View Full Version : Alex Baldwin being charged
I just read that Alec Baldwin is being charged with involuntary manslaughter? I know nothing about guns, so you folks who do, does this seem fair or right to charge him?
ETA: sorry, I misspelled his name
catherine
1-19-23, 12:32pm
I thought that was all behind him. In fact, they are returning to production of Rust, with Halnyna Hutchins' husband as an executive producer.
I don't know how to define involuntary manslaughter legally, but maybe because he technically could have avoided the accident by not pointing the gun at her??
I've followed that case, because it was such a horrible, senseless tragedy, and also because I like Alec Baldwin's acting. And putting myself in his shoes, I don't know how I could ever get over something like that.
And is this a civil case, or a criminal one?
I just read that Alex Baldwin is being charged with involuntary manslaughter? I know nothing about guns, so you folks who do, does this seem fair or right to charge him?
Yes, it is fair. Basic gun safety requires everyone touching a weapon ensure its done safely, Alec Baldwin, and every other person handling that gun, violated that basic safety measure and a person was killed as a result. None of them intended to harm anyone, yet the result of their negligence took a life. There must be consequences.
catherine
1-19-23, 12:52pm
I did look it up, and it seems that he and the armorer are being charged with two counts. Punishment is not that severe, frankly. For instance, the AD took a plea deal and just served 6 months probation plus a fine. I think the charges are fair, given a completely innocent woman lost her life in a way that seems it should never have happened.
I think it's fair. He's still innocent until proven guilty and can afford expensive lawyers, so it should be a fair trial to say if he's innocent or not. I agree that it probably falls under some version of reckless endangerment or gross negligence, but that's a guess.
I think it's fair. He's still innocent until proven guilty and can afford expensive lawyers, so it should be a fair trial to say if he's innocent or not.
Maybe it's my Catholic guilt, but if I were involved, I'd beg for some type of punishment befitting the crime. I couldn't live with myself otherwise.
Without knowing the facts of the case, who can say if the charges are “fair” or “right”?
iris lilies
1-19-23, 1:24pm
Maybe it's my Catholic guilt, but if I were involved, I'd beg for some type of punishment befitting the crime. I couldn't live with myself otherwise.
I think the guy has plenty of internal strife to act as punishment.
That said, a charge of manslaughter isn’t all that serious in consequence, necessarily. Depends on many factors. And Catherine, all this does is cause the Baldwin assets to be depleted on high priced attorneys. The Spanish princess and her brood will have to give up a vacation in Majorca. Or perhaps they will have to forgo paying another surrogate to produce child #8 or whatever is the current number.
I think the guy has plenty of internal strife to act as punishment.
That said, a charge of manslaughter isn’t all that serious in consequence, necessarily. Depends on many factors. And Catherine, all this does is cause the Baldwin assets to be depleted on high priced attorneys. The Spanish princess and her brood will have to give up a vacation in Majorca. Or perhaps they will have to forgo paying another surrogate to produce child #8 or whatever is the current number.
Yeah, well, if I went to confession, I'd probably get quite a few Our Fathers and Hail Mary's to keep me busy in repentance for a while. But if you don't have that, how do you assuage your internal strife?
I agree that the punishment will be minimal enough to be symbolic for Alec Baldwin and it might hold up production for a while. That will be it. Except for the social media jury... that will be never-ending.
If I remember correctly, other people had refused to work on the set due to the lack of firearms safety rules. If that I’d true, then there was a track record of negligence with the firearms handling. When I do dry fire (aka no rounds in my pistol, fully unloaded) practice at home, I’m checking 4-5 times to make sure the chamber is empty before I touch the trigger.
If I remember correctly, other people had refused to work on the set due to the lack of firearms safety rules. If that I’d true, then there was a track record of negligence with the firearms handling. When I do dry fire (aka no rounds in my pistol, fully unloaded) practice at home, I’m checking 4-5 times to make sure the chamber is empty before I touch the trigger.
I dry fire at home "a lot". I verify multiple times that the firearm is empty, then I discharge the weapon into a safe trap, then proceed to do my drills. And even then, I make sure the firearm is always pointed in a safe direction with a good backstop before proceeding.
https://i.imgur.com/N9G2XIN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fNI3mhq.jpg
If I remember correctly, other people had refused to work on the set due to the lack of firearms safety rules. If that I’d true, then there was a track record of negligence with the firearms handling. When I do dry fire (aka no rounds in my pistol, fully unloaded) practice at home, I’m checking 4-5 times to make sure the chamber is empty before I touch the trigger.
I do think Alec Baldwin was negligent for that reason. I remember telling my kids to never point their toy guns at people! (That made for some really unexciting playtimes for them). I am not a gun owner, but if I were, I'm sure I'd exercise basic caution, like checking for myself to make sure the gun was "cold"
iris lilies
1-19-23, 2:28pm
Yes, the firearm safety on set seemed to be taking shortcuts. I would think that production company is going to be taken to task as well as Alex individually.
Since he is part of the production team, he might get double whammy charged.
manslaughter is a criminal offense.
littlebittybobby
1-19-23, 2:38pm
Okay---LHO used to practice with his newly-acquired war-suplus Italian Carcano, by dry-firing it. That save him on expending ammunition and making noise near the city. But yeah--he gained "muscle memory" in chambering, aiming, firing, and ejecting shells. Basic Marine Corps training drills. But yeah--whoever handed Baldwin a functional weapon with live ammo is every bit as culpable. That said, I smell an overzealous prosecution. There doesn't appear to be any malice on the part of Baldwin. It is a tragedy, just like a car wreck or whatever. Too bad Hollyweird can't make moooveees without guns and violence and car wrecks. Well, they can, but some moviegoers are attracted to it, I guess. Anyway--if Callyfornya wants to enact some more public policy, why not a ban on functional weapons on set? Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
why not a ban on functional weapons on set?
That seems like such an obvious answer that it's mind boggling it's not common practice. If they can make a fake shark swallow Robert Shaw whole and moviegoers believe it--hook, line and sinker (excuse the pun)--then why, why do they need to have real firearms on any movie set?
iris lilies
1-19-23, 3:21pm
That seems like such an obvious answer that it's mind boggling it's not common practice. If they can make a fake shark swallow Robert Shaw whole and moviegoers believe it--hook, line and sinker (excuse the pun)--then why, why do they need to have real firearms on any movie set?
When this incident happened in New Mexico I hung out on the Reddit sub forums for a bit and people who claimed to be somewhat knowledgeable about props in Old Western movies said they can’t really simulate the actions of old guns. Others, probably tech bros, said of course they can CGI simulate gunfire from old guns.
I came away from that discussion with the idea that there is divided opinion.
You know how extremely anal some of those set designers are and about also the accompanying props. For instance, I think about all of the set designs and authentic fabrics they use in costumes for period pieces.
I was surprised that they brought criminal charges after all this time, but I guess that means there was an in-depth investigation.
ToomuchStuff
1-20-23, 3:40am
I thought that was all behind him. In fact, they are returning to production of Rust, with Halnyna Hutchins' husband as an executive producer.
I don't know how to define involuntary manslaughter legally, but maybe because he technically could have avoided the accident by not pointing the gun at her??
I've followed that case, because it was such a horrible, senseless tragedy, and also because I like Alec Baldwin's acting. And putting myself in his shoes, I don't know how I could ever get over something like that.
And is this a civil case, or a criminal one?
This is a criminal case on both of them. My understanding is one of the civil cases was settled, but I don't know about the other. I expect the producer credit is in part hoping for profit from the movie to increase the payout, but that is just a guess. An interview I saw him give, did not do himself any favors civilly. Not sure it can be used criminally, or not, but it is a possibility. (trying to pass responsibility on to someone else, when legally as the head producer, he was fully in charge)
You would have to look up both state and federal statutes for what they were charged with, and I expect that is what was done in part during the investigation, to make sure they stick verse possible plea deal or stronger charges.
A third person, the assistant director David Halls took a plea deal, "Halls agreed to plead guilty to one charge of negligent use of a deadly weapon, and will receive just six months probation. " Do you think they are trying to get him to agree to a plea deal?
iris lilies
1-21-23, 10:33am
A third person, the assistant director David Halls took a plea deal, "Halls agreed to plead guilty to one charge of negligent use of a deadly weapon, and will receive just six months probation. " Do you think they are trying to get him to agree to a plea deal?
I doubt anyone expects Alec Baldwin to go to jail over this. But lawyers’ pockets will be lined.
gimmethesimplelife
1-21-23, 6:41pm
I myself brought this topic up on my FB page and boy did it become a hornet's nest (or maybe it's more like I became a pinata again). First off, I don't know much about guns - I am very anti gun as I explained some time ago when my Father was drunk years ago he stuck a gun up to my Mom's head and luckily did not shoot. Since then I am all about guns not getting into the wrong hands and never learned anything about guns as I fear them.
From some of my straight male friends from high school, who I still meet up with on occasion - apparently it IS the duty of everyone touching the gun to ensure it's safety and the gun should have been checked to make sure it was empty. Now this comes from more than one of these guys and they do know something about guns as some of them are hunters. I will respect what they have to say as I seriously am out of my element on this one. The consensus of these guys is that Baldwin was extremely negligent. Do you'all agree? For once I will defer to the opinions of others as I really know nothing about guns other than in the wrong hands they can be lethal. Rob
I don't think you need to know anything about guns to see that there was a whole lot of negligence occurring on that set. And you never point a gun at anyone unless you're prepared to use it.
The simple fact that *someone* allowed the guns to be taken off-set and shot off into the desert for fun after-hours is mind-blowing, to say the least. This happened at the movie ranch about 13 miles from my house. More than a few people on that production were completely negligent.
ToomuchStuff
1-22-23, 3:42am
The consensus of these guys is that Baldwin was extremely negligent. Do you'all agree? For once I will defer to the opinions of others as I really know nothing about guns other than in the wrong hands they can be lethal. Rob
First rule of gun handling:
Treat All firearms like they are loaded.
Second rule
Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
Third rule,
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned with your target and you have made the decision to fire.
Fourth rule,
Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
I have been at gun point five times in my life and once at knifepoint to the throat. Don't take these lightly.
And for the best video I have seen on the subject, by a lawyer who read the statutes:
https://youtu.be/nCjJR-Yk074
I have taught thousands of people how to shoot over the past decades. I have been an expert witness in court on firearms use. I have done research at the Army's Wound Ballistics Lab at the Presidio. I've been an plaintiff for gun rights cases. I've carried a firearm nearly every day for 30+ years. I am a certified armorer for several major lines of firearms. I;ve competed in the National Matches. I've had an FFL, and engaged in buying/trading firearms. I've used a firearm to defend my life, and the lives of others.
And, I would not have pointed a firearm at someone else on a film set and pulled the trigger, unless I was morally certain it was not able to go BANG.
I have used firearms as props in self-defense classes. They've all been "red guns", that is, made of red rubber and clearly not a real firearm. Or, if they were real firearms, there were layers of protocols making sure firearms and real ammo were never in the same room together.
I'm not sure how they do things in Hollywood though. But, shame on them.
The simple fact that *someone* allowed the guns to be taken off-set and shot off into the desert for fun after-hours is mind-blowing, to say the least. This happened at the movie ranch about 13 miles from my house. More than a few people on that production were completely negligent.
That I did not know.
Yes, everyone handling the guns was extremely negligent. Baldwin should have checked himself the gun was unloaded as soon as he had it in hand.
Rob, do you realize that straight white men aren’t the only ones who are into firearms? There are a number of gay men on my big gun forum. They lean right or libertarian. The Pink Pistols is a large gay firearms group.
gimmethesimplelife
1-22-23, 8:01pm
First rule of gun handling:
Treat All firearms like they are loaded.
Second rule
Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
Third rule,
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned with your target and you have made the decision to fire.
Fourth rule,
Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
I have been at gun point five times in my life and once at knifepoint to the throat. Don't take these lightly.
And for the best video I have seen on the subject, by a lawyer who read the statutes:
https://youtu.be/nCjJR-Yk074I know that we have not always seen eye to eye and there has been bickering between us from time to time. So I really want to Thank You for posting this as it really helped me to understand the issues and legalities going on here. As I stated, I really don't know anything about guns - this is due to the incident between my folks years ago and my reaction to it. At any rate, this video helped me grasp what is going on here, so once again, Thank You. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
1-22-23, 8:07pm
Rob, do you realize that straight white men aren’t the only ones who are into firearms? There are a number of gay men on my big gun forum. They lean right or libertarian. The Pink Pistols is a large gay firearms group.Yes, I knew this, Tradd. There are all types and kinds of gay men just like there are all types and kinds of straight men. I've only known one gay man who was really into guns and he was a piece of work, putting it kindly. I'll put it this way - I am somewhere in the middle between very masculine and very feminine - dead set in the middle. There are things I don't understand that feminine gay men tend to be into, just as I don't know much about guns. i will say it's interesting getting educated here regarding gun safety and protocol. I doubt I'll ever be a gun fan - too much trauma surrounding the concept of guns for me - but I do appreciate knowing why Alec Baldwin was charged in the first place. Rob
littlebittybobby
1-23-23, 12:36pm
Okay----Time to get back on track, here. So yeah---I just remembered the incident where out in some podunk in the hills, a deputy or town marshall who also was the de facto ACO(heartless dog cathcher), went to a cemetery, to follow up on a stray dog report, out there. Well, the dogg wouldn't let the ACO catch him, so the deputty opened the trunk of his cruiser to fetch his problem-solver(shotgun), and the darn thing accidentally discharged, mortally wounding the deppputty. Yup. What a mess that musta been! I have no idea what became of the stray dogg. Prolly some other deppputty used it for target practice, when they arrived. Yup. But yeah--Hope that helps you some. Thannk mee. Just as if it were a car, always treat EVERY lethal weapon as though it were loaded. 51275128
iris lilies
2-9-23, 1:43am
I watched an Australian news show on this accident.
There was an old Hollywood Armorer who they talked to as an expert. He was hired, so he thought, to work on the film Rust. He said he was concerned they were asking him to do two jobs, prop master, and armorer. But he thought they had a deal. Later he heard, they hired someone cheaper, the young woman armorer.
He showed blanks side-by-side with real bullets. They look exactly the same. Baldwin would not have been checking to see that the chambers were empty. But I suppose he could’ve checked to see that every case in the gun rattled because that’s what blanks do, they rattle.
The old Hollywood armorer said that live rounds should never be brought on the set of a film, so that was another mistake.
He showed blanks side-by-side with real bullets. They look exactly the same.
Here is a .45 Long Colt blank, and a .45 Long Colt with a real bullet. They do not look the same.
https://detroitammoco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/13891-DEFAULT-l.jpg
https://d3gxe0jmvtuxbc.cloudfront.net/images/Product/large/2458.jpg
iris lilies
2-9-23, 3:07am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=odclVcX-FFc
Go to 12:27 where you will see what the armorer expert shows as blanks and live ammunition that look alike.
Why does he say what he says then? Are you saying that all blanks have that pinched in top? because the ones he shows do not.
these are a mix of blanks and live.
5182
Are you saying that all blanks have that pinched in top? because the ones he shows do not.
I am not saying that all blanks are crimped like. There are 3-4 common styles of blanks - most of the others have a flush flat top across the end of the brass cartridge. All are visually different from live rounds.
At your ~12:27 mark though, he uses the word "dummy", not "blanks". And then what he displays are not "blanks" at all. That's an entirely different matter.
I don't know anything about blanks, so forgive a stupid question; does the crimped bullet (the blank) fire out of the gun, and can it do damage when shot at someone at close range? Because it looks like it is dangerous shot directly at some one at a close range as happened on the movie set.
Did he think there was a crimped blank in the gun?
ToomuchStuff
2-9-23, 10:50am
I don't know anything about blanks, so forgive a stupid question; does the crimped bullet (the blank) fire out of the gun, and can it do damage when shot at someone at close range? Because it looks like it is dangerous shot directly at some one at a close range as happened on the movie set.
Did he think there was a crimped blank in the gun?
A Blank is still dangerous. I was supposed to work the wedding rehearsal dinner of Brandon Lee the week he died. There was another actor who died by putting a gun with a blank to his head (pressure still killed him). Brandon's gun had a round stuck in the barrel and the pressure pushed it out of the gun. Still see his fiances parents.
A Dummy round should not have a primer or powder. One thing they are used for in some instances is dud training (mix in with live ammo to teach someone how to clear a failure to fire).
iris lilies
2-9-23, 11:35am
I am not saying that all blanks are crimped like. There are 3-4 common styles of blanks - most of the others have a flush flat top across the end of the brass cartridge. All are visually different from live rounds.
At your ~12:27 mark though, he uses the word "dummy", not "blanks". And then what he displays are not "blanks" at all. That's an entirely different matter.
What do you suppose he means by using the word “dummy?”
A Blank is still dangerous. I was supposed to work the wedding rehearsal dinner of Brandon Lee the week he died. There was another actor who died by putting a gun with a blank to his head (pressure still killed him). Brandon's gun had a round stuck in the barrel and the pressure pushed it out of the gun. Still see his fiances parents.
A Dummy round should not have a primer or powder. One thing they are used for in some instances is dud training (mix in with live ammo to teach someone how to clear a failure to fire).
Does the blank round have primer or powder? Sorry, these are dumb questions, but I'm trying to understand the words being used.
What do you suppose he means by using the word “dummy?”
You said "blank". He said "dummy". He probably meant "dummy", as he was showing "dummy" rounds.
They are two very different things.
Blanks make nose/smoke when you fire them. (And can be dangerous, the hot gases and the wadding used to retain the powder in the cartridge casing can cause injury near the muzzle as they exit the barrel, there have been filming injuries from this...)
Dummies are inert, do not go bang, and do not cause any material to be ejected from the muzzle.
iris lilies
2-9-23, 2:29pm
Ah! Dummy and blanks…two different things.
What do they use dummy bullets for then, I wonder. Hmm, just musing here.
edited to add: the movie people use dummy bullets when the camera needs to focus on actual bullets.
yet in this vase, it seems the gun was supposed to be loaded with dummys. In this scene as I understand it, why? Maybe camera is looking right into barrel? Who knows.
Ah! Dummy and blanks…two different things.
What do they use dummy bullets for then, I wonder. Hmm, just musing here.
edited to add: the movie people use dummy bullets when the camera needs to focus on actual bullets.
I have a wide selection of dummy rounds here (among other things, I am a gunsmith). The uses I have for them are:
- verifying proper mechanical fit/function of the firearm: chamber size, feed ramp angles, magazine lip/ramp shape, magazine spring function, etc.
- training: a dummy round mixed in with live rounds will see if a student has a flinch, and a dummy round is helpful for failure drills
I have blanks too, those are to make loud booming sounds.
All are visually distinguishable from live rounds upon inspection. Which seems a good idea. (The military's specs for live rounds require it for most ammunition, these days, presumably they had some unpleasant experiences).
In any event, none of these get pointed at people, because I dislike having to use my trauma kit.
- ver
Thank you, I am understanding better!
iris lilies
2-9-23, 5:45pm
So, it is a valid Hollywood rule that live bullets should never be on the set?
So, it is a valid Hollywood rule that live bullets should never be on the set?
Well, it's often a mistake to make black/white rules.
For instance, I could imagine you might want to film a scene in which a gun is fired at an object, and the object is struck by the bullets. It might be simplest to use a real firearm and real bullets for that.
The main thing is - you have to have solid safety protocols in place to make sure real bullets are not fired at real people at any time.
They clearly messed that up.
ToomuchStuff
2-10-23, 3:42am
Does the blank round have primer or powder? Sorry, these are dumb questions, but I'm trying to understand the words being used.
Yes.
Ever seen a military funeral? That is a prime example of blank use, they are not firing bullets above peoples heads, but blanks.
Of course, that makes total sense.
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