Being a drunk = disability

[Tradd]

A friend was venting to me last night. She works for government, in an area I wouldn’t consider particularly liberal/woke.

She is the lead in her area. She and other coworker sometimes have to go out and interact with public at meetings, drive govt car, etc., in addition to normal duties in office. Friend’s coworker is a drunk. Often comes to work drunk. So driving the govt issued vehicle and interacting with the public were a no-go. Was behind in many projects, unable to do normal duties, etc. Friend told her coworker that she had to stop coming to work under the influence. Friend said SHE was reprimanded for saying anything to drink coworker about her behavior and drinking. Friend had to go to sensitivity training and talk to a counselor. All this because being a drunk is a disability.

Thankfully the drunk coworker just quit.

Are you effing kidding me?

[early morning]

Wow. While I agree that alcoholism is a disease, coming to work drunk should be grounds for dismissal. Impaired people can be a danger to their selves and to others, and can play havoc with workers comp and insurance rates. I worked for a time in a county court system under a very liberal administration, and being drunk on the job got a few people fired that I was aware of, and possibly some that I was not, lol. LEGAL impairment- prescribed painkillers, OTC meds that impacted functioning and response times- would get you sent home for the day if anyone became aware. Was your friend reprimanded for what she said, or for going outside the chain of command to do so? Chain of command issues seem to be quite non-partisan.

[catherine]

OK, just to play Devil's Advocate, do you know exactly how your friend handled that conversation? Maybe your friend did not approach the conversation with professionalism. Maybe she just yelled at the coworker, "You're a F'n drunk!" Maybe there are workplace protocols that require your friend, unless she's in HR, to have informed someone else in the company who is trained to deal with it.

Obviously the drunk coworker should not be coming to work drunk, and being drunk at the workplace isn't like having to use a wheelchair. But I can understand that there are probably very strict protocols around exactly how you confront someone coming to work drunk, including documentation of specific instances and strict boundaries that would result in termination if not met. There might even be liability issues if your friend didn't handle the situation properly.

I'm not saying that describes your friend. I'm just trying to envision a situation where sensitivity training would be called for.

[Tradd]

Friend is quite diplomatic. She isn’t nearly as blunt as I am. She had a log of all the incidents. I don’t know about specific protocols regarding HR involvement or similar. She said she was reprimanded for simply bringing it up. Nothing was said about her stepping on toes for not following certain procedures.

[bae]

My mother, in ages past, was an OB nurse. She had extensive "discussions" with upper management about the incident where she threw a drunken doctor out of the delivery room mid-delivery. Lawyers and settlements were involved.

[Tradd]

My mother, in ages past, was an OB nurse. She had extensive "discussions" with upper management about the incident where she threw a drunken doctor out of the delivery room mid-delivery. Lawyers and settlements were involved.

Good for your mom!

[catherine]

Friend is quite diplomatic. She isn’t nearly as blunt as I am. She had a log of all the incidents. I don’t know about specific protocols regarding HR involvement or similar. She said she was reprimanded for simply bringing it up. Nothing was said about her stepping on toes for not following certain procedures.

Are you saying you probably would have been sent to a time-out office in addition to sensitivity training? ;)

So I guess cancel culture has been extended to calling out alcoholics. Interesting times.

[Teacher Terry]

Substance abuse is a disability because it impairs both brain and neurological functions. However, you can not qualify for disability because of it. In government your friend wasn’t the person’s supervisor so wasn’t following the chain of command. The agency probably was afraid of being sued by the worker with the disability.

Normally a supervisor would refer the employee to EAP for counseling and a referral for treatment in an effort to retain the employee which is a win for everyone. Your empathy is underwhelming. People may have issues with substances but calling them drunks is disgusting.

[bae]

People may have issues with substances but calling them drunks is disgusting.

Are we allowed to say things like "you appear to be drunk, Bob, so get the heck out of the fire truck, you aren't driving it tonight, you aren't responding to any calls, nada."?

[Teacher Terry]

Hey captain obvious of course it’s not smart to let someone drive any vehicle let alone a very large one drunk.

[bae]

Hey captain obvious of course it’s not smart to let someone drive any vehicle let alone a very large one drunk.

Not sure why you feel compelled to engage in a personal attack, but, cheers to you.

[Tradd]

Substance abuse is a disability because it impairs both brain and neurological functions. However, you can not qualify for disability because of it. In government your friend wasn’t the person’s supervisor so wasn’t following the chain of command. The agency probably was afraid of being sued by the worker with the disability.

Normally a supervisor would refer the employee to EAP for counseling and a referral for treatment in an effort to retain the employee which is a win for everyone. Your empathy is underwhelming. People may have issues with substances but calling them drunks is disgusting.

My friend was the department lead so she was the drunk’s supervisor.

I grew up with a drunk, so I’ll damned well call a drunk, a drunk. Or alkie.

I have absolutely NO sympathy for drunks or addicts of any sort. They don’t give a flying f*ck about how their addiction affects others. Too many drunks on the road. If they’re going to be in an accident, it’s best they take themselves out without hurting anyone else.

[ToomuchStuff]

Had similar conversation with retired LEO relative. Officer was on desk duty, due to drug use, and I believe the claim was exposed to it on the job. They said time for random drug test and he said, that is it, I am retired.
He went on to become an early medical marijuana grower for MO. and is now worth better then 10 million.

Somethings I just don't get.

[jp1]

SO works in HR for a large corporation so has had to deal with substance abuse issues any number of times. Based on his description of how to handle it the appropriate person in the chain of command (direct shift supervisor) says "you appear to be under the influence so I'm sending you home". (I've witnessed SO getting more than one of these calls from the supervisor at random hours of the evening/early morning asking how to handle it) After that the process involves offering time off for treatment options, etc. If the person shows for work again incapacitated it becomes a second offense, etc. Depending on the severity of the situation they get let go after two or three violations of "you need to be sober at work". SO, even though he's management, has a good relationship with the various unions at his hotels so they generally don't fight him when someone gets fired for this because they know that he's done his best to help the person get treatment and that that has failed.

[bae]

I have absolutely NO sympathy for drunks or addicts of any sort. They don’t give a flying f*ck about how their addiction affects others. Too many drunks on the road. If they’re going to be in an accident, it’s best they take themselves out without hurting anyone else.

The bulk of the auto accidents I have responded to over the past 10 years have involved at least one drunk driver. It's bad enough having to cut them out of the vehicle and get them onto the chopper, if it's not too late, but sometimes they take other people with them.

And, when we work a crash scene, we set up traffic control - blocked lanes, flaggers, all that good stuff. When I've been on traffic control duty, it is amazing how many of the people you are stopping to wait.....are drunk themselves.

Maddening.

[iris lilies]

Calling someone “a drunk” in social discourse is different from using that exact term in a professional capacity, especially when employment law is operating.

Being drunk or under the influence of anything while at work is an impaired employee who needs to go home. i’m so glad I never had to deal with that in the years I was a manager. I did have instances of people falling asleep at work. Those were never fun to deal with, the chronic sleepers.

[Tradd]

Calling someone “a drunk” in social discourse is different from using that exact term in a professional capacity, especially when employment law is operating.

Being drunk or under the influence of anything while at work is an impaired employee who needs to go home. i’m so glad I never had to deal with that in the years I was a manager. I did have instances of people falling asleep at work. Those were never fun to deal with, the chronic sleepers.

Iris, remember the woman who was always sleeping on the job years ago at a previous job of mine?

[iris lilies]

Iris, remember the woman who was always sleeping on the job years ago at a previous job of mine?
I think so, vaguely.

[Simplemind]

This came up far too often for us in the PD. It was all about plugging any hole that might bleed money. As soon as one of the guys got into any kind of jam, impared or perhaps even not, substance abuse was brought up and they were in treatment so fast it made your head spin. Good on them for getting help, good on the City for getting them help. Rug up, sweep, sweep................

[iris lilies]

Friend is quite diplomatic. She isn’t nearly as blunt as I am. She had a log of all the incidents. I don’t know about specific protocols regarding HR involvement or similar. She said she was reprimanded for simply bringing it up. Nothing was said about her stepping on toes for not following certain procedures.

In the overview, and assuming the person with an alcohol problem had a treatment program on file with HR ( a big assumption, I know!) umm, yeah, the supervisor of this alcoholic employee pretty much has to bend over to get fkd. She may not address the “medical” side of things, just the performance side. But the fking only lasts until the requisite number of “chances” as defined in the treatment program has been exhausted.

In these situations one can only hope the employee is a serious drunk who is unable to get straight, and does not prolong the agony of his employment.

Some of these situations can go on for years.

[Teacher Terry]

One certainly doesn’t hope that the employee has a serious problem that doesn’t get fixed. Ugh! I had a supervisor when I worked for the state that had a serious problem with alcohol and with her career at stake she got help and stayed sober. She was able to finish her career and retire. I hate when people drive drunk for obvious reasons and they shouldn’t ever drive when drinking.

But addiction is a serious disorder and while some can overcome easily others lose their lives to it. Some of the dismissive judgmental comments are sickening. I am done with this conversation and everyone can carry on feeling superior.

[catherine]

But addiction is a serious disorder and while some can overcome easily others lose their lives to it. Some of the dismissive judgmental comments are sickening. I am done with this conversation and everyone can carry on feeling superior.

Yes, there is a human being behind every face, drunk or sober. It is a horrible disease, and you are right that no one can tell what will be a turning point for an addicted person, or if they will ever have that turning point. A call that turning point "a touch of grace" because you never know when it will touch you.

Thanks for your compassion, Terry.

[Teacher Terry]

Catherine they are finding a genetic link with alcoholism and hopefully in the future they can test people before they ever start to drink and if they carry the gene they can decide to never start. There’s a reason it tends to run in families. Then people will recognize that it’s a disease like other diseases.

[iris lilies]

Compassion for the person, sure.
But understand that work must be performed. Deadlines met. Work products completed.

The worst kind of FMLA leave for managers is the intermittent kind where from day to day one never knows if employees will show up, and if they do, for how long. Management’s hands are tied for requiring attendance.

That’s why I prefer to get the medical condition out of the way of productivity as soon as possible.

It is realistic, and adults understand, that we can hold two thoughts in our head at the same time which are:
1)it is unfortunate that the employee has health problems
2) it is too bad that the employee’s performance impacts heavily on his work environment.

[JaneV2.0]

Catherine they are finding a genetic link with alcoholism and hopefully in the future they can test people before they ever start to drink and if they carry the gene they can decide to never start. There’s a reason it tends to run in families. Then people will recognize that it’s a disease like other diseases.

A lot of people know perfectly well that substance abuse runs in their family, but choose to ignore that painful fact. But then, some doomed people with Huntington's disease choose to reproduce, also. People confound me.

[Yppej]

My job site had a longtime addict. Went to rehab for alcoholism with boss #1. Came back and was obviously not cured and had many attendance issues under boss #2. Went out on disability again, this time for addiction to painkillers and was collecting from the insurer, only we found out while he was supposedly too disabled to work for us he was working for another company, so we finally were able to fire him.

Now he is suing us for firing him saying we discriminated against him on the basis of his disability.

[catherine]

My job site had a longtime addict. Went to rehab for alcoholism with boss #1. Came back and was obviously not cured and had many attendance issues under boss #2. Went out on disability again, this time for addiction to painkillers and was collecting from the insurer, only we found out while he was supposedly too disabled to work for us he was working for another company, so we finally were able to fire him.

Now he is suing us for firing him saying we discriminated against him on the basis of his disability.

While I think you could say that there is a "disability" element to alcoholism, based on the physical and psychologic snare of addiction, no business, organization, family, or social circle does the addict a favor by excusing inexcusable behavior with a disability label. That's crazy. Alcoholism is not a free pass for ignoring rules and boundaries at home, in the workplace, or in society.

[iris lilies]

While I think you could say that there is a "disability" element to alcoholism, based on the physical and psychologic snare of addiction, no business, organization, family, or social circle does the addict a favor by excusing inexcusable behavior with a disability label. That's crazy. Alcoholism is not a free pass for ignoring rules and boundaries at home, in the workplace, or in society.

The “ disability” label for those with the active disease of alcoholism is codified in many laws, regulations, etc. in these United States. Whether crazy or not, that ship has sailed.

One interesting legal challenge is this: if the alcoholic has gone through rehabilitation, and is sober for X amount of years, does he still have a disability? I believe that is an argument my state has made, that in this case, there is no disability.

[San Onofre Guy]

I have dealt with such issues and given reasonable suspicion one can take an employee to a for cause sobriety test. The employee can admit to being unwell and leave the workplace due to illness, but seldom do they think that quickly. The correct way to handle the situation is with reasonable objective observations while treating the situation as an illness.

[iris lilies]

We heard from our* attorney yesterday. His research shows “Missouri law does not recognize recovering alcoholics or drug addicts as mentally or physically handicapped” for purposes of applying a statute about housing and family members.

He will be arguing our case to the city’s Planning and Zoning commission on Monday. We want them to disallow the house up the street slated to house 10 unrelated men. 2 are counselors and 8 are men with alcohol problems who have been clean for more than a year.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

*several neighbors on my block went together to hire him.