View Full Version : Maybe There Really Is Hope
Imagine in 2024 it's DeSantis vs Robert F. Kennedy Jr. No matter who wins we get our bodily autonomy back and corporations - whether Disney or big pharma - no longer use government like a lap dog.
Imagine in 2024 it's DeSantis vs Robert F. Kennedy Jr. No matter who wins we get our bodily autonomy back and corporations - whether Disney or big pharma - no longer use government like a lap dog.
Do you think DeSantis is really going to give us women our bodily autonomy back? So that leaves us with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. if that were the only choice. God forbid.
DeSantis is rejecting hawkishness on Ukraine.
DeSantis is rejecting hawkishness on Ukraine.
Another reason to reject him. Ukraine is bravely fighting for its life.
Another reason to reject him. Ukraine is bravely fighting for its life.
Ukraine is fighting to force areas that are majority Russian and want to be part of Russia to return to Ukraine, including Odessa which was never part of Ukraine until Yeltsin got really drunk one night and gave it to Ukraine for no apparent reason.
Now Putin shouldn't have invaded. He should have invoked the right to self-determination and had a neutral international body conduct a referendum. But it's not as black and white as you make it.
Ukraine is fighting to force areas that are majority Russian and want to be part of Russia to return to Ukraine, including Odessa which was never part of Ukraine until Yeltsin got really drunk one night and gave it to Ukraine for no apparent reason.
Now Putin shouldn't have invaded. He should have invoked the right to self-determination and had a neutral international body conduct a referendum. But it's not as black and white as you make it.
Russia invaded a sovereign nation to expand it's empire just like they invaded Georgia, but with a different reaction. That's my black and white. Whether we should be waging a proxy war might be a separate issue and less clear.
Wow, Putin's continuing efforts to influence Americans and disrupt our politics and society are paying off. See above.
See also Jessikka Aro's interesting book "Putin's Trolls". What she describes is baby stuff compared to the past few years.
Wow, Putin's continuing efforts to influence Americans and disrupt our politics and society are paying off. See above.
See also Jessikka Aro's interesting book "Putin's Trolls". What she describes is baby stuff compared to the past few years.
They used to swoop in like flying monkeys to defend Mother Russia on YouTube channels; many of them appeared to be from developing countries. Putin must have cut off their funds, as I haven't seen many lately.
happystuff
3-19-23, 6:52pm
It really is a good thing that hope - on anything! - is an individual choice instead of being dependent on politics, others, etc.
They used to swoop in like flying monkeys to defend Mother Russia on YouTube channels; many of them appeared to be from developing countries. Putin must have cut off their funds, as I haven't seen many lately.
They’re alive and well on Quora, chronicling Russia’s many victories against NATO troops as they defeat the unprovoked attack from the West.
The Wumao posters are also very active.
Practically the whole world is aligned against Brave Mother Russia. Even Japan has begun supplying body armor and protective gear to Ukraine, and China is surreptitiously supplying tanks. I can't fathom why anyone would support Putin and his incompetent invasion force, which is mostly comprised of untrained, undersupplied, and demoralized cannon fodder.
Practically the whole world is aligned against Brave Mother Russia. Even Japan has begun supplying body armor and protective gear to Ukraine, and China is surreptitiously supplying tanks. I can't fathom why anyone would support Putin and his incompetent invasion force, which is mostly comprised of untrained, undersupplied, and demoralized cannon fodder.
Not support Putin, support peace.
Because they believe in peace. In my area Massachusetts Peace Action has been speaking up including Quakers and Buddhists. In New Hampshire Libertarians have been vocal. They don't focus on just Ukraine but also Yemen, Israel/Palestine, etc.
The Ukraine war could have been mediated to a close long ago but the military-industrial complex making big profits off it controls our government. Way back in summer 2021 I went to a city meeting and a woman leaving it was frustrated she can't get funding needed for daycare in our area, yet all that money is going there, and how much has gone since?
The Ukraine war could have been mediated to a close long ago but the military-industrial complex making big profits off it controls our government.
What would mediation look like to you? “If you stop killing our children we’ll give you another piece of our country”? Didn’t they try that in the 1930’s?
As to the big bad military-industrial complex, do you really believe they’re forcing dozens of other countries to aid Ukraine? If anything, this war has highlighted how inadequate our defense production capabilities are.
As long as the Ukrainians are willing to defend themselves, I think helping them do so is a good investment in holding back the kind of barbarism the Putin regime represents.
Not support Putin, support peace.
Because they believe in peace. In my area Massachusetts Peace Action has been speaking up including Quakers and Buddhists. In New Hampshire Libertarians have been vocal. They don't focus on just Ukraine but also Yemen, Israel/Palestine, etc.
That's confusing to me? What are these groups actually saying? Not supporting Putin and supporting peace are in conflict?
What ever past history is past. Do you think the answer now is to let Russia's military run through all of Ukraine. I believe that is Putin's goal.
catherine
3-20-23, 11:09am
Disclaimer: I support Ukraine's right to self-determination, and was, and continue to be, saddened and appalled by Russia's invasion.
That being said, I am open to the idea that we don't know all the truth. Chris Hedges recently posted an article calling the US involvement in Ukraine as a "proxy war"--in other words, the US is using Ukraine as a lever in the power struggle between US and Russia. The primary goal is not democracy for Ukraine:
"There are many ways for a state to project power and weaken adversaries, but proxy wars are one of the most cynical. Proxy wars devour the countries they purport to defend. They entice nations or insurgents to fight for geopolitical goals that are ultimately not in their interest. The war in Ukraine has little to do with Ukrainian freedom and a lot to do with degrading the Russian military and weakening Vladimir Putin’s grip on power. And when Ukraine looks headed for defeat, or the war reaches a stalemate, Ukraine will be sacrificed like many other states, in what one of the founding members of the CIA, Miles Copeland Jr., referred to as the 'Game of Nations' and 'the amorality of power politics.'”
Hedges was a war correspondent for the NYT and saw the various sides of the war narratives in his experiences in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Central America. It has given him an interesting perspective on the US military-industrial complex, and I think his voice is important, even if you disagree with it. The ordinary citizen only get one side of the story.
https://scheerpost.com/2023/03/12/chris-hedges-ukraines-death-by-proxy/
That's confusing to me? What are these groups actually saying? Not supporting Putin and supporting peace are in conflict?
What ever past history is past. Do you think the answer now is to let Russia's military run through all of Ukraine. I believe that is Putin's goal.
having been a regular attender at Quaker meetings in Michigan, I believe that Yppej is correct in that for Friends, war is never the answer.
So Ukraine should just roll over and die? Good thing America's founders didn't feel that way. Some things are worth fighting for--like one's country.
Putin has posited that Poland is next. OK by you?
I find the idea of a proxy war intended to degrade the Russian military laughable, considering its soldiers are forced to supply their own weapons, struggle to make do with malfunctioning WWII-era tanks, are untrained, unfed, and unled. All Putin really has to fulfill his megalomaniacal schemes is a nuclear arsenal. What's the point? The point for Ukraine is its very existence.
While I imagine many people, including myself, would prefer that there not be war the reality is that strongmen like Putin have always, and probably will always, exist. Not fighting back guarantees that they will take what they want. Personally I’m not willing to accept that fate and apparently neither are the Ukrainians.
Not to mention that all Putin had to do to prevent a war was stay on his own side of the border. Easy.
What would mediation look like to you? “If you stop killing our children we’ll give you another piece of our country”? Didn’t they try that in the 1930’s?
As to the big bad military-industrial complex, do you really believe they’re forcing dozens of other countries to aid Ukraine? If anything, this war has highlighted how inadequate our defense production capabilities are.
As long as the Ukrainians are willing to defend themselves, I think helping them do so is a good investment in holding back the kind of barbarism the Putin regime represents.
Mediation has been offered by Turkey, but the US sabotaged it. You can't prejudge the outcome of it. Internationally supervised referenda for self-determination sounds good to me. Think of how many wars there are all around the world because borders are not based on natural ethnic or linguistic settlement patterns, but on the legacies of war and colonialism. Of course we only worry about Ukraine because the people are white. We don't care about Yemen, Congo, etc. It's like how missing/abducted white women are featured prominently in the news, but not women of color.
The military industrial complex has gotten the government to agree to bargain with other countries. Sell your old junk weapons to Ukraine and buy shiny new weapons from us.
Mediation has been offered by Turkey, but the US sabotaged it. You can't prejudge the outcome of it. Internationally supervised referenda for self-determination sounds good to me. Think of how many wars there are all around the world because borders are not based on natural ethnic or linguistic settlement patterns, but on the legacies of war and colonialism. Of course we only worry about Ukraine because the people are white. We don't care about Yemen, Congo, etc. It's like how missing/abducted white women are featured prominently in the news, but not women of color.
The military industrial complex has gotten the government to agree to bargain with other countries. Sell your old junk weapons to Ukraine and buy shiny new weapons from us.
How many treaties do these people need to dishonor, how many war crimes do they need to commit, how many innocents do they need to murder before opposing them is a legitimate position in your mind? How do you mediate between the bank robber and the bank?
You can claim some atrocities don’t get as much attention as others. You can make the obligatory claims of racism. You can concoct conspiracy theories about the “military-industrial complex”. You can impugn the motives of all involved. But none of that takes anything from the fact that this invasion was anything other than a clear and unprovoked act of aggression. That seems to be the rare consensus of the civilized world in this case.
"Disclaimer: I support Ukraine's right to self-determination, and was, and continue to be, saddened and appalled by Russia's invasion."--Catherine
"Saddened and appalled" sounds a lot like "thoughts and prayers" to me. Not helpful.
How many treaties do these people need to dishonor, how many war crimes do they need to commit, how many innocents do they need to murder before opposing them is a legitimate position in your mind? How do you mediate between the bank robber and the bank?
You can claim some atrocities don’t get as much attention as others. You can make the obligatory claims of racism. You can concoct conspiracy theories about the “military-industrial complex”. You can impugn the motives of all involved. But none of that takes anything from the fact that this invasion was anything other than a clear and unprovoked act of aggression. That seems to be the rare consensus of the civilized world in this case.
I don't have to agree with the invasion to think we should be funding Ukraine. There are countless wars around the world and we can't be the world's police officer. We don't have basics like health care for all yet we are pouring billions of dollars into a country known for its corruption (and whose company Burisma just happened to pay Biden's crackhead son $1 million a year although he had no energy experience).
The Yppej/Xi Peace Plan
https://www.history.com/.image/ar_1:1%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTU3ODc4Njc0MzgyMzMzNjYz/hith-neville-chamberlain-peace-in-our-time-1938-2.jpg
We have a huge, bloated military budget; we might as well use some of it for good. And it's not like we're alone in supporting Ukraine--the free world is unanimous in this.
"Disclaimer: I support Ukraine's right to self-determination, and was, and continue to be, saddened and appalled by Russia's invasion."--Catherine
"Saddened and appalled" sounds a lot like "thoughts and prayers" to me. Not helpful.
My disclaimer should have been clearer: I support US policy so far in our involvement. I have given money to the World Central Kitchen in support of Ukraine. I am comfortable with what we're doing so far.
I just don't always trust the narrative that comes from Washington and the media, and I recognize the need for constant vigilance that we are doing what's best as we move forward in giving Ukraine what they need without inciting further aggression from Russia. There's a slippery slope involved, and I feel better when I can read differing points of view.
... doing what's best as we move forward in giving Ukraine what they need without inciting further aggression from Russia.
What would "further aggression from Russia" look like?
https://s.abcnews.com/images/International/borodyanka-cat-rt-ps-220406_1649252007715_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg
iris lilies
3-20-23, 4:26pm
We have a huge, bloated military budget; we might as well use some of it for good. And it's not like we're alone in supporting Ukraine--the free world is unanimous in this.
Have you been paying attention to the appropriations Congress made heading to Ukraine? This is new monies going thataway, not existing monies to support the existing military structure.
Am not a fan.
Granted, when I hear someone knowledgeable talking about the money I turn it off after a minute or two because it’s just so horrifying, all of this money headed that way.
iris lilies
3-20-23, 4:28pm
What would "further aggression from Russia" look like?
https://s.abcnews.com/images/International/borodyanka-cat-rt-ps-220406_1649252007715_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg
I think you must be lacking in imagination.
Granted, when I hear someone knowledgeable talking about the money I turn it off after a minute or two because it’s just so horrifying, all of this money headed that way.
And can you imagine the cost to rebuild Ukraine once the dust settles?
(I will confess, I made quite good returns during some of our previous wars investing in companies that make construction equipment and goods like that, while the bullets were still flying, figuring that someday they'd need to rebuild...)
My disclaimer should have been clearer: I support US policy so far in our involvement. I have given money to the World Central Kitchen in support of Ukraine. I am comfortable with what we're doing so far.
I just don't always trust the narrative that comes from Washington and the media, and I recognize the need for constant vigilance that we are doing what's best as we move forward in giving Ukraine what they need without inciting further aggression from Russia. There's a slippery slope involved, and I feel better when I can read differing points of view.
I've supported the World Central Kitchen, as well as The Greater Good's fund.
I'm not sure why Ukraine is tasked with preventing more Russian aggression, under the circumstances. Putin can stop the aggression anytime he likes.
Intercepted calls from Russian soldiers in the field are interesting, along with interviews with Russian POWs. Ukraine is following Geneva convention rules, unlike Russia, with its phosphorous bombs and mass kidnappings of Ukrainian children.
It's the 20th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq and we haven't learned a thing.
It's the 20th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq and we haven't learned a thing.
I took part in anti-war demonstrations twenty years ago. I protested America invading Iraq, and I protest Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
What was I supposed to learn? That bullies should be allowed free rein?
And can you imagine the cost to rebuild Ukraine once the dust settles?
DD's father-in-law had a career as an architectural project manager in the rebuilding of Bagdad. Thinking those same profit-driven companies are waiting in the wings if and when the fighting in Ukraine stops.
I took part in anti-war demonstrations twenty years ago. I protested America invading Iraq, and I protest Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
What was I supposed to learn? That bullies should be allowed free rein?
That war is not the answer and leads to more problems. The invasion of Iraq led to ISIS.
That war is not the answer and leads to more problems.
If we followed that rule, we’d be speaking German right now. Too the extent we were allowed to speak, anyway.
That war is not the answer and leads to more problems. The invasion of Iraq led to ISIS.
Invasion is the answer, apparently. We should just issue white flags for the inevitable.
catherine
3-21-23, 12:21pm
I think this is an apples to oranges conversation because we don't have troops in Ukraine. We're just sending money and weapons, not bodies. I'm fine with that. But I think Jeppy's cautionary tale is valid. What happened with the Domino Theory and the Vietnam War? What happened in Afghanistan? What happened in Iraq? All wars that cost a lot and accomplished little. The Iraq War was based on a lie, or at least an unfortunate misjudgment if you don't agree that there were ulterior motives for going there.
So, I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning any war or conflict before we get in too deep.
Is the Russian invasion of Ukraine and their behaviour there, a lie?
I'm on board with our proxy war, but I suspect there are various territorial wars and land grabs around the world right now. It's a little different when it involves a former or present global super power with ambitions to re-establish continental dominance. If you can trust the news just a little it's obvious that is Putin's long term objective. It probably also makes a cultural difference when first and second world nations are at stake and they look a lot like our European ancestors.
Is the Russian invasion of Ukraine and their behaviour there, a lie?
No. I never said that.
I read Serhii Plokhy's "The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine" last year, and y'all might find it interesting/helpful.
I read Serhii Plokhy's "The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine" last year, and y'all might find it interesting/helpful.
Do you think we're not doing enough?
If we followed that rule, we’d be speaking German right now. Too the extent we were allowed to speak, anyway.
No, they weren't going to come across the Atlantic. They wanted lebensraum in Europe.
Invasion is the answer, apparently. We should just issue white flags for the inevitable.
No, if we are attacked we should defend ourselves, but not be the world's police officer. And we don't need a big standing army. A citizen militia will do, like Switzerland has. Other countries don't go around attacking them because they mind their own business.
No, if we are attacked we should defend ourselves, but not be the world's police officer. And we don't need a big standing army. A citizen militia will do, like Switzerland has. Other countries don't go around attacking them because they mind their own business.
From a philosophical perspective, if you neighbor's house were on fire and there was some risk of running in to save him, what would you do. Me first?
No, if we are attacked we should defend ourselves, but not be the world's police officer. And we don't need a big standing army. A citizen militia will do, like Switzerland has. Other countries don't go around attacking them because they mind their own business.
Ukraine has certainly mobilized its citizens, but a puny militia wouldn't have deterred Russia, with its huge Potemkin army and its ambitions of domination in the region. Ukraine's musing about joining NATO didn't justify its being attacked. I devoutly hope Russia (and Putin) is destroyed in this genocidal invasion.
I wonder what the nay sayers opinions are on NATO and our contractual agreements to defend them in case of invasion? And how this is different regardless of the contract.
I wonder what the nay sayers opinions are on NATO and our contractual agreements to defend them in case of invasion? And how this is different regardless of the contract.
For fun, read letters to the editor from the late 1930s...
People haven't really changed.
No, they weren't going to come across the Atlantic. They wanted lebensraum in Europe.
Sure, because once an aggressor is satisfied it’s never hungry again.
littlebittybobby
3-22-23, 11:27am
Okay--It pains me greatly, to see innocent Catts suffering on account o' stoopid people. Also, where's her catt carriwer? So anyway--if the ukrainian bad leadership really cared, they would step down, and sign an armistice with those Ruskies. Like the old saying: "Better Red than dead". Yup. There's a rumor going round the net, that just in case the misleADER HAS TOhas to flee and live in exile, he's already got a secure property lined up in Fla. See? You just know what they say about true rumors. But yeah---what the USA historically does is get more people killed and more destruction tone, by "helping", the Demmacrat way. True story. Hope that helps you kids some. Thankk mee.
Teacher Terry
3-22-23, 4:51pm
Catherine, I agree that there’s 2 sides to the story of Ukraine. My DIL’s family lives in Poland and they are glad they joined nato because previously they were always being taken over. They hate the Russians for obvious reasons.
Catherine, I agree that there’s 2 sides to the story of Ukraine.
What "side" justifies Russia's current actions in Ukraine?
Are you attempting to establish some sort of moral equivalence between the "sides"?
I’ll grant that geopolitics often involve amoral or morally ambiguous decisions, but every so often a situation arises that doesn’t have much gray area. I think that’s the case here. That there are, in fact, uglier things than war.
No gray area in the invasion of Ukraine in my mind. Putin has variously said that he's liberating the country from Nazis, that Ukraine has no sovereign standing, and that he's OK with genocide there. I'm relieved that most of the civilized world has taken up arms against him.
Teacher Terry
3-23-23, 12:28pm
From what I have read Putin wanted the parts of Ukraine where the people are Russian, speak Russian and want to be part of Russia. Now I also hate Putin and who knows if that would have satisfied him but it was worth exploring through talks before the war started.
From what I have read Putin wanted the parts of Ukraine where the people are Russian, speak Russian and want to be part of Russia. Now I also hate Putin and who knows if that would have satisfied him but it was worth exploring through talks before the war started.
You could say that of many other countries previously occupied by the USSR. Does Great Britain have a right to parts of Canada for the same reason?
Wait a few years and the war will end eventually and Russia will have the Donbass and Odessa, and a lot of people will have been killed, injured and made homeless unnecessarily. The only beneficiaries are the weapons manufacturers.
Wait a few years and the war will end eventually and Russia will have the Donbass and Odessa, and a lot of people will have been killed, injured and made homeless unnecessarily. The only beneficiaries are the weapons manufacturers.
Sometimes the evil side wins. Is that any reason to give up on resisting evil? And there seems very little doubt as to who is the evil side here.
The Ukrainians obviously think their freedom is worth fighting for. As long as they are, I think anyone aiding them is on that “right side of history” I keep hearing about.
iris lilies
3-23-23, 4:10pm
What "side" justifies Russia's current actions in Ukraine?
Are you attempting to establish some sort of moral equivalence between the "sides"?
Does the United States have any responsibility in this, any at all? Not an “equivalent” necessarily but was there an action (or two or three) that could be characterized as provoking this? And could there have been some talking, peace talks if you will, prior, and during the Ukrainian invasion?
Probably when Reagan said "tear down that wall!".
Does the United States have any responsibility in this, any at all? Not an “equivalent” necessarily but was there an action (or two or three) that could be characterized as provoking this? And could there have been some talking, peace talks if you will, prior, and during the Ukrainian invasion?
Russia talks a lot about NATO aggression, but that seems to just mean accepting new members from among its former vassal states.
Some blame weak responses by the West to prior aggressions in Crimea, Georgia and Chechnya, but I’m not sure a low level of deterrence amounts to a provocation. Biden’s unfortunate remarks about “minor incursions”, were unhelpful but not really a cause of the invasion in my mind.
Sometimes the evil side wins. Is that any reason to give up on resisting evil? And there seems very little doubt as to who is the evil side here.
The Ukrainians obviously think their freedom is worth fighting for. As long as they are, I think anyone aiding them is on that “right side of history” I keep hearing about.
The Ukrainians don't have a choice. Men of fighting age are not allowed to leave the country. They are forcibly conscripted. This is not proof that they support the war because they are coerced.
Someone’s been drinking the red koolaid…
Someone’s been drinking the red koolaid…
Someone doesn't watch mainstream news like CBS, ABC, NBC.
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