unfortunately the government can mandate all the laws they want with regard to abortion, but it can't mandate love.
The financial considerations alone for a family with few means, marginal jobs, existing children, etc. comprise another angle that is rarely discussed. Again, it's nobody's business but that of the woman involved, and it certainly shouldn't be for us to decide from our vantage up here on a high horse.
ApatheticNoMore
6-22-22, 12:29pm
And abortions are going to be mostly unwanted kids by definition. I mean I don't think you can equate someone who wants to bring a kid into the world even if some others whose concern it isn't, really don't want them to, with someone who doesn't. They are really two incomparable things. And no someone's desire to be a grandparent definitely doesn't trump that, they should get a pet.
ApatheticNoMore
6-22-22, 12:36pm
The financial considerations alone for a family with few means, marginal jobs, existing children, etc. comprise another angle that is rarely discussed. Again, it's nobody's business but that of the woman involved, and it certainly shouldn't be for us to decide from our vantage up here on a high horse.
there was a story here about a homeless woman with I don't know 12 kids all living homeless or something and it was like for heavens sake stop having kids and bringing them into homeless (I know people with kids can fall homeless, but this was clearly not what was happening there).
Sometimes I fear that the reason that they may not seek to hold Trump accountable is because if they fail in a prosecution, then what happens next? I would never have thought after the events of Jan 6, that people witnessed that as they were happening on television, that the Republicans in the state of Texas would vote for a platform asserting that the election was illegitimate. The horrors grow.
The horrors do indeed grow. I've been watching the January 6 hearings and my heart breaks for those who risked their physical and political lives to stand up to Trump, Eastman, Giuliani, et al. The lady who testified yesterday about the hell she and her mother went through just for volunteering as poll workers - I can't imagine.
frugal-one
6-22-22, 4:55pm
And, now, people are saying they will vote GOP no matter what. It is unfathomable.
And, now, people are saying they will vote GOP no matter what. It is unfathomable.
Sticking it to the libs, writ large.
gimmethesimplelife
6-23-22, 10:32am
I'm afraid he won't be held accountable - I no longer have the basic faith/trust in the United States to believe he will be. This is not a free enough country from corruption for it to even be possible for him to be held accountable.
I no longer even in my wildest dreams hope for justice here. Keep two bags packed - every day more Americans are waking up to.the truth I just posted.
The Chinese proverb is indeed true - we do live in interesting times. Keep the bags packed - January 6th is not being addressed realistically and that which caused January 6th has not/is not going away.
Rob
"January 6th is not being addressed realistically and that which caused January 6th has not/is not going away."
Agreed.
gimmethesimplelife
6-23-22, 11:09am
"January 6th is not being addressed realistically and that which caused January 6th has not/is not going away."
Agreed.Thank You, Tybee. I'm glad I'm not the only one here who sees this.
Rob
I'm afraid he won't be held accountable - I no longer have the basic faith/trust in the United States to believe he will be. This is not a free enough country from corruption for it to even be possible for him to be held accountable.
I no longer even in my wildest dreams hope for justice here. Keep two bags packed - every day more Americans are waking up to.the truth I just posted.
The Chinese proverb is indeed true - we do live in interesting times. Keep the bags packed - January 6th is not being addressed realistically and that which caused January 6th has not/is not going away.
Rob
What would you consider to be realistic?
Keep two bags packed - every day more Americans are waking up to.the truth I just posted.
The Chinese proverb is indeed true - we do live in interesting times. Keep the bags packed ...
"Keeping two bags packed" isn't a plan.
Keeping enough assets overseas, having local knowledge of some overseas destinations, speaking the language, perhaps already owning a home there, that's a plan. You can leave with the clothes on your back, or simply not return from a trip, and no worries.
Having the foresight to leave in time is also crucial, if leaving is your plan.
frugal-one
6-23-22, 9:29pm
"Keeping two bags packed" isn't a plan.
Keeping enough assets overseas, having local knowledge of some overseas destinations, speaking the language, perhaps already owning a home there, that's a plan. You can leave with the clothes on your back, or simply not return from a trip, and no worries.
Having the foresight to leave in time is also crucial, if leaving is your plan.
Question is, how much is enough? (not a snark, asking?) I checked into Canada while trump was in office. We have friends that considered "grandfathering" us. With the news today about guns, it may be time? It is now the "wild west" and will only get more so. We are getting our house ready to sell. I think your "plan" has merit.
With the news today about guns, it may be time? It is now the "wild west" and will only get more so. We are getting our house ready to sell.
Well, the "news today about guns" isn't especially hellish. 41 of the 50 states are already shall-issue or no-issue-needed...
It’s fascinating to me how many people asked for pardons right after J6. It’s almost as if they realized that they had acted traitorously. Considering how close they were to the ‘action’ I imagine they probably weren’t wrong in making the request.
iris lilies
6-24-22, 8:15am
Question is, how much is enough? (not a snark, asking?) I checked into Canada while trump was in office. We have friends that considered "grandfathering" us. With the news today about guns, it may be time? It is now the "wild west" and will only get more so. We are getting our house ready to sell. I think your "plan" has merit.
Tell me how that “grandfathering” works, for people your age which is also around my age.
note: Canada does not welcome senior citizens who need healthcare.
frugal-one
6-24-22, 3:31pm
Tell me how that “grandfathering” works, for people your age which is also around my age.
note: Canada does not welcome senior citizens who need healthcare.
I don't know exactly. They offered, and at the time, we declined. I will also check but think my healthcare may not be an issue???? First, need to sell the house.
iris lilies
6-24-22, 3:47pm
I don't know exactly. They offered, and at the time, we declined. I will also check but think my healthcare may not be an issue???? First, need to sell the house.
Why wouldn’t your “healthcare” be an issue? You ARE talking about becoming permanent residents/citizens, right? Canada does not want old people. That is, unless you bring in a crap ton of funds, I mean really a lot, then you can (or could at one time anyway) emigrate there as a “investor class” emigrant. Although that may have had age restrictions as well.
Think you have no idea of the reality of Canada accepting you as a citizen. Selling your house is the least of it.
Many many people fling about fleeing overseas but I think Bae is about the only one here who has realistic ideas about it.
Twenty five years ago we looked into going to Canada, but they definitely did not want older people or sick people. Period. Not sure about the investing class thing. Ireland looked good from that standpoint.
I could not leave my aging parents or my children then. Don't think Canada wants us now.
frugal-one
6-24-22, 4:47pm
Why wouldn’t your “healthcare” be an issue? You ARE talking about becoming permanent residents/citizens, right? Canada does not want old people. That is, unless you bring in a crap ton of funds, I mean really a lot, then you can (or could at one time anyway) emigrate there as a “investor class” emigrant. Although that may have had age restrictions as well.
Think you have no idea of the reality of Canada accepting you as a citizen. Selling your house is the least of it.
Many many people fling about fleeing overseas but I think Bae is about the only one here who has realistic ideas about it.
The FIRST step of the process is to get rid of the house. I am not going into my healthcare or financial situation. I have the acuity and means to investigate the possibilities.
iris lilies
6-24-22, 5:24pm
The FIRST step of the process is to get rid of the house. I am not going into my healthcare or financial situation. I have the acuity and means to investigate the possibilities.
There is some kind of blood relation program, or at least there was, back when I was looking at Canadian immigration programs. Perhaps that was what your Candadian contact meant.
When I looked now under investor immigration and other programs, it looked like it varies a lot by which province you want to go to. Interesting.
When I looked now under investor immigration and other programs, it looked like it varies a lot by which province you want to go to. Interesting.
Quebec offers the sweetest deal of the Canadian provinces, last time I looked.
Quebec offers the sweetest deal of the Canadian provinces, last time I looked.
One of my favorite shows on HGTV is Love It or List It
So, bae, I'm curious... you've expressed that you dislike to some degree the two parties we have, but I'm surprised that you're talking about "packing two suitcases". Are you saying that because you want to live near your daughter, or would you leave the States for political reasons? And if for political reasons, what would America have to do to get you to "love it" rather than "list it". (Same question for anyone like Rob or frugal-one who is interested in emigrating and cares to answer)
There is some kind of blood relation program, or at least there was, back when I was looking at Canadian immigration programs. Perhaps that was what your Candadian contact meant.
A good friend of mine moved to Canada last week to be near her grandchildren. Apparently Canada has some sort of grandparent-visa program that makes it pretty easy for her.
‘They’re not here to hurt me. Let them in.’ Spoken like someone who realized that he needed as much ‘wild’ as possible if his coup was going to succeed.
Teacher Terry
7-9-22, 6:31pm
A good friend of mine and her kids and spouses are looking into obtaining citizenship in Italy. They have hired a Italian law firm who thinks they have a decent case. It’s based on my friend’s parents being citizens before coming to the US. My DIL kept her Polish citizenship when she became one here. However, her standard of living is better here even though she can’t work in her profession here since we don’t recognize her degree.
I love visiting other countries but I can’t imagine trying to assimilate into one especially if you need to learn a new language. When I was in Ireland once I got sick and couldn’t finish the tour I watched the news. They have all the same problems that we have here.
So, now we learn that the secret service deleted their text messages from January 5th and 6th. After being told to preserve them. I wonder 1) what they felt the need to hide, and 2) will the person (people) responsible for doing this be held accountable, and 3) has the J6 committee gotten access to the messages elsewhere?
https://theintercept.com/2022/07/14/jan-6-texts-deleted-secret-service/
So, now we learn that the secret service deleted their text messages from January 5th and 6th. After being told to preserve them. I wonder 1) what they felt the need to hide, and 2) will the person (people) responsible for doing this be held accountable, and 3) has the J6 committee gotten access to the messages elsewhere?
https://theintercept.com/2022/07/14/jan-6-texts-deleted-secret-service/
That pretty much left me speechless. Nothing should surprise me, but that did.
That was a very good article. Thank you for that. Had not put together what Pence was saying. Absolutely chilling.
What if these republican elections officials aren't held accountable for following the law. If they can get away with the BS this time without punishment expect to see republicans across the country doing similar.
https://www.democracydocket.com/news/a-constitutional-crisis-is-brewing-in-pennsylvania/
That is what I am afraid of. Hoping everyone watches the hearings tonight.
Any Republican politician that can’t admit publicly that trump LOST the damn election doesn’t deserve to be voted for in any future election. Plain and simple. And anyone that continues to vote for them is as bad as the traitors that tried to overthrow the government on J6 at the end of trump’s months long attempted coup.
I apologize if this has been mentioned prior in this thread (I haven't read through it all), but you might be interested in subscribing to emails from Heather Cox Richardson. She also posts on Facebook. She's a U.S. historian and professor (I believe) and provides an almost daily summary of what happened in US politics the day before. For example, in yesterday's, she talks about what would happen if Trump is re-elected and follows through on a plan to "purge" the government bureaucracy of anyone who is not a 100% loyalist.
iris lilies
7-25-22, 2:41pm
I apologize if this has been mentioned prior in this thread (I haven't read through it all), but you might be interested in subscribing to emails from Heather Cox Richardson. She also posts on Facebook. She's a U.S. historian and professor (I believe) and provides an almost daily summary of what happened in US politics the day before. For example, in yesterday's, she talks about what would happen if Trump is re-elected and follows through on a plan to "purge" the government bureaucracy of anyone who is not a 100% loyalist.
It seems to me that most presidents like to have a “their “people in high appointed offices since that is why appointments exist. But whatever.
Does she talk about what happens if the Democratic Party refuses to put up a viable candidate and sleepy, tired, increasingly incompetent Joe Biden runs again? Because Trump will spank him at the polls.
what *IS* happening with getting a decent candidate on board? Are you all happy with Kamela as the White House candidate?
It seems to me that most presidents like to have a “their “people in high appointed offices since that is why appointments exist. But whatever.
There's quite a difference between "high appointed offices" and the bulk of the non-partisan civil service corps. And has been since 1883...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendleton_Civil_Service_Reform_Act
I don't mind Joe Biden; he's at least engaged and aware of how our government works--or is supposed to. And he appears to be reasonably honest--compared to most Republicans, anyway. But I'm with those who clamor for a new generation to take over.
Biden's greatest strength is that he beat Trump in the election and saved us from four more years. I can't tell if he's senile or just gives the impression, but he really seems frail.
I see where the WSJ editorial board hammered Trump pretty hard for his actions on Jan. 6. I don't subscribe, but it's pretty easy to find another source for the wording. I think the core of it in clear wording was that he failed to uphold the constitution. I would like to think their commentary carries some weight with some of Trump's conservatives since they seem to be a little right of center in their viewpoints.
President Biden is the same age I am, and he looks like an Olympian next to me. He's certainly more fit than Trump.
I’d be happy with a mandatory retirement age for elected and appointed governmental officials.
I watched Bernie on one of the Sunday talk shows. He didn't appear to have aged a bit over the last couple of years: ). Al Gore was also on. I think he communicates well, which I've missed from the last couple of presidents, as an opinion. He's 74. He said he is a "recovering politician" and will never run again.
iris lilies
7-25-22, 6:45pm
So the chorus of oldsters here are fine with Daddy Joe again.
ack.
So the chorus of oldsters here are fine with Daddy Joe again.
ack.
Not really and I'm no fan of Harris either. Her speeches come out of some woke manual. Yet, the differences between them and Trump are an orders of magnitude improvement. It's not always an issue of age, as in RBG. I'd go for a required mental competency, as I can think of a few younger members of congress that could be in question, too.
So the chorus of oldsters here are fine with Daddy Joe again.
ack.
I guess I'm singing off-key again.
Teacher Terry
7-25-22, 8:05pm
I would like younger candidates from both parties.
I see where the WSJ editorial board hammered Trump pretty hard for his actions on Jan. 6. I don't subscribe, but it's pretty easy to find another source for the wording. I think the core of it in clear wording was that he failed to uphold the constitution. I would like to think their commentary carries some weight with some of Trump's conservatives since they seem to be a little right of center in their viewpoints.
I haven’t read either but supposedly the NY Post also hammered trump pretty hard this weekend. I guess Rupert Murdoch has decided that he’s done with the guy.
So the chorus of oldsters here are fine with Daddy Joe again.
ack.
I thought the chorus of oldsters here noted they would welcome younger candidates in general, but Joe Biden is leagues better than any Republican who could be a viable contender, so I'll vote for the Democratic candidate.
I thought the chorus of oldsters here noted they would welcome younger candidates in general, but Joe Biden is leagues better than any Republican who could be a viable contender, so I'll vote for the Democratic candidate.
Considering that the next most likely candidate on the Republican side is trump v 2.0 the competent edition, Ron desantis, the only logical choice is whoever the democratic choice is.
At this point, Dick Nixon would look like a reasonable Republican choice.
Matt Gaetz is busy publicly mocking pro-choice demonstrators and Josh Hawley is once again reminding us all that he is not a wimp--he is, in fact, the very picture of a manly man. (Even if he does run like a little girl.)
iris lilies
7-25-22, 11:32pm
Considering that the next most likely candidate on the Republican side is trump v 2.0 the competent edition, Ron desantis, the only logical choice is whoever the democratic choice is.
I pray to a god I dont believe in that
deSantis is the Republican nominee.
I pray to a god I dont believe in that
deSantis is the Republican nominee.
You want that awful vaguely human desantis as the nominee??? Why?
iris lilies
7-26-22, 9:50am
You want that awful vaguely human desantis as the nominee??? Why?
He has made many rational decisions as governor. The recent Disney one was dumb, but they are not all dumb.
You mean the Ron DeSantis who publicly mocked a teenager for wearing a mask in the middle of a pandemic? And--like a tin pot dictator--punished the Disney Company for daring to stand up to his "Don't Say Gay" bill? In fact, he has a zero rating on LGBT issues. Of course, he's "pro-life" too. He criticized the Mueller probe while accepting money from Russia. And he just loves open carry laws.
Basically, he's a smarter Trump, a bully with all the same positions and the same vindictive approach to governing.
gimmethesimplelife
7-26-22, 10:17am
I feel really bad at what I'm about to post. I've always done my duty and voted for Democrats. But I gotta say that I am less than enthused at this point with Joe Biden.
At least DJT was not reelected - I'm grateful for that though I now believe his reelection would have hastened a breakup/split- it's nice not to cringe daily over POTUS behavior/quotes/lack of filter. I'm hoping Biden does not run again and younger blood runs.
Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-26-22, 10:22am
You mean the Ron DeSantis who publicly mocked a teenager for wearing a mask in the middle of a pandemic? And--like a tin pot dictator--punished the Disney Company for daring to stand up to his "Don't Say Gay" bill? In fact, he has a zero rating on LGBT issues. Of course, he's "pro-life" too. He criticized the Mueller probe while accepting money from Russia. And he just loves open carry laws.
Basically, he's a smarter Trump, a bully with all the same positions and the same vindictive approach to governing.I know I'm not popular here with my the US should split up rhetoric - but my take regardless? Should De Santis become President - he is also extremely polarizing and would lead to more pressure for a split up. Is this truly a GOP goal? After the recent secession talk in Texas, I wonder. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-26-22, 10:25am
I pray to a god I dont believe in that
deSantis is the Republican nominee.Is this truly in Conservative best interest, given his aggressively polarizing nature and a populace for which an eventual split up is no longer all that radical or unfathomable? I'd be elevating John Kasich of Ohio. Maybe Rob Portman? Rob
Is this truly in Conservative best interest, given his aggressively polarizing nature and a populace for which an eventual split up is no longer all that radical or unfathomable? I'd be elevating John Kasich of Ohio. Maybe Rob Portman? Rob
You’d prefer Trump again?
I would prefer Kasich or Cheney.
At this point, we’ll be damn lucky if it’s not the Orange One again.
gimmethesimplelife
7-26-22, 12:03pm
I would prefer Kasich or Cheney.Same here. I could live with Cheney or Kasich. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-26-22, 12:04pm
[QUOTE=
littlebittybobby
7-26-22, 1:11pm
Yes, Trump SHOULD be held accountable--- for having bad hair. It's time we put someone with GREAT HAIR in the Oval Office. Demand that Congerss get to work on this issue. Yup.4631
rosarugosa
7-26-22, 3:24pm
I used to have a theory that in this TV/video era, one needed good hair to be elected president. Trump certainly laid that theory to rest.
gimmethesimplelife
7-26-22, 5:57pm
I used to have a theory that in this TV/video era, one needed good hair to be elected president. Trump certainly laid that theory to rest.LOL. Rob
iris lilies
7-26-22, 6:23pm
Same here. I could live with Cheney or Kasich. Rob
Those choices might not hasten your deepest desire which is Civil War’s blood carnage or whatever it is that you envision should happen to the United States
In my opinion, we have a cold civil war now, but Steve Bannon, on his podcast, is trying to gin up a hot one.
ETA: https://www.newsweek.com/bannon-gaetz-call-shock-troops-take-control-government-if-trump-returns-24-1657916
gimmethesimplelife
7-26-22, 8:16pm
Those choices might not hasten your deepest desire which is Civil War’s blood carnage or whatever it is that you envision should happen to the United StatesDid you ever stop to think that I don't actually WANT the trauma of this country splitting? It just seems inevitable at this point, why not embrace it, make the most of it? Rob
In my opinion, we have a cold civil war now, but Steve Bannon, on his podcast, is trying to gin up a hot one.
ETA: https://www.newsweek.com/bannon-gaetz-call-shock-troops-take-control-government-if-trump-returns-24-1657916
That's a rather disturbing article. I hope it never comes to that.
That's a rather disturbing article. I hope it never comes to that.
If it does, it will be people like him who should be held responsible for stochastic terrorism. He's been fomenting mob violence in the name of nationalism for years. Meanwhile, Marjorie Taylor Green is proudly calling herself a Christian Nationalist.
"Christian nationalism is defined as "the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way," according to an article published by Christianity Today in 2021. "
Did you ever stop to think that I don't actually WANT the trauma of this country splitting? It just seems inevitable at this point, why not embrace it, make the most of it? Rob
What does "embracing it" mean, and how would I "make the most of it"?
I mean, there are some Republicans down the road from me with some pretty sweet stuff, and I don't think they are particularly good shots or educated about security...
http://rwanda-genocide94.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/2/5/25253061/4616573.jpg
frugal-one
7-26-22, 9:53pm
If it does, it will be people like him who should be held responsible for stochastic terrorism. He's been fomenting mob violence in the name of nationalism for years. Meanwhile, Marjorie Taylor Green is proudly calling herself a Christian Nationalist.
"Christian nationalism is defined as "the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way," according to an article published by Christianity Today in 2021. "
Rachel Maddow discussed Christian Nationalists yesterday. Was very interesting.
What does "embracing it" mean, and how would I "make the most of it"?
I mean, there are some Republicans down the road from me with some pretty sweet stuff, and I don't think they are particularly good shots or educated about security...
I'll be toast, as I'm not going to profess Christianity. I'll probably be sent to the camps. (Though I should be on the rolls of the Catholic church somewhere, and Catholics loom large in this movement.)
... after (Andrew) Torba endorsed (Doug) Mastriano (Pennsylvania Republican gubernatorial candidate), the Gab founder filmed a video again making his anti-Semitic politics clear.
“This isn’t a big tent,” Torba said. “This is a Christian movement, full stop. The only way that we’re going to gain any ground in the culture, in the government, in taking our towns, our cities, our states, our counties in our country back is by putting Jesus Christ first. It’s just that simple. There’s no other way. There’s no other path.”
Separately, Torba said he considered certain Jewish conservatives — Dave Rubin and Ben Shapiro — unwelcome in the movement unless “they repent and accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.”
“We don’t want people who are atheists,” he said. “We don’t want people who are Jewish. We don’t want people who are, you know, nonbelievers, agnostic, whatever.”
What if Hitler joined forces with Torquemada? Time will tell.
I'll be toast, as I'm not going to profess Christianity. I'll probably be sent to the camps.
This sort of thing is how my ancestors ended up in America.
I would prefer Kasich or Cheney.
I’d put the likelihood of the republicans picking a moderate Democrat like either of them at approximately -542%.
I’d put the likelihood of the republicans picking a moderate Democrat like either of them at approximately -542%.
And that is why there is no Republican Party anymore.
It's more than disturbing....1938...
This sort of thing is how my ancestors ended up in America.
I'm sure that's how some of the SO's ancestors wound up in Mexico. I have to apologize for my Puritan forebears, famously punitive and priggish sect members who brought this mindset to America in the first place.
It's more than disturbing....1938...
I used to wonder how the horrors of Hitler and Nazism came to be--how good Germans didn't see it coming and stop it. Now I know. People are generally willfully ignorant and disinclined to educate themselves until it's too late. And maybe not even then.
I'm sure that's how some of the SO's ancestors wound up in Mexico. I have to apologize for my Puritan forebears, famously punitive and priggish sect members who brought this mindset to America in the first place.
I’m sure my ancestors did many awful things, yet strangely I feel no need to apologize for them. I don’t believe guilt is heritable.
Puritans used to put people in the stocks for blasphemy. Now they try to get people kicked off Netflix or fired from their university jobs for blasphemy. Progress.
I’m sure my ancestors did many awful things, yet strangely I feel no need to apologize for them. I don’t believe guilt is heritable.
Property is, though.
Property is, though.
I don’t feel the need to apologize for that either.
I don’t feel the need to apologize for that either.
I guess if my Dad had slaughtered the neighbors and driven them off their land, taking it for himself, I might feel a bit ambivalent about inheriting his estate and continuing to lord it over the survivors.
catherine
7-27-22, 10:58am
It's probably not interesting or relevant for the secularists here, but the Pope did apologize to the Canadian Indian school survivors. Rightfully so. What an egregious irony and travesty--a religion based on love tearing people away from their families, culture, languages, and identity.
I don't think people need to wake up feeling guilty every day because of the "sins of the fathers", but I do think that at least recognizing the horrible treatment--genocide really--of the European colonizers upon the Natives in the Americas would at least be appropriate.
I used to wonder how the horrors of Hitler and Nazism came to be--how good Germans didn't see it coming and stop it. Now I know. People are generally willfully ignorant and disinclined to educate themselves until it's too late. And maybe not even then.
Considering that in his speech yesterday trump called for 2 hour trials and the death penalty for drug dealers, for the forceful removal of homeless people to internment camps outside of cities, and for the federal government to take over the national guard in some sort of giant national police force, I'd say 1938 is a pretty good comparison.
I guess if my Dad had slaughtered the neighbors and driven them off their land, taking it for himself, I might feel a bit ambivalent about inheriting his estate and continuing to lord it over the survivors.
How about somebody else’s great great grandad, whose grandson sold it to your grand dad?
How about somebody else’s great great grandad, whose grandson sold it to your grand dad?
https://www.newsweek.com/painting-looted-nazis-returned-jewish-family-after-80-years-1679513
I don't think people need to wake up feeling guilty every day because of the "sins of the fathers", but I do think that at least recognizing the horrible treatment--genocide really--of the European colonizers upon the Natives in the Americas would at least be appropriate.
OK. So noted. History happened, and sometimes it wasn’t pretty. But what’s “appropriate”. A “stolen land acknowledgment” before every gathering? Some kind of race-based national day of penitence? Knocking down a few more statues and renaming some schools? If you go back far enough, we all have some villains and some victims in our pedigrees. Who’s in charge of the calculations of which group owes what to who?
How about somebody else’s great great grandad, whose grandson sold it to your grand dad?
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-beachfront-land-taken-black-family-returned-ceremony-2022-07-20/
https://www.newsweek.com/painting-looted-nazis-returned-jewish-family-after-80-years-1679513
That works for individual works of art, but how do you trace the provenance of Western Europe or North America? How far back should we be willing to go?
catherine
7-27-22, 11:35am
OK. So noted. History happened, and sometimes it wasn’t pretty. But what’s “appropriate”. A “stolen land acknowledgment” before every gathering? Some kind of race-based national day of penitence? Knocking down a few more statues and renaming some schools? If you go back far enough, we all have some villains and some victims in our pedigrees. Who’s in charge of the calculations of which group owes what to who?
What is appropriate is recognizing the truth. You can only admit to yourself what the truth is. If enough people do that, justice will eventually be served in one way or the other. if one feels more comfortable in denial or in resistance to the truth, humanity will never progress. We are all human beings first. After that we can label ourselves any way we choose--as long as we recognize our shared humanity first.
That works for individual works of art, but how do you trace the provenance of Western Europe or North America? How far back should we be willing to go?
Well, rather than arguing that since it is difficult to remedy the injustices perpetrated upon the Neanderthal by Homo Sapiens we should just smile and move on, how about we start with specific recent events, and the ongoing consequences of them?
Rather than, say, trying to suppress the votes of people who aren't members of the dominant culture? And trying to eliminate discussion of such issues in our public educational system?
What is appropriate is recognizing the truth. You can only admit to yourself what the truth is. If enough people do that, justice will eventually be served in one way or the other. if one feels more comfortable in denial or in resistance to the truth, humanity will never progress. We are all human beings first. After that we can label ourselves any way we choose--as long as we recognize our shared humanity first.
Except for a few outliers, everybody acknowledges historical injustice. But apart from empty pieties and virtue signaling, what should the practical response be?
I don't feel responsible for my priggish ancestors--just disgusted by them. But witch hunters may be in vogue again, if Samuel Alito is any indicator.
catherine
7-27-22, 11:46am
Except for a few outliers, everybody acknowledges historical injustice. But apart from empty pieties and virtue signaling, what should the practical response be?
Why don't you ask the Native American communities?
iris lilies
7-27-22, 11:50am
Why don't you ask the Native American communities? I think the native American communities that own all that land in Palm Springs where homeowners pay leases fir the land their house sits on are doing pretty well.
I think the native American communities that own all that land in Palm Springs where homeowners pay leases fir the land their house sits on are doing pretty well.
Wealthy tribes are the outliers, from what I've seen.
At least we could learn from our mistakes (or crimes, more realistically), which it's not clear we have.
catherine
7-27-22, 12:06pm
Wealthy tribes are the outliers, from what I've seen.
At least we could learn from our mistakes (or crimes, more realistically), which it's not clear we have.
They could also be great teachers with regard to how we view and manage our natural "resources."
They could also be great teachers with regard to how we view and manage our natural "resources."
I think that outlook runs the danger of committing another "sin" - fetishization of Native American wisdom and cultural practices.
catherine
7-27-22, 12:20pm
I think that outlook runs the danger of committing another "sin" - fetishization of Native American wisdom and cultural practices.
Yes, but we can benefit from their wisdom without sacrificing some of the progress we've made. Their wisdom can point us in the direction of a "sharing" mentality rather than a "devouring" mentality.
Why don't you ask the Native American communities?
Which community? The one that was displaced by Europeans, or the the previous owners that they displaced?
My fear is that if he is not held accountable, then he will go on to worse and worse atrocities--like 1938. I do not understand how he could have been impeached twice and not stopped then.
My fear is that if he is not held accountable, then he will go on to worse and worse atrocities--like 1938. I do not understand how he could have been impeached twice and not stopped then.
At every stop along the way there were Republican enablers. Look at House and Senate votes. With very, very few exceptions, Republicans are culpable.
What makes you think they (Jan 6 Committee) are interested in a prosecutable charge? Chairman Bennie Thompson (D) has said they will not make a criminal referral to the DOJ. This seems to be a strictly political production, possibly designed to inflame you while not actually doing anything.
How many times did Hillary Clinton have to answer questions about Benghazi? Which she did in a professional fashion without whining, even though she had no culpability in the matter.
I listened to you guys for years talking about GWB stealing an election from the real winner, Al Gore. I guess you de-sensitized my reaction to sore losers.
Al Gore was the very antithesis of a sore loser.
frugal-one
7-27-22, 2:52pm
My fear is that if he is not held accountable, then he will go on to worse and worse atrocities--like 1938. I do not understand how he could have been impeached twice and not stopped then.
And, republicans still will vote for him!!!!
And, republicans still will vote for him!!!!
And the Democratic Party will spend your money promoting his preferred candidates prior to the mid-terms so that you can blame Republicans when they win.
iris lilies
7-27-22, 6:48pm
Wealthy tribes are the outliers, from what I've seen.
At least we could learn from our mistakes (or crimes, more realistically), which it's not clear we have.
Oh yes the wealthy tribes are not the typical ones, that’s for sure. But they do exist. I just mentioned it to point that out.
Oh yes the wealthy tribes are not the typical ones, that’s for sure. But they do exist. I just mentioned it to point that out.
#not_all_...
Right...
And the Democratic Party will spend your money promoting his preferred candidates prior to the mid-terms so that you can blame Republicans when they win.
I’ve been wondering about that too. “These guys are a deadly threat. Let’s give them some cash in the hope that they’ll get a shot at the general election. No way we can lose then.”
In fairness, some Democrats recognize this strategy for the idiocy that it is.
I’ve been wondering about that too. “These guys are a deadly threat. Let’s give them some cash in the hope that they’ll get a shot at the general election. No way we can lose then.”
In fairness, some Democrats recognize this strategy for the idiocy that it is.
Yes. It seems like a really high stakes game of poker that we’re playing. I don’t think it’s a great idea personally but i suppose we’ll see come November.
frugal-one
7-27-22, 10:02pm
And the Democratic Party will spend your money promoting his preferred candidates prior to the mid-terms so that you can blame Republicans when they win.
How can you vote for a twice impeached president? Doesn't that tell you something?
A good synopsis of how the whole fake elector scheme developed and who was pushing it (basically everyone in trump's immediate orbit except white house counsel, which makes sense since white house counsel works for the government and not for a traitorous president who wants to overthrow the government). And it points out various points where the coup instigators knew that what they were doing was ****ing bullshit. If a whole lot of these traitors don't wind up in prison then this is a failed country. But heck, republicans will give rich people tax cuts so some people will keep voting for them. How those voters can continue looking at themselves in the mirror in the morning baffles me.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/7/26/2112741/-Report-The-wild-creative-chaos-of-Trump-s-fake-elector-scheme-aired-out-in-new-emails
Yes. It seems like a really high stakes game of poker that we’re playing. I don’t think it’s a great idea personally but i suppose we’ll see come November.
The optics are certainly questionable. How can you claim someone is trying to destroy all we hold dear, but at the same time support them against a more moderate Republican on the assumption that you will inevitably defeat them? Especially since we have the lesson of Mrs. Clinton’s inevitability still fresh in mind.
In fairness, some Democrats recognize this strategy for the idiocy that it is.
They may have learned election strategies from the Republicans who lost but still claims they won. That could take the idiocy cake. I guess all is fair in...love and elections?
They may have learned election strategies from the Republicans who lost but still claims they won. That could take the idiocy cake. I guess all is fair in...love and elections?
Lying about the legitimacy of elections is hardly new in our recent history, but this is a special new innovation in jackassery. If some of the clowns they are supporting beat the Democrats they run against in the general election, I have to believe their stupidity will echo through the ages long after the “big lie” is forgotten.
Lying about the legitimacy of elections is hardly new in our recent history, but this is a special new innovation in jackassery. If some of the clowns they are supporting beat the Democrats they run against in the general election, I have to believe their stupidity will echo through the ages long after the “big lie” is forgotten.
I probably don't have the predictive ability to have any accurate forecast of such things, but I have wondered if the other big Reblublican lie on climate change denial will be remembered
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