El Paso.....

[gimmethesimplelife]

What's your take on the migrant crisis in El Paso? I'm getting worried, I really am. Rob

[catherine]

What are you worried about, Rob?

[gimmethesimplelife]

What are you worried about, Rob?I worry about violence against the migrants. Rob

[Yppej]

I heard that asylum rules will be tightened and it's about time. Currently any violent thing that could happen to you is a cause for asylum, but you don't see people from the South Side of Chicago running up to Canada for asylum because some gang doesn't like them and might try to kill them. We can't solve the whole world's problems.

I do think the ban on people we do admit as refugees working while awaiting legal proceedings should be lifted as there is a labor shortage.

[iris lilies]

The border is a big giant mess. Our U.S. immigration policies need a major overhaul, but I do not know what the answer is. Fortunately the Democrats will be able to solve it all, no doubt.

[gimmethesimplelife]

The border is a big giant mess. Our U.S. immigration policies need a major overhaul, but I do not know what the answer is. Fortunately the Democrats will be able to solve it all, no doubt.For once I agree with your snark, IL. Given that Kamala Harris was tasked with being Border Czar and has done absolutely nothing in regards to the myraid issues at the Southern US border (other than making a brief speech last year in Guatemala City in which she said to potential migrants "Do not come" twice) - I share your lack of faith in Democrats finding border solutions.

Should we all be buying lottery tickets after my above statement LOL?

For the record I don't want a replay of the Trump Era border, either. Rob

[iris lilies]

For once I agree with your snark, IL. Given that Kamala Harris was tasked with being Border Czar and has done absolutely nothing in regards to the myraid issues at the Southern US border (other than making a brief speech last year in Guatemala City in which she said to potential migrants "Do not come" twice) - I share your lack of faith in Democrats finding border solutions.

Should we all be buying lottery tickets after my above statement LOL?

For the record I don't want a replay of the Trump Era border, either. Rob

The border is a big thorny mess and there’s no political will to bring clarity to it. No political will by either political side. It’s a difficult issue but they’ve shown us that they can’t do anything hard.

[gimmethesimplelife]

The border is a big thorny mess and there’s no political will to bring clarity to it. No political will by either political side. It’s a difficult issue but they’ve shown us that they can’t do anything hard.I also agree with you, IL, that there seems to be no political will on either side to come up with a saner border. Why do you think this is? Right now it's sure not making the Dems look good....Rob

[JaneV2.0]

Perhaps if they made an earnest bi-partisan run at it, we could make some progress.

[bae]

The border is a big thorny mess and there’s no political will to bring clarity to it. No political will by either political side. It’s a difficult issue but they’ve shown us that they can’t do anything hard.

I do not believe either side especially wants to resolve the situation and institute the sort of structural reform that would be necessary, since the existing situation provides them such a wonderful issue for rallying their "base", fund-raising, and getting press coverage.

Neither party especially seems to have much interest in real problem-solving or governance.

Fnord.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I suspect a lot of businesses using illegal immigrant labor like things just like they are. So they will complain there aren't enough workers, and anyway noone wants to do these jobs, we need illegal immigrants. Ok so suppose that's true, there aren't enough workers. Then why not grant large scale amnesty and make them citizens or at least some type of legal immigrant? But then labor protections like minimum wage would apply, especially to citizens. And I doubt employers of illegal immigrants want to be bound by that. They like the "I don't have to obey laws like minimum wage, and my employees don't have the legal right to do a darn thing about anything in the workplace no matter how bad, because they fear deportation" status quo I suspect. But what if no citizens would ever be willing to do certain jobs, minimum wage and other legal protections, or not? Then guest worker programs, but even that is limited to actual needs like agriculture, it's not unlimited.

Meanwhile with the status quo, the economy has come to rely on a set of workers for whom all the usual laws don't apply and that's hard to unwind.

There are political issues as well with immigration being very charged, and seemingly easily polarized between people who hate the arrival of more immigrants at all, and people who want open borders.

[jp1]

I see that DeSantis is going to have to up his cruelty factor if he hopes to win over republicans in his quest for the presidency. Kidnapping a bunch of asylum seekers and sending them to Martha's Vineyard when the weather is relatively nice? Amateur hour. Rounding up a bunch of immigrants without winter clothes and dumping them on the streets of DC on an 18 degree? That's a much more rockstar level Republican move. The fact that it was also Christmas Eve part is what truly makes it awesome. Abbott managed to tie his stunt in with the Christmas story really nicely!

[iris lilies]

I see that DeSantis is going to have to up his cruelty factor if he hopes to win over republicans in his quest for the presidency. Kidnapping a bunch of asylum seekers and sending them to Martha's Vineyard when the weather is relatively nice? Amateur hour. Rounding up a bunch of immigrants without winter clothes and dumping them on the streets of DC on an 18 degree? That's a much more rockstar level Republican move. The fact that it was also Christmas Eve part is what truly makes it awesome. Abbott managed to tie his stunt in with the Christmas story really nicely!


Shouldnt be a problem* for DC area shelters and woke folks to take in immigrants immediately. I wouldn’t think anyone has to suffer long due to the largesse of DC people especially politicians. Don’t you think every Democratic Congressman has opened up their Beltway home to these immigrants? And why not, the Congressmen and their families are gone, they are celebrating Holidays in their home district.
Seems like a win-win to me.

* I know nothing about this from news sources, am only riffing on what you present. What you say may or may not be true.

[befree]

No easy answers to this problem anywhere. In the U.S., illegal immigration has switched from almost all Mexican nationals to folks from Venezuela, Cuba, Haiti, even Russia, who now come in via Mexico. In Europe, it's nationals from sub-Sahara Africa and the Middle East. Border cities like El Paso and Del Rio are completely overwhelmed; they don't have the shelter, food, medical care to care for them. Should we set up a guest-worker type of program? Should we bus able-bodied undocumented workers to areas that need unskilled labor? Should we house them in refugee camps, as they did in Europe with Displaced Persons after WWII? What should we do about our own citizens who may be victims of domestic abuse or gang violence, who might also want relocation, housing? Should Congress vote on removing the provision that all who are born in the U.S. are automatically citizens of the U.S.? We have had this issue for decades, and neither the Republican nor Democratic administrations seem to be able to work out any viable solution.

[frugal-one]

Shouldn't be a problem* for DC area shelters and woke folks to take in immigrants immediately. I wouldn’t think anyone has to suffer long due to the largesse of DC people especially politicians. Don’t you think every Democratic Congressman has opened up their Beltway home to these immigrants? And why not, the Congressmen and their families are gone, they are celebrating Holidays in their home district.
Seems like a win-win to me.

* I know nothing about this from news sources, am only riffing on what you present. What you say may or may not be true.[/QUOTE]


WTH… Should be you done to you then

[Alan]

I see that DeSantis is going to have to up his cruelty factor if he hopes to win over republicans in his quest for the presidency. Kidnapping a bunch of asylum seekers and sending them to Martha's Vineyard when the weather is relatively nice? Amateur hour. Rounding up a bunch of immigrants without winter clothes and dumping them on the streets of DC on an 18 degree? That's a much more rockstar level Republican move. The fact that it was also Christmas Eve part is what truly makes it awesome. Abbott managed to tie his stunt in with the Christmas story really nicely!
Where does the Biden administration send the thousands and thousands of migrants they relocate? I wonder why the Daily Kos and Huffington Post don't send you alerts on that?

[rosarugosa]

Lifelong New Englander here, and I will say that the temps yesterday made it actually painful to walk from the house to the car, even in my nice warm LL Bean coat.

Befree is right; it is such a complex problem. We certainly don't have the capacity to absorb and care for everyone who wants to live here, but it seems like there has to be some better way to manage the situation than what we've been doing, and these people should be treated in a compassionate and respectful manner.

[jp1]

Where does the Biden administration send the thousands and thousands of migrants they relocate? I wonder why the Daily Kos and Huffington Post don't send you alerts on that?

By all means do tell us about where the biden administration sends immigrants. I love a good ‘bothsidesism’ story.

[jp1]

Shouldnt be a problem* for DC area shelters and woke folks to take in immigrants immediately. I wouldn’t think anyone has to suffer long due to the largesse of DC people especially politicians. Don’t you think every Democratic Congressman has opened up their Beltway home to these immigrants? And why not, the Congressmen and their families are gone, they are celebrating Holidays in their home district.
Seems like a win-win to me.

* I know nothing about this from news sources, am only riffing on what you present. What you say may or may not be true.

You’re undoubtedly correct that they will be treated better in DC than they would have been in the shithole state where they got on the buses.

[Alan]

By all means do tell us about where the biden administration sends immigrants.
I have no idea, the media doesn't seem interested in reporting on it unless their preferred audience gives them clicks, and they won't unless there's a DeSantis or Abbott in the header. Of course we all know that roughly 2,750,000 people entering in FY'22 have to be somewhere.

[iris lilies]

You’re undoubtedly correct that they will be treated better in DC than they would have been in the shithole state where they got on the buses.
Awwww, I love it when we are simpatico jp!

:)

[jp1]

I have no idea, the media doesn't seem interested in reporting on it unless their preferred audience gives them clicks, and they won't unless there's a DeSantis or Abbott in the header. Of course we all know that roughly 2,750,000 people entering in FY'22 have to be somewhere.

I guess my question is whether the biden administration is making lying promises to people if they will just get on a bus to somewhere or if there’s some other system to moving people about. Or frankly if they aren’t shipping people anywhere, which seems the most likely since undoubtedly infowars and Fox and other right wing media would be all over it if there was anything to report.

I do find fascinating though that in Republican Jesus world the real hero of the Jesus birth story seems to be the innkeeper that turned mary and Joseph away.

[Alan]

I do find fascinating though that in Republican Jesus world the real hero of the Jesus birth story seems to be the innkeeper that turned mary and Joseph away.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. Is it a reference to Venezuelans and Cubans being turned away at the border?

[jp1]

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Is it a reference to Venezuelans and Cubans being turned away at the border?

Nothing so dramatic. It’s a reference to republicans being pleased that immigrants are treated like worthless political props and not worthy of being treated with dignity as human beings.

[iris lilies]

Nothing so dramatic. It’s a reference to republicans being pleased that immigrants are treated like worthless political props and not worthy of being treated with dignity as human beings.
I think it’s great that the state of California has a strong economy and excess state money and they would be able to take so many of these nearby refugees As they already have a pretty strong immigrant population. So good for you guys!

[jp1]

I think it’s great that the state of California has a strong economy and excess state money and they would be able to take so many of these nearby refugees As I already have a pretty strong immigrant population. So good for you guys!

I agree. Bring on the immigrants. They will be better treated than they would be in a crappy state like Missouri. And unlike your shitty state we can afford to treat them like human beings.

[sweetana3]

Indiana has a large immigrant population. We are a center for Burmese (Myanmar) refugees. We also have our own Mexican consulate. But affordable housing is in short supply as it is in many large cities. One of our successful elementary schools is almost 80% English as a Second Language.

I think Indiana is pretty middle of the road and ignored for most social discourse in the media.

[Tradd]

How does CA with its expensive real estate prices house all these folks?

[LDAHL]

I agree. Bring on the immigrants. They will be better treated than they would be in a crappy state like Missouri. And unlike your shitty state we can afford to treat them like human beings.

I would have thought someone who lives in a town that has to employ a “poop patrol” might be more self-aware than to refer to other places with such scatological invective.

[Teacher Terry]

The solution would be to help their countries stabilize because we cannot continue to take in all the refugees.

[iris lilies]

How does CA with its expensive real estate prices house all these folks?

5043

This is the housing déjouer* for citizens provided by the government of Los Angeles. And not surprisingly, as government’s wont, it costs more per person than average LA rent according to article below. Viva la government!


https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/greater-la/homeless-rampart-village-housing-weed/safe-sleep-la-official-campground

* i meant to say “de jour” But my translation program substituted “déjouer” which, when I looked it up, seems more appropriate.

[iris lilies]

I agree. Bring on the immigrants. They will be better treated than they would be in a crappy state like Missouri. And unlike your shitty state we can afford to treat them like human beings.
I have lived with transient people invading my neighborhood, even on my block. They scatter debris and feces, set fires, break into buildings and destroy property. Yes they are today’s homeless a.k.a. “unhoused “and one or two such persons are disruptive to our neighborhood so I can envision what block long tent encampments do to stability of a region.

[jp1]

I have lived with transient people invading my neighborhood, even on my block. They scatter debris and feces, set fires, break into buildings and destroy property. Yes they are today’s homeless a.k.a. “unhoused “and one or two such persons are disruptive to our neighborhood so I can envision what block long tent encampments do to stability of a region.

So you think immigrants and homeless people are one and the same? Personally the immigrants I come in contact with tend to be hard working people trying to make a good life for themselves and their families.

[JaneV2.0]

Immigrants are a completely different group of people than the drugged up or hopelessly demented majority of the unhoused populations I'm aware of here.

[bae]

Immigrants are a completely different group of people than the drugged up or hopelessly demented majority of the unhoused populations I'm aware of here.

Where I live:

- the immigrants tend to own/operate small businesses, or work for them, and seem to be highly productive members of the community

- homeless category #1 seems to be locals down-on-their-luck because of housing costs/shortages here, and the difficulties of securing year-round employment (our economy is highly seasonal). They tend to get back on their feet once they locate housing (which can take a year or more), or move off-island.

- homeless category #2 seems to be off-islanders coming here because it is a nice place, and they tend to be grifters who do not contribute, but rather take. Often they are not MI, or poor, and they tend to be younger wanna-be hippies

- homeless category #3 seems to be people with MI/substance abuse issues, from off-island. They had to put together ~$50 or so simply to get here, and there are very few social support services available.

When well-meaning people in the community built a restroom/shower facility in the middle of our village's green, the number of people in categories 2 & 3 increased, and tent encampments developed in the constructed wetlands and the forest space that are part of the green, and the nice band-stand/stage there. The area became increasingly dangerous at night, and the brand-new children's play area that is part of the green is a bit sketchy now.

My S&R group used to use that whole area as a training ground for search, we don't do so now because it isn't believed to be safe for stashing the search "victim" after dark.

When I ran the airport, which is very near by, we removed a few acres of trees that were in the forest adjoining the green, as they were getting too tall and intruding into the airspace needed for the runway. The volume of trash, tents, and vile refuse that was discovered and removed during that process was amazing.

Our yearly "point in time" homeless survey I believe significantly undercounts the population of homeless trying to survive even out here.

The recent absurd cold spell and storm was quite difficult for people.

Well-meaning folks here often think the "homeless problem" is a single problem, but it is quite complicated. I ran the County's Planning Commission for many years, and served on our Housing Commission as well, and don't see any easy solutions. My sister runs the Community Resource Center, and works endless hours trying to help people as best as we can with the resources we have.

Looking a bit south towards Seattle, they have spent endless millions over the past decade trying to address their homeless problem, and have had no success.

[iris lilies]

So you think immigrants and homeless people are one and the same? Personally the immigrants I come in contact with tend to be hard working people trying to make a good life for themselves and their families.
No, the groups are not one and the same, but the need for housing and social care is one and the same.

Good luck with it all.

[jp1]

No, the groups are not one and the same, but the need for housing and social care is one and the same.

Good luck with it all.

It's a lot easier to help people who are functional human beings that just want opportunity to work and succeed than it is to help people with MI and/or substance abuse problems. The first group may not even need much help at all if they already have family/friends here that are settled. There really isn't much similarity between the two groups.

[iris lilies]

It's a lot easier to help people who are functional human beings that just want opportunity to work and succeed than it is to help people with MI and/or substance abuse problems. The first group may not even need much help at all if they already have family/friends here that are settled. There really isn't much similarity between the two groups.

Yet in this theoretical world California will have to house them so what are they going to do, kick the tent dwellers out of the tent so that the refugees can take over the tents? Sounds like a plan!

[bae]

The claim is made that within the next few decades, hundreds of millions of people will become "climate refugees", as climate change alters different regions.

Some number of them will wish to come to the USA. Since the US has been one of the major contributors to climate change (we are roughly tied with China in total, and more per-capita than China), what is our responsibility? What is our plan?

We surely can't just drop them all off outside a politician's residence in Washington DC during sub-zero weather, right?

[iris lilies]

The claim is made that within the next few decades, hundreds of millions of people will become "climate refugees", as climate change alters different regions.

Some number of them will wish to come to the USA. Since the US has been one of the major contributors to climate change (we are roughly tied with China in total, and more per-capita than China), what is our responsibility? What is our plan?

We surely can't just drop them all off outside a politician's residence in Washington DC during sub-zero weather, right?
Are those the guys who can draft a plan to address border issues?

[littlebittybobby]

Okay---round up all the undesirables, and place them in camps in sparsely-inhabited ares of utah, arizona, and nevada. What they can do is recover mineral resources, using labor-intensive methods that would not be profitable for private companies. At the end of the work day, each internee can exchange his haul for food and a place to sleep at night. Use troops with a shoot-to-kill mandate for attempted escapees or troublemakers. Problem solved. It worked for two other major European Countries, so it MUST be a good solution, right?

[Rogar]

Are those the guys who can draft a plan to address border issues?

I haven't heard either side draft a plan to address the border issues?

Surely dumping poorly clothed immigrant in the middle of winter at the VP house is a cheap political trick at some humanitarian expense.

I have an acquaintance who volunteers at a soup kitchen serving mostly homeless, but not necessarily immigrants. Her breakdown was a third have mental health issues, a third have addiction problems along with the mental health issues, and a third are innocent victims of the high cost of housing or other economic problems or just choose that alternative lifestyle. My take would be that the third category is a much smaller percentage. Brother, who retired as a social worker, says a majority of them should be institutionalized for treatments.

[jp1]

Yet in this theoretical world California will have to house them so what are they going to do, kick the tent dwellers out of the tent so that the refugees can take over the tents? Sounds like a plan!

They are going to get jobs. Why would they live in tents. Despite the stories they apparently must be telling you on right wing nut job media most people in California with jobs live in houses or apartments. Even the immigrant farm workers in the central valley, which is about as low on the California jobs ladder as one can go, have housing.

[iris lilies]

They are going to get jobs. Why would they live in tents. Despite the stories they apparently must be telling you on right wing nut job media most people in California with jobs live in houses or apartments. Even the immigrant farm workers in the central valley, which is about as low on the California jobs ladder as one can go, have housing.
Oh for heaven sakes it’s just common sense that any new resident is going to take a minute to get oriented before they jump into full on capitalistic participation where they become productive tax paying citizens. And then you throw in language barriers and cultural changes and that adds a little more time there.

[jp1]

Oh for heaven sakes it’s just common sense that any new resident is going to take a minute to get oriented before they jump into full on capitalistic participation where they become productive tax paying citizens. And then you throw in language barriers and cultural changes and that adds a little more time there.

Yes, of course they are. But the whole Bs argument that immigrants will somehow be a perpetual drag on society akin to the homeless is just silliness. But I guess when the leader of one of our political parties called Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers I suppose it’s not surprising that some people actually believe that immigrants don’t have anything to contribute to the country they move to.

[bae]

But the whole Bs argument that immigrants will somehow be a perpetual drag on society akin to the homeless is just silliness.

Nizhónígo Késhmish Daʼdoohłeeł

https://peaceproject.com/wp-content/uploads/PC60.jpg

[gimmethesimplelife]

The solution would be to help their countries stabilize because we cannot continue to take in all the refugees.I'm at the point where I agree with you, TT. This can't keep going on forever and resources are finite - we can't take everyone. Rob

[JaneV2.0]

Oh for heaven sakes it’s just common sense that any new resident is going to take a minute to get oriented before they jump into full on capitalistic participation where they become productive tax paying citizens. And then you throw in language barriers and cultural changes and that adds a little more time there.

They will probably be sponsored until they can get on their feet; at least that's the way it used to be done.

[iris lilies]

Yes, of course they are. But the whole Bs argument that immigrants will somehow be a perpetual drag on society akin to the homeless …

But that wasn’t my argument.



…But I guess when the leader of one of our political parties called Mexican immigrants rapists and murderers I suppose it’s not surprising that some people actually believe that immigrants don’t have anything to contribute to the country they move to.

….and blah Blah blah orange man bad blah blah blah

[iris lilies]

They will probably be sponsored until they can get on their feet; at least that's the way it used to be done.
What do you mean by “sponsored? “

[jp1]

But that wasn’t my argument.


….and blah Blah blah orange man bad blah blah blah

So wtf WAS your argument?

My argument, in case it wasn’t clear, is that shitty people like Abbott and desantis like to inflict harm on the downtrodden to win the votes of sad sack assholes who think the hero of the Christmas story is the innkeeper. From what I can tell your argument seems to be that immigrants are just as much of a drain on society as homeless people are. Am I misunderstanding? If so please clarify where I went askew.

[iris lilies]

So wtf WAS your argument?
My arguement is that California can’t do a decent job with the unhoused people they have now so I do not believe that they will be able to take in an endless stream of undocumented persons and do a decent job with them either.

A related thought was since there will be lots and lots of unhoused people, California will see increased problems caused by the unhoused (hence my comment about transients.)

But since you, jp, think there is plenty of housing in California for the stream of undocumented workers coming over the southern border, they will not cause the problems that other unhoused people are causing in California. Ok.

[jp1]

My arguement is that California can’t do a decent job with the unhoused people they have now so I do not believe that they will be able to take in an endless stream of undocumented persons and do a decent job with them either.

A related thought was since there will be lots and lots of unhoused people, California will see increased problems caused by the unhoused (hence my comment about transients.)

But since you, jp, think there is plenty of housing in California for the stream of undocumented workers coming over the southern border, they will not cause the problems that other unhoused people are causing in California. Ok.

I get it. You live in a shitty place where there is no effort to care for people that need help. Now your weird focus on equating the homeless and immigrants as one and the same makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying. Glad I don’t live in a crappy place like you do.

[iris lilies]

I get it. You live in a shitty place where there is no effort to care for people that need help. Now your weird focus on equating the homeless and immigrants as one and the same makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying. Glad I don’t live in a crappy place like you do.
That’s the spirit! It is a shit hole! No one would want to move here!

But surely you can see that the “effort” that your state takes towards people who need help isn’t making an appreciable difference to those living on the street. At least, that is the story mainstream media likes to portray.

[Teacher Terry]

IL, California has a big homeless problem as we all know and frankly I no longer want to visit San Francisco because of it. Some of my friends feel differently. My second ex was just here with his wife and they walked probably 5 blocks downtown and said it’s not good for tourists to see so many homeless. One guy was shadow boxing an imaginary opponent so they crossed the street. Our population doubled in a year and is estimated at 2600. Probably more are invisible. I worry about us getting as bad as California.

I don’t really know what the solution is because institutions for people with MI were shit holes and they were abused. From what I have read the cities that tried housing first have limited success. I know someone that worked at the shelter for a while and was threatened by the clients. I am glad that I decided not to buy a condo downtown. I used to feel safe walking to my car alone after meeting my dining group if it was downtown but don’t now.

[jp1]

That’s the spirit! It is a shit hole! No one would want to move here!.

Judging from how cheap real estate is there our mutual assessment of the desirability of the place is probably accurate.

[pinkytoe]

Its always interesting to me when we take road trips on the back ways through small towns. Mexicans and other southern country immigrants have resettled there and opened little tiendas, cafes and other businesses. I assume they started off as farm workers and are setting up communities that feel like home.

[LDAHL]

California contains about 12% of the nation’s population and about 22% of the nation’s homeless. Sneering lectures from California on that subject have all the authority of the guy who considers himself to be an expert on marriage because he’s been married six times.

[JaneV2.0]

What do you mean by “sponsored? “

Churches and other organizations take refugees in and help them get on their feet. Apparently, they're in Federal detention unyil that happens--not wandering the streets of California.

https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/sponsor-freedom

[iris lilies]

Churches and other organizations take refugees in and help them get on their feet. Apparently, they're in Federal detention unyil that happens--not wandering the streets of California.

https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/sponsor-freedom

I thought you were referencing that program, faith based and other 501 c3 organizations.

You know their capacity is limited and cannot take on the flood of illegal immigrants pushing our borders, right? And that doesn’t even address those illegally here not under the watchful eye of the Feds in “detention.”, right?

And Imma gonna ask, why should they, faith based orgs, take on this huge social problem? No answer needed, just rhetorical.

And how many times have faith based social initiatives been maligned here on this forum let alone across liberal social media land? But when ya’ll want them they are invoked as The Answer.

[Teacher Terry]

One of my favorite charities is the Salvation Army and they do wonderful work. They are faith based.

[iris lilies]

One of my favorite charities is the Salvation Army and they do wonderful work. They are faith based.
We had up close experiences with them in the early decades of living in St. Louis and they do seem to walk the walk. If I were inclined to give to human-benefitting charities, I would consider them. Also, our local Methodist church in my old neighborhood has a pretty strong outreach program for struggling families so I would consider them, theoretically.

And then, two Catholic Churches in my immediate old neighborhood have homeless programs, one quite extensive. So the Catholics are doing their part too.

But My charitable contributions are not human centric. My giving interests are historic buildings and pets/animals.

The Catholic
Church I am planning to give big bucks to is the one in Hermann because their
Victorian church steeple forms the base of my Hermann view. That steeple is what convinced me to buy real estate in Hermann. I want to contribute to their building fund.

[Tradd]

From what I’ve seen, the SA gets good ratings for the amount of $$ used for programs. No big salaries for their head people.

[Teacher Terry]

In every state I have lived in they have been consistently wonderful. A couple that leads it in each city takes one small salary. They have helped so many of my clients.

[JaneV2.0]

I thought you were referencing that program, faith based and other 501 c3 organizations.

You know their capacity is limited and cannot take on the flood of illegal immigrants pushing our borders, right? And that doesn’t even address those illegally here not under the watchful eye of the Feds in “detention.”, right?

And Imma gonna ask, why should they, faith based orgs, take on this huge social problem? No answer needed, just rhetorical.

And how many times have faith based social initiatives been maligned here on this forum let alone across liberal social media land? But when ya’ll want them they are invoked as The Answer.

I think faith-based initiatives should focus on helping people. Isn't that why they get big tax breaks?

[iris lilies]

I think faith-based initiatives should focus on helping people. Isn't that why they get big tax breaks?
Nope, not in my reading of tax law summaries anyway. I mean “helping people” in the specific way of providing goods and services to those in need is not a requirement for churches.

But then, half of the organizations I belong to are tax exempt qualified charities. And they certainly do not provide anything to the needy. They are organized on the no-tax principle of “the public good. “

[jp1]

California contains about 12% of the nation’s population and about 22% of the nation’s homeless. Sneering lectures from California on that subject have all the authority of the guy who considers himself to be an expert on marriage because he’s been married six times.

Is it a sneering lecture when one is discussing immigrants and a person points out that comparing them to homeless people is a weird and illogical?

[rosarugosa]

I thought you were referencing that program, faith based and other 501 c3 organizations.

You know their capacity is limited and cannot take on the flood of illegal immigrants pushing our borders, right? And that doesn’t even address those illegally here not under the watchful eye of the Feds in “detention.”, right?

And Imma gonna ask, why should they, faith based orgs, take on this huge social problem? No answer needed, just rhetorical.

And how many times have faith based social initiatives been maligned here on this forum let alone across liberal social media land? But when ya’ll want them they are invoked as The Answer.

If they have to exist, I think it's good for them to have something useful to do, might help keep them out of trouble.

[iris lilies]

If they have to exist, I think it's good for them to have something useful to do, might help keep them out of trouble.
Haha well, no, but ok.

[iris lilies]

IL, California has a big homeless problem as we all know and frankly I no longer want to visit San Francisco because of it. Some of my friends feel differently. My second ex was just here with his wife and they walked probably 5 blocks downtown and said it’s not good for tourists to see so many homeless. One guy was shadow boxing an imaginary opponent so they crossed the street. Our population doubled in a year and is estimated at 2600. Probably more are invisible. I worry about us getting as bad as California.

I don’t really know what the solution is because institutions for people with MI were shit holes and they were abused. From what I have read the cities that tried housing first have limited success. I know someone that worked at the shelter for a while and was threatened by the clients. I am glad that I decided not to buy a condo downtown. I used to feel safe walking to my car alone after meeting my dining group if it was downtown but don’t now.

I havent been to San Francisco for decades but I remember how shocked I was to see the number of street people there at that time. I don’t want to see what it has since become.

Used to be San Fran held one of my win-the-lottery-fantasy residences, but no longer, largely due to this problem of excess unhoused people. Oh the residential architecture there is sublime tho!

[JaneV2.0]

I havent been to San Francisco for decades but I remember how shocked I was to see the number of street people there at that time. I don’t want to see what it has since become.

Used to be San Fran held one of my win-the-lottery-fantasy residences, but no longer, largely due to this problem of excess unhoused people. Oh the residential architecture there is sublime tho!

Think how glorious it would be without earthquakes and the Great Fire.

[sweetana3]

I loved loved loved SF in the 70s. Took my hubby decades later and decided it was more dangerous than NYC. In fact, I have never been more scared because being harassed by several obviously dangerous mentally ill people downtown.

[iris lilies]

I loved loved loved SF in the 70s. Took my hubby decades later and decided it was more dangerous than NYC. In fact, I have never been more scared because being harassed by several obviously dangerous mentally ill people downtown.
The first time I went I stayed in The Temderloin about 1993. Boy was that not so smart yet I was fine, I just was careful to not go out much in the dark. I remember there was a great, inexpensive Vietnamese restaurant on the corner.
So that plus my cheap motel room made my boss happy.

The next time I stayed in a super cheap hotel in Chinatown which was super safe and clean.Chinatown didnt put up with vagrants back then but I do not know how they are faring these days.

[iris lilies]

Think how glorious it would be without earthquakes and the Great Fire.
Speaking of glorious, not only is the residential architecture (quite a lot survived the fire) wonderful but temporate -loving plants spill out of window boxes and planters with abandon. It is a great city in which to have window boxes.

[JaneV2.0]

Speaking of glorious, not only is the residential architecture (quite a lot survived the fire) wonderful but temporate -loving plants spill out of window boxes and planters with abandon. It is a great city in which to have window boxes.

And the fog keeps moisture in the atmosphere!

[jp1]

The first time I went I stayed in The Temderloin about 1993. Boy was that not so smart yet I was fine, I just was careful to not go out much in the dark. I remember there was a great, inexpensive Vietnamese restaurant on the corner.
So that plus my cheap motel room made my boss happy.

The next time I stayed in a super cheap hotel in Chinatown which was super safe and clean.Chinatown didnt put up with vagrants back then but I do not know how they are faring these days.

The tenderloin is an odd quirk in America. In most American cities in the 70s/80s urban renewal came through like a steam roller and bulldozed most of the old rundown inner city neighborhoods. In San Francisco the residents of the tenderloin somehow beat that back and the neighborhood still largely exists. As a result all of those hotels like the Hilton and the Parc 55 that were built in the 70's with the expectation that they'd be in the middle of a redone neighborhood, are instead on the edge of the tenderloin.

As rough as it is, for some people the tenderloin is "home". The hotel where SO works is one of those edge tenderloin hotels. Several years ago they had someone check in who arrived on an ambulance gurney. He had reserved three contiguous rooms for an indefinite length of time. One for himself and his wife, one for his nurse, and one for his attorney. He had been born and raised in the tenderloin and wanted to die there. About two weeks later he had gotten his final wish and was wheeled out on another gurney. This time in a body bag and headed for a nearby funeral home.

[Teacher Terry]

I always stay in Japan town when I go there. It’s safe and clean but not cheap.

[iris lilies]

Is it a sneering lecture when one is discussing immigrants and a person points out that comparing them to homeless people is a weird and illogical?
Over on the Mr. Money Mustache website, a Denver area librarian is talking about the migrants who are hanging out in her public library today. They have been turned out on the street by their day shelter, can’t go back in. To be clear she is not complaining about this situation.

Kinda reminds of the unhoused men turned out of the big homeless shelter in downtown St. Louis, out on the streets for the day and across from Central Library, and hanging out at the library.

when that shelter closed, our library’s incident reports dropped 50%.

unhoused, unemployed, at loose ends and on the street…coming to a library near you especially if you are a border state.

[pinkytoe]

I read that the Boulder Library was closed recently due to meth contamination. Sad...

[bae]

Our library receives a lot of use by our homeless/poorly-housed population. It has heat, water, good Internet, places to work, conference rooms for training/interviewing, and access to lots of community resources.

There doesn't seem to be much trouble from this.

[jp1]

Over on the Mr. Money Mustache website, a Denver area librarian is talking about the migrants who are hanging out in her public library today. They have been turned out on the street by their day shelter, can’t go back in. To be clear she is not complaining about this situation.

Kinda reminds of the unhoused men turned out of the big homeless shelter in downtown St. Louis, out on the streets for the day and across from Central Library, and hanging out at the library.

when that shelter closed, our library’s incident reports dropped 50%.

unhoused, unemployed, at loose ends and on the street…coming to a library near you especially if you are a border state.

So are the teenagers that hang out in libraries after school as equally vile to you as immigrants and homeless people?

[iris lilies]

So are the teenagers that hang out in libraries after school as equally vile to you as immigrants and homeless people?
You are using the word “vile “I am not.

Teens who have a home to go to are a different population from street people.

[Teacher Terry]

JP, these issues aren’t as cut and dry as you make them appear. Librarians didn’t go to college to be social workers. However, they are doing the best they can to accommodate challenging populations. Homeless people aren’t a homogeneous group and have a variety of issues. Not the least of that they can stink something awful for obvious reasons or act out due to mental illness.

Another person on Mr MM was recently at the border and didn’t see the long lines of people waiting to get in as portrayed by the media. Also the media is not above using old footage to sway public opinion. Being retired for 11 years I am not familiar with any unique challenges that immigrants might bring except for the obvious language barrier and ptsd from trauma. I used to take my toddlers to story hour at the library and with libraries now in affect being a daytime shelter I am sure this has negatively impacted on those experiences.

IL was merely mentioning some of the issues for libraries from her experiences. I have spent my career in social services and have a lot of empathy for people. However, you can’t deny that the issues are complicated and there’s not one right solution.

Instead of letting in every person that wants to emigrate a better solution is to spend the money to help stabilize their countries. Also we have done the opposite with our meddling in other countries business that has actually led to destabilization.

[jp1]

I understand that IL is just presenting her perspective based on her experience. But her experience is mainly with homeless people. Not with immigrants. Which is the point that I keep pounding on. They both may not have a place to go during the day and wind up at the library, but I suspect the similarities mostly end there. One group is made up largely of people with MI and/or addiction problems and the other mostly isn't. Sure, the immigrant group may cause some issues for library staff who want to provide a quiet, serious place for people who want to read or study, but that is probably more out of boredom, not antisocial behavior, and the immigrant at libraries issue is probably more closely aligned with the issues that after school teens are likely to cause at a library, hence my reason for mentioning them.

I agree that there's not one right solution for immigration. And that with our polarized politics we aren't likely to reach any solution. But given the general shortage of employees we seem to have (unemployment is at a major lowpoint currently. And how many different threads have we had here about stores and restaurants with truncated hours because of lack of staffing?) I suspect that a rational plan to let in a somewhat larger amount of immigrants with permission to work would probably be a win all the way around. Stores and restaurants would be open longer because they could find enough staff. Libraries wouldn't have idle, bored immigrants who don't have working papers sitting around with nothing to do. Social security and medicare would be getting more revenue into their trusts to pay for today's old people's pensions and healthcare. I struggle to see a major downside.

[JaneV2.0]

In my limited library experience, teenagers were more of a problem than either the homeless (occasional visitors) or immigrants (I might have encountered one once; I helped a non-English speaker find a Spanish/English dictionary). I imagine it's a little different now, even in my neck of the woods. But I bet teenagers are still a PITA.

[iris lilies]

Nice to hear from you teen hating people.

My library, and every library I know, is set up to serve teenagers, to encourage them to come into the library, to participate in programs and services by library staff who recognize them and welcome them. Especially in our St.Louis rougher neighborhoods we want the library to be a haven for teens after school.

[littlebittybobby]

Nice to hear from you teen hating people.

My library, and every library I know, is set up to serve teenagers, to encourage them to come into the library, to participate in programs and services by library staff who recognize them and welcome them. Especially in our St.Louis rougher neighborhoods we want the library to be a haven for teens after school. Sorry, but I don't want MY lirrrary turned into a teen hangout, where they talk and have sex and just generally disrupt the atmosphere of the place. Having an anything-goes policy is NOT the way to gain patrons of a lirarary. Nope. Hope thatt helpps you some. Thank mee.

[nswef]

My librarian was just telling me about her group of teens. She's trying to get a grant to provide snacks for them in the "quiet room". They were hanging out in the bathroom and she told them they could chat in the "quiet room". I'm planning to see if I can donate money for the snacks. It's a small town and a wonderful library and librarian who is becoming burned out....

[jp1]

I wonder if there are programs and services that libraries could put together that would be considered useful for immigrants? If they are going to be hanging out there anyway it would be great if their time could be used productively on stuff like job and housing search assistance, ESL classes and resources, etc.

[pinkytoe]

I don't recall this in our previous city, but here they bring van loads of "mentally challenged" people to the library. They mostly just wander about or sit in chairs so I guess its about getting them out into the public. We also see large groups of the same brought to local thrift stores.

[iris lilies]

I wonder if there are programs and services that libraries could put together that would be considered useful for immigrants? If they are going to be hanging out there anyway it would be great if their time could be used productively on stuff like job and housing search assistance, ESL classes and resources, etc.

There is no point in duplicating services. In St.Louis the International Institute contracts with the federal government fir resettlement services of refugees.

[jp1]

There is no point in duplicating services. In St.Louis the International Institute contracts with the federal government fir resettlement services of refugees.

Perhaps they should have a space in the library then. Meet the people where they are would seem like a good plan if one is actually trying to help people. And ESL classes would still be a useful program that libraries might want to have available.

At the end of the day it all comes down to whether the library actually wants to provide useful services to all members of the community or not. On a recent survey that our county's library system did I suggested a tool lending library would be something that I would find to be of value. No, it's not a traditional library service, but I've read that some libraries across the country offer such a service and it seems like a really great way to help people avoid having to buy one off tools for a random project they may be doing.

[iris lilies]

Perhaps they should have a space in the library then. Meet the people where they are would seem like a good plan if one is actually trying to help people. And ESL classes would still be a useful program that libraries might want to have available.

At the end of the day it all comes down to whether the library actually wants to provide useful services to all members of the community or not. On a recent survey that our county's library system did I suggested a tool lending library would be something that I would find to be of value. No, it's not a traditional library service, but I've read that some libraries across the country offer such a service and it seems like a really great way to help people avoid having to buy one off tools for a random project they may be doing.


Help people do what would be my question. The public library is not all things to all people. Sure they could lend out tools. My local Hermann library rents out cake pans,telescopes, and computer hotspots among several of their non-book media.

My city library has media production systems that are astonishingly sophisticated, all to be used in a production space. Staff are stationed there to help people learn to use them.

There is no one size fits all for fringe services and each library has to have the space and the staff expertise to deal with things like power tools.

There’s no end to the list of ideas of what libraries “could “do. Identifying and carrying out the programs that will have the most impact for the best bang for the buck and remain consistent with their mission is the way to go. Personally, I don’t find feeding stations in the library consistent with the library‘s mission but opinions vary on that.

It is important for the library board and executive staff to draw lines around what a Library DOES do and do well, and hold off the laundry list of secondary and unrelated things everyone wants the library to do.

the number one thing everyone wants the library to do is to open a branch in their immediate neighborhood. Any new urban development or neighborhood planning phase includes a request for a new branch library.

[jp1]

Obviously libraries have limited budgets and space. But if they already have a group of patrons from the community coming there on a regular basis, like the above mentioned immigrants or teenagers, it seems logical to try and target that group with services that they would find useful. It's surely a lot easier to create a successful library program if the librarians target current patrons and their needs/wants rather than desired patrons who don't currently utilize the library for anything.

[iris lilies]

Obviously libraries have limited budgets and space. But if they already have a group of patrons from the community coming there on a regular basis, like the above mentioned immigrants or teenagers, it seems logical to try and target that group with services that they would find useful. It's surely a lot easier to create a successful library program if the librarians target current patrons and their needs/wants rather than desired patrons who don't currently utilize the library for anything.

sure, maybe it is a good place to use a meeting room for ESL services to come in and provide the instruction. I know nothing about the regularity of any of the migrants and refugees being dumped on the street needing a place to stay during the day. Regularity is key to setting up a learning program.

But JP you’re just spinning ideas about more programs and services that could be offered, That is easy to do..

[jp1]

But JP you’re just spinning ideas about more programs and services that could be offered, That is easy to do..

True. It's about as easy to come up with potential solutions as it is equating immigrants coming to libraries as being the same as homeless people.

Maybe I'm wrong in my belief that libraries strive to serve everyone in their communities? I'd always thought that was sort of their superpower and one of the big things that make them pretty awesome. But maybe my idealism is sadly misplaced?

[iris lilies]

True. It's about as easy to come up with potential solutions as it is equating immigrants coming to libraries as being the same as homeless people.

Maybe I'm wrong in my belief that libraries strive to serve everyone in their communities? I'd always thought that was sort of their superpower and one of the big things that make them pretty awesome. But maybe my idealism is sadly misplaced?
Oh please.

Public libraries offer programs and services to anyone in their community be they migrants, homeless, purple people eaters, mystery readers. Or etc.

A specific program for a target population is what you’re talking about, and that may or may not exist Depending on the library.. Takes money and other resources to make it happen.

[jp1]

What can I say. I live in the land of realized idealism. Because of prop 13 government funding here largely happens by voter initiatives. Last election we had to vote on whether to re-up funding for out library. The new ballot initiative increased funding by a modest amount and would result in the average property owner paying $30 more or some such amount in property tax. I doubt the majority of county residents actually use the library. (I don’t actually know anyone besides myself that does except a casual neighbor acquaintance who is an older lady living in social security. None of our friends do). Yet the measure passed resoundingly. If we lived in a shithole like the place I linked to in the lgbt thread I’d probably be less in favor of government budgeting by ballot initiative.

[JaneV2.0]

Nice to hear from you teen hating people.

My library, and every library I know, is set up to serve teenagers, to encourage them to come into the library, to participate in programs and services by library staff who recognize them and welcome them. Especially in our St.Louis rougher neighborhoods we want the library to be a haven for teens after school.

You were in management; you didn't have to clean up after the little blighters.