View Full Version : Putin's Annexing Parts Of Ukraine.....
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-22, 1:26pm
Do you believe this annexing of parts of Ukraine brings us closer to war? Putin's acts here are illegal by international law and to me are Hitlerian in scope and audacity.
I'm also worried that he may invade Moldova and Georgia next - though I'm aware his armies don't exactly have their act together (Thank God).
Rob
Yes, I think we are lurching step-by-step towards a very unpleasant escalation.
Closer to war though? Well, I think if you look carefully, we're already at war.
Putin's slowly going down in flames. He won't last long enough for any more fake referenda. He can't even hold on to the parts of Ukraine that he's temporarily taken. He's dangerous because he's cornered.
His army is unwilling, untrained, unequipped, and unmanned. He's scrambling to put more unwilling. untrained conscripts in the front lines. They have to provide their own equipment--save a uniform, a rusty WWII weapon and a few shells. I feel very sorry for those who joined his army only because they needed the money, and have no desire to kill or be killed. The best thing that can happen to them is being captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
The Russian army is almost completely toothless and Putin is a murderous psychopath who's apparently killing off old allies at a rapid clip--sixteen so far and counting. All he has is a pile of nukes, and people have joked that those are probably inoperable, too.
Yes, I think we are lurching step-by-step towards a very unpleasant escalation.
Closer to war though? Well, I think if you look carefully, we're already at war.
I've been following this closely, because--unlike previous wars--it's a clear-cut case of good vs. evil. I couldn't be more supportive of President Zelenskyy and Ukraine than I am. What brave, capable, decent people fighting to the death for their democracy.
In other news, Putin claims he has annexed Albuquerquee - he has no Russian troops there, but claims a referendum concludes they support Russia.
I suppose there is a chance he will use new and more unacceptable weaponry, but it seems like his military strength is pretty much maxed out otherwise. At least by the news, it doesn't seem like his new draftees will be very motivated.
In other news, Putin claims he has annexed Albuquerquee - he has no Russian troops there, but claims a referendum concludes they support Russia.
Old autocrats everywhere seem seem to rely on similar scripts.
He may have trouble with supplies, as many potential allies/arms dealers are slipping away. Iranian drones have proved nearly useless. And commander-fragging is a popular sport, though they do frequently escape, leaving their companies without direction.
Putin should have asked for a referendum to begin with, presided over by an independent body, instead of starting a war. There are many ethnic Russians in the eastern provinces who wanted to be part of Russia.
He is an idiot.
He may have trouble with supplies, as many potential allies/arms dealers are slipping away. Iranian drones have proved nearly useless. And commander-fragging is a popular sport, though they do frequently escape, leaving their companies without direction.
While it is true that the Russian officer corps has proven itself to be thoroughly unprofessional and the troops in the ranks seem as unmotivated as they are incompetent, I think it would be a mistake to underestimate the impact of brutal, grinding attrition.
The Ukrainians have performed very well to date, but at a high cost in property destruction, population displacement, hyperinflation and casualties. Even with continued Western support, there are limits to what a people can endure.
And ongoing Western support is by no means ensured. The Germans, especially, seem to be wavering. Perhaps we are seeing the legacy of the Schroeder/Merkel years: disinvesting defense capabilities and defining going green as building windmills and importing hydrocarbons from hostile neighbors. Putin’s nuclear threats may also get some traction.
Cruelty and disregard for life and honor could yet win the day. It’s happened before.
The Americans will waiver too if republicans take either house of congress next month.
The Americans will waiver too if republicans take either house of congress next month.
It seems likely we will be testing that proposition in the near future.
It seems likely we will be testing that proposition in the near future.
Yet another reason not to vote Republican.
iris lilies
10-5-22, 10:13pm
The Americans will waiver too if republicans take either house of congress next month.
I’m not sure that “wavering “is all that bad position.
I’m not sure that “wavering “is all that bad position.
I suppose if one is fine with russia invading a country and us abandoning them after the invaded country has wildly succeeded beyond all expectations in defending its liberty. Sure. Not a bad position at all. Tucker Carlson would probably love to interview you on his show. You’d fit right in.
I continue to be impressed with the caliber of the Ukrainian army (and its people, for that matter), and am impressed and relieved that their recent offensives continue to be successful. It will be a day for celebration when Putin's sad, bedraggled army is driven out entirely.
We've wasted billions of dollars in my lifetime on pointless wars--at least a couple of which I protested in the streets--we can certainly afford to invest against this naked assault on democracy. We've left good people in the lurch before: Kurds, Afghan interpreters--we have a chance to redeem ourselves this time.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy has proven himself a thousand times over.
Tucker Carlson is a despicable little worm.
iris lilies
10-6-22, 1:56pm
I suppose if one is fine with russia invading a country and us abandoning them after the invaded country has wildly succeeded beyond all expectations in defending its liberty. Sure. Not a bad position at all. Tucker Carlson would probably love to interview you on his show. You’d fit right in.
i have thoughts that may seem, to you, to be stupidly conflicting, but this situation isnt really so simple as you may think it is. I know the name Tucker Carlson but can never remember which propaganda media source he works for.
1. Putin is a bully and a badnick
2. Putin’s invasion is uncalled for, overstepping, aggressive, bad bad bad
3. provocation has been escalating for years
4. United states is….not innocent at provoking this
5. Biden needs ro make obvious gestures toward reconciliation, agreements, a path thru this
6. zelenski needs to cool his jets in calling for Putin to be punished
7. The world needs to recognize the insanity of pushing Nuke guy Putin
I hope Jane is right that Vladimir is on the outs, but I am not sure we here have the full picture of the support Putin has from Russians. I dont know how to assess that, but I do know there is a hige contingent of his people that favor his actions.
Carlson (Fox) is one of the likely majority of Republicans who openly or secretly pine for an autocratic government, with a comfortable oligarchy a'la Russia. He--and some other Republicans-- openly favor Putin. They don't want to live in a democracy.
I'm sure you're aware that Ukraine has been decimated by Putin's war, with evidence of mass torture and slaughter of civilians and utter, wanton destruction of towns, citizens, and animals. Putin certainly deserves punishment for war crimes, though he'll surely avoid it.
,
President Zelenskyy, who avoided several of Putin's assassination attempts early on, certainly has no reason to compromise and reward Putin by ceding territory to him. His only "provocation" was aligning himself with the democratic West. Freedom means a lot to citizens who have only recently gained it..
Carlson (Fox) is one of the likely majority of Republicans who openly or secretly pine for an autocratic government, with a comfortable oligarchy a'la Russia. He--and some other Republicans-- openly favor Putin. They don't want to live in a democracy.
Are those generalizations based upon facts? I've never watched his show but I hear it's one of the top rated pundit shows on cable which makes me wonder if it's the Jane's and JP1's and Frugal-One's of the world that keep him on top. I have seen lots of commentary about him here and elsewhere but it's all from left leaning sources spewing hate so I don't pay much attention to that either.
iris lilies
10-6-22, 3:06pm
Carlson (Fox) is one of the likely majority of Republicans who openly or secretly pine for an autocratic government, with a comfortable oligarchy a'la Russia. He--and some other Republicans-- openly favor Putin. They don't want to live in a democracy.
I'm sure you're aware that Ukraine has been decimated by Putin's war, with evidence of mass torture and slaughter of civilians and utter, wanton destruction of towns, citizens, and animals. Putin certainly deserves punishment for war crimes, though he'll surely avoid it.
,
President Zelenskyy, who avoided several of Putin's assassination attempts early on, certainly has no reason to compromise and reward Putin by ceding territory to him. His only "provocation" was aligning himself with the democratic West. Freedom means a lot to citizens who have only recently gained it..
ah yes, Osama Bin Laden hated us because we were free. I’m sure the same is true foe Vladimir. It is our freedom these despots hate. (Not.)
look, his treatment of Ukranian citizens is horrific. The asshole should not have invaded. i’m glad it appears he’s getting his ass kicked.
But I do not buy his invasion was entirely unprovoked.
ah yes, Osama Bin Laden hated us because we were free. I’m sure the same is true foe Vladimir. It is our freedom these despots hate. (Not.)
look, his treatment of Ukranian citizens is horrific. The asshole should not have invaded. i’m glad it appears he’s getting his ass kicked.
But I do not buy his invasion was entirely unprovoked.
I guess provocation is in the eye of the beholder--a lot of rapists seem to think so. Ukraine is a sovereign country; I think being peaceful and productive and aligning with Europe was their "provocation."
Are those generalizations based upon facts? I've never watched his show but I hear it's one of the top rated pundit shows on cable which makes me wonder if it's the Jane's and JP1's and Frugal-One's of the world that keep him on top. I have seen lots of commentary about him here and elsewhere but it's all from left leaning sources spewing hate so I don't pay much attention to that either.
I've never watched Fox. I've caught Carlson's performances in YT clips and opinion pieces. He's very popular with the MAGA crowd. As far as "spewing hate" goes, no one can touch the Right. (Reference MTG's comment above, and many others.)
ETA: Here's an example of the Left "spewing hate." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBzYJ66yJiE
I guess provocation is in the eye of the beholder--a lot of rapists seem to think so. Ukraine is a sovereign country; I think being peaceful and productive and aligning with Europe was their "provocation."
I think there is no nation past or present with clean hands. But some are a great deal worse than others. Such is the case with Russia. I think spending money to discourage them from attacking neighbors is a good deal.
Are those generalizations based upon facts? I've never watched his show but I hear it's one of the top rated pundit shows on cable which makes me wonder if it's the Jane's and JP1's and Frugal-One's of the world that keep him on top. I have seen lots of commentary about him here and elsewhere but it's all from left leaning sources spewing hate so I don't pay much attention to that either.
I very much dislike Tucker Carlson. He is a total bully. It has nothing to do with what Jane and JP1 and frugal-one or I think. His journalism is shoddy and one-sided. He screams and interrupts his interviewees incessantly. I find him absolutely grating to listen to. I remember one particular interview with Bill Nye where his verbal barbs just rendered the environment for intelligent discourse uninhabitable. He's nothing but a rabble rouser.
But I do not buy his invasion was entirely unprovoked.
I'm starting to believe that.
iris lilies
10-6-22, 9:06pm
I think there is no nation past or present with clean hands. But some are a great deal worse than others. Such is the case with Russia. I think spending money to discourage them from attacking neighbors is a good deal.
If the only thing that happens is that we spend money, sure.
But I do not buy his invasion was entirely unprovoked.
I'm starting to believe that.
I’m curious what has caused either of
you to come to that conclusion.
frugal-one
10-8-22, 9:15am
I very much dislike Tucker Carlson. He is a total bully. It has nothing to do with what Jane and JP1 and frugal-one or I think. His journalism is shoddy and one-sided. He screams and interrupts his interviewees incessantly. I find him absolutely grating to listen to. I remember one particular interview with Bill Nye where his verbal barbs just rendered the environment for intelligent discourse uninhabitable. He's nothing but a rabble rouser.
Have never seen and just heard of him. Based on what is being said here, it doesn’t surprise me republicans listen to him. That is the type of people who now vote party over country and for those who support insurectionists. ETA..Jane, that clip does depict the left’s hatred. I watched that report by Katie earlier.
I’m curious what has caused either of
you to come to that conclusion.
I am not saying Russia is justified one little bit--of course not. But I don't think I'm alone in believing that some geopolitical forces spooked Putin. I'm reading the book The Greatest Evil is War. In it, the author Chris Hedges, a former war correspondent with The NY Times who spent 20 years covering wars in the Middle East and South America, outlines some of these forces--for example, the expansion of NATO.
https://therealnews.com/the-chris-hedges-report-ukraine-and-the-resurgence-of-american-militarism
I'm still digesting all this, so I haven't formed any strong opinion yet.
iris lilies
10-8-22, 9:57am
I am not saying Russia is justified one little bit--of course not. But I don't think I'm alone in believing that some geopolitical forces spooked Putin. I'm reading the book The Greatest Evil is War. In it, the author Chris Hedges, a former war correspondent with The NY Times who spent 20 years covering wars in the Middle East and South America, outlines some of these forces--for example, the expansion of NATO.
https://therealnews.com/the-chris-hedges-report-ukraine-and-the-resurgence-of-american-militarism
I'm still digesting all this, so I haven't formed any strong opinion yet.
yes, NATO on Vladimir’s border, the threat of it, when the West had agreed several decades ago to keep it away from Russia, is a big step toward provocation. Let’s see how we react when Russia sets up missiles near us, say, in Cuba. Although I realize technology has reduced the need for nukes to be placed by their target, we can see the threat.
All of the back and forth of the Ukrainian revolution a few years ago, and the involvement of the United States in that mess, demonstrates the usual proxy war actions of our country.
catherine, Chris Hedges is a source for me, too. I listened to a Cliff Notes summary by an anti-war podcaster of Hedge’s Ukraine reporting.
and p.s. Never ever forget the power of the military industrial complex in our country. Ya think it is absent here? All righty then.
Have never seen and just heard of him. Based on what is being said here, it doesn’t surprise me republicans listen to him. That is the type of people who now vote party over country and for those who support insurectionists. ETA..Jane, that clip does depict the left’s hatred. I watched that report by Katie earlier.
The left's "hatred" seems more like a critical analysis to me--at least we're not randomly accusing people of unexplained mass killings with no rationale whatsoever.
Wouldn’t “critical analysis” generally involve more than “I’ve never seen his show, but I’ve heard people talk about him and seen a few edited clips”?
That being said, I have seen his show, and he is a poisonous toad in the fever swamps of American polemics as bad as anything I’ve seen on MSNBC. He’s no Bill Buckley, that’s for sure. I’m not even sure you could reasonably call him a conservative in any meaningful sense.
If you want to hear reasoned conservative commentary, I would recommend Charles CW Cooke, Jonah Goldberg, Kevin Williamson or Brendan Dougherty. You’ll probably hate them even more, but they don’t shout and shriek at you.
I've seen enough of Tucker Carlson to form an opinion. His commentary may be mostly shtick designed to draw in the faithful, but that doesn't make him less odious.
If the only thing that happens is that we spend money, sure.
I think that should depend on how the situation develops. Russia has a long history of pretending that they need to dominate their neighbors to feel safe, and I don’t see them looking at the “Peace for our time” approach as anything less than an invitation.
I am not saying Russia is justified one little bit--of course not. But I don't think I'm alone in believing that some geopolitical forces spooked Putin. I'm reading the book The Greatest Evil is War. In it, the author Chris Hedges, a former war correspondent with The NY Times who spent 20 years covering wars in the Middle East and South America, outlines some of these forces--for example, the expansion of NATO.
https://therealnews.com/the-chris-hedges-report-ukraine-and-the-resurgence-of-american-militarism
I'm still digesting all this, so I haven't formed any strong opinion yet.
So Putin's obvious paranoia is an excuse to invade and try to destroy a neighboring, sovereign country? Kill thousands of his own and Ukraine's troops, as well as civilians? Is he going after Finland next, for their apostasy in applying to join NATO?
It seems to me more likely the beginning of his trying to recreate the late, unlamented Soviet Union--perhaps to distract from the abject failure of Russia, which John McCain famously called "a gas station masquerading as a country."
It is fun watching the Putin wing of the Republican Party come scurrying out from under their rocks.
It is fun watching the Putin wing of the Republican Party come scurrying out from under their rocks.
In their defense, Putin is an uber-authoritarian in good standing.
iris lilies
10-8-22, 1:07pm
In their defense, Putin is an uber-authoritarian in good standing.
How would you characterize the Russian people’s attitudes towards Vladimir?
iris lilies
10-8-22, 1:08pm
It is fun watching the Putin wing of the Republican Party come scurrying out from under their rocks.
This is a place where the Libertarians (classical liberals) intersect with (apparently) right wingers.
sometimes that happens, finding ourselves in the same place for different reasons.
So Putin's obvious paranoia is an excuse to invade and try to destroy a neighboring, sovereign country? Kill thousands of his own and Ukraine's troops, as well as civilians? Is he going after Finland next, for their apostasy in applying to join NATO?
It seems to me more likely the beginning of his trying to recreate the late, unlamented Soviet Union--perhaps to distract from the abject failure of Russia, which John McCain famously called "a gas station masquerading as a country."
I devoted seven years of my life to the great project of containing the USSR until it collapsed under the weight of it’s own brutal stupidity and corruption, so I will admit to an element of bias. But I’m inclined to agree with you.
iris lilies
10-8-22, 1:30pm
I devoted seven years of my life to the great project of containing the USSR until it collapsed under the weight of it’s own brutal stupidity and corruption, so I will admit to an element of bias. But I’m inclined to agree with you.
I do hope that all of you are right, that anyone standing against Putin is absolutely right and will prevail. it hopefully will not lead to a conflagration of World War III.
Ukraine’s Sovereignty isn't worth it. Let’s put off the nukes as long as possible.
But more importantly, what is the way out of this?
But more importantly,, what is the way out of this?
https://img.money.com/2016/03/gettyimages-168966912.jpg?quality=60&w=1600
I do hope that all of you are right, that anyone standing against Putin is absolutely right and will prevail. it hopefully will not lead to a conflagration of World War III.
Ukraine’s Sovereignty isn't worth it. Let’s put off the nukes as long as possible.
But more importantly, what is the way out of this?
I don’t think you need for every ally to be absolutely right. No such illusions are required. When he was taken to task for making common cause with the USSR against Hitler, Churchill famously said that if Hell were to declare war against Germany he would find something nice to say about Satan in the House of Commons.
War is a terrible thing, but if the alternative is to allow the monster to devour other people in the hope that he won’t get around to you, it may not be the ugliest alternative.
I agree, though, that in this case a good old-fashioned Kremlin purge would be the optimal solution.
frugal-one
10-8-22, 3:50pm
How would you characterize the Russian people’s attitudes towards Vladimir?
The mass exodus of adult males speaks volumes.
iris lilies
10-8-22, 4:29pm
I don’t think you need for every ally to be absolutely right. No such illusions are required. When he was taken to task for making common cause with the USSR against Hitler, Churchill famously said that if Hell were to declare war against Germany he would find something nice to say about Satan in the House of Commons.
War is a terrible thing, but if the alternative is to allow the monster to devour other people in the hope that he won’t get around to you, it may not be the ugliest alternative.
I agree, though, that in this case a good old-fashioned Kremlin purge would be the optimal solution.
I’m not brave and I’m pretty old. That’s why I’m hoping the nukes will hold off until I am dead.
I do hope that all of you are right, that anyone standing against Putin is absolutely right and will prevail. it hopefully will not lead to a conflagration of World War III.
Ukraine’s Sovereignty isn't worth it. Let’s put off the nukes as long as possible.
The problem is that if putin had had his cakewalk into Kyiv he wouldn't stop with Ukraine. How many other independent countries aren't worth protecting?
But more importantly, what is the way out of this?
For now, keep at the current course. Ukraine, undoubtedly in part because of the weapons and strategic intelligence being provided to them by the US and Europe is making mince meat of putin's army and seems to be getting better at it every day. If anyone had told me a couple months ago that Ukraine would be taking out the Kerch Strait bridge and the neighboring rail bridge in the near future, seriously hampering a major russian supply line and destroying a russian fuel train in the process, I would have considered that person to be wildly optimistic.
I've watched a lot of videos of the Ukrainian army, and I'm impressed with their apparent discipline, skill (particularly with new weapons systems), and cohesiveness. Russian troops, from their own reports in intercepted calls home, are in constant disarray, with drinking, desertion of the wounded (if not worse), lack of supplies, stories of looting, etc.
There are reports of recently-mobilized troops surrendering en masse as soon as they enter Ukraine, which, AFAIC, is the only smart thing to do. Some Russians have formed battalions that are actively fighting Russian troops. Others are calling President Zelenskyy's "i want to live" hot line and asking how to surrender before they even get there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGwgS8Z6utw (Recording of Russian soldier seeking to surrender)
Of course this is good propaganda for Ukraine, which--unlike Russia with its phosphorous bombs, torture, and casual murder of soldiers and civilians alike--is making a point of observing the Geneva Conventions.
It looks like the Russians are conducting missile strikes at various civilian targets in response to the bridge attack. For the first time, a single commander for the war has been appointed. I wonder if he feels like VP Harris did when she found out she was “in charge” of the southern border.
It looks like the Russians are conducting missile strikes at various civilian targets in response to the bridge attack. For the first time, a single commander for the war has been appointed. I wonder if he feels like VP Harris did when she found out she was “in charge” of the southern border.
Good comparison. I wonder if they still send failed commanders to assignments in Siberia.
gimmethesimplelife
10-10-22, 11:28am
The mass exodus of adult males speaks volumes.The fleeing Russian men to me at least are worthy of great respect. They are voting with their feet the same exact way I would were I in their shoes. Much as I always wished I could have been part of a meet and greet in Canada for fleeing US men during the Vietnam War, I wish I could be part of a meet and greet for these fleeing Russians. But responsibility calls and today I start my new job - so much for any meet/greet and I don't know how wise international travel is at the moment. Even Nogales, MX a few days ago seemed tense and grittier than usual. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-10-22, 11:32am
Forgot to add - I watched footage of that blown up m strategically important Russian bridge - supposedly a psychological blow to Putin and one I hope doesn't push him over the edge. I can tell you Austrians are getting more worried and Astrid is now sending daily emails to let me know die Familie is safe. It all seems to be getting saltier and less stable.
Rob
JaneV2.0
10-10-22, 12:03pm
The world would be a far better place if Alexi Navalny were Russian head of state. Maybe he could reverse hundreds of years of corruption (and deliver Putin to prosecutors). In my dreams.
Let’s see how we react when Russia sets up missiles near us, say, in Cuba.
and p.s. Never ever forget the power of the military industrial complex in our country. Ya think it is absent here? All righty then.
Before Russia ever set up missiles in Cuba, the US had thousands of warheads in Europe capable of easily reaching Russia. The final threat was our placing nuclear missiles in Turkey in 1961.
Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Glen Greenwald - must reads on Ukraine.
If they're too radical for your taste, the eminently reasonable Robert Wright.
Never ever forget the power of the military industrial complex in our country.
Amen.
The usual suspects are opining away that this war is about the West waging some kind of proxy war against the poor Russians for various nefarious purposes. I think it’s a lot simpler than that. A dictatorship with a history of preying on it’s neighbors invades a country on transparently absurd pretexts with the intention of acquiring additional territory.
When other countries provide support to the Ukrainians in defending themselves, even traditional neutrals like Switzerland, we are told this is a form of aggression. Not being invested in anti-Western ideology, I don’t buy that. Sometimes, however infrequently, it is a question of good and evil.
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