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I see that having solved the problems of organized crime and Chinese espionage, the FBI turned its attention to the threat presented by Catholics who like the Latin Mass. Apparently they relied on Salon posts and fund-raising brochures from the Southern Poverty Law Center for research.
Unfortunately, some Papist mole leaked the memo, and the FBI hierarchy withdrew its imprimatur. The Knights of Columbus will be free to go about their subversive activities with impunity.
Pax Vobiscum
That sounds like a good project for Jim Jordan to investigate once he's charged Hunter Biden, the FDA, and Fauci with their crimes.
Sounds like they self-policed before the first SWAT raid on the Little Sisters of the Poor.
Well, if they want to go after child sex rings….
littlebittybobby
2-10-23, 1:57pm
Okay---there is a congregation two miles from me that has a so-called "Latin Mass". It is a 1950's church building that has probably been used by various groups over the years. I wondered if they are officially affiliated with the So Mo Cape G Diocese, but havent found out. I don't believe so. I also wondered if the church caters to any particular ethnic group or whatever. That I don't know. But yeah---there are conspiracy buffs who claim to be SD Adventists who blame the Vatican for everything, even claim the Pope wants to rule the world as the "Antichrist". This seems kind of unlikely, to me, but I asked a buff what proof they had; show mee the empirical evidence. Their response was that it's ALL right there in the Bible! That's all the proof they need. But yeah---Anti-Catholicism has been around forever, just as has Antisemitism(jewish/muslim/etc.). At present, Catholics haven't gotten as aggressive as the other groups inb combatting it, or going so far as to even ca$h in on it. . . So anyway---at times they're being investigated, for one thing or another, , and it makes for juicy news stories. . Maybe it's political; more likely it's mass hysteria & paranoia.. Maybe there IS malfeasance, though, as there is in any human group.. Yup. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
iris lilies
2-10-23, 2:57pm
Bobby there was a pre-Vatican II Catholic Church congregation a couple blocks from our house in the city. They are renegades. Their priest, who lives next door to the church, walks around the neighborhood in his long cassock, adding local color to our already colorful neighborhood.
In May, they have some sort of celebration where they carry some sort of icon (Mother Mary? Baby Jesus?) through the streets of our neighborhood. More local color.
I attended a couple of services decades ago. They were especially proud they were not invited to participate in any festivities when the pope visited St. Louis.
What exactly is the point of doing mass in a language that the attendees don’t understand?
iris lilies
2-11-23, 9:00am
What exactly is the point of doing mass in a language that the attendees don’t understand?
YOU don’t understand it.
If you are raised in the church you will get to understand it.
What exactly is the point of doing mass in a language that the attendees don’t understand?
IL is right. You have to be part of it to understand it. If you are a regular attendee and come to learn the Liturgy in Latin, you understand it, just as if you move to France and come to understand French. It's beautiful, and has a music of its own.
And think about this--the reality is the Latin Mass is universal. I can go to a Latin Mass in Italy, Greece or Saudi Arabia and it will all be the same words in the same language. There are actually fewer language barriers with a Latin Mass.
The Chicago area has a number of Catholic parishes with Spanish and Polish Masses. There’s even a Vietnamese parish, I think. That’s what happened after Vatican II and no more Latin.
The Greek Orthodox still have services in Koine Greek. That’s the Greek the Bible was written in. So it was once the language of the people, but not really understood anymore. The Slavonic that Russian Orthodox services are in is a wholly liturgical language. It’s centuries old, as well. How well modern Russian speakers understand it is debated.
I’m in the Orthodox Church of America that got its independence from the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970. As a result, we’re the only Orthodox jurisdiction that doesn’t look to the old country for oversight. Our services are in English, except where there is a local need for Slavonic or Spanish.
I grew up Catholic immediately post Vatican II when the reforms were still being implemented. The music was dreadful. I still think the Catholics could have done a better job. There was no reason why Gregorian chant couldn’t be adapted to English text. The Mass translation was tweaked a lot in recent years.
The OCA priests who had musical ability took the Russian melodies and set the English text to them. In some cases, the arrangement is almost identical to Russian text. New melodies have been written that take the traditional music for inspiration. I say it’s worked much better than throwing your music totally in the trash and starting over.
iris lilies
2-11-23, 10:02am
IL is right. You have to be part of it to understand it. If you are a regular attendee and come to learn the Liturgy in Latin, you understand it, just as if you move to France and come to understand French. It's beautiful, and has a music of its own.
And think about this--the reality is the Latin Mass is universal. I can go to a Latin Mass in Italy, Greece or Saudi Arabia and it will all be the same words in the same language. There are actually fewer language barriers with a Latin Mass.
That is a good perspective, the Latin Mass is a worldwide unifier.
I am not wired to be a believer, but I can see the attraction of immersion into ye olde Catholic Church service even if my participation would be superficial.I am already an architecture nerd, so the 150 year old churches around my city neighborhood are a draw. Add in incense, the right music, and chanting in Latin…I could see it being a spiritual experience.
iris lilies
2-11-23, 10:04am
The Chicago area has a number of Catholic parishes with Spanish and Polish Masses. There’s even a Vietnamese parish, I think. That’s what happened after Vatican II and no more Latin.
The Greek Orthodox still have services in Koine Greek. That’s the Greek the Bible was written in. So it was once the language of the people, but not really understood anymore. The Slavonic that Russian Orthodox services are in is a wholly liturgical language. It’s centuries old, as well. How well modern Russian speakers understand it is debated.
I’m in the Orthodox Church of America that got its independence from the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970. As a result, we’re the only Orthodox jurisdiction that doesn’t look to the old country for oversight. Our services are in English, except where there is a local need for Slavonic or Spanish.
I grew up Catholic immediately post Vatican II when the reforms were still being implemented. The music was dreadful. I still think the Catholics could have done a better job. There was no reason why Gregorian chant couldn’t be adapted to English text. The Mass translation was tweaked a lot in recent years.
The OCA priests who had musical ability took the Russian melodies and set the English text to them. In some cases, the arrangement is almost identical to Russian text. New melodies have been written that take the traditional music for inspiration. I say it’s worked much better than throwing your music totally in the trash and starting over.
interesting summary Tradd. Thanks!
one of my favorite things about Romania was the preponderance of Orthodox Church architecture. I have no idea what flavor of Orthodox it was that built them nor do I know what type of Orthodox Church operates now there, but man, lots of churches with domes.
You could probably give me the Cliff Notes version of why domes are the main church topper, not steeples.
interesting summary Tradd. Thanks!
one of my favorite things about Romania was the preponderance of Orthodox Church architecture. I have no idea what flavor of Orthodox it was that built them nor do I know what type of Orthodox Church operates now there, but man, lots of churches with domes.
You could probably give me the Cliff Notes version of why domes are the main church topper, not steeples.
Romanian Orthodox! The traditional way the Orthodox Church was organized was on the national level. That felt apart when people left the traditional Orthodox countries and came to the US, Western Europe, Australia. That’s why there are different jurisdictions - OCA, Antiochian (Arab), Greek, Russian, Serbian, Ukrainian, etc.
I’m not sure on the domes vs steeples myself!
That is a good perspective, the Latin Mass is a worldwide unifier.
I am not wired to be a believer, but I can see the attraction of immersion into ye olde Catholic Church service even if my participation would be superficial.I am already an architecture nerd, so the 150 year old churches around my city neighborhood are a draw. Add in incense, the right music, and chanting in Latin…I could see it being a spiritual experience.
Check out the Orthodox (make sure services are in English). You get incense and chanting and gorgeous icons in English!
iris lilies
2-11-23, 10:21am
Check out the Orthodox (make sure services are in English). You get incense and chanting and gorgeous icons in English!
This one is walking distance from my old house and is close to my condo:
https://orthodoxstl.com/
i’ve always wondered what they do in that church. My requirement for any church I walk into is that it must be OLD.
This one is walking distance from my old house and is close to my condo:
https://orthodoxstl.com/
i’ve always wondered what they do in that church. My requirement for any church I walk into is that it must be OLD.
It’s an OCA parish. Same as mine.
Look up Holy Trinity Orthodox Cathedral in Chicago built in 1903. Designed by Louis Sullivan and the only church he designed still functioning as a church. The icon screen was paid for with money from the Russian Imperial family. The priest at the time was Fr John Kochurov. He later went back to Russia and was the first priest the Bolsheviks killed during the Russian Revolution
IL is right. You have to be part of it to understand it. If you are a regular attendee and come to learn the Liturgy in Latin, you understand it, just as if you move to France and come to understand French. It's beautiful, and has a music of its own.
And think about this--the reality is the Latin Mass is universal. I can go to a Latin Mass in Italy, Greece or Saudi Arabia and it will all be the same words in the same language. There are actually fewer language barriers with a Latin Mass.
That's interesting. Do churches that still do Latin Mass teach parishioners Latin? Because without context how would one come to understand what the words mean?
That's interesting. Do churches that still do Latin Mass teach parishioners Latin? Because without context how would one come to understand what the words mean?
When I was a kid in the '60s in rural Ohio, Latin was taught/available at our church, as part of the Catechism/other instruction. My mother also taught Latin to students in the local secular school system. My high school in Colorado also provided 4 years of Latin instruction.
My child in the 2000s learned Latin in early middle school, her mother and I taught her, using the new Cambridge Latin program, which was a lot of fun.
My daughter, having just completed her Ph.D., is now a Fellow at Cambridge University in the UK, and teaches several different Latin classes, from beginning levels to very obscure topics (one of her specialities is insular Latin). She also teaches private students.
It's a pretty darned easy language to learn.
littlebittybobby
2-11-23, 3:50pm
Okay---I tell you what. Latin, according to littlebittymee, is not really so much a "dead language". as it really is what has evolved into Italian! Yup. Latin is just a literary and spoken form used until 50 years ago in Cath'lic liturgy. But yeah---just try reading any 500-year-old book written in English, and see if you can make sense of it! Ha. Shakespeare is mumbo-jumbo, to mee, anyway. Hope thatt helps you kids.
That's interesting. Do churches that still do Latin Mass teach parishioners Latin? Because without context how would one come to understand what the words mean?
No, the liturgy is the same. The words are the same. And, it helps that in many missals (prayer books) the Latin is on the left and the English is on the right. But it doesn't take long to just know that kyrie eleison means "Lord, have mercy" and dominus vobiscum means "the Lord be with you." etc.
The sermons and the announcements are in English/local language.
bae, I took three years of Latin in high school, and I wouldn't say it's easy, but it is a good language to learn, even now.
iris lilies
2-11-23, 4:01pm
I have often lamented the fact that here in flyover country, Latin was never offered in my K-12 curriculum.
I have often lamented the fact that here in flyover country, Latin was never offered in my K-12 curriculum.
We were in deepest darkest Ohio in the 60s, not sure that is flyover country anymore though.
But it doesn't take long to just know that kyrie eleison means "Lord, have mercy" and dominus vobiscum means "the Lord be with you." etc.
Half of that is Greek to me :-)
There are lots of very conservative Catholics in medical autonomy circles in my area, maybe because we are a heavily Catholic state, and some of them miss Latin.
Half of that is Greek to me :-)
Haha!! Good one! Trick question on my Latin test!
In the 1970’s, a Bachelor’s Degree at the University of Illinois required two years of a language. You could satisfy the requirement with four years of high school language. I took Latin from the same Benedictine nun for all four years. She spent a year on basic grammar and syntax and the rest building vocabulary and translating literature. You could do that because Latin had such a logical structure.
While the modern languages were inquiring about the next train to Düsseldorf, we were watching Aeneas deserting Dido and Caesar defeating Vercingetorix. .
iris lilies
2-11-23, 5:48pm
We were in deepest darkest Ohio in the 60s, not sure that is flyover country anymore though.
I think Latin was offered around my parts in the big city schools.
We were farmer/suburban kids. Apparently that was not considered important to offer.
I think Latin was offered around my parts in the big city schools.
We were farmer/suburban kids. Apparently that was not considered important to offer.
For reasons both practical and ideological, Classics are being eliminated or adulterated all over the country. I’m dreading the day some bright spark introduces “the 753 BC Project” or “Classx” to cleanse the discipline of its unwokefullness.
early morning
2-13-23, 11:08am
I think Latin was offered around my parts in the big city schools.
We were farmer/suburban kids. Apparently that was not considered important to offer.
Well, I was a county kid in fly-over country, and Latin was offered my Freshman year. But it's hard to justify the cost of a Latin teacher to a rural school board when there are only 3 kids enrolled in the class.
I could never see the point of Latin--you couldn't speak it with anyone, and any Romance language provided the same linguistic roots,
but I much preferred the Latin masses as they seemed a better fit for the gravitas of the traditional Catholic church.
Teacher Terry
2-13-23, 2:26pm
My friends that were raised Catholic said basically when mass was in Latin they had no clue what was going on. I was raised Lutheran and since they broke away from the Catholic Church much of the rote stuff both churches say the same. So even though I haven’t been to either in years if I go to a funeral or other service I know much of what to say.
I love the old Catholic Churches in Europe. They are so ornate and beautiful. I spent a week in Rome so went to many. In the Tuscany region of Italy we were driving around and happened upon a little church where the monks do a service with much chanting, etc. It’s actually famous and I read about it years ago and then stumbled upon it right before mass which we stayed for of course. There’s something very comforting about the rituals and services so I can see why people get hooked. I see it as hitting the easy button for life’s problems.
rosarugosa
2-14-23, 7:36am
I do appreciate the architecture of many churches and I love stained glass windows. I look forward to the day that all the beautiful churches become museums, and the not-so-beautiful churches get bulldozed or converted into something of actual use.
I look forward to the day that all the beautiful churches become museums, and the not-so-beautiful churches get bulldozed or converted into something of actual use.
Many have expressed that sentiment over the centuries. The Church has outlived them all, per gratiam dei.
Teacher Terry
2-14-23, 11:59am
Churches are big businesses and no way are they letting go of the power and money. I wouldn’t expect that to happen Rosa.
iris lilies
2-14-23, 12:21pm
Many churches do good in their communities. I know that’s not a popular sentiment, however.
littlebittybobby
2-14-23, 12:53pm
Okay---tellya what: the Cath'lick minority here has done a LOT of benevolent work, over the years. . Meanwhile, the Whoop-N-hollar bible thumper church people focus on Super Churches, the gory crucifiction of Jesus, Fund-raising, Helping Iz-Real, proselytizing in Affrica & Asia, and growing their congregations. Plus, propagating conspiracy theories. Much disdain is secretly directed at the cath'lics, for the usual reasons. I know at least two locals, born as cath'lics, that will not admit it, and go to whoop-n-hollar fundy churches, in order to fit in. But yeah--that is true, according to mee, and I have no dog in the fight. I'm not a church person. Hope that helps you some.
catherine
2-14-23, 12:59pm
There’s something very comforting about the rituals and services so I can see why people get hooked. I see it as hitting the easy button for life’s problems.
I think the people who are doing good in their communities (the minority IL and bobby are talking about) do not go to church to hit the easy button on their lives. They are living a faith that demands a lot of them. Bonhoeffer calls that "costly grace."
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