View Full Version : Disdain for "the poors"
I hang out a variety of places online besides SLF. One right leaning, others a mix. Variety of FB groups. There is a huge disdain for what people refer to as "the poors" in all of these places.
All of these people must either still be doing very well or hiding they're in trouble themselves. There is absolutely no compassion for people in financial trouble. It's all considered to be their own fault if they're in trouble. If middle class people need help due to inflation, oh, well, their fault. I'm even seeing this from a lot of people on the left.
On any of the financial shows on the radio, it's all about stock market investments. Almost nothing about help for more average people.
What are you seeing?
The only similar sentiment I see is frustration with the homeless situation, which is understandable, considering its impact, especially on the west coast.
"I've got mine; to hell with you!" is not a new concept in this country, but it never used to be mainstream. Sign of our selfish times, I guess.
iris lilies
11-6-22, 3:29pm
I see what seems to me endless yapping of platitudes about how we as a society need to help everyone. And then, there’s the ever popular finger-pointing about using wrong terms for societal victims. Lots, I mean LOTS of one-upmanship about who is woker than who, and who is a bigger victim is what I see.
As example, Jane is using an insensitive term. We must digitally slap her for using the word “homeless.“ The respectful term is “unhoused.” Jane get with the program!
So see? I am more woke than Jane and I made the world better because I b-slapped Jane. My work is done, my good deed for the day completed. :)
Or something like that, that seems to be how it works out in the blogosphere. There’s a lot of nattering about nothing.
Where I live, there seems to be a difference in the attitudes towards the locally-sourced "poors", and the attitudes towards the outsider grifters who have somehow decided to go to the trouble and expense to get over here, in the hopes that our welcoming and supportive community will support them too.
We also have a good solid stream of "begpackers" who aren't looked especially fondly upon.
Anyways, the ferry ride back to the mainland is free, and there are far more services and resources available there.
In my city, the general populace has been very tolerant of vagrants and folks who prefer to live outside of which there are many. There are charities and church groups that feed and pick up after them endlessly. Volunteer groups ditto. The fire department puts out their non-stop fires. I have lost my patience with that segment though I know they are drug addicted and mentally ill for the most part. The local indy paper did an in-depth piece that delved into the lives of several homeless people. Hard upbringings so they did not have the life skills to get by. These are societal issues long in the making and I wonder often about the future as incomes can't keep up with expenses for those who are at least trying.
"As example, Jane is using an insensitive term. We must digitally slap her for using the word “homeless.“ The respectful term is “unhoused.” Jane get with the program!"
The politically correct PNW term is "houseless." which is ridiculous, seeing how expensive actual houses are around here. I'll stick with homeless. :~)
iris lilies
11-6-22, 5:04pm
"As example, Jane is using an insensitive term. We must digitally slap her for using the word “homeless.“ The respectful term is “unhoused.” Jane get with the program!"
The politically correct PNW term is "houseless." which is ridiculous, seeing how expensive actual houses are around here. I'll stick with homeless. :~)
Houseless! I’ve not heard that one. With the PNW being coastal and therefore more advanced than I am here in flyover country, I accept your superior wokeNess. I just slapped my own hand.
littlebittybobby
11-6-22, 6:27pm
Okay---can we talk about Very Important Things? Complaining about the poor and stupid losers is not a bad thing; just don't get stuck on any particular group, or you'll bee deemed one of the "-ists". But yeah---those of us who are more sophisticated have a deserved tendency to find fault with Those People. All there is to it. Hope that helps you kids some. Thank mee. Too bad Ed Sullivan isn't on, any more. Yup.
Houseless! I’ve not heard that one. With the PNW being coastal and therefore more advanced than I am here in flyover country, I accept your superior wokeNess. I just slapped my own hand.
Regionalisms. :)
And I'm not particularly "woke"--I'd like to have seen a swift, decisive response to our homeless situation, but instead, we've just stood around wringing our hands for years and passing unhelpful legislation while the problem grew like the Blob.
Regionalisms. :)
Well, I live in the PNW, and when we did our County annual point-in-time survey, it used the term "homeless"
The 2022 San Juan County “Point-In Time” Homeless Count identified 146 people who have no stable place to live, an increase from the 2020 count of 133.
Of the 146 people identified as having no stable place to live, 58 people were living out of doors, in vehicles, in abandoned buildings, or in an RV or boat that lacked one of the following: drinking water, a restroom, heat, the ability to cook food, or the ability to bathe.
The remaining 88 were at risk of homelessness. These families reside in temporary, unstable living arrangements with family and/or friends, or live in substandard housing. The 2020 count found 66 homeless and 67 at risk of homelessness. In 2019, the count found 67 people homeless and 82 at risk of homelessness. Due to COVID-19 concerns no Point in Time Count was held in Washington in 2021.
Well, I live in the PNW, and when we did our County annual point-in-time survey, it used the term "homeless"
Maybe "houseless" is an Oregon neologism--one they can retire any time, IMO.
"What’s Next in Portland’s Strategy for Houselessness?
Parsing the latest developments at a critical juncture in Portland’s housing debate" --Portland Monthly
flowerseverywhere
11-7-22, 6:11am
Tradd, living in a state full of retirees I find many who are out of touch with current reality. People rejoiced when DenSantis (or as Trump called him, Ron Desactimonious) using millions of state funds flew Texas legal immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard however are happy we don’t have expanded Medicare. So many working poor have no health insurance and use ER’s and urgent care for their routine care. It makes no financial sense. But hey, I got mine and if you only worked harder. I know many women who had husbands/boyfriends left them with kids and no support who needed help and managed to become tax paying workers. Medical bills, sudden job loss, rising rents, no pension and not making enough to save in IRA type vehicles.
the odds are stacked against the poor, the Mentally ill,and women who get no child support owed to them. Plus single, childless people. But many of the richest people (politicians included) had forgiven PPP loans, others have greatly benefited from the stock market and rising home equity, and now rising rents. But the poor, let them eat cake if they can’t afford bread.
Tradd, living in a state full of retirees I find many who are out of touch with current reality. People rejoiced when DenSantis (or as Trump called him, Ron Desactimonious) using millions of state funds flew Texas legal immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard however are happy we don’t have expanded Medicare. So many working poor have no health insurance and use ER’s and urgent care for their routine care. It makes no financial sense. But hey, I got mine and if you only worked harder. I know many women who had husbands/boyfriends left them with kids and no support who needed help and managed to become tax paying workers. Medical bills, sudden job loss, rising rents, no pension and not making enough to save in IRA type vehicles.
the odds are stacked against the poor, the Mentally ill,and women who get no child support owed to them. Plus single, childless people. But many of the richest people (politicians included) had forgiven PPP loans, others have greatly benefited from the stock market and rising home equity, and now rising rents. But the poor, let them eat cake if they can’t afford bread.
Yes, absolutely. As those here on this forum who have worked in healthcare are aware, healthcare is just one of the societal trap doors that can turn people into one of "the poors." I listen to patient stories all day long, like the young single mother who worked two jobs until she got diagnosed with breast cancer. She had to quit one of the jobs--reducing her income, but she was between a rock and a hard place with the other one: she could either stay in the job that provided her with health insurance which she very desperately needed, or she could quit and lose the insurance. Problem was, she worked in a healthcare facility which put her at increase health risk because she was immunocompromised.
That is just the tip of the iceberg. "There but for the grace of God go I" is what the 'non-poors' should be saying. Instead they gloat and point fingers.
Are there people who abuse the system? Yes, but the system also abuses.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 8:56am
Tradd, living in a state full of retirees I find many who are out of touch with current reality. People rejoiced when DenSantis (or as Trump called him, Ron Desactimonious) using millions of state funds flew Texas legal immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard however are happy we don’t have expanded Medicare. So many working poor have no health insurance and use ER’s and urgent care for their routine care. It makes no financial sense. But hey, I got mine and if you only worked harder. I know many women who had husbands/boyfriends left them with kids and no support who needed help and managed to become tax paying workers. Medical bills, sudden job loss, rising rents, no pension and not making enough to save in IRA type vehicles.
the odds are stacked against the poor, the Mentally ill,and women who get no child support owed to them. Plus single, childless people. But many of the richest people (politicians included) had forgiven PPP loans, others have greatly benefited from the stock market and rising home equity, and now rising rents. But the poor, let them eat cake if they can’t afford bread.
I will remind you that President Obama pushed through his Affordable Care insurance plan because it was affordable, it is even in the name of the Act!. Everyone could afford it. Premiums are based on a percentage of your income.
He said:
“…millions of Americans who don’t have health insurance because they’ve been priced out of the market or because they’ve been denied access because of a preexisting condition, they will finally be able to buy quality, affordable health insurance. (Applause.) In five days. (Applause.) “
So it’s unclear to me after that giant piece of legislation that changed everyone’s lives, not just those who didn’t/don’t have insurance, why people don’t have insurance.Why is that? Could it be they don’t chose to responsibly cover their families with insurance?
I just heard about an Instagram influencer whose child became very ill and he was taken via LifeFlight to a specialist hospital. Life flights are $35,000, just the tip of the iceberg for that hospital bill. They have no insurance yet CHIPS insurance for children and their state is FREE. It costs nothing. This lack of insurance is a CHOICE she made.
Congress is always making laws and presidents are always signing bills to make things better and affordable, and many are always complaining because things are not better or affordable.
I guarantee you that universal healthcare will come with people who think it’s not enough, people who are unhappy because the government lead services they get are not good enough, etc. etc.
You mentioned up thread Joe Biden signing yet another drug bill to make things yet again affordable. So it’s finally affordable now and there will be no more drug bills? I do hope so. That’s a relief that we won’t have to hear any more complaints about expensive drugs.
Tradd, living in a state full of retirees I find many who are out of touch with current reality. People rejoiced when DenSantis (or as Trump called him, Ron Desactimonious) using millions of state funds flew Texas legal immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard however are happy we don’t have expanded Medicare. So many working poor have no health insurance and use ER’s and urgent care for their routine care. It makes no financial sense. But hey, I got mine and if you only worked harder. I know many women who had husbands/boyfriends left them with kids and no support who needed help and managed to become tax paying workers. Medical bills, sudden job loss, rising rents, no pension and not making enough to save in IRA type vehicles.
the odds are stacked against the poor, the Mentally ill,and women who get no child support owed to them. Plus single, childless people. But many of the richest people (politicians included) had forgiven PPP loans, others have greatly benefited from the stock market and rising home equity, and now rising rents. But the poor, let them eat cake if they can’t afford bread.
I will definitely agree with you on retirees of all political stripes. Many don’t give a sh*t about anyone else.
The problems, as I see it, IL:
1. Healthcare doesn't have to be such a major expense. I've done pricing studies for pharmaceuticals and medical devices. The research is designed to test price sensitivity. In other words, it doesn't matter how much they've invested in the development of the product, they will push the price up until people squeak.
2. In a typical "what the market will bear" scenario, that would be fine, but the problem in this case is, people don't squeak, because a) there are other people who profit from the high prices and b) there are so many layers between the health care professional who prescribes and the patient who takes that the impact of the price is diluted.
3. The employer-based healthcare model simply makes no sense and leaves a lot of people without insurance. To your point above, why don't they sign up? Well, there's the example I gave of the woman who couldn't work but needed the insurance. Are you saying she wasn't a responsible mother, even though she was working two jobs at the time of the diagnosis? There are certainly people who have been cavalier about signing up--typically young people who think they're invincible, but there are resources for them.
4. The structures that built this system that gives us the dubious honor of having the highest healthcare costs per capita in the world, but with less than stellar health outcomes is to blame--not the poor people who wind up sick or hurt.
Healthcare insurance tied to employment began during World War II in the US. There were wage caps and such. Employers started offered other benefits to attract employees and health insurance was one of them.
Healthcare insurance tied to employment began during World War II in the US. There were wage caps and such. Employers started offered other benefits to attract employees and health insurance was one of them.
That's right, Tradd. That model has now outlived its usefulness.
That's right, Tradd. That model has now outlived its usefulness.
Agreed. I was just adding context for those unaware.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 9:52am
Healthcare insurance tied to employment began during World War II in the US. There were wage caps and such. Employers started offered other benefits to attract employees and health insurance was one of them.
I agree that health insurance tied to insurance is just… Weird. But because we have other avenues of getting health insurance now Due to the ACA which I thought was supposed to solve everyone’s problem, why do people choose not to take it?
iris lilies
11-7-22, 9:55am
The problems, as I see it, IL:
1. Healthcare doesn't have to be such a major expense. I've done pricing studies for pharmaceuticals and medical devices. The research is designed to test price sensitivity. In other words, it doesn't matter how much they've invested in the development of the product, they will push the price up until people squeak.
2. In a typical "what the market will bear" scenario, that would be fine, but the problem in this case is, people don't squeak, because a) there are other people who profit from the high prices and b) there are so many layers between the health care professional who prescribes and the patient who takes that the impact of the price is diluted.
3. The employer-based healthcare model simply makes no sense and leaves a lot of people without insurance. To your point above, why don't they sign up? Well, there's the example I gave of the woman who couldn't work but needed the insurance. Are you saying she wasn't a responsible mother, even though she was working two jobs at the time of the diagnosis? There are certainly people who have been cavalier about signing up--typically young people who think they're invincible, but there are resources for them.
4. The structures that built this system that gives us the dubious honor of having the highest healthcare costs per capita in the world, but with less than stellar health outcomes is to blame--not the poor people who wind up sick or hurt.
I believe you about the Market pricing studies, that just makes sense.
The mother who has breast cancer has options. You did not mention them.
Yes, she has to go on Medicaid. We had a cancer victim here on this board years ago who said Medicaid cancer coverage is stellar. Medicaid coverage is attractive for at least one multi millionaire who used to hang out on this board, and I suspect more.
I agree that health insurance tied to insurance is just… Weird. But because we have other avenues of getting health insurance now Due to the ACA which I thought was supposed to solve everyone’s problem, why do people choose not to take it?
Maybe they still can’t afford it, even with the increased subsidies?
iris lilies
11-7-22, 9:59am
Maybe they still can’t afford it, even with the increased subsidies?
So, people get to determine what they can afford? President Obama doesn’t get to determine that? That is a revolutionary thought!
Yet, the ACA law dictates they have to have insurance. What a conundrum. Not only do they have to have insurance, they have to have insurance that provides a, B, C, D etc.
As for the cost of individual healthcare treatment, yes it’s out of control and it’s crazy. The average person can’t wrap their heads around that nor can I. I don’t know what it “should” cost. I just know that we have some of the best treatment centers if not THE best in the world. The fact that some outcomes are bad… That has a lot to do with the populace that’s being treated. Obesity, poverty, those who ignore good health initiatives, etc. all have a major affect on outcomes.
And certainly it’s true that not everyone gets the same level of treatment. That’s just not going to happen. There is a standard of care that most people do get. Others get care above and beyond that. That is a model I can live with.
flowerseverywhere
11-7-22, 10:05am
I will remind you that President Obama pushed through his Affordable Care insurance plan because it was affordable, it is even in the name of the Act!. Everyone could afford it. Premiums are based on a percentage of your income.
He said:
“…millions of Americans who don’t have health insurance because they’ve been priced out of the market or because they’ve been denied access because of a preexisting condition, they will finally be able to buy quality, affordable health insurance. (Applause.) In five days. (Applause.) “
So it’s unclear to me after that giant piece of legislation that changed everyone’s lives, not just those who didn’t/don’t have insurance, why people don’t have insurance.Why is that? Could it be they don’t chose to responsibly cover their families with insurance?
I just heard about an Instagram influencer whose child became very ill and he was taken via LifeFlight to a specialist hospital. Life flights are $35,000, just the tip of the iceberg for that hospital bill. They have no insurance yet CHIPS insurance for children and their state is FREE. It costs nothing. This lack of insurance is a CHOICE she made.
Congress is always making laws and presidents are always signing bills to make things better and affordable, and many are always complaining because things are not better or affordable.
I guarantee you that universal healthcare will come with people who think it’s not enough, people who are unhappy because the government lead services they get are not good enough, etc. etc.
You mentioned up thread Joe Biden signing yet another drug bill to make things yet again affordable. So it’s finally affordable now and there will be no more drug bills? I do hope so. That’s a relief that we won’t have to hear any more complaints about expensive drugs.
The ACA at least made healthcare available but affording it is out of many peoples reach. it certainly is not perfect. I'm still waiting for Trumps health plan that would Cover more, cost less and is coming in two weeks. Or the replace part of repeal and replace we heard about for years. Believe me, if anyone has a better solution for the healthcare system here please tell us. I see no solution except to make only the upper middle class able to afford the best healthcare.
flowerseverywhere
11-7-22, 10:07am
Tradd, I agree many many people regardless of political leanings are very callous towards the poor. Regardless of how you ended up in trouble many will consider it your fault.
catherine
11-7-22, 10:11am
I believe you about the Market pricing studies, that just makes sense.
The mother who has breast cancer has options. You did not mention them.
Yes, she has to go on Medicaid. We had a cancer victim here on this board years ago who said Medicaid cancer coverage is stellar. Medicaid coverage is attractive for at least one multi millionaire who used to hang out on this board, and I suspect more.
Two things here:
1) 8% of people are uninsured for various reasons (an all-time low), according to this article: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/number-of-uninsured-americans-drops-to-an-all-time-low
Only 2% of children are uninsured.
2) This article talks about who is uninsured https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue-brief/key-facts-about-the-uninsured-population/
Who are the uninsured?
Most uninsured people have at least one worker in the family. Families with low incomes are more likely to be uninsured. Reflecting the more limited availability of public coverage in some states, adults are more likely to be uninsured than children. People of color are at higher risk of being uninsured than non-Hispanic White people.
–
Why are people uninsured?
Even under the ACA, many uninsured people cite the high cost of insurance as the main reason they lack coverage. In 2019, 73.7% of uninsured adults said that they were uninsured because the cost of coverage was too high. Many people do not have access to coverage through a job, and some people, particularly poor adults in states that did not expand Medicaid, remain ineligible for financial assistance for coverage. Additionally, undocumented immigrants are ineligible for Medicaid or Marketplace coverage.
As for the woman I mentioned who has "options" within the boundaries of being devastatingly sick, losing her income sources, and having to keep feeding her kids, Medicaid is joint State/Federal body with the State having a lot of influence on eligibility adjudication. Some states are better than others. And trust me, that woman was doing whatever she could to continue to be a responsible person, keep her job, keep her insurance. In fact, her case was so sad, one of the other cancer victims in the focus group donated her compensation for being in the group to this woman. I'm not sure what her eligibility status is in her state.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 10:14am
The ACA at least made healthcare available but affording it is out of many peoples reach. it certainly is not perfect. I'm still waiting for Trumps health plan that would Cover more, cost less and is coming in two weeks. Or the replace part of repeal and replace we heard about for years. Believe me, if anyone has a better solution for the healthcare system here please tell us. I see no solution except to make only the upper middle class able to afford the best healthcare.
You can make fun of Donald Trump if you like, and Lord knows he’s a figure of comedy and much else, but he removed the ACA individual penalty. So it might be law that everyone is supposed to have health insurance, but if they don’t have it they didn’t have to pay that penalty.
Doesn’t that help the poor people we are talking about?
And while I do not like at all, AT ALL, Presidents flicking their pen to do things like this, his deletion of the ACA non-payment penalty removed, for me, the major obstacle of that giant piece of legislation. The only reason ACA was found constitutional is because of the “out “ of the required penalty.
President Joe Biden has not re-instituted the IRS penalty for individuals not having health insurance. Evidently he doesn’t like following the law either?
iris lilies
11-7-22, 10:34am
Tradd, I agree many many people regardless of political leanings are very callous towards the poor. Regardless of how you ended up in trouble many will consider it your fault.
That is far too simplistic a characterization, “your fault.”
I see many people in situations that are unfortunate, and they are there because of life choices. Sometimes it is a series of life choices they made that land them in a not so great place.
And with the fickle hand of fate, some people can make the same set of life choices and be perfectly OK, they don’t get caught up in the unfortunate consequences that others do, and sometimes that is just dumb luck.
I do think the formula is far less simple now for reaching a stable middle-class existence, but it still is wise to not reproduce extensively with a spouse who is unreliable. In other words, don’t have a bunch of kids with a deadbeat dad or a deadbeat mom.It is wise to put off childbearing for a while and get some sort of skill or education that makes one employable. This is good advice for both sexes, not just men or women.
And then take reasonable care of your health, and that is a good formula for weathering the storms life throws at us.
Some people are just more healthy than others throughout their lives. We don’t get to choose many of the health challenges thrown our way, it is a crapshoot.
IL, I’ve seen too many senior women suddenly single when their husbands throw them to the curb for someone younger. Not really a damn thing they can do about that. Most of the cases it was a surprise.
The pandemic did a number on a lot of people. If you worked in a restaurant, you were screwed. In the Chicago area, a LOT of mom and pop restaurants have closed. There’s always fast food, which is hiring for as much as $20/hour here and they offer getting paid the same day you work.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 10:42am
IL, I’ve seen too many senior women suddenly single when their husbands throw them to the curb for someone younger. Not really a damn thing they can do about that. Most of the cases it was a surprise.
The pandemic did a number on a lot of people. If you worked in a restaurant, you were screwed. In the Chicago area, a LOT of mom and pop restaurants have closed. There’s always fast food, which is hiring for as much as $20/hour here and they offer getting paid the same day you work.
Yes the restaurant workers and owners of restaurants certainly got screwed by government mandate shut downs. Fortunately, everyone is begging for employees now. The job market is great!
as for senior women thrown to the curb and through divorce, sure, but that’s what divorce laws cover. They get some assets. It is true that they may not be able to live the million dollar lifestyle they lived with their big bucks earning husband, but they will have a perfectly acceptable lifestyle.
For the senior age women who get divorced when there’s not a whole lot of household monies to divide, I would say well why aren’t there? Why isn’t she out there working to build up household monies if the kids are gone?
Divorce reduces everyone’s Lifestyle, there’s just no way around it.
One of the golden rules for building wealth from The Millionaire Next Door is: get married, don’t get divorced.
The divorce rate among college educated people who married after age 25 is quite a bit better than other demographics. It’s still high, but studies are showing that even in those cases of divorce, the joint parenting agreements are more successful.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 11:08am
Two things here:
1) 8% of people are uninsured for various reasons (an all-time low), according to this article: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/number-of-uninsured-americans-drops-to-an-all-time-low
Only 2% of children are uninsured.
2) This article talks about who is uninsured https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue-brief/key-facts-about-the-uninsured-population/
Who are the uninsured?
Most uninsured people have at least one worker in the family. Families with low incomes are more likely to be uninsured. Reflecting the more limited availability of public coverage in some states, adults are more likely to be uninsured than children. People of color are at higher risk of being uninsured than non-Hispanic White people.
–
Why are people uninsured?
Even under the ACA, many uninsured people cite the high cost of insurance as the main reason they lack coverage. In 2019, 73.7% of uninsured adults said that they were uninsured because the cost of coverage was too high. Many people do not have access to coverage through a job, and some people, particularly poor adults in states that did not expand Medicaid, remain ineligible for financial assistance for coverage. Additionally, undocumented immigrants are ineligible for Medicaid or Marketplace coverage.
As for the woman I mentioned who has "options" within the boundaries of being devastatingly sick, losing her income sources, and having to keep feeding her kids, Medicaid is joint State/Federal body with the State having a lot of influence on eligibility adjudication. Some states are better than others. And trust me, that woman was doing whatever she could to continue to be a responsible person, keep her job, keep her insurance. In fact, her case was so sad, one of the other cancer victims in the focus group donated her compensation for being in the group to this woman. I'm not sure what her eligibility status is in her state.
we have public programs to help mothers “feed their kids “. I pay taxes for that. I think you do too.
There’s no question that a major health problem like cancer is devastating to a family. There is no question.
I tire of arguments that do not recognize the social networks we have in place now. A large part of our U.S. federal budget goes to that. I can’t understand why people pretend it doesn’t exist. It’s not enough? OK, we could talk about that And certainly it is a huge struggle to make it on these government handouts, but to pretend the programs do not exist seems disingenuous.
Tradd, I agree, I see a lot of disdain online for the poor, and disdain for people who have ended up with less than the winners in this society.
I think this also makes people who do not have as much as the vocal people who have a lot go away, since who wants to be blamed for all their misfortune?
So this attitude is a real discussion killer, for sure. And I also agree about the plight of many older women, who have paid the price for societal sexism that has rewarded their spouse, as their spouse has exploited them over the years.
Good to look at who are the winner and who are the losers, and to ask if someone of the ones on third base really did hit a triple.
IL, what about the people who were making it okay and then this inflation comes along and tips them over the edge? Is that their fault?
As I’ve mentioned before, there seems a be a huge disconnect with people just being clueless that many working or middle class households are now really strained. The push for people to buy EVs is part of that. The people worst hit by high gas prices are nowhere near being able to afford an EV.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 11:58am
IL, what about the people who were making it okay and then this inflation comes along and tips them over the edge? Is that their fault?
As I’ve mentioned before, there seems a be a huge disconnect with people just being clueless that many working or middle class households are now really strained. The push for people to buy EVs is part of that. The people worst hit by high gas prices are nowhere near being able to afford an EV.
The inflation of gasoline to drive cars to get to work , that’s a huge problem for many people living on the edge. But is there is social service solution to that? Do we give everyone a break on taxes if they can show us a gas bill of X amount?
lifestyles choices you can do to mitigate the vagaries of the market, whether you agree with that market is caused in part by government action or not,, is to live close to work. Drive simple small vehicle to consume less gas. Live on a public transportation route.
Again, these are only choices to mitigate the ever fluctuating cost of goods and services. One has to plan for the future and know that high costs will come. And then they will go away. They will come again
I am amused at the youngsters who are so concerned about the prime lending rate going up a point or two for their mortgages. They could not wrap their heads around the rate I paid for my first house. They haven’t lived through times like that. So here I am an oldster talking about the equivalent of “I trudged through Miles in snow to get to school. “When in fact I’ve had it very easy. And now I’m on easy street because I was very very cautious with the money I had.
This reminds me that I have a friend in St. Louis who lives on a real Easy street ( a street with the name of Easy) and her street sign is stolen on the regular.
I didn’t say anything about a social service solution to the gas cost issue. My OP was about the attitude of many people towards “the poors.”
So you would tell people stretched by the cost of gas to move closer to work? Would they be able to find a place they could afford? It’s not uncommon for people to have longer commutes to have more affordable housing.
Regionalisms. :)
And I'm not particularly "woke"--I'd like to have seen a swift, decisive response to our homeless situation, but instead, we've just stood around wringing our hands for years and passing unhelpful legislation while the problem grew like the Blob.
I don’t think a swift, decisive solution is really possible absent a major recalibration of human nature. Working with Habitat for Humanity, which tries to screen candidates based on their work, credit and criminal histories for the tier of poor people capable of managing the obligations of home ownership, I’ve constantly distressed by how many of the people we help wind up losing their house due to anything from mortgage or tax default, inability to do the most basic maintenance or various criminal, family or drug issues. Working in local government, I’ve seen more cases of people physically destroying free or almost-free housing provided to them. Between deadbeat tenants and well-meaning but poorly considered government intervention, we seem to have lost the better part of a generation of small landlords.
I don’t attribute that necessarily to a widespread moral failure of the poor. There are any number of cultural and structural factors at play. Personally, I think we as a society would be better off if the old fashioned bourgeois values were more widely observed. But I think this is a problem area that won’t be solved by magic policy bullets.
Which is a great shame, considering how important housing can be for family stability, community involvement and wealth accumulation.
flowerseverywhere
11-7-22, 12:23pm
You can make fun of Donald Trump if you like, and Lord knows he’s a figure of comedy and much else, but he removed the ACA individual penalty. So it might be law that everyone is supposed to have health insurance, but if they don’t have it they didn’t have to pay that penalty.
Doesn’t that help the poor people we are talking about?
And while I do not like at all, AT ALL, Presidents flicking their pen to do things like this, his deletion of the ACA non-payment penalty removed, for me, the major obstacle of that giant piece of legislation. The only reason ACA was found constitutional is because of the “out “ of the required penalty.
I actually wasn’t making fun of Trump (for once). I was stating a fact. He promised a healthcare plan that was better, covered more people and was cheaper, over and over and over. Repealing the mandate did not do that at all
iris lilies
11-7-22, 1:00pm
I actually wasn’t making fun of Trump (for once). I was stating a fact. He promised a healthcare plan that was better, covered more people and was cheaper, over and over and over. Repealing the mandate did not do that at all
Republicans in Republican controlled Congress were unable to come up with a plan they all agreed on. The master negotiator who knows “ The Art of the Deal” was, in all if this, unable to bring his two or more sides of the same coin together. So here, I am agreeing with you. Trump could not make the deal.
This illustrates that once a giant comprehensive social program is in place, it is bloody hard to change its course.
Trump did the one single thing he could do, and that fixed the thing that bothered me the most: making it a mandatory insurance policy or else you pay a penalty.. Democrats made lots of noise about how this relaxation if the individual mandate would gut the ACA’s effectiveness. I don’t know, the ACA is still with us, yes? I would be interested in how many more people do not have health insurance due exclusively to relaxation if the individual penalty.
Also, President Biden has not reinstated the individual penalty. If the individual penalty was such an important piece of the ACA as claimed by Democrats, why didn’t President Biden reinstate it? He has the power.
Maybe they still can’t afford it, even with the increased subsidies?
I pay $1.37/month for my “low deductible Silver” plan here in WA. The coverage is pretty lame, and I only have one insurer available in this county, but still, not what I’d call terribly expensive.
I fantasize about what I would do if I found myself as a younger person these days without a job or particular skills and very little money to get started. I would probably do what I ended up doing with art being the only skill I had at the time. I went to work for the state university system starting with very menial clerical duties and working up to more advanced positions - comfy, often boring positions but always surrounded by very interesting people/students/projects to contribute my efforts to along with great benefits and a pension I am so grateful for. There are always ways to move forward but when all you can think about is how to get through a day, it is tough. I have been there and I sympathize. That being said, I also think there is a lot of stupid out there and I don't know if that's bad parenting or public education.
I often wonder why so little public opprobrium is reserved for the very rich, many of whom regularly avoid taxes, exploit workers, lie, cheat, steal, and generally flout social mores in their constant pursuit of ever more money. I guess we prefer to punch down.
Simplemind
11-7-22, 3:19pm
We also use the term Unhoused here in good old Oregon.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 4:17pm
I often wonder why so little public opprobrium is reserved for the very rich, many of whom regularly avoid taxes, exploit workers, lie, cheat, steal, and generally flout social mores in their constant pursuit of ever more money. I guess we prefer to punch down.
I don’t know, I see plenty of outrage about rich people, including those here, including dozens of posts by you, Jane.
Think what’s going on in this entire thread is the bias factor that we read things that we agree with. I have not seen one, not one, post making fun of poor people. I gallop through a lot of forums. I don’t read Twitter, I don’t look at TikTok videos, but I do consume a lot of YouTube and some of those YouTube videos are social commentary influencers. I guess maybe I’ll keep score in the next time I see something that is vaguely disrespectful or blaming/laming poor people for being poor I’ll make a check. I wonder how many checkmarks I will have in a few days? Just musing here, not meant as a rhetorical question.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 4:28pm
I didn’t say anything about a social service solution to the gas cost issue. My OP was about the attitude of many people towards “the poors.”
So you would tell people stretched by the cost of gas to move closer to work? Would they be able to find a place they could afford? It’s not uncommon for people to have longer commutes to have more affordable housing.
I would counsel a systemic approach to the vagaries of markets as I’ve already alluded to.
Build up a good cash emergency fund. Don’t spend every cent you have, get out of that habit. If you’re accustomed to spending X amount on gasoline every week when it’s low, sure, spending double that it’s going to hurt mightily. Plan for an eventuality an increase of cost of goods and services because it will happen. It always happens.
and look at what the environment DOES offer currently, and that is a very strong employment market. Maybe this is a time to get a new job that pays more. Maybe this is time to get a new job closer to where you live. Maybe this is time to take a part-time job to not only pay for the increases in gas and groceries, but to put some more money into the bank.
A strong job market is a wonderful thing to combat many things we’re talking about on this thread.
I don’t know, I see plenty of outrage about rich people, including those here, including dozens of posts by you, Jane. ...
Dozens? I'm glad to hear I'm such an advocate for the voiceless (not that I remember much discussion of our overlords here...)
iris lilies
11-7-22, 5:30pm
Dozens? I'm glad to hear I'm such an advocate for the voiceless (not that I remember much discussion of our overlords here...)
Do you want me to count? Haha. Between you and Catherine, animus to The Rich is thick around here.
But then, see, that is probably my own bias. Tradd asked if I see attitudes of disdain for the poor. I do not see that in my daily web interactions.
animus to The Rich is thick around here.
Are you implying that animus is not deserved? After a dozen or so years here I can reliably parrot that all rich people look like this. https://kingworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/KWN-Turk-I-462015-300x233.jpg
After a dozen or so years here I can reliably parrot that all rich people look like this. ...
And this is how they keep their wealth, by all accounts:
https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/scrooge-mcduck-money-bin.jpg
Do you want me to count? Haha. Between you and Catherine, animus to The Rich is thick around here.
Not fair--some of my best friends are rich.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 5:45pm
I don’t think a swift, decisive solution is really possible absent a major recalibration of human nature. Working with Habitat for Humanity, which tries to screen candidates based on their work, credit and criminal histories for the tier of poor people capable of managing the obligations of home ownership, I’ve constantly distressed by how many of the people we help wind up losing their house due to anything from mortgage or tax default, inability to do the most basic maintenance or various criminal, family or drug issues. Working in local government, I’ve seen more cases of people physically destroying free or almost-free housing provided to them. Between deadbeat tenants and well-meaning but poorly considered government intervention, we seem to have lost the better part of a generation of small landlords.
I don’t attribute that necessarily to a widespread moral failure of the poor. There are any number of cultural and structural factors at play. Personally, I think we as a society would be better off if the old fashioned bourgeois values were more widely observed. But I think this is a problem area that won’t be solved by magic policy bullets.
Which is a great shame, considering how important housing can be for family stability, community involvement and wealth accumulation.
As I was thinking about this thread today, I was thinking my usual thinky-thoughts about values. We here on this forum DO have bourgeois values that we assume everyone else has. That assumption is wrong. Many of the chronically poor do not have those values. You could also say they don’t have the skills and knowledge to carry out their lives according to middle class values and I suppose I would agree, but which comes first? Values? Then knowledge and skills? I dunno.
I have lived next door to public housing for decades. That experience turned me from a Democratic voter to a Republican voter. The chronically poor…it is more than lack of money. But that isn’t new, everyone knows that.
I have lived next door to public housing for decades. That experience turned me from a Democratic voter to a
Republican voter. The chronically poor…it is more than lack of money. But that isn’t new, everyone knows that.
It is more than lack of money. You raise great questions. And I do think about this a lot. I do sometimes get angry and frustrated even in the context of my own family--people who look to me for help who, honestly, didn't follow that maxim: "God helps those that help themselves." I have hung up from calls from them, walking away singing Bille Holiday's song, "God Bless the Child (That's Got His Own)."I have certainly veered over the center line to considering being a Republican (not often).
But then I think about how the VA has saved one family member, and I thank God. I think about how lucky I am to earn enough money to help out hapless family members who grew up without any life skills through no fault of their own, and I thank God for that.
I also think about the fishing concept of "bycatch." When fishermen throw their nets in the water, they expect some "bycatch"--fish that are caught in the nets but who aren't the fish they want. I feel like I'm willing to accept some "bycatch" (the "fish" who are taking advantage of the system) in order to benefit the people who truly need it (the "fish" I want).
I thank God also for having had the experience of the shame of poverty and family addiction. It helps me empathize.
And, as a postscript, I think it's the system that's messed up mostly. It perpetrates the societal problems we have. But that's a whole other conversation.
Among other influences, chronic malnutrition from conception on, non-stop stress, and endemic depression have to play a part.
I mostly amuse myself online with YouTube, and I don't see much discussion of the poor either, except from one Bellevue swell who rails endlessly about the homeless*. I mostly see Ukrainian battles and POW interviews, and heated discussions between vegans and keto/carnivores. And, of course, Australian tarot...:D
*There are very few homeless people in Bellevue.
littlebittybobby
11-7-22, 6:27pm
Okay---for whatever reason, our western culture has un-naturally subverted natural selection. See? The military won't accept people below a certain standard of um, sociability. . Yet, we still have these practice-wars going on in some nowhere hot-spot to keep in shape. So yeah--I advocate creating a draft, to put lowlife, aggressive, violence-prone, uneducable thugs in uniform, equip them with reconditioned, confiscated AR-15's and parachutes packed and ammo loaded by their conscripted baby-mommas back home. Kind of like the concept in the moooveee: ;'Dirty Dozen" Let Those People Protect Our Freedom! There are no other jobs that match their natural skillset, other than foobaw, homeless, or being a meth head thief. You betcha. Yup. Thank mee.
iris lilies
11-7-22, 6:56pm
Among other influences, chronic malnutrition from conception on, non-stop stress, and endemic depression have to play a part.
...
yes, I very much agree that malnutrition and stress influences start in the womb. Depression of all grades is a huge factor in our society, often unrecognized among poorer people.
littlebittybobby
11-7-22, 7:10pm
yes, I very much agree that malnutrition and stress influences start in the womb. Depression of all grades is a huge factor in our society, often unrecognized among poorer people.Yeah, but even with that, they can still pull the trigger on an assault rifle, to Fight For Your Freedom. Or whatever. I have read umpteen articles about how humains remains have been disinterred from around the globe, identified after much painstaking work as the Hero who died in action for the Freedom you take for granted, and casketed in a nice, shiny, NEW casket, and marched by a mill-0-terry color guard to the Hero's final resting spot, in one of our National Cemeteries. Cost a LOTTA dough, but it is worth it. Cheaper than supporting the so-called justice system. Right? Yup. See--I'm proposing an alternative, to thugs dying in a gang war, or an overdose, car chase, po-leese confron-tay-shun, etc.. Instead---they die for Your Freedom! Yup. Case Closed. Enough said.
flowerseverywhere
11-8-22, 6:31am
Another thing about the poor is poverty of spirit. Kids grow up raised by drug addicts or by grandparents who are too worn out by life to give them a good start. They are failures from the first day of school as they have never had books read to them and so on. They may have lower IQ’s and have no skills to pull themselves up by the bootstraps or mentors to help them. Some teachers are overwhelmed or may have given up due to the futility of it all. How can society possibly make up for what these kids lack? Of course some kids break through but it is an uphill climb.
Iris gave some great suggestions on handling money, but if you have nothing to look forward to it might seem futile to think about saving for the future if you have a future with no hope.
as for rich people, of course the overwhelming majority work hard, manage their money honestly, pay taxes, are loving parents and spouses and are good honest citizens. But they are not click bait. The cheaters, liars, greedy and so on are what we are bombarded with. Our internet/social media/24 hour news cycle world has bought out the worst in many people.
Another thing about the poor is poverty of spirit. Kids grow up raised by drug addicts or by grandparents who are too worn out by life to give them a good start. They are failures from the first day of school as they have never had books read to them and so on. They may have lower IQ’s and have no skills to pull themselves up by the bootstraps or mentors to help them. Some teachers are overwhelmed or may have given up due to the futility of it all. How can society possibly make up for what these kids lack? Of course some kids break through but it is an uphill climb.
Absolutely. On the education front in poor, urban areas, it's a war between the teachers who are honestly trying to do good and all the other societal forces kids are faced with. Even the kids with promise are constantly on the edge of making it or not.
One great book on education in a poor urban environment is Small Victories by Samuel Freedman (I think). It's an old book, published in the 90s, so there are no references to the damaging influence of social media, but it does shine a light on the difficulty teachers have for holding on to hope for the majority of their students
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