View Full Version : Wuhan Lab Leak
I read this morning that the Department of Energy has joined the FBI in saying the most likely source of the Covid virus was sloppy Chinese virologists. My first thought was to wonder what interest the DoE has in public health issues. My second was to wonder why so many people expended so much energy trying to suppress the lab leak theory in the first place.
It seems like a non-issue, because they admitted that both theories--the lab theory as well as the animal-to-human theory--have low confidence levels
My news source says that the Dept. of Energy has changed their assessment that Covid originated from an unknown source to now a lab leak, but with low confidence of being correct. Their explanation was that the Chinese were not cooperating with information inquiries, so they couldn't say with certainty. Whether our people were suppressing the lab leak theory is up for debate but one I would not agree with. It's possible that past errors have been made and further inquires have provided more information. There still doesn't seem like there is any general agreement from the various government health and science agencies ion a source, but after seeing the DOE head, Rick Perry on Dancing with the Stars I'm Skeptical of their conclusions. There are probably still fringe people who say the release was intentional and I'm sure the anti Fauci conservative movement with take this for much more than it is, as is evident here.
What ever the source, it's safe to say that China in not our friend.
iris lilies
2-27-23, 3:30pm
Hunh, a disease that takes out (mostly) old people who do not contribute to the Great Society.
Gosh who would benefit from THAT?
I could speculate that nothing has really changed other than our politics. And I doubt China has benefited from this economically. With low confidence.
I think what has changed is that you no longer see social media platforms scrubbing posts because the lab leak theory violated some prevailing orthodoxy about which ideas were acceptable.
My news gave a supposed real reason why the opinion was changed from we don't know, to lab leak with low confidence. And also why the DoE was qualified to make the statement. It's out there for inquiring minds.
My conspiracy theory is that the public opinion being manipulated to think of China as the bad guy or a worse guy in the event they supply suicide drones to Russia and we need to imposed sanctions that will affect our economy. The same reason why their supposed surveillance balloons have been drifting over the US for years and we're just now finding them? I'll bet they could make suicide drones for pretty cheap.
iris lilies
2-27-23, 5:57pm
I could speculate that nothing has really changed other than our politics. And I doubt China has benefited from this economically. With low confidence.
There is short term and long term gain. But I have little confidence it was deliberate but I have a very high level of confidence that they will never reveal what they know.
but today we just got news from China from my nephew. He’s been there several years and he just got engaged to his Chinese girlfriend. They’re still having lockdowns that change on the regular.
Hunh, a disease that takes out (mostly) old people who do not contribute to the Great Society.
Gosh who would benefit from THAT?
One could posit that the virus escaped before scientists were through manipulating its "gain of function." Or not. I really don't have an opinion.
Hunh, a disease that takes out (mostly) old people who do not contribute to the Great Society.
Gosh who would benefit from THAT?
Well played.
Hunh, a disease that takes out (mostly) old people who do not contribute to the Great Society.
Gosh who would benefit from THAT?
Doesn't seem like smart business to kill off 7 million of your potential customers.
There is short term and long term gain.
In the long term, those older people will have died anyway. Then there will be new old people to get rid of.
ApatheticNoMore
2-27-23, 9:43pm
The problem is long covid has now disabled a boatload of people of working age (some of whom can't work, many of whom can no longer work the hours or jobs they did - estimates 2-4 million in the u.s. can't work due to long covid). So if that was the plan, it was an extremely dumb plan that backfired spectacularly. Does China have working people to spare? The U.S. rather clearly doesn't or not as many as that anyway.
I don't believe it was planned though. But a lab leak due to carelessness, sure that is quite possible. Of course regardless of that anti-China agendas are also entirely possible and may be pushing stuff into the news now as that hypothesis is really very old news. Not good.
When the topic of big bad China comes up, I always wonder what amazon would do without their vendors and products. Or most any of our businesses with Chinese made goods.
iris lilies
2-28-23, 11:31pm
I think what has changed is that you no longer see social media platforms scrubbing posts because the lab leak theory violated some prevailing orthodoxy about which ideas were acceptable.
I don’t know WHY it wasn’t reasonable to think it could’ve escaped from that lab. No evidence for it, sure. Never will be any “evidence.” It was argued pretty strongly against on this board as well.
John Stewart’s bit remains the best commentary on this phenomenon of Wuhan’s lab leak not allowed to be discussed. i’m sure everyone’s heard it by now but it’s at 3.00 if you haven’t. And in the past 48 hours John Stewart has been commenting on Dept of Energy
News release and the untold crap he got for his position. I thought he was mostly kidding when he was on Colbert a year ago to joke about Wuhan lab leak, but apparently not.
once again, we have to let the comedians say the stuff that needs to be said.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_lr1WpAw7qw
https://news.yahoo.com/dare-jon-stewart-reflects-lab-202138738.html
Some interesting observations:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/opinion/lab-leak-energy-department-covid.html
ApatheticNoMore
3-1-23, 2:24am
The thing about discussions of the lab leak in the height of the pandemic is they were actually irrelevant. You don't deal with a crisis by arguing about the origins if they aren't going to provide any useful information about dealing with it. And in fact it was used as deflection from the fact the pandemic response was total chaos. It was like children arguing over who hit who first. It doesn't even matter, you just need to break up the fight. Long after the fact when you aren't in a crisis yea maybe. And we are at a more manageable phase. However I'm still suspicious of why this topic is being brought up again right now by the powers that be, since it's a very old topic. Are they after China or what? War with China after war with Russia, um can things get any worse? (if that's what they want, I don't really know)
I never get this "not supposed to be discussed" business, because whenever I hear people claiming that I'm like what are you talking about? It was discussed all over the place. I followed Zeynep Tufekci at the Atlantic now the NYT during the pandemic and she was always arguing it was possible etc.. Others had different opinions. But maybe this was discussed more on social media and substacks? I don't know I followed twitter where almost all of the covid discussion under Trump was actually happening as the official information was so bad. I also follow the ocassional podcast, substacks, blogs (archaic but there are a few), and of course news articles. So everything that someone claims is not supposed to be discussed I always find is something being discussed all over the place. I don't even consume right wing media really or anything particularly conspiratorial. I don't do Fox or right wing radio or Joe Rogan or Jimmy Dore or any of that.
iris lilies
3-1-23, 7:48am
Some interesting observations:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/opinion/lab-leak-energy-department-covid.html
I can’t read it because I don’t have a subscription. Why don’t you tell us why we’ve been talking about it all wrong.
iris lilies
3-1-23, 7:57am
The thing about discussions of the lab leak in the height of the pandemic is they were actually irrelevant. You don't deal with a crisis by arguing about the origins if they aren't going to provide any useful information about dealing with it. And in fact it was used as deflection from the fact the pandemic response was total chaos. It was like children arguing over who hit who first. It doesn't even matter, you just need to break up the fight. Long after the fact when you aren't in a crisis yea maybe. And we are at a more manageable phase. However I'm still suspicious of why this topic is being brought up again right now by the powers that be, since it's a very old topic. Are they after China or what? War with China after war with Russia, um can things get any worse? (if that's what they want, I don't really know)
I never get this "not supposed to be discussed" business, because whenever I hear people claiming that I'm like what are you talking about? It was discussed all over the place. I followed Zeynep Tufekci at the Atlantic now the NYT during the pandemic and she was always arguing it was possible etc.. Others had different opinions. But maybe this was discussed more on social media and substacks? I don't know I followed twitter where almost all of the covid discussion under Trump was actually happening as the official information was so bad. I also follow the ocassional podcast, substacks, blogs (archaic but there are a few), and of course news articles. So everything that someone claims is not supposed to be discussed I always find is something being discussed all over the place. I don't even consume right wing media really or anything particularly conspiratorial. I don't do Fox or right wing radio or Joe Rogan or Jimmy Dore or any of that.
One reason it is being brought up now is because the panic is over and Monday morning quarterbacking is taking place. Review of government action is what citizens may do. And you were wrong that it could be discussed everywhere because there was no “discussion “ in some social media sites. At times Covid posts that did not fit the prevailing narrative were deleted. Sometimes Anyone who brought up Wuhan Lab leak was shouted down as “racist,” a current method of closing discussion.
Why you say it doesn’t matter that we know the origin of this worldwide virus that killed millions of people and interrupted our society for a couple of years is beyond me. Now, I don’t think we’ll ever really get there because China, but if our government continues to probe and does identify some facts around the source of this virus, that’s only to the good. Transparency is good, especially in anything to do with this Covid caper.
I remember reading multiple times that the Wuhan lab had a spotty safety record. So I can totally accept that an accidental exposure happened. Of course, China would cover it up. There was a Chinese doctor at the very beginning of 2020, who brought up what he had seen in some patients on a chat with other doctors, and the Commies came down on him like a ton of bricks. He died of the plague.
My take from the good NYT article is that there has been no new information that would provide more evidence one way or the other. We may never know. What has changed is geopolitics and national politics. And that even if the confidence in a lab leak is low, there should be some new focus on global lab safety and precautions to reduce or eliminate the risk of a future event. There was more to the article, but that's my take..
Trump was such a prolific liar that I can picture a conspiracy theory backlash when he politicized it and immediately assigned it to a lab leak. Now that the big liar is out of office, there might be a more objective take.
iris lilies
3-1-23, 9:54am
My take from the good NYT article is that there has been no new information that would provide more evidence one way or the other. We may never know. What has changed is geopolitics and national politics. And that even if the confidence in a lab leak is low, there should be some new focus on global lab safety and precautions to reduce or eliminate the risk of a future event. There was more to the article, but that's my take..
Trump was such a prolific liar that I can picture a conspiracy theory backlash when he politicized it and immediately assigned it to a lab leak. Now that the big liar is out of office, there might be a more objective take.
I do not want to defend DJ Trump but as he presents as a not especially a deep thinker, and as his advisors would have informed him of the Wuhan Virus Lab, it is not a stretch to think he would assign Covid to a lab effort not as a conspiracy but as gut reaction.
When the big chocolate spill is in Hersey, Pennsylvania it is reasonable for the average citizen to immediately suspect Hersey Candy Co. just may have something to do with it.
When the big chocolate spill is in Hersey, Pennsylvania it is reasonable for the average citizen to immediately suspect Hersey Candy Co. just may have something to do with it.
So, you're thinking the disease laden Wuhan open market with zero safety controls is analogous to Hersey Candy?
I probably would not matter if DJ had a private phone call from Chi himself, his propensity for false conspiracy theory preceded Wuhan.
iris lilies
3-1-23, 11:00am
So, you're thinking the disease laden Wuhan open market with zero safety controls is analogous to Hersey Candy?
I probably would not matter if DJ had a private phone call from Chi himself, his propensity for false conspiracy theory preceded Wuhan.
No, I am guessing there are far more “open markets” in the giant continent of China than there are laboratories that are set up to produces novel coronaviruses. So, the odds favor the rare thing being generated from the rare thing.
That is my hypothesis. I do not know foe fact that animal markets > novel virus labs.
No, I am guessing there are far more “open markets” in the giant continent of China than there are laboratories that are set up to produces novel coronaviruses. So, the odds favor the rare thing being generated from the rare thing.
That is my hypothesis. I do not know foe fact that animal markets > novel virus labs.
I really don't have a strong opinion of the origin and have an open mind. Like the NYT articles says, we may never know but should pay better attention to lab safety. However, many or most of our human pathogens jumped from animal to human (zoonotic). It's general knowledge. And how many has a person heard that a human pathogen is a result of a lab error. The gut reaction of an informed person would temp the open market theory based on previous evidence.. That is what Fauci kept saying, even though I think he remained open minded, too.
The issue of who was or wasn’t funding gain of function research at the lab also seems murky to me.
In the sense that it has been used with Wuhan, is gain of function a euphemism for the development of a biological weapon? I assume bacteria and virus are commonly modified for constructive purposes, such as vaccines.
I can’t read it because I don’t have a subscription.
Often right-clicking and opening up in an incognito window in your browser will pull articles from behind various paywalls.
Why don’t you tell us why we’ve been talking about it all wrong.
Because:
- That was not my thesis.
- I was merely providing a link to what I thought was an interesting discussion of some of the issues. The headline of the article isn't nearly as interesting as the content.
- I will not engage your straw-man hoooey - if you wish to joust with yourself, have at it.
In the sense that it has been used with Wuhan, is gain of function a euphemism for the development of a biological weapon? I assume bacteria and virus are commonly modified for constructive purposes, such as vaccines.
I believe some news commentators like to breathlessly repeat the phrase, with a certain element of "nudge nudge, look, we all know the Evil Chinese are doing biological weapons research with Hunter Biden's laptop".
I believe some news commentators like to breathlessly repeat the phrase, with a certain element of "nudge nudge, look, we all know the Evil Chinese are doing biological weapons research with Hunter Biden's laptop".
Straw-man hooey?
ApatheticNoMore
3-1-23, 1:47pm
One reason it is being brought up now is because the panic is over and Monday morning quarterbacking is taking place. Review of government action is what citizens may do. And you were wrong that it could be discussed everywhere because there was no “discussion “ in some social media sites.
you mean Facebook I suspect, as there was plenty of discussion on twitter. Or do you mean Tik Tok? Um isn't that literally affiliated with the Chinese government? Chinese government site owned by Chinese government does not allow free discussion of all ideas having to do with Chinese government? Or some other social media site?
Why you say it doesn’t matter that we know the origin of this worldwide virus that killed millions of people and interrupted our society for a couple of years is beyond me.
because I'm not entirely convinced it gives us useful information on dealing with future pandemics. And I think that's the point? Or what is the point? Basically just because it came from a lab leak (and this assumes it is knowable. This assumes we find some kind of actual PROOF and as far as I know none exists) doesn't mean there aren't other potential sources of pandemics (like wet markets, like animal aviculture has to be a huge one I's assume) that could lead to pandemics in the future. So if the point is address threats that could lead to future pandemics (and I make no assumption about this being done well regardless) is it relevant?
Now, I don’t think we’ll ever really get there because China, but if our government continues to probe and does identify some facts around the source of this virus, that’s only to the good. Transparency is good, especially in anything to do with this Covid caper.
In theory yes, in reality all these people have their own motives as well. I don't even know how much of whatever the U.S. govt discovered would ever make it to the public.
iris lilies
3-1-23, 1:59pm
Often right-clicking and opening up in an incognito window in your browser will pull articles from behind various paywalls.
Because:
- That was not my thesis.
- I was merely providing a link to what I thought was an interesting discussion of some of the issues. The headline of the article isn't nearly as interesting as the content.
- I will not engage your straw-man hoooey - if you wish to joust with yourself, have at it.
sigh.
bae, the New York Times article you link that I am unable to read has this headline, the only thing I could read:
” We’ve Been Talking About the Lab Leak Hypothesis All Wrong.”
”
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