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iris lilies
3-29-23, 7:45pm
Trans Day of Vengeance Today.

So, this should be fun.

This day was planned before the trans person shot up those little kids in Nashville. One trans activist said it was just a right wing organization, that school, anyway.

https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/trans-activist-calls-nashville-school-right-wing-institution-day-after-mass-shooting-eli-erlick-a-transgender-activist-trans-student-educational-resources#

bae
3-29-23, 8:29pm
What is the history and composition of the "group" Trans Radical Activist Network that is promoting the "event"?

A quick look at their DNS entry shows: "Creation Date: 2022-07-05 T20:22:37Z"

Their website is sparsely constructed.

Their Twitter account was created June 2022, they are following nobody, and have 405 followers. They seem to have not tweeted any public tweets since creation.

A quick search through Twitter reveals mostly right-wing/MAGA folks going ape over the event. In particular, looking at accounts of people in the pro trans rights arena, I find very little mention of the event, previous to the news blowup today.

So, I have questions...

Fnord

iris lilies
3-29-23, 8:40pm
https://www.gaysagainstgroomers.com/post/deranged-trans-extremist-attacks-nashville-christian-school-our-opinion

here’s an opinion piece by the group “Gays Against Groomers” that includes these thoughts:

“…There is no such thing as trans genocide.The transgender ideologues are using this rhetoric to further radicalize their community to commit violent crimes as a solution to policy debate. (https://twitter.com/i/status/1640571861036683264)And they slander anybody who questions their motives, referring to them as oppressors in order to justify their pathological thinking…”

“…When they are questioned, they claim that they want to “Protect Trans Kids.” That is a lie. Protecting kids does not entail actively destroying the lives of minors who do not abide by sexist stereotypes of how boys and girls ought to act. Every single one of these children are victims of medical abuse by doctors who hate them….”


“…No demographic has the civil right to castrate other people’s children. Standing against these lunatics is not a political issue – it’s a moral issue…”

iris lilies
3-29-23, 8:41pm
The radical trans activist who shot several nine year olds dead in
Nashville left as his manifesto “You hurt our kids…we kill your kids.”

iris lilies
3-29-23, 8:48pm
What is the history and composition of the "group" Trans Radical Activist Network that is promoting the "event"?

A quick look at their DNS entry shows: "Creation Date: 2022-07-05 T20:22:37Z"

Their website is sparsely constructed.

Their Twitter account was created June 2022, they are following nobody, and have 405 followers. They seem to have not tweeted any public tweets since creation.

A quick search through Twitter reveals mostly right-wing/MAGA folks going ape over the event. In particular, looking at accounts of people in the pro trans rights arena, I find very little mention of the event, previous to the news blowup today.

So, I have questions...

Fnord
https://www.metro.us/twitter-removes-tweets-about-trans-day-of-vengeance/

Twitter Central is removing thousands of tweets promoting the event. Or perhaps, as you suggest, re tweeting the info to right wingers. We shall see how many show up, but I do not expect there to be many, if any. The tweeting and getting all riled up is pretty much the point.

bae
3-29-23, 8:50pm
So many false flags, so little time.

iris lilies
3-29-23, 9:07pm
So many false flags, so little time.


do you think Gays Against Groomers is a hate group? Just going on the 3 quotes in post #3, is that hate talk?

do you support open dialogue about transgender issues?

do you support open dialog about medicalized treatment of trans minors?

do you think it is ok for minors to call Planned Parenthood on the phone and get a prescription for hormones without talking to a therapist even once? What about a minor who sees a therapist one time, then gets a prescription for hormones? Let’s assume that is true. Is that ok?

Are you aware of all of the health issue that can stem from hormone blockers that are supposedly benign? Or even 3 of them?

See, I have questions, too.

bae
3-29-23, 9:16pm
Note also the dates of Gays Against Groomers Twitter account creation date (oddly, June 2022) and the date of registration of their domain.

Note the background and history of the founder of Gays Against Groomers.

Then ask yourself a few questions....

iris lilies
3-29-23, 9:24pm
What is the history and composition of the "group" Trans Radical Activist Network that is promoting the "event"?

A quick look at their DNS entry shows: "Creation Date: 2022-07-05 T20:22:37Z"

Their website is sparsely constructed.

Their Twitter account was created June 2022, they are following nobody, and have 405 followers. They seem to have not tweeted any public tweets since creation.

A quick search through Twitter reveals mostly right-wing/MAGA folks going ape over the event. In particular, looking at accounts of people in the pro trans rights arena, I find very little mention of the event, previous to the news blowup today.

So, I have questions...

Fnord

If an ABC News affiliate is reliable enough for you, this article says that the Trans Radical Activist Network sent out a a press release about the Vengeance Wreaking day, and then said they would make no further comment. This is why you can’t find anything on their own website.

They did, however, somewhere mention that the Nashville shooting was a tragedy, so thanks and kudos to them???

Doncha think it’s just a little tone deaf of the vengeance mongers to not postpone their day for a bit, you know just until the Nashville thing calms down. I don’t know I guess I’m just a hater.

https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/trans-day-of-vengeance-protest-continues-as-planned-following-nashville-shooting-trans-radical-activist-network-the-covenant-school

bae
3-29-23, 9:28pm
You miss my point, perhaps.

My questions are about the group sponsoring/announcing/planning the event you started the thread about.

They seem....sketchy. In my intersection with the LGBTQ world, I've seen nobody with prior knowledge of this event, know nobody planning to go, have seen no prior "chatter" of any non-silly sort.

These are signs to me that this is a nothing-burger of a viral campaign meant to manufacture outrage and clicks.

Something our society is quite vulnerable to right now, and more so with each passing day.

iris lilies
3-29-23, 9:50pm
You miss my point, perhaps.

My questions are about the group sponsoring/announcing/planning the event you started the thread about.

They seem....sketchy. In my intersection with the LGBTQ world, I've seen nobody with prior knowledge of this event, know nobody planning to go, have seen no prior "chatter" of any non-silly sort.

These are signs to me that this is a nothing-burger of a viral campaign meant to manufacture outrage and clicks.

Something our society is quite vulnerable to right now, and more so with each passing day.

it seems to me that the questions I ask you are legitimate, regardless of who brings them up in dialog about transgender issues, regardless of when the Gays Against Groomers registered their website, but if you don’t wish to talk about those issues, I can’t make you.

You may be right that the vengeance day is a nothing burger. I’ve already said I doubt many if any show up in Washington DC.

But clearly a trans person exacted revenge on society in Nashville a couple of days ago, Ne’st-ce pas?

clearly, a main stream Democratic operative in the state of Arizona is Cruisin for a Bruisin based on her tweet.

jp1
3-30-23, 7:40am
Since shootings like this are just a normal part of American life I don’t see why this group, if they exist, should feel the need to delay things. All that will do is have them run the risk of scheduling their event after another mass shooting.

iris lilies
3-30-23, 8:11am
Since shootings like this are just a normal part of American life I don’t see why this group, if they exist, should feel the need to delay things. All that will do is have them run the risk of scheduling their event after another mass shooting.
Well, that is true. Good point, just another testosterone fueled school shooting.

ToomuchStuff
3-30-23, 8:58am
Well, that is true. Good point, just another testosterone fueled school shooting.

Estrogen, don't you mean?

iris lilies
3-30-23, 9:08am
Estrogen, don't you mean?
No, This person may have been hyped up on T. Notice my speculative language. One does not have to have cross sex hormones to have a gender transformation but it is popular in that group.

littlebittybobby
3-30-23, 10:22am
Okay---I've reached the conclusion that anyone who walks point for a cause in that manner(AKA Activist), is mentally ill. Any shrink who denies that is also mentally ill. Any drug they took only increased it.
Hope that helps you kids. Thankk Mee.5295

bae
3-30-23, 12:03pm
Well, that is true. Good point, just another testosterone fueled school shooting.

The whole "testosterone-fueled" business is a canard perhaps, and the situation is a bit more complicated than a simplistic sexist analysis.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/governing-behavior/202208/don-t-blame-the-testes-all-aggression

Teacher Terry
3-30-23, 12:46pm
IL, I have many of the same questions as you about trans kids and medical intervention before the age of 18. I know you have to balance that with youth suicide rates if not allowed to transition but kids making life altering decisions need to be slowed down until old enough to make the right decision for themselves especially for decisions that may be irreversible.

iris lilies
3-31-23, 10:23am
What is the history and composition of the "group" Trans Radical Activist Network that is promoting the "event"?

A quick look at their DNS entry shows: "Creation Date: 2022-07-05 T20:22:37Z"

Their website is sparsely constructed.

Their Twitter account was created June 2022, they are following nobody, and have 405 followers. They seem to have not tweeted any public tweets since creation.

A quick search through Twitter reveals mostly right-wing/MAGA folks going ape over the event. In particular, looking at accounts of people in the pro trans rights arena, I find very little mention of the event, previous to the news blowup today.

So, I have questions...

Fnord

well, bae, I think this Trans Day of Vengeance is wider spread than you think. On a financial forum I frequent, the resident trans person is bragging about presenting a TDOV program to a workplace. Vive la Vengeance!

God how happy I am that I am out of the workplace and I don’t have to sit through crap like this.

LDAHL
3-31-23, 11:42am
well, bae, I think this Trans Day of Vengeance is wider spread than you think.

Yeah. My trans kid grabbed the last muffin.

iris lilies
3-31-23, 1:44pm
I stand corrected. Today’s “TDOV” that I am seeing chatter about in forums may be Trans Day of Visibility.

so, that is a different thing. Mea culpa.

LDAHL
3-31-23, 1:50pm
I stand corrected. Today’s “TDOV” that I am seeing chatter about in forums may be Trans Day of Visibility.

so, that is a different thing. Mea culpa.

I still want my muffin back.

JaneV2.0
3-31-23, 2:02pm
I thought that "vengeance" crap was absolutely ridiculous--just more flame-fanning by the right.

bae
3-31-23, 2:13pm
I thought that "vengeance" crap was absolutely ridiculous--just more flame-fanning by the right.

I will note that today, March 31, is the International Day Of Trans Visibility, and has been since 2009.

And pretty much everyone I know in the trans/trans-allied space knows about that one. But hardly any had heard of the Vengeance Day until it hit the headlines with Marjorie Taylor Green and her compatriots going on about it.

Things that make you go “hmmmmm”….

JaneV2.0
3-31-23, 3:16pm
I wonder if there's an National Day of Incel Vengeance. Or an International Day of Racial Vengeance. So many violence-prone actors-out, so little press attention to their motives.

iris lilies
4-7-23, 3:47pm
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/07/dylan-mulvaney-nike-ad-trans-backlash/

please note the news source for you special snowflakes who require leftie loo sources.

Did last week’s Day of Trans V bring us this latest abomination? The obnoxious twit Dylan Mulvaney is now shilling products for Nike and for Bud Light.

Why THIS particular trans girl gets ALL the representation opportunities including prancing into the White House for whatever reason Sleepy Old Joe thinks is important is beyond me. Aren’t there lots of other trans girls who could represent, ones that might actually not be complete laughing stock characters?

Dylan can gush about her periods, her girlhood, her dotty concepts of femininity on her own videos. So be it, it’s a free country. But I find her simpering imitations of a woman offensive. What a blatent stereotype of the female sex she portrays.

Back in the day we could enjoy RuPaul type queens, showing us their exaggerated vision of ultra womanhood, views that were presented as entertainment. Maybe Dylan is doing cosplay entertainment, I don’t know, but so far, I’m thinking she expects me to accept her as a woman and that ain’t happening, baby.

RuPaul never asked me to accept her as a woman.

Women in general have a whole lot more substance than Dylan Mulvaney ever will be able to portray.

bae
4-7-23, 3:59pm
Did last week’s Day of Trans V bring us this latest abomination? The obnoxious twit Dylan Mulvaney is now shilling products for Nike and for Bud Light.



But speaking of violence and Bid Light, how about that Kid Rock going full-auto with a submachine gun at a case of Bud Light in protest of whatever the heck Bud Light did(*)?

That probably helps trans folks feel less at-risk, yes?

(*) I mean, sure, shooting up a case to protest the fact that they have the audacity to call their product "beer", I could get behind...

iris lilies
4-7-23, 4:12pm
But speaking of violence and Bid Light, how about that Kid Rock going full-auto with a submachine gun at a case of Bud Light in protest of whatever the heck Bud Light did(*)?

That probably helps trans folks feel less at-risk, yes?

(*) I mean, sure, shooting up a case to protest the fact that they have the audacity to call their product "beer", I could get behind...
Who knows, Anheuser-Busch my local brewery may have consciously paired the simpering notagirl with the bland notabeer to make a joke.Only we aren’t laughing. Maybe we need to.

bae
4-7-23, 4:20pm
Who knows, Anheuser-Busch my local brewery may have consciously paired the simpering notagirl with the bland notabeer to make a joke.Only we aren’t laughing. Maybe we need to.

I find it simpler to just make my own beer than to get involved in Cultural Beer Wars. (I'm a sucker for watching the the Budweiser Clydesdales though, what lovely animals!)

iris lilies
4-7-23, 4:39pm
I find it simpler to just make my own beer than to get involved in Cultural Beer Wars. (I'm a sucker for watching the the Budweiser Clydesdales though, what lovely animals!)
One of my tiny houses was mere blocks from the Clydesdale stables, well, the stables in the city anyway. They were immaculate and beautiful, the stables.

here in Hermann, the local gentry have collected draft horses that are Black Shires. Once in a while on a lucky day, I can see one of the Shires being walked around the village.

iris lilies
4-7-23, 4:47pm
But speaking of violence and Bid Light, how about that Kid Rock going full-auto with a submachine gun at a case of Bud Light in protest of whatever the heck Bud Light did(*)?

That probably helps trans folks feel less at-risk, yes?

(*) I mean, sure, shooting up a case to protest the fact that they have the audacity to call their product "beer", I could get behind...
I have 0 confidence that any reasonable action by reasonable people will make those trans activist folks’ big unhappy feelings of victimhood and depression any less so. Therefore, I don’t worry about it.

Alan
4-7-23, 4:52pm
.......paired the simpering notagirl with the bland notabeer......
LOL, now that's funny, and appropriate too!

early morning
4-7-23, 6:17pm
[QUOTE][here in Hermann, the local gentry have collected draft horses that are Black Shires. Once in a while on a lucky day, I can see one of the Shires being walked around the village./QUOTE] Ok, now i'm REALLY jealous. I love draft animals, especially horses. A local vet has a team of black Clydesdales. They are stunning.

iris lilies
4-8-23, 12:30pm
[QUOTE][here in Hermann, the local gentry have collected draft horses that are Black Shires. Once in a while on a lucky day, I can see one of the Shires being walked around the village./QUOTE] Ok, now i'm REALLY jealous. I love draft animals, especially horses. A local vet has a team of black Clydesdales. They are stunning.

https://hermannfarm.org/shires

these folks are saving the breed, according to what they say. It’s a nice effort.

early morning
4-8-23, 12:53pm
Thanks for that info, IL! Next time we get over that way, I think we'll sign up for a visit to the farm. They are stunning animals. I think I'll put "visit representatives of all breeds of registered draft horses" on my bucket list, lol.

iris lilies
4-14-23, 4:56pm
LOL, now that's funny, and appropriate too!
The CEO of Anheuser - Busch issued a multi paragraph response that basically said: we didn’t mean harm, we want to make beer people like, God bless America.

None of what he said is objectionable, of course, but I would like to see somebody big get fired

iris lilies
4-14-23, 4:57pm
P.s. I like this formum because we can talk about trans issues and also draft horse issues, and no one gets their panties in a twist because we are not staying on topic.

bae
4-14-23, 5:03pm
P.s. I like this formum because we can talk about trans issues and also draft horse issues, and no one gets their panties in a twist because we are not staying on topic.

If you don't post more horse pictures, I may however have to rant.

There are a couple of people here who farm with horses, and one small logging operation that uses them, I'll have to grab the camera and see what I can find.

bae
4-14-23, 5:04pm
The CEO of Anheuser - Busch issued a multi paragraph response that basically said: we didn’t mean harm, we want to make beer people like, God bless America.


Did the CEO lay out any believable plan for how they are going to be making beer like that?

iris lilies
4-14-23, 5:10pm
Did the CEO lay out any believable plan for how they are going to be making beer like that?
No. He is a maker of bland statements and bland beer.

Alan
4-14-23, 5:56pm
Did the CEO lay out any believable plan for how they are going to be making beer like that?
No, but he did mention that he was a veteran and supported first responders. I'm not sure what the point of his statement really was.

Meanwhile, biological male Dylan Mulvaney continues as a brand ambassador for female centric items such as sports bras and tampons. I'm beginning to believe that we actually do live within a computer simulation.

iris lilies
4-15-23, 7:41am
Trans ballet dancers are making inroads into women’s spaces.

This dancer, Jayna Ledford, has merit but will still be taking a coveted female position in a dance company from a natal female if successful in her goal of dancing professionally. She’s pretty tall for female roles and would never be considered for a professional company in a non-trans world.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HoUSKJMDoXs&pp=ygUbc29waGllIHJlYmVjY2Egcm95YWwgYmFsbGV0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fD_3lUpCTM0&pp=ygUTVHJhbnMgYmFsbGV0IGRhbmNlcg%3D%3D

This British dancer Sophie Rebecca isn’t making it on merit. How many trained and talented girls did this middle aged man bump in this Royal Ballet Academy dance program? Then Someone made a pretty dance piece starring Sophie Rebecca, and sent her all the way across the pond to America to perform it. At the end, the female dancers all pay her homage by giving her flowers. This is shameful, just another man muscling his way into women’s spaces.

if Sophie Rebecca wants to pay fees to dance at her local studio, good for her and I think that’s fine. But that’s not what’s going on here, women have been tromped on, stepped over, and erased so that this lunk could get on stage.

Once again, actions of the community surrounding this trans person are obsequious, canceling women in the space.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dHIz3HFbvtQ&pp=ygUTVHJhbnMgYmFsbGV0IGRhbmNlcg%3D%3D

jp1
4-15-23, 9:16am
I'm beginning to believe that we actually do live within a computer simulation.

That’s been obvious since the glitch that happened in November 2016.

iris lilies
4-15-23, 10:55am
That’s been obvious since the glitch that happened in November 2016.

See, what did I tell ya, this thread meanders all over the place: trans issues, draft horses, and now Donald Trump.

It’s just that JP ALWAYS goes there.

jp1
4-15-23, 12:57pm
See, what did I tell ya, this thread meanders all over the place: trans issues, draft horses, and now Donald Trump.

It’s just that JP ALWAYS goes there.

I tried to bring in Tim Scott's statement that black women have high rates of poverty because they get abortions, but as much as I enjoy playing with words I just couldn't think of any way to make that make sense in any context, much less the context of the computer simulation we're 'living' in.

LDAHL
4-17-23, 10:09am
I was pleased to see that Tim Scott may soon be announcing his candidacy for President. He’s probably the closest this generation will get to the full Reagan package.

If he gets any traction at all. It will get harder for the various groups with an interest in keeping the trumpster fires burning.

jp1
4-17-23, 2:43pm
It's a shame Tim Scott doesn't believe in Federalism. Or is that completely out of the republican priority handbook now?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/04/14/tim-scott-abortion-ban-6-weeks/

Alan
4-17-23, 3:14pm
It's a shame Tim Scott doesn't believe in Federalism.
What, is he acting too much like a Democrat for your taste?

jp1
4-17-23, 3:27pm
What, is he acting too much like a Democrat for your taste?

So, state's rights has always been negotiable for republicans? That seems to be a relatively recent development in Republican idealogy. I wonder if any of the great thinkers in LDAHL's library have written about this change of attitude.

ApatheticNoMore
4-17-23, 3:33pm
I tried to bring in Tim Scott's statement that black women have high rates of poverty because they get abortions, but as much as I enjoy playing with words I just couldn't think of any way to make that make sense in any context, much less the context of the computer simulation we're 'living' in.

how about "if you think abortion is expensive, try the cost of raising a kid"

Alan
4-17-23, 3:47pm
So, state's rights has always been negotiable for republicans? That seems to be a relatively recent development in Republican idealogy. I wonder if any of the great thinkers in LDAHL's library have written about this change of attitude.
How about a thought exercise? What if, instead of federal legislation limiting states ability to allow abortions past a certain period, he was actually talking about federal legislation recognizing the life, and subsequent right to life, of a fetus at a certain point in its development? Legislation not mentioning abortion but rather recognizing the moral imperative of protecting the unborn's natural, God given right to life that all we previously born enjoy.

Or, as long as you're focused on federalism when it suits you, suppose that a Democratic candidate proposed federal legislation legalizing abortion upon demand at any time during gestation up to the moment of birth. Would that be something you would denounce as over-reach, or would you applaud it in a 'ends justifies the means' sort of way?

jp1
4-17-23, 4:23pm
So you think the federal government should be codifying that women don’t have bodily autonomy? I suppose when you look at it that way, sure, it’s not a federalism issue. And eight the Supreme Court currently stacked with federalist society hacks the absurdity that a potential future human has more rights than the woman whose body it currently depends on to make it to the point of being a human might actually be judged to be constitutional.

Alan
4-17-23, 4:43pm
So you think the federal government should be codifying that women don’t have bodily autonomy? No, your usurpation of this thread isn't about abortion, it's a branch you've dedicated to federalism in hopes of exposing a potential GOP candidate as a hypocrite. Please try to stay on whatever topic you think best accomplishes that.

But to better answer your question in spite of your re-focusing on abortion in hopes of making me look indifferent to women, my thought exercise had nothing to do with women, it had to do with recognizing the second life in the equation and the possibility of legislatively recognizing its natural right to life and equal protection under the law, and whether or not that would be an example of federalism in your mind.

jp1
4-17-23, 7:22pm
Actually this thread is about a fictitious trans event. But like so many threads on this board it has morphed and changed over time to topics not particularly close to the original.

As soon as we start giving out conception certificates you might have a point. But currently there are zero other situations where a fetus has any rights. Parents can't claim a tax deduction for one. Immigrants can't claim the fetus to be a US citizen unless they ultimately are born on US soil. The census doesn't include them for purposes of figuring out how many congresspeople a state should have. On down to the mundane. Someone who is pregnant without anyone else in her car is going to get a ticket if she's caught in the car pool lane on the freeway.

Alan
4-17-23, 7:27pm
Actually this thread is about a fictitious trans event. But like so many threads on this board it has morphed and changed over time to topics not particularly close to the original.

As soon as we start giving out conception certificates you might have a point. But currently there are zero other situations where a fetus has any rights. Parents can't claim a tax deduction for one. Immigrants can't claim the fetus to be a US citizen unless they ultimately are born on US soil. The census doesn't include them for purposes of figuring out how many congresspeople a state should have. On down to the mundane. Someone who is pregnant without anyone else in her car is going to get a ticket if she's caught in the car pool lane on the freeway.
And yet a person can be charged with two counts of murder if the victim is pregnant. Weird huh?

But we've been through all this before, I'm more interested in your views on federalism since you keep bringing it up. I'm sure there's plenty of times you're in favor of the Feds stepping on states rights and plenty of other times when you're not. Does that make you a hypocrite too, guilty of wrong think and an example of why all members of your preferred political party are also guilty through association? Or does that just make you human?

jp1
4-17-23, 7:54pm
Except that the democrats have never been the WE BELIEVE IN THE ESSENTIAL CRITICALITY OF FEDERALISM to the US experiment party. That would be the republicans ever since they started screeching federalism/state's rights to justify their desire to continue Jim Crow despite the civil rights acts came into existence in the 60's.

Alan
4-17-23, 8:05pm
Except that the democrats have never been the WE BELIEVE IN THE ESSENTIAL CRITICALITY OF FEDERALISM
Which brings us back to my original response to your earlier post, "Is he acting too much like a Democrat for your taste"?


That would be the republicans ever since they started screeching federalism/state's rights to justify their desire to continue Jim Crow despite the civil rights acts came into existence in the 60's.
Do I have to keep reminding you that those were Democrats, you remember, the party of the KKK, right?

But that's all fairly recent history. The states rights issue goes back to our country's founding. It was sort of an important part of the limits on Federal power. The restriction has been abused over and over and over again since then and being a Republican I'm not particularly in favor of continuing down that road, it seems sort of Fascisty to me. But you do you boo!

jp1
4-17-23, 8:12pm
Which brings us back to my original response to your earlier post, "Is he acting too much like a Democrat for your taste"?

He wants the federal government to have control of women’s bodies. So no, this one minor democraticangle he’s taking doesn’t impress me much. It just tells me that he thinks abandoning federalism is a convenient way to score a few primary votes despite the fact that it will lose him the general election.

frugal-one
4-17-23, 8:39pm
Which brings us back to my original response to your earlier post, "Is he acting too much like a Democrat for your taste"?

[/COLOR]
Do I have to keep reminding you that those were Democrats, you remember, the party of the KKK, right?

But that's all fairly recent history. The states rights issue goes back to our country's founding. It was sort of an important part of the limits on Federal power. The restriction has been abused over and over and over again since then and being a Republican I'm not particularly in favor of continuing down that road, it seems sort of Fascisty to me. But you do you boo!

What are you talking about?

CLAIM: The Ku Klux Klan was formed by the Democratic Party. AP'S ASSESSMENT: False. The Ku Klux Klan was not formed by the Democratic Party. THE FACTS: The Klan first emerged after the Civil War in an effort to intimidate Southern blacks to stay out of politics and to exploit their labor.

Alan
4-17-23, 8:42pm
He wants the federal government to have control of women’s bodies.
Like me, I think he's not at all interested in having control of women's bodies, he's interested in preserving the natural rights of persons not-yet-born. You seem to be an outlier on this since a large majority of previously born people agree that those rights do exist, they just disagree on when they kick in. And again like me, he probably believes that a Federal recognition of that right after a certain point of development does not violate states rights since no US State seems to believe that humans do not enjoy a right to life.

Alan
4-17-23, 8:45pm
What are you talking about?

CLAIM: The Ku Klux Klan was formed by the Democratic Party. AP'S ASSESSMENT: False. The Ku Klux Klan was not formed by the Democratic Party. THE FACTS: The Klan first emerged after the Civil War in an effort to intimidate Southern blacks to stay out of politics and to exploit their labor.

I didn't say they were formed by the Democratic Party, although it's common knowledge and a historical fact that they were southern Democrats and an effective enforcer of the various state party's policies during reconstruction.

jp1
4-17-23, 9:27pm
Thankfully the post civil war Democratic Party priorities of using state’s rates to justify enforcing racism are no longer a part of our platform. If they were still the racism party I wouldn’t be a member. Republicans took that platform on sixty years ago when it suited their desire to win over southern racists and now they own that crap.

Alan
4-17-23, 9:52pm
Thankfully the post civil war Democratic Party priorities of using state’s rates to justify enforcing racism are no longer a part of our platform. If they were still the racism party I wouldn’t be a member. Republicans took that platform on sixty years ago when it suited their desire to win over southern racists and now they own that crap.
Now that's a pretty interesting interpretation that we could probably explore at great length in another more appropriate thread. Meanwhile, I'll close on that subject with another observation. It seems to me that the Democratic Party simply changed the methods in which they control other races. It began when LBJ attracted minorities to the party by creating a massive welfare state which bought support with public monies, although destroying much of its society by rewarding the dissolution of strong family structures. It's now perpetuated by white liberals who are convinced that everyone not like them are victims who's only means of success are those same white liberals actively embracing a political system designed to keep them just comfortable enough to be happy while simultaneously eroding the societal structures under which they could thrive. That may be a little more subtle than the racism of old, but it's still racism.

If you want to discuss that observation further, start another thread and I'll join you there.

jp1
4-17-23, 9:57pm
Dude. I’m impressed. Clearly you got all the faxes of Republican talking points over the years. Bravo. If you want to start a new thread I will likely participate. But in the meantime I’ll stand down since you are clearly waaaaaay more invested in ‘republicans aren’t racists’ than I am in convincing people otherwise. It’s no wonder you proudly voted for trump twice.

frugal-one
4-18-23, 7:51am
I didn't say they were formed by the Democratic Party, although it's common knowledge and a historical fact that they were southern Democrats and an effective enforcer of the various state party's policies during reconstruction.

Common knowledge only by you obviously.

Alan
4-18-23, 10:05am
Common knowledge only by you obviously.
Believe it or not, PBS even knows it. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/grant-kkk/

iris lilies
4-20-23, 12:03am
Last fall a women’s college sorority accepted into their fold a trans member. Heartwarming? Oh yes, I am sure the college was going for those WOKE points!
https://www.uwbrandingiron.com/2022/10/12/kappa-kappa-gamma-first-to-accept-open-transgender-student-in-uw-history/


But now, the real story is appearing, the real story being these young women were not given their usual opportunity to blackball members. In the case of this trans person, they were forced to vote openly, and just state the reason for not accepting the trans person into their sorority.

Even more concerning (although not surprising) the trans person sexually harassed the girls while staying in the sorority house.

https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-woman-accused-peeping-kappa-kappa-gamma-sorority-wyoming-1791808


why am I not surprised that the Me Too movement which was so hot a short time ago is now out the window, and it’s perfectly OK to harass women, to force oneself on them if one is male, to invade their spaces. Society applauds it.

jp1
4-20-23, 12:20am
The sorority should have stuck with the secret ballot method of being able to blackball probationary members. Yes, that would have likely resulted in this person being blackballed. And the sisters that wanted to be the first Wyoming sorority to have a trans sister would have been pissed. But it wouldn't likely have destroyed the sisterhood the way this did. I doubt their sorority chapter will recover from this.

iris lilies
4-20-23, 7:24am
The sorority should have stuck with the secret ballot method of being able to blackball probationary members. Yes, that would have likely resulted in this person being blackballed. And the sisters that wanted to be the first Wyoming sorority to have a trans sister would have been pissed. But it wouldn't likely have destroyed the sisterhood the way this did. I doubt their sorority chapter will recover from this.

exactly! Agreed.


I also think there are trans women these sorority girls would embrace, just not this …person.

LDAHL
4-20-23, 10:46am
The sorority should have stuck with the secret ballot method of being able to blackball probationary members. Yes, that would have likely resulted in this person being blackballed. And the sisters that wanted to be the first Wyoming sorority to have a trans sister would have been pissed. But it wouldn't likely have destroyed the sisterhood the way this did. I doubt their sorority chapter will recover from this.

“Anyone wanting death threats, doxxing and physical attacks, please raise your hand.”

iris lilies
4-20-23, 1:15pm
If you don't post more horse pictures, I may however have to rant.

There are a couple of people here who farm with horses, and one small logging operation that uses them, I'll have to grab the camera and see what I can find.

Anheuser Busch pushed out a Clydesdale ad a couple of days ago, and it was the typical Clydesdale video where they’re clomping along with scenes of America behind them including #1 Busch place and the Arch in St. Louis.

These horses are so calming and beautiful. I always wonder about things like this, if Anheuser had this bland ad and others like it in the can, ready to pull out anytime they need damage control. Clydesdales to the rescue!

P. S. I drove down #1 Busch Place yesterday and it’s still standing, so the Bud fiasco has not crumbled it yet.

iris lilies
4-22-23, 1:27pm
The CEO of Anheuser - Busch issued a multi paragraph response that basically said: we didn’t mean harm, we want to make beer people like, God bless America.


None of what he said is objectionable, of course, but I would like to see somebody big get fired

The marketing head for Budweiser is now on “administrative leave. “That means they’re giving her an opportunity to resign.


And that’s fine with me, that’s what needs to happen to make this right. I don’t require any further groveling from AB, just the stupid woman gone.

LDAHL
4-22-23, 1:59pm
The marketing head for Budweiser is now on “administrative leave. “That means they’re giving her an opportunity to resign.


And that’s fine with me, that’s what needs to happen to make this right. I don’t require any further groveling from AB, just the stupid woman.

Apparently, she “circumvented the usual approval process”, which I find easy to believe. She seems to have almost comically misread her market, feeling it was too “fratty” and “out of touch”.

Apart from the stock price hit, AB will now need to deal with all the jokes along the “bilgewater identifying as beer” lines.

Tybee
4-22-23, 2:32pm
IL, did you see this article in Slate? I'm interested in your reaction to it:
Youth gender-care bans: What it’s like to parent a trans teen in Texas. (slate.com) (https://slate.com/technology/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-texas-teen-trans-boy.html)

iris lilies
4-24-23, 2:35am
IL, did you see this article in Slate? I'm interested in your reaction to it:
Youth gender-care bans: What it’s like to parent a trans teen in Texas. (slate.com) (https://slate.com/technology/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-texas-teen-trans-boy.html)

Cross sex hormones at age 12 and a complete masectomy just a couple years later is pretty radical. Apparently this child had therapy, I just hope it was an appropriate kind. There’s no mention of any other comorbidities in Reese’s mental health. I will bet they are there.

let’s interview Reese 15 years from now and see how he feels about this early transition.

bae
4-24-23, 3:20am
Fnord

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-conservative-campaign.html

iris lilies
4-24-23, 9:12am
Fnord

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-conservative-campaign.html

Ah yes, dissing the messenger, a time honored ( but weak) expository method. You have yet to respond to any point in the realm of medicalized treatment of minors.

I don’t read or listen to the “conservative religious right” sources on this topic, well, not exclusively anyway. Open your eyes and understand who is breaking news on this issue. Bari Weiss, JK Rowling, several hard left 2nd wave feminists, Bill Maher, trans folks Buck Angel and Blair White, trans clinic worker Jamie Reed—none of these are “conservative” or “religious right.”

early morning
4-24-23, 9:31am
While it's true that we don't have data from people who transitioned early (because there is almost none yet??) we DO have potential data from older trans persons who did not have the opportunity to transition when they were young, and KNEW they were not the gender their bodies indicated. Who is talking to them? Who is gathering data that indicates the harm they have endured by not being able to transition until they are much older adults, if at all? And there are probably going to be some people who transition, and discover that it was not the solution to their particular problems. But we are supposed to be supporters of individual rights, and every individual should have the right to make choices on his/her/their own regarding their own bodies. I agree that surgery should be very rarely, very carefully considered option for anyone under 21, with plenty of therapy and discussion and support. But criminalizing young trans people, their families, and any medical persons who wish to support them, is unconscionable.

iris lilies
4-24-23, 9:45am
IL, did you see this article in Slate? I'm interested in your reaction to it:
Youth gender-care bans: What it’s like to parent a trans teen in Texas. (slate.com) (https://slate.com/technology/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-texas-teen-trans-boy.html)

they are just as many testimonials from parents on “the other side. “


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1oh4dsbsb4&t=8s&pp=ygUdQ2FsaWZvcm5pYSBtb3RoZXIgdHJhbnMgY2hpbGQ%3D

I heard a great podcast, and now I can’t find a link, from a gay mom, who felt extreme pressure from her LGBT community to affirm the trans status of her quite young children. She told about how she and her partner gradually came to realize how insidious was the trans affirmation model in their kids’ lives and the harm it was doing.

iris lilies
4-24-23, 9:46am
While it's true that we don't have data from people who transitioned early (because there is almost none yet??) we DO have potential data from older trans persons who did not have the opportunity to transition when they were young, and KNEW they were not the gender their bodies indicated. Who is talking to them? Who is gathering data that indicates the harm they have endured by not being able to transition until they are much older adults, if at all? And there are probably going to be some people who transition, and discover that it was not the solution to their particular problems. But we are supposed to be supporters of individual rights, and every individual should have the right to make choices on his/her/their own regarding their own bodies. I agree that surgery should be very rarely, very carefully considered option for anyone under 21, with plenty of therapy and discussion and support. But criminalizing young trans people, their families, and any medical persons who wish to support them, is unconscionable.

Legislating any of this is dumb. I’ve said that several times now. I’ve also said let adults of legal age do as they wish. If trans minors have thoughtful, involved parents, really good therapist who don’t automatically adopt a hard affirmative care model, and really good ongoing therapy, then that’s the real deal.

iris lilies
4-24-23, 10:00am
While it's true that we don't have data from people who transitioned early (because there is almost none yet??) we DO have potential data from older trans persons who did not have the opportunity to transition when they were young, and KNEW they were not the gender their bodies indicated. Who is talking to them? Who is gathering data that indicates the harm they have endured by not being able to transition until they are much older adults, if at all? And there are probably going to be some people who transition, and discover that it was not the solution to their particular problems. But we are supposed to be supporters of individual rights, and every individual should have the right to make choices on his/her/their own regarding their own bodies. I agree that surgery should be very rarely, very carefully considered option for anyone under 21, with plenty of therapy and discussion and support. But criminalizing young trans people, their families, and any medical persons who wish to support them, is unconscionable.

there is lots of anecdotal information and even an attempt to gather statistics from the detrans community. Check it out in the “ Detrans” reddit community for first hand stories of young people who transitioned and regret it.

But life isn’t that black-and-white, and some of these people go in and out of transition, others are sloooooowly figuring out how to live with their natal body and any changes that came about in medicalized treatment. Still others are fully transitioned but are now seriously questioning if that is the right path for them.

I found it interesting that one person on the Detrans subreddit mentioned keeping all parts of their natal body, but taking cross sex hormones at a low level because it seems to relieve their body dysmorphia.

there are plenty of reports of cross sex hormones creating a feeling of euphoria.

All of these detransitioners have tales of rejection and hatred from the trans community. These personal stories make it clear to me there are many shades of bigoted “transphobia. “

LDAHL
4-24-23, 10:05am
Legislating any of this is dumb. I’ve said that several times now. I’ve also said let adults of legal age do as they wish. If trans minors have thoughtful, involved parents, really good therapist who don’t automatically adopt a hard affirmative care model, and really good ongoing therapy, then that’s the real deal.

We are trying to do that, lots of therapy, minimal irreversible steps prior to adulthood, and a constant effort to learn more. It can be very difficult in our current environment of politicized medicine and medicalized politics. Honestly, it’s hard to know where to turn since the usual idiots of all political stripes have decided to make this a new front in their imbecilic culture wars.

I wish all the would-be saviors would just shut up.

iris lilies
4-24-23, 11:04am
We are trying to do that, lots of therapy, minimal irreversible steps prior to adulthood, and a constant effort to learn more. It can be very difficult in our current environment of politicized medicine and medicalized politics. Honestly, it’s hard to know where to turn since the usual idiots of all political stripes have decided to make this a new front in their imbecilic culture wars.

I wish all the would-be saviors would just shut up.
That is good, it sounds like a rational and balanced approach. I wish you well.

Tybee
4-24-23, 11:57am
My heart goes out to your family, LDAHL. It's awful when people make a cause celebre out of one's private complicated situations. I've had that happen a couple of times with things like divorce and end of life issues, and honestly, I think people should leave each other alone as much as possible.

catherine
4-24-23, 12:22pm
We are trying to do that, lots of therapy, minimal irreversible steps prior to adulthood, and a constant effort to learn more.

That is the best a parent can do. With such loving parents, I'm sure your child will do well. My son bucked the norm, and we had to take a risk with life decisions on his behalf and it worked out well. It reminds me that everyone has unique needs and there is no one size fits all.

JaneV2.0
4-24-23, 1:50pm
...
All of these detransitioners have tales of rejection and hatred from the trans community. These personal stories make it clear to me there are many shades of bigoted “transphobia. “

Much like ex-vegans report.

bae
4-24-23, 11:00pm
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/24/opinions/anti-trans-rhetoric-strategy-turban/index.html

rosarugosa
4-25-23, 6:00am
Reason 1,000,001 why I'm glad to not be a parent.

iris lilies
4-25-23, 7:32am
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/24/opinions/anti-trans-rhetoric-strategy-turban/index.html
It is a lazy analogy.

LDAHL
4-25-23, 8:13am
Reason 1,000,001 why I'm glad to not be a parent.

It’s terrifying and heartbreaking and exhausting, and the greatest experience of my life.

JaneV2.0
4-25-23, 12:09pm
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/24/opinions/anti-trans-rhetoric-strategy-turban/index.html

Depressing.

JaneV2.0
4-25-23, 8:15pm
We are trying to do that, lots of therapy, minimal irreversible steps prior to adulthood, and a constant effort to learn more. It can be very difficult in our current environment of politicized medicine and medicalized politics. Honestly, it’s hard to know where to turn since the usual idiots of all political stripes have decided to make this a new front in their imbecilic culture wars.

I wish all the would-be saviors would just shut up.

I think you've chosen a reasonable path through this particular mine field, and I hope your child emerges with minimal damage.

ApatheticNoMore
4-25-23, 11:17pm
Although the right is mobilizing against trans stuff now, I think the issue was originally pushed into being such an issue by the left (these are broad generalizations so obviously not all of the left was focused on that). Although back then the arguments were usually about TERF issues, trans women in women's sports, trans women in women's only spaces etc.. I guess the bathroom debate goes back awhile (and I really don't care what bathroom a person uses). And it's always been odd it's become such a central issue because it's always been a very tiny percentage of the population.

I'm sympathetic to some of the TERF stuff (I laugh when bio cis men weigh in, what do they know about women). But I'm also totally on board with adults should be left alone to do whatever they want with their bodies and left alone for it. If they regret choices made in adulthood that is just the human condition (does anyone actually make good choices, whatever that is for them, when they are young anyway? But if they are at the age of majority, oh well, they can make adult choices.). The minors stuff is just hard. I don't think we let minors have complete self-determination on what to do with their bodies anyway, what if a 12 year old girl wanted her tubes tied? Probably be hard to find a doctor who would do it, no matter how much she insists she never ever wants to have kids (and one can be as certain about that as their gender).

catherine
4-26-23, 9:03am
Although the right is mobilizing against trans stuff now, I think the issue was originally pushed into being such an issue by the left (these are broad generalizations so obviously not all of the left was focused on that). Although back then the arguments were usually about TERF issues, trans women in women's sports, trans women in women's only spaces etc.. I guess the bathroom debate goes back awhile (and I really don't care what bathroom a person uses). And it's always been odd it's become such a central issue because it's always been a very tiny percentage of the population.

I'm sympathetic to some of the TERF stuff (I laugh when bio cis men weigh in, what do they know about women). But I'm also totally on board with adults should be left alone to do whatever they want with their bodies and left alone for it. If they regret choices made in adulthood that is just the human condition (does anyone actually make good choices, whatever that is for them, when they are young anyway? But if they are at the age of majority, oh well, they can make adult choices.). The minors stuff is just hard. I don't think we let minors have complete self-determination on what to do with their bodies anyway, what if a 12 year old girl wanted her tubes tied? Probably be hard to find a doctor who would do it, no matter how much she insists she never ever wants to have kids (and one can be as certain about that as their gender).

Good points, ANM. Makes me think about the role and the meaning of personal identity. If you identify as one gender or another, what does that mean to you? And I'm talking about everyone, cis or LGBTQ+. What does it mean to identify as a woman or a man or neither (I think the non-binaries have addressed that question in a way by choosing 'neither/both'). Why is the compulsion to identify with a gender so strong in many people. Is it less strong in others? I'm trying to imagine if a magical person came to me in the middle of the night and turned me into a male, what would that mean to me? How would my life change?

I'm sure these questions are explored in depth through therapy when people are considering transitioning, but I wonder how often we consider the impact the genetic lottery has had in our own lives.

iris lilies
4-26-23, 9:48am
Good points, ANM. Makes me think about the role and the meaning of personal identity. If you identify as one gender or another, what does that mean to you? And I'm talking about everyone, cis or LGBTQ+. What does it mean to identify as a woman or a man or neither (I think the non-binaries have addressed that question in a way by choosing 'neither/both'). Why is the compulsion to identify with a gender so strong in many people. Is it less strong in others? I'm trying to imagine if a magical person came to me in the middle of the night and turned me into a male, what would that mean to me? How would my life change?

I'm sure these questions are explored in depth through therapy when people are considering transitioning, but I wonder how often we consider the impact the genetic lottery has had in our own lives.

All too often these questions are NOT explored in depth by therapists adopting the affirmation model of treatment. That is part of the problem.

But yes, it is certainly fascinating to see how some people cling strongly to gender roles as life identifiers on either political “side” of the issue. I was cheered recently to read that more teenagers are identifying as non-binary than as transgender. To me that good because perhaps the tide is turning, and kids just simply recognize gender roles are not black and white. There can be fluidity of gender. Humans are on a spectrum and in each person sexual preference and gender identity are not necessarily hardwired. And then, in that individual, there is fluidity depending on physiological changes and psychological and social situations.

It has long been theorized that in utero hormones affect outcomes of sexual preference and gender identification. I wonder if men who were considered effeminate two generations ago, but who were not gay because they liked women, would now change gender? I don’t know. Would they be pushed into it by societal expectations of today? Yeah, maybe.

Transgender identification is growing exponentially. Is it social contagion? I think, yes. Is it societal permission to finally come out of the closet and identify as your true self? I think yes to this, too. It’s not one thing exclusively. Middle-age men have a different … pathology …going on than teenage girls, for instance. It is known that a high percentage of kids transitioning also have mental health comorbidities (Autism, BiPolar, etc.) My personal observation shows that to be true for middle aged men as well, based on the trans women I know personally.

That estimate of trans population as 1% is now out the window. Looks to be 5% to 10%, and growing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/nearly-1-10-teens-identify-gender-diverse-pittsburgh-study-rcna993

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/nearly-1-10-teens-identify-gender-diverse-pittsburgh-study-rcna993

1 quote sticks in my mind from a woman in the United Kingdom who visits various schools for her work. She said 15 years ago, the girls with psychological disorders had anorexia. Now they are trans. That tells you something about what’s going on with girlhood, a difficult time.

LDAHL
4-26-23, 10:36am
I think you've chosen a reasonable path through this particular mine field, and I hope your child emerges with minimal damage.

“Minefield” is a very apt term. The professionals involved all seem to be walking such a tightrope that they’re terrified of offering opinions. And there is no shortage of nonsense being promulgated by people with agendas that have little to do with this complex phenomenon.

JaneV2.0
4-26-23, 3:30pm
This seems to be the very definition of "interesting times." I'm glad I'm just an observer at this point.

bae
4-26-23, 3:35pm
Fetuses with one of the intersex variations I possess are aborted if detected prenatally 50%+ of the time in our enlightened times, even though it is basically harmless and offers some advantages. And it is present, and likely undetected, in 1/1000 live male births in the USA.

JaneV2.0
4-26-23, 3:37pm
I'm not much of a defender of gender roles, and the only aspect of the male experience that I really envy is the ability to pee into a jar. My answer would have likely been different a few decades ago, when we had so many fewer options.

JaneV2.0
4-26-23, 3:42pm
Fetuses with one of the intersex variations I possess are aborted if detected prenatally 50%+ of the time in our enlightened times, even though it is basically harmless and offers some advantages. And it is present, and likely undetected, in 1/1000 live male births in the USA.

But they're doing fewer arbitrary sex reassignments these days. I often wonder how intersexuality plays a part in this, as well as agricultural chemicals and plastics.

jp1
4-26-23, 3:54pm
Thinking about transgender becoming much more common today. Iris suggests that it might be ‘contagious’ in some way. Personally I’d say a more like explanation would be similar to the I crease of divorce rates back in the 70’s. At that time women were becoming financially capable of supporting themselves in significantly large numbers than previously, so they had the option of leaving crappy marriages without becoming destitute. Perhaps there are more trans people because becoming openly trans is no longer signing oneself up to be viewed as a wacko freak so more people are willing to take the risk because the reward of living an authentic life outweigh the risk that everyone they encounter will be a trans hater.

bae
4-26-23, 3:57pm
Perhaps there are more trans people because becoming openly trans is no longer signing oneself up to be viewed as a wacko freak so more people are willing to take the risk because the reward of living an authentic life outweigh the risk that everyone they encounter will be a trans hater.

Left-handedness took a similar path:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/09/left-handedness-1.png

catherine
4-26-23, 4:06pm
Thinking about transgender becoming much more common today. Iris suggests that it might be ‘contagious’ in some way. Personally I’d say a more like explanation would be similar to the I crease of divorce rates back in the 70’s. At that time women were becoming financially capable of supporting themselves in significantly large numbers than previously, so they had the option of leaving crappy marriages without becoming destitute. Perhaps there are more trans people because becoming openly trans is no longer signing oneself up to be viewed as a wacko freak so more people are willing to take the risk because the reward of living an authentic life outweigh the risk that everyone they encounter will be a trans hater.

That's a good analogy. My mother's divorce in the 60s definitely consigned her to the minority of the Poor & Single Mothers Excommunicated from Church and Much of Society

JaneV2.0
4-26-23, 4:21pm
Personal freedom can be contagious.

bae
4-26-23, 4:34pm
That's a good analogy. My mother's divorce in the 60s definitely consigned her to the minority of the Poor & Single Mothers Excommunicated from Church and Much of Society

When my mother was getting divorced, she had difficulty obtaining bank accounts, credit cards, and a mortgage without a male sponsor.

The Equal Credit Opportunity Act was only passed in 1974.

bae
4-26-23, 5:36pm
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/montana-transgender-lawmaker-faces-possible-expulsion-hate-filled-testimony

jp1
4-26-23, 5:49pm
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/montana-transgender-lawmaker-faces-possible-expulsion-hate-filled-testimony

When are republicans going to learn that silencing their political opponents is a really really ugly look thatis not popular with a majority of Americans? I guess at least these folks aren’t as overtly racist as the Tennessee jokers. But still.

pinkytoe
4-26-23, 6:29pm
Recently the Texas agriculture commissioner ordered employees to wear clothes “consistent with their biological gender.” I guess that's called a dress code but seems over the top.

iris lilies
4-26-23, 7:43pm
When are republicans going to learn that silencing their political opponents is a really really ugly look thatis not popular with a majority of Americans? I guess at least these folks aren’t as overtly racist as the Tennessee jokers. But still.

They might learn when trans activists stop shouting down what they consider “hate speech” in the public square, a type of discourse familiar to Ms. Zephyr.

And I wish you were right, that Americans DID abhor it. We are seeing far too much of it and I think it’s shocking and I do not see much protest. A bunch of sheeple we are.

For the record, the single quote attributed to her in the Fox article about “blood on your hands “just seems hyperboyle to me and not excessive or worthy of banning. But the article did say there was a lot of disruption from her earlier. She is a brand new legislator, so maybe she thinks shouting silly things during session is somehow her job.

jp1
4-26-23, 7:55pm
It’s weird iris. You were all in favor of shouty behavior when it was the state of the union speech…

jp1
4-26-23, 7:57pm
They might learn when trans activists stop shouting down what they consider “hate speech” in the public square, a type of discourse familiar to Ms. Zephyr.

And I wish you were right, that Americans DID abhor it. We are seeing far too much of it and I think it’s shocking and I do not see much protest. A bunch of sheeple we are.

For the record, the single quote attributed to her in the Fox article about “blood on your hands “just seems hyperboyle to me and not excessive or worthy of banning. But the article did say there was a lot of disruption from her earlier. She is a brand new legislator, so maybe she thinks shouting silly things during session is somehow her job.

She’s not lying. There will be dead trans kids as a result of the various trans hate legislation republicans are shoving down all our throats. . I get it. You don’t care about them. But calling it silly that she is pointing that out is offensive.

jp1
4-26-23, 9:19pm
Cool. Now Missouri has a trans snitch line. Sounds about right for such an awesome state.

https://ago.mo.gov/home/news/2023/03/23/attorney-general-bailey-launches-tip-line-for-reports-of-questionable-gender-transition-interventions

Alan
4-26-23, 9:35pm
Cool. Now Missouri has a trans snitch line. Sounds about right for such an awesome state.

https://ago.mo.gov/home/news/2023/03/23/attorney-general-bailey-launches-tip-line-for-reports-of-questionable-gender-transition-interventions
It sounds like a consumer protection hotline to protect impressionable minors from harm from overzealous practitioners. Is that now called 'snitching'?

jp1
4-26-23, 9:49pm
It sounds like a consumer protection hotline to protect impressionable minors from harm from overzealous practitioners. Is that now called 'snitching'?

Missouri doesn’t trust the parents to look out for the kids so they feel the need to allow anyone to butt in to the care a transgender person is receiving?

Tybee
4-26-23, 10:03pm
It sounds like a consumer protection hotline to protect impressionable minors from harm from overzealous practitioners. Is that now called 'snitching'?

Well, I read the whistleblower's affadavit, and if what even part of what they are saying is accurate, then they were right to call for an investigation of this program.

iris lilies
4-26-23, 11:00pm
It’s weird iris. You were all in favor of shouty behavior when it was the state of the union speech…
Excessive, over use of shouty behavior interferes with the business of legislating.

although, as I think about it, I am as you know, quite fond of no legislation, so maybe we all just need to go down to our local statehouse and shout and shout to keep them from doing any “work. “

iris lilies
4-26-23, 11:04pm
Cool. Now Missouri has a trans snitch line. Sounds about right for such an awesome state.

https://ago.mo.gov/home/news/2023/03/23/attorney-general-bailey-launches-tip-line-for-reports-of-questionable-gender-transition-interventions

Our cities’ murder rate is tops, beaten only by its piss poor prosecution rate. Ah, if only ALL of Missouri could be governed like the Democratic Party governs St. Louis and KC.

iris lilies
4-26-23, 11:32pm
She’s not lying. There will be dead trans kids as a result of the various trans hate legislation republicans are shoving down all our throats. I get it. You don’t care about them….

yes, you “weaponizing empathy” is a tool in the kit of those who wish to shut down inquiry into legitimate concerns about the affirming care model.

One of the de-trans women on this panel talks about it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LyJGijjI2JU

there is a Day of DeTrans Visibility also now about those who drank the Kool-Aid but who came to regret it. If there’s no social contagion at all working in this arena, I mean 0, why do these young women talk about social pressure to transition? Are they just haters? Transphobes of the worst sort? Some in the trans community treat them in that way. what’s up with that?

jp1
4-27-23, 9:42pm
Our cities’ murder rate is tops, beaten only by its piss poor prosecution rate. Ah, if only ALL of Missouri could be governed like the Democratic Party governs St. Louis and KC.

I wonder why the county in California with the highest murder rate is Kern County (Bakersfield in the southern part of the central valley). Governed by republicans. LA County, San Francisco County and Alameda County (Oakland), all governed by democrats, don't hold a candle to the success rate of violent death compared to Kern County.

iris lilies
4-28-23, 4:30am
Well, I read the whistleblower's affadavit, and if what even part of what they are saying is accurate, then they were right to call for an investigation of this program.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gbuGMbqjsSw&t=2181s&pp=ygUOdHJpZ2dlcm5vbWV0cnk%3D

Jamie Reed, the whistleblower from the transgender clinic in St. Louis did a great interview with the TRIGGERnometry guys of England. She comes off as such a sincere, concerned, and knowledgeable employee that it’s hard to dismiss much of what she says.

At the very end, she references the homophobia problem, that so many trans kids say they don’t want to be gay they would rather be trans, take drugs all their lives, mutilate
their bodies. These kids really don’t know what they’re signing up for.

On an interesting note: a worldwide center of transgender treatment is Tehran. Yes, Tehran. The imams have determined that homosexuality is wrong, but being trans is A-ok. So lots of medicalized conversions are taking place there.

https://www.dw.com/en/iran-how-transgender-people-survive-ultraconservative-rule/a-57480850

back to Jamie Reed – she herself is gay (and is married to a transman) and she worries about the homophobia showing up in adolescent spaces. “Trans away the gay” is taking place, a version of conversion therapy.

JaneV2.0
4-28-23, 10:57am
[URL]...

At the very end, she references the homophobia problem, that so many trans kids say they don’t want to be gay they would rather be trans, take drugs all their lives, mutilate
their bodies. These kids really don’t know what they’re signing up for.


That's chilling to read. I saw somewhere that a majority of potentially trans kids somewhere, given counseling, ended up being gay. Wish I could remember the source.

iris lilies
4-28-23, 9:27pm
That's chilling to read. I saw somewhere that a majority of potentially trans kids somewhere, given counseling, ended up being gay. Wish I could remember the source.

Isn’t it weird that we are ideologically aligned with Tehran on this issue? Don’t be gay, chop off genitals to solve that problem! Creepy.

bae
4-28-23, 9:44pm
It seems to me that gender identity and gender expression exist on different axes than sexual preference (gay/bi/straight/...). If one feels the need to construct a taxonomy.

iris lilies
4-28-23, 9:46pm
It seems to me that gender identity and gender expression exist on different axes than sexual preference (gay/bi/straight/...). If one feels the need to construct a taxonomy.
Yes, that is how I think of it. But the imams, and apparently some trans kids, do not.

bae
4-28-23, 9:52pm
Yes, that is how I think of it. Ut the imams, and apparently, and some trans kids, do not.

Well, the population of the USA is so high, and the standards of education and rigor are so low these days, that it's pretty easy to find a handful of people who believe almost *anything* silly. Our current outrage-bait culture then pushes them to the forefront of the discourse, and we all yammer at each other. Fnord.

iris lilies
4-28-23, 10:07pm
Well, the population of the USA is so high, and the standards of education and rigor are so low these days, that it's pretty easy to find a handful of people who believe almost *anything* silly. Our current outrage-bait culture then pushes them to the forefront of the discourse, and we all yammer at each other. Fnord.
I wouldn’t think it would be that difficult for therapists to suss out some of those homophobic attitudes among their clients.

The affirmation model of treatment doesnt encourage that, tho.

Tybee
4-30-23, 9:29am
In Allen's affidavit, there was no good therapy happening, it was all constructed around coercion. Why these families were being coerced is what I wonder.

iris lilies
7-11-23, 9:13pm
The CEO of Anheuser - Busch issued a multi paragraph response that basically said: we didn’t mean harm, we want to make beer people like, God bless America.

None of what he said is objectionable, of course, but I would like to see somebody big get fired

today, with all the news about the suspected Tylenol tampering murderer, I think about how Johnson and Johnson handled that very very bad situation. I think about how that situation and J and J’s response is held up as a good example of business communication in a crises. I think about how Anheuser-Busch STILL refuses to take responsibility for Alissa Heinerschein’s sneering dismissal of Bud Light drinkers. I think about how Anheuser-Busch has had so many missteps since the April event where they partnered with Dylan Mulvany. That in itself is a fairly small thing. It blew up because they let it blow up. It blew up because they hired marketing Director, who wanted to promote only herself with lies and word salad. That little interview with her is all over the Internet, again and again, analyzed and rebutted.

“…What J&J executives have done is communicate the message that the company is candid, contrite and compassionate, committed to solving the murders and protecting the public…”

Why Anheuser-Busch cannot take responsibility for their marketing executive’s words is beyond me. At this point, I suppose it’s too late.

LDAHL
7-12-23, 2:14pm
today, with all the news about the suspected Tylenol tampering murderer, I think about how Johnson and Johnson handled that very very bad situation. I think about how that situation and J and J’s response is held up as a good example of business communication in a crises. I think about how Anheuser-Busch STILL refuses to take responsibility for Alissa Heinerschein’s sneering dismissal of Bud Light drinkers. I think about how Anheuser-Busch has had so many missteps since the April event where they partnered with Dylan Mulvany. That in itself is a fairly small thing. It blew up because they let it blow up. It blew up because they hired marketing Director, who wanted to promote only herself with lies and word salad. That little interview with her is all over the Internet, again and again, analyzed and rebutted.

“…What J&J executives have done is communicate the message that the company is candid, contrite and compassionate, committed to solving the murders and protecting the public…”

Why Anheuser-Busch cannot take responsibility for their marketing executive’s words is beyond me. At this point, I suppose it’s too late.

I see Bud Lite has dropped to 14th place.

bae
7-12-23, 3:34pm
And Anchor Steam went out of business today.

iris lilies
7-12-23, 4:50pm
And Anchor Steam went out of business today.
The Bud Light news is a big deal in my area where “the Brewery” looms large over the historic neighborhoods of St. Louis. How goes Anheuser-Busch so goes STL, especially the little pubs and restaurants that serve AB workers in that area. Let’s not forget all the people I know who retired with AB stock a major part of their portfolio.

Gussie Busch is turning over in his grave.

jp1
7-12-23, 6:20pm
And Anchor Steam went out of business today.

I’m seriously saddened about that. Will be going to the tap room one last time next week.

bae
7-12-23, 6:22pm
I’m seriously saddened about that. Will be going to the tap room one last time next week.

I used to love visiting the brewery in SF.

Rogar
7-12-23, 6:37pm
The news had a photo of a 30 pack of bud light on sale for 8 something with the comment that it was now cheaper than water. I'd have never guessed it could become such an issue. Maybe some photoshop expert should make a photo of DeSantis drinking a bud light to spread around on social media. The top selling beer brand now that bud light has been dethroned is Modelo Especial, which is a Mexican so called lager.

That's too bad about Anchor Steam. They made good quality beer, contrary to bud light.

jp1
7-12-23, 8:54pm
That's too bad about Anchor Steam. They made good quality beer, contrary to bud light.

Indeed. There are probably 4,352 different beers available in the US and approximately 98% of them are better than Bud Light. The few that aren't are stuff like the ironically named Milwaukee's Best which was one of my friend group's staples during college. Thankfully I have better taste, and the bank account to be able to afford better now. But Milwaukee's Best was perfectly fine for my fraternity's 1,000 beer month that we held every April.

iris lilies
7-18-23, 5:22pm
https://theconversation.com/transgender-men-and-nonbinary-people-are-asked-to-stop-testosterone-therapy-during-pregnancy-but-the-evidence-for-this-guidance-is-still-murky-187672

I ran across this article today that is the layman version of an academic study. Today I learned that “normal “outcomes of pregnancy should not be the goal of many birthing persons. Who knew!

In a nutshell these articles talk about the role of testosterone in trans men who are pregnant. The medical community (which we should never forget is a rigid patriarchal society) doesn’t have a whole lot of data about large amounts of testosterone during pregnancy and ‘chest’ feeding, but the article did mention all of these maladies as suspected, linked, or known for the fetus:

“…
exposure in the womb focuses on pregnant people with polycystic ovary syndrome (https://www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-polycystic-ovarian-syndrome-pcos-1959930) who have testosterone levels that generally fall between those for cisgender women and men (https://doi.org/10.1210/jc.2010-1123). These studies center on the likelihood of the baby later developing intersex conditions (https://doi.org/10.1210/en.2016-1801), or having biological traits that do not fit binary definitions of male or female characteristics; later self-identification as lesbian (https://doi.org/10.1093/humupd/dmi013) or trans (https://doi.org/10.1093/humrep/del474); metabolic and cardiovascular dysfunction (https://doi.org/10.1093/humrep/deab112), such as obesity; and neuropsychiatric disorders (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41398-021-01699-8), such as autism and attention-deficit disorder. Most of these concerns have involved children categorized as female at birth…”

leaving aside the idea of purposely bringing into the world intersex and non-binary children (because that might be a noble goal) it seems to me that purposely bringing children with metabolic and cardiovascular dysfunction and psychotic disorders into the world is just wrong.

I’m sure no one here will be interested in the 43 page academic work, but here it is in case you are:

https://eprints.gla.ac.uk/300608/1/300608.pdf

published in SSM -Qualitative Research and Health. The lead authors are sociologists, they are not physicians. And they are heavily immersed in the diversity, equity and inclusion world and academia.

Teacher Terry
7-19-23, 11:07am
It’s horrible to risk having a baby with lifelong problems when it could be prevented. The term birthing person is also truly ridiculous.

LDAHL
7-19-23, 11:54am
https://theconversation.com/transgender-men-and-nonbinary-people-are-asked-to-stop-testosterone-therapy-during-pregnancy-but-the-evidence-for-this-guidance-is-still-murky-187672

I ran across this article today that is the layman version of an academic study. Today I learned that “normal “outcomes of pregnancy should not be the goal of many birthing persons. Who knew!

In a nutshell these articles talk about the role of testosterone in trans men who are pregnant. The medical community (which we should never forget is a rigid patriarchal society) doesn’t have a whole lot of data about large amounts of testosterone during pregnancy and ‘chest’ feeding, but the article did mention all of these maladies as suspected, linked, or known for the fetus:

“…
exposure in the womb focuses on pregnant people with polycystic ovary syndrome (https://www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-polycystic-ovarian-syndrome-pcos-1959930) who have testosterone levels that generally fall between those for cisgender women and men (https://doi.org/10.1210/jc.2010-1123). These studies center on the likelihood of the baby later developing intersex conditions (https://doi.org/10.1210/en.2016-1801), or having biological traits that do not fit binary definitions of male or female characteristics; later self-identification as lesbian (https://doi.org/10.1093/humupd/dmi013) or trans (https://doi.org/10.1093/humrep/del474); metabolic and cardiovascular dysfunction (https://doi.org/10.1093/humrep/deab112), such as obesity; and neuropsychiatric disorders (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41398-021-01699-8), such as autism and attention-deficit disorder. Most of these concerns have involved children categorized as female at birth…”

leaving aside the idea of purposely bringing into the world intersex and non-binary children (because that might be a noble goal) it seems to me that purposely bringing children with metabolic and cardiovascular dysfunction and psychotic disorders into the world is just wrong.

I’m sure no one here will be interested in the 43 page academic work, but here it is in case you are:

https://eprints.gla.ac.uk/300608/1/300608.pdf

published in SSM -Qualitative Research and Health. The lead authors are sociologists, they are not physicians. And they are heavily immersed in the diversity, equity and inclusion world and academia.




Imagine being the parent of a trans child and trying to get reasonably objective advice in this environment.

catherine
7-19-23, 11:58am
Indeed. There are probably 4,352 different beers available in the US and approximately 98% of them are better than Bud Light. The few that aren't are stuff like the ironically named Milwaukee's Best which was one of my friend group's staples during college. Thankfully I have better taste, and the bank account to be able to afford better now. But Milwaukee's Best was perfectly fine for my fraternity's 1,000 beer month that we held every April.

Vermont is the #1 state for beer lovers. Burlington alone has very notable top-rated breweries, like Fiddlehead, Lawson's, The Alchemist. In the Islands alone--a rural spot with very, very limited eating out options, we have two craft breweries--one just opened a new eating/tasting spot, and the other is a woman-owned business that is expanding all the time--they recently took over the lease in a restaurant in one of the Islands. So all y'all are welcome to come visit Vermont if you really want good beer--and much better beer than Bud Light!!

JaneV2.0
7-19-23, 6:59pm
I see that an acquaintance of mine, who used to be a woman married to a man, is now a man married to a woman. The woman in question used to be the man she was married to before he transitioned. They have two young children, who might be confused. I know I am...

bae
7-19-23, 7:07pm
... leaving aside the idea of purposely bringing into the world intersex and non-binary children ...



I'm glad my parents didn't abort me, as was commonly done at the time for people with my particular intersex configuration. I hear in the current progressive era, only ~30% of us are terminated before birth. Progress, I suppose...

bae
7-19-23, 7:13pm
However, I've missed the past several weeks of outrage-farming. Is the new story "trans people will mistreat their unborn babies"? What are the proposed remedies?

How many babies is this actually happening to, in America, each year?

How does that compare to poor prenatal nutrition, prenatal stress, prenatal drug/alcohol use, etc. etc.?

Which is a major public policy issue, and which is, well, you know...?

Alan
7-19-23, 7:34pm
I'm glad my parents didn't abort me, as was commonly done at the time for people with my particular intersex configuration. I hear in the current progressive era, only ~30% of us are terminated before birth. Progress, I suppose...
I believe you were born with Jacobs Syndrome weren't you? Wasn't that just discovered in the 60's?

My grandson is named Jacob but was born with a similar, but opposite condition, Klinefelter's Syndrome. No one suggested aborting him but the medical establishment did suggest his younger brother be, some sort of a guilt by association thing.

bae
7-19-23, 7:41pm
I believe you were born with Jacobs Syndrome weren't you? Wasn't that just discovered in the 60's?


Early 60s. Resulted in a "they will be serial killers!" panic(*).

Medical literature, such as there was, contained all sorts of hand-wringing about "what should we do?"

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/1/6177/1519.full.pdf

(*) to be fair, I have rarely encountered a houseplant I did not kill.

iris lilies
7-19-23, 7:51pm
I'm glad my parents didn't abort me, as was commonly done at the time for people with my particular intersex configuration. I hear in the current progressive era, only ~30% of us are terminated before birth. Progress, I suppose...
Yes, I thought of that. The extent of damage to babies in utero for SOME of these conditions is hard to predict because the effect differs with each. So some kids will be born with a bit of the problem others will be born with a LOT of the problem.

It’s not a risk I would take in this case. Nor would I drink alcohol during pregnancy, even though an occasional beer at specific times in the pregnancy would likely be safe.

I do think it is especially cruel that it is female babies born with mutilated genitalia/reproductive parts when excessive testosterone in utero damages physical development. It doesn’t have the same effect on male fetuses.

One COULD draw parallels to yet more trans ideology damaging women, that is, if one wished to promote that narrative. I suppose you would consider that reaching. And yet so much of the trans ideology defies common sense and is pure bullshit.

JaneV2.0
7-19-23, 7:53pm
Early 60s. Resulted in a "they will be serial killers!" panic(*).

Medical literature, such as there was, contained all sorts of hand-wringing about "what should we do?"

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/1/6177/1519.full.pdf

(*) to be fair, I have rarely encountered a houseplant I did not kill.

Another tempest in a teapot. We should really learn to be less quick to react, and more thoughtful in such matters.

And why do some people insist there are only two sexes, when clearly there are all kinds of variations on a theme.

JaneV2.0
7-19-23, 7:57pm
It would be interesting to see some quantification of "more trans ideology damaging women," as I'm really not aware of any.

iris lilies
7-19-23, 8:04pm
It would be interesting to see some quantification of "more trans ideology damaging women," as I'm really not aware of any.
Go look at the writings and speeches of the old Dykes and 2nd wave feminists in the UK.

Interestingly, trans activists do not consider Feminists to be anyone who will not accept natal males as women. That is erasure, a rather large damage to feminist women. Define them out of existance.

JaneV2.0
7-19-23, 9:10pm
Go look at the writings and speeches of the old Dykes and 2nd wave feminists in the UK.

Interestingly, trans activists do not consider Feminists to be anyone who will not accept natal males as women. That is erasure, a rather large damage to feminist women. Define them out of existance.

Yeah--I'm clearly a piss-poor feminist, as I'm not caught up in TERF wars or any other tendentious ideologies.

bae
7-19-23, 9:12pm
I think we're up to the 4th-Wave of Feminism as of a year or so ago, I'm a bit behind in my reading though this year, so things may have moved on.

As to who is being "defined out of existence", well....Fnord.

jp1
7-19-23, 11:46pm
I wonder if it would be considered erasure if someone who self-identified as an LGBTQ ally espoused a "love the sinner, hate the sin" attitude towards LGBTQ people was told that they weren't in fact an LGBTQ ally?

bae
7-20-23, 12:14am
I think "erasure" looks more like this...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cms.ipressroom.com/173/files/20198/5d7842c92cfac209ff23a340_Trans-Suicide-Line-Graph/Trans-Suicide-Line-Graph_8d2ef16b-6f24-4d77-b9bd-a0d71d2397bc-prv.jpg

jp1
7-20-23, 12:58am
I think "erasure" looks more like this...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cms.ipressroom.com/173/files/20198/5d7842c92cfac209ff23a340_Trans-Suicide-Line-Graph/Trans-Suicide-Line-Graph_8d2ef16b-6f24-4d77-b9bd-a0d71d2397bc-prv.jpg

Yes. I love when cis het folks start talking about erasure/cancellation. I wonder if they even realize what they sound like to those of us that actual face erasure or cancellation. Maybe I"m a negative nelly but I assume they don't and that they don't particularly care. If they'd like to explain how I'm wrong I'd be happy to listen.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 2:02am
Yes. I love when cis het folks start talking about erasure/cancellation. I wonder if they even realize what they sound like to those of us that actual face erasure or cancellation. Maybe I"m a negative nelly but I assume they don't and that they don't particularly care. If they'd like to explain how I'm wrong I'd be happy to listen.
Well you know that saying “Women are the nixxers of the world” so I think women DO know quite a bit about erasure. But I won’t play the victim Olympics because that is not very interesting to me, I only mentioned it because
it’s a valid theory, transwomen invading and taking over women’s spaces.

See, I think of it as a theory, one to explore.

And as far as the 2nd wave of feminism, I remember probably the first time I ran into this UK contingent in Germaine Greer, who is a bona fide 2nd wave feminist on YouTube, expanding on themes related to this.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 2:06am
I think "erasure" looks more like this...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cms.ipressroom.com/173/files/20198/5d7842c92cfac209ff23a340_Trans-Suicide-Line-Graph/Trans-Suicide-Line-Graph_8d2ef16b-6f24-4d77-b9bd-a0d71d2397bc-prv.jpg

if this is supposed to be a real chart of data, there’s no citation of where it came from. Which makes me think Is it some sort of parody? I don’t understand.

Tybee
7-20-23, 5:54am
And why do some people insist there are only two sexes, when clearly there are all kinds of variations on a theme.

That's definitely where I land.

jp1
7-20-23, 7:20am
What on earth is a ‘nixxer of the world’? Even the googles was stumped by that one.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 7:31am
What on earth is a ‘nixxer of the world’? Even the googles was stumped by that one.

The “N” word. This software it will not let me type that word.

edited to add:

this is a song by John Lennon and Yoko Ono.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 11:59am
That's definitely where I land.

“The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual.”


From the Intersex Society of North America
————————————————————————————————————————————-

iris says:
The Two Sex biological idea is fact. We can think about it in different ways but the world of mammalian biology is binary. If you want to look at all the anomalies or
combination of anomalies as unique “sexes “ you are free to do that, it’s just not a point of you that I find useful in pure biology.

There is a young biologist whose name escapes me, who summarized his idea nicely for me, and I am paraphrasing: while there are many sexual anomalies in individuals, when you look at each one of those individuals you will see their entire physiological system, as a whole, is aligned with one of two sexes. It is very very rare to find humans who do not fit into the binary sexual system.

In this he takes into account DNA, primary sexual characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, etc.

To my mind focusing on one anomaly, such as testes on a human who, otherwise in every way, has the physical characteristics of a female and calling that person another “sex” is silly.

But in the end, the good thing about this whole discussion is that we can discuss it. Having different opinions about sex and gender and how those work within our society is a good thing. And it all depends on what point of view you adopt in defining, sex, gender, etc. if we are talking about peer biology that shapes to cover the conversation in a different way, then if we were talking about biology within psychological and sociological systems.

Open expression of these ideas is healthy. Breaking away from the established narrative of any ideologues is not hate speech.

bae
7-20-23, 12:20pm
Wows, thanks for explaining intersex and identity to me.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 12:27pm
Wows, thanks for explaining intersex and identity to me.

Yep, I do get to have an opinion on issues in society.

Tybee
7-20-23, 12:54pm
“The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual.”


From the Intersex Society of North America
————————————————————————————————————————————-

The Two Sex biological idea is fact. We can think about it in different ways but the world of mammalian biology is binary. If you want to look at all the anomalies or
combination of anomalies as unique “sexes “ you are free to do that, it’s just not a point of you that I find useful in pure biology.

There is a young biologist who’s name escapes me, who summarized his idea nicely for me, and I am paraphrasing: while there are many sexual anomalies in individuals, when you look at each one of those individuals you will see their entire physiological system, as a whole, is aligned with one of two sexes. It is very very rare to find humans who do not fit into the binary sexual system.

In this he takes into account DNA, primary sexual characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, etc.

To my mind focusing on one anomaly, such as testes on a human who, otherwise in every way, has the physical characteristics of a female and calling that person another “sex” is silly.

But in the end, the good thing about this whole discussion is that we can discuss it. Having different opinions about sex and gender and how those work within our society is a good thing. And it all depends on what point of view you adopt in defining, sex, gender, etc. if we are talking about peer biology that shapes to cover the conversation in a different way, then if we were talking about biology within psychological and sociological systems.

Open expression of these ideas is healthy. Breaking away from the established narrative of any ideologues is not hate speech.

I guess I don't understand why what the Intersex Society of North America claims about human biology is relevant to my affirmation of Jane's view of sexual identity. Why should these ungrammatical bozos (who's??) be able to put everyone in the boxes they choose, of how they construct sexual identity? Or maybe I am missing Jane's point, if so, I beg pardon.

I think individuals are just that, individuals, and their experience of life should not be dictated by someone telling them they are not who they feel they are--that still happens to women every day so I don't get why this organization refutes what I said or Jane said.

bae
7-20-23, 12:59pm
I think individuals are just that, individuals, and their experience of life should not be dictated by someone telling them they are not who they feel they are--that still happens to women every day so I don't get why this organization refutes what I said or Jane said.

It's another type of erasure.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 1:20pm
I guess I don't understand why what the Intersex Society of North America claims about human biology is relevant to my affirmation of Jane's view of sexual identity. Why should these ungrammatical bozos (who's??) be able to put everyone in the boxes they choose, of how they construct sexual identity? Or maybe I am missing Jane's point, if so, I beg pardon.

I think individuals are just that, individuals, and their experience of life should not be dictated by someone telling them they are not who they feel they are--that still happens to women every day so I don't get why this organization refutes what I said or Jane said.

Neither you or Jane use the term “sexual identity” in your posts above. She
used the word “sexes “and it is therefore reasonable of me to respond in a context of biological sex since that is what “sex “means to me.

At the moment I think of your “sexual identity “as gender identity, which is a social construct, but one that also is very tightly aligned with biological sex. Although it doesn’t have to be.


As for the bad grammarian, that is me and I agree that it’s hard to tell in my post what is me speaking and what is the society of intersex, so I will edit it to make it better.

Alan
7-20-23, 1:33pm
Wows, thanks for explaining intersex and identity to me.
I may not be completely up to date on the issue but when I was extensively studying xxy and xyy research 20 or so years ago (and admittedly focusing primarily on xxy), xxy was considered to be intersex while xyy was not. As I recall, xyy syndrome was considered a marker for super masculinity and was only found in males. Has that changed?

bae
7-20-23, 1:46pm
As I recall, xyy syndrome was considered a marker for super masculinity and was only found in males. Has that changed?

Yes. No. Maybe. It depends. Taxonomy is destiny?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5808814

In addition to having 47 chromosomes, I have several other interesting "differences" that have distinct physical manifestations, but I don't know you well enough to show you, and I haven't figured out how to make an Onlyfans site :-)

iris lilies
7-20-23, 2:14pm
Wows, thanks for explaining intersex and identity to me.


I haven’t played the identity politics card as you are doing here because I think it’s a dull type of discourse. *If* we accept only input from certain people that is greatly limiting to our discourse in how the issue affects society as a whole. If I were to play that card with you I would discount most everything you have to say about being a woman despite whatever physical anomalies you have.

But see— I don’t do that because open discourse is important. Shutting down opposing opinions as “hate “talk is not only boring, it truly weakens a discussion.

Alan
7-20-23, 2:19pm
But see— I don’t do that because open discourse is important. Shutting down opposing opinions as “hate “talk is not only boring, it truly weakens a discussion.
Amen Sister! +1

JaneV2.0
7-20-23, 2:21pm
Timely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWQAnomVy3g

Tybee
7-20-23, 2:47pm
iris says:
The Two Sex biological idea is fact. We can think about it in different ways but the world of mammalian biology is binary. If you want to look at all the anomalies or
combination of anomalies as unique “sexes “ you are free to do that, it’s just not a point of you that I find useful in pure biology.


To my mind focusing on one anomaly, such as testes on a human who, otherwise in every way, has the physical characteristics of a female and calling that person another “sex” is silly.



To me this example supports a different conclusion. Looking at evidence right in front of you, what you are seeing with your eyes, and then discounting it and saying, I don't see that, I see only other things, without that feature, because it does not fit into my binary model of what should exist--that seems silly, and like bad science.

ApatheticNoMore
7-20-23, 4:00pm
Yes. I love when cis het folks start talking about erasure/cancellation. I wonder if they even realize what they sound like to those of us that actual face erasure or cancellation. Maybe I"m a negative nelly but I assume they don't and that they don't particularly care. If they'd like to explain how I'm wrong I'd be happy to listen.

you think women don't know about erasure? Well I suppose that's a typical male position, all that male privilege in patriarchy, and can't even SEE IT, that's how it goes isn't it. Who else do you want to lecture, black people?

Why (even) are men?

ApatheticNoMore
7-20-23, 4:08pm
this is a song by John Lennon and Yoko Ono.

I got the reference. John Lennon, of course, and I'm not even a fan of Beatles/Lennon really. But he wasn't wrong there ...

Alan
7-20-23, 4:22pm
Yes. I love when cis het folks start talking about erasure/cancellation. I wonder if they even realize what they sound like to those of us that actual face erasure or cancellation. Maybe I"m a negative nelly but I assume they don't and that they don't particularly care. If they'd like to explain how I'm wrong I'd be happy to listen.
I'd be grateful if you were to explain to us why you're right.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 4:38pm
Timely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWQAnomVy3g


Alicia Weigler is well spoken. I watched this video and came away with these thoughts:


* very early in the video when Alicia is talking about her physical anomalies the Washington post interviewer starts chatting about gender. Two different things guy, although they are certainly related. Towards the end of the video she talks about sex and also gender as being on spectrums so she is recognizing and speaking of the two as separate.

* her physical issue is one of the most common of the “intersex “world, which is why I used it in my example above. She isnt in the minority of the 1% – 2% of the population impossible to define as either male or female. She is female and due to unfortunate surgery even less so now than when she was born.

* I didn’t know that ‘unnecessary’ surgeries on intersex kids are still going on wholesale because so much in the media has opposed those actions in recent years. Well, that is unfortunate.


And as always, I do not support legislative action in this arena because the laws can’t address nuance needed.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 4:49pm
To me this example supports a different conclusion. Looking at evidence right in front of you, what you are seeing with your eyes, and then discounting it and saying, I don't see that, I see only other things, without that feature, because it does not fit into my binary model of what should exist--that seems silly, and like bad science.

I can see that, and maybe the whole thing boils down to:


Does the exception make the rule? Or does the exception not invalidate the overarching rule?


It doesn’t matter in the context of personal identity. If Alicia wants to be considered intersex, I’ll consider her intersex if I have a personal relationship with her but would have a hard time remembering it simply because she so fem presenting. All these hundreds of forms that we fill out that ask for male or female maybe need to have just a box for “other “ to make administration easier.

But when we start changing definitions of words and assigning different meanings, it has impact in society.

The whole bathroom debate always seems silly until you run into certain real life situations. Riley Gaines talks about how her university did not warn women on the swimming team that 6’3” Leah Thomas would be stripping down next to them in the locker room. They were offered counseling if they found that sudden surprise to be offputting. That was handled in a ham-fisted way and seems bullying to me Maybe a more gentle ease into it would’ve been better.

JaneV2.0
7-20-23, 5:11pm
In my perfect world, there would always be one or more unisex bathrooms available. I would have been thrilled to change in one as an adolescent gym student.

iris lilies
7-20-23, 5:23pm
In my perfect world, there would always be one or more unisex bathrooms available. I would have been thrilled to change in one as an adolescent gym student.
We have a new Goodwill store in my area that I love. I absolutely love it. It has at least three single stall bathrooms, maybe four? Can’t remember. They are single stall with a door that closes and locks so they can be for any gender

But the fantasy of how we’d like to see bathrooms constructed is not living in reality.

On this topic: there was a case of a natal male now trans woman with all natal male parts changing in the YMCA locker room for women. Some of the people in the report were outraged when they were in the room with the transwoman.

But when the camera showed the actual physical set up, it showed an enclosed changing cubicle that the trans woman used. It seemed reasonable to me so I wouldn’t be concerned about that, most likely, if I were in that space.

An interesting take on this though is something Kathleen Stock has pointed out, and it is that 20 years ago trans women were expected to make an effort to present as the female sex and them using women’s bathrooms and locker areas might not be of concern. Now that is not the case. Trans women are trans women by simply declaring it so.

Someone who looks like Alan may now use women’s intimate spaces. That will be jarring for many people and I’m not going to consider them hysterical haters because of it.

JaneV2.0
7-20-23, 5:26pm
Eventually, one hopes, we'll work it all out.

Alan
7-20-23, 5:58pm
Someone who looks like Alan may now use women’s intimate spaces.
No I can't, my wife won't let me. But if she ever changes her mind, woohoo! I may let my inner woman come out for a half hour or so at a time. I hear our local YWCA has really nice showers, and those hot Silver Sneakers ladies hang out there.

jp1
7-21-23, 6:12am
Who are all these trans women that don’t bother trying to present as women? Maybe I live a sheltered life, or don’t live in a place that’s progressive enough that someone would feel comfortable doing that, but I’ve never met one. And I would be willing to bet that approximately zero people on this board have either.

iris lilies
7-21-23, 9:41am
Who are all these trans women that don’t bother trying to present as women? Maybe I live a sheltered life, or don’t live in a place that’s progressive enough that someone would feel comfortable doing that, but I’ve never met one. And I would be willing to bet that approximately zero people on this board have either.

The point is that there is zero qualifying event to waltz into to the women’s bathroom, trans or not.

early morning
7-21-23, 10:36am
my adult trans-woman child does not generally present as a woman for a variety of reasons. They use the men's room, and have said it seems prudent to use the bathroom of the sex you "look like".

Tybee
7-21-23, 10:50am
Same thing with my son's best friend from college. I guess that makes two people.

jp1
7-21-23, 9:29pm
The point is that there is zero qualifying event to waltz into to the women’s bathroom, trans or not.

So it’s like the freak out over the nonexistent problem of late term abortions where republicans like you insist the we need to set a number of weeks of gestation that is acceptable for abortions just because we need to rather than because there’s actually a problem that exists. Got it.

iris lilies
7-21-23, 9:38pm
So it’s like the freak out over the nonexistent problem of late term abortions where republicans like you insist the we need to set a number of weeks of gestation that is acceptable for abortions just because we need to rather than because there’s actually a problem that exists. Got it.

I’m not going to talk about abortion issue because I’m tired of talking to you or anyone else about it because you never get into the nuanced issues that could be interesting although you need to understand that the majority of the American public think there should be some gestational limit to abortion. That would include people who vote the same ticket you do.

But yeah, men are in “women’s spaces” including bathrooms – it does happen you don’t have to see it’s a problem because of course you don’t. In my view sometimes it’s a problem, sometimes it’s not. many variations and situations. I have to say I would’ve been shocked and a little uncomfortable to be presented with Lia Thomas’ dingdong in the swimmer’s locker room. That was before Lia got her testicles removed.

bae
7-21-23, 10:13pm
Same thing with my son's best friend from college. I guess that makes two people.

I know many folks who fall into the category claimed not-to-exist. Maybe I get out more?

jp1
7-21-23, 11:58pm
I’m not going to talk about abortion issue because I’m tired of talking to you or anyone else about it because you never get into the nuanced issues that could be interesting although you need to understand that the majority of the American public think there should be some gestational limit to abortion. That would include people who vote the same ticket you do.

But yeah, men are in “women’s spaces” including bathrooms – it does happen you don’t have to see it’s a problem because of course you don’t. In my view sometimes it’s a problem, sometimes it’s not. many variations and situations. I have to say I would’ve been shocked and a little uncomfortable to be presented with Lia Thomas’ dingdong in the swimmer’s locker room. That was before Lia got her testicles removed.

By all means please share with us links about men going in women’s bathrooms. Especially men that are pretending to be women. I’d love to hear about it since as far as I know it isn’t a real thing.

bae
7-22-23, 12:02am
By all means please share with us links about men going in women’s bathrooms. Especially men that are pretending to be women. I’d love to hear about it since as far as I know it isn’t a real thing.

We know what they are saying.

iris lilies
7-22-23, 9:31am
We know what they are saying.
Lia Thomas.. Not a real thing.

alrighty then.

iris lilies
7-22-23, 1:29pm
And not only physical spaces women’s spaces, but non-tangible spaces. I think about how the world of STEM scholarships will be affected by persons who identify as women when they weren’t born that way.

But then, I remember there’s always two sides to an issue so anyone could apply for the scholarships targeted to the marginalized group of transgender people, so I suppose it will all equal out. If the qualification for applied for a transgender scholarship is that you simply identify as transgender, that seems to be an easy standard to meet.

https://www.top10onlinecolleges.org/scholarships-for/transgender-students/

The whole “ I am transgender if I think I am” phenomena was played out in? Australia, when a group of male bodybuilders entered the female weightlifting class to purposely beat out a trans woman weightlifter. They declared themselves trans women for the day.

I suppose if society moves towards “I am what I think I am” in the long run it will be a good thing because chopping off bits of one’s body and making other modifications to artificially align with the gender you imagine you are is a tough medical road for a lifetime.

iris lilies
8-31-23, 11:32am
For today’s thought bubble about gender politics

https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-134/united-states-v-varner/

where the tldr is: case law supports judges not having to use correct speak’s preferred pronouns, or compelling them to be used, in his/her court. It is OK to call a natal man who identifies as a woman a “man” in court and refer to him as “he.”

I can just imagine a rape victim having to testify about her rape experience
by “another woman “when the crime was committed by a man with a penis. That would be an added indignity for the victim, another painful aspect of her experience.

As we watch the rise in violent crimes against persons by “women” we need to keep in mind the transitioning population. Crime stats over the next few years will be interesting.

jp1
9-4-23, 6:34am
I suppose now that republicans have turned ‘fake trans woman’ into a real thing you are probably correct. I’d be curious what the current stats of ‘fake trans woman’ going into a women’s restroom to act maliciously towards women is? My guess is that the number is radically lower than the number of people killed by guns, a topic republicans have ZERO interest in fixing. Not surprising since republicans have a tendency to focus on nonexistent, or very minimally existent, problems because those problems whip their base up into a rabid froth for whatever reason.

iris lilies
9-4-23, 10:15am
I suppose now that republicans have turned ‘fake trans woman’ into a real thing you are probably correct. I’d be curious what the current stats of ‘fake trans woman’ going into a women’s restroom to act maliciously towards women is? My guess is that the number is radically lower than the number of people killed by guns, a topic republicans have ZERO interest in fixing. Not surprising since republicans have a tendency to focus on nonexistent, or very minimally existent, problems because those problems whip their base up into a rabid froth for whatever reason.

Well, in one view, they are all fake women, whether trans or “fake” (as you say) trans. Maybe a distinction without a difference. And now the medical community is talking realistically about surgical implantation of uterus and ovaries. What a brave new world that will be.
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/should-uterus-transplantation-transwomen-and-transmen-be-subsidized/2023-06#:~:text=Success%20in%20uterus%20transplantation %20(UTx,subsidies%20or%20insurance%20coverage%20be nefits.

As for solving “ people killed by guns” please do tell, what is the answer? Didn’t your President just recently sign a bill that he touted as the most comprehensive gun control legislation in a long time? Did that not solve it all?

jp1
9-5-23, 6:44am
Oh there is very much a difference between the fake trans women that republicans have created and real trans women. But whatever. Continue on with your vendetta against trans people and drag queens. Hating others for being different is the only agenda the Republican Party has anymore so you might as well fully embrace it.

frugal-one
9-5-23, 7:13am
Well, in one view, they are all fake women, whether trans or “fake” (as you say) trans. Maybe a distinction without a difference. And now the medical community is talking realistically about surgical implantation of uterus and ovaries. What a brave new world that will be.
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/should-uterus-transplantation-transwomen-and-transmen-be-subsidized/2023-06#:~:text=Success%20in%20uterus%20transplantation %20(UTx,subsidies%20or%20insurance%20coverage%20be nefits.

As for solving “ people killed by guns” please do tell, what is the answer? Didn’t your President just recently sign a bill that he touted as the most comprehensive gun control legislation in a long time? Did that not solve it all?

The gun law put through was as far as the republicans would allow. It was like putting a bandaid on a hemmorrhage! One answer is never to vote republican again!

iris lilies
9-6-23, 11:05pm
Somewhere on this forum we talked about the trans person Artemis who joined a female sorority at the University of Wyoming without an honest vote of the members because the powers that be at that sorority determined Artemis would become a member. Period. They did not Follow their usual process of secret ballot voting.

Artemis entered the sorority and hung around when the girls were going to and from from showers. Artemis was reported to have erections while he sikently watched girls. Artemis was reported to in a creepy way talk to the girls about their body parts. The sorority girls sued their sorority for allowing a non-woman in.

Today a judge dismissed the case saying it wasn’t up to the courts how this private entity, a sorority, defines woman.

I don’t have a real problem with the court’s decision. I *AM* sorry, tho, that Artemis will continue to be present to harass some girls and they were not able to get relief from anyone in a position to help or protect them. Is this a Minority of girls in the sorority? I don’t know.

Is it OK If not all members are at ease with all members?

Are we no longer to Believe all women! ? Until it is inconvenient for trans folks.

I wonder what will happen when freshman girls find their college roommate is a man ideating as female. Would a girl have any grounds to be supported if she was uncomfortable with that, and could she call for that to situation to change? Or, will she be expected to put up with it and shut up?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sorority-rules-transgender-woman-wyoming-chapter-court-interfere-100284035


here is Artemis during the initial periods of pledge time. Artemis is the hulk in the orange shirt. To be fair Artemis is presenting a bit more on the feminine scale these days, at least for media interviews.

5631

iris lilies
9-16-23, 11:10am
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12457119/Kayla-Lemieux-school-teacher-giant-breasts.html

i appreciate The Daily Mail’s continuing ability to serve up silly bits of human activity, much like The New York Post. What would we do without them keeping us informed? :)

Anyways… that opposite sex ideating teacher (aka “trans”) in Canada with the ginormous breasts who was placed on leave several months ago has been rehired. Word on the street is that he showed up to work this week sans breasts, looking like a man, with stubble.

I don’t know if this is just one chapter in several to come or if it is The End.

I am cutting the school board slack because we have no knowledge of what their legal team is telling them they must do. If they do anything too drastic to this ideating man, they might be hauled in front of one of those Canadian tribunals for wrong think. If they were in England, the cops would pay them a visit and possibly bring them down to the station for further probing.

Until this guy comes out as saying he’s been trolling us all along, I put him in the same category as that creep who sits outside a movie theater in a trenchcoat flashing his junk to children. Same compulsion, different costume..

LDAHL
9-16-23, 11:59am
Canada seems to have proceeded further down the woke rabbit hole than we have. I’ve been reading about an Ontario school library “equity-informed weeding process” that has resulted in the removal of everything prior to 2008.

iris lilies
9-16-23, 2:44pm
Canada seems to have proceeded further down the woke rabbit hole than we have. I’ve been reading about an Ontario school library “equity-informed weeding process” that has resulted in the removal of everything prior to 2008.

I once had a “challenge “in the library I worked for about a book that had the audacity to use an accepted term for its time, it had “ Negro “in the title. It was a published in the 1970s and was a standard text. But no matter, the young lady who complained was very worried that someone would be offended by that careful word.

So yes, I can see that anything before 2008 might be problematic so might as well chuck it all.

Alan
9-16-23, 3:17pm
I've believed for some time that progressivism is simply fascism re-branded. Now, progressive governments are proving me correct.

Rogar
9-16-23, 5:10pm
I have to look up the definition of fascism occasionally as a memory refresh. The definitions I most commonly run across associate it with the far right. Trump seems to fall within the definition I tend to interpret, although they seem to vary slightly one to another.

Fascism is generally defined as a political movement that embraces far-right nationalism and the forceful suppression of any opposition, all overseen by an authoritarian government. Fascists strongly oppose Marxism, liberalism and democracy, and believe the state takes precedence over individual interests. They favor centralized rule, often a single party or leader, and embrace the idea of a national rebirth, a new greatness for their country. Economic self-sufficiency is prized, often through state-controlled companies. Youth, masculinity and strength are highly fetishized.

iris lilies
9-16-23, 9:59pm
I have to look up the definition of fascism occasionally as a memory refresh. The definitions I most commonly run across associate it with the far right. Trump seems to fall within the definition I tend to interpret, although they seem to vary slightly one to another.

Fascism is generally defined as a political movement that embraces far-right nationalism and the forceful suppression of any opposition, all overseen by an authoritarian government. Fascists strongly oppose Marxism, liberalism and democracy, and believe the state takes precedence over individual interests. They favor centralized rule, often a single party or leader, and embrace the idea of a national rebirth, a new greatness for their country. Economic self-sufficiency is prized, often through state-controlled companies. Youth, masculinity and strength are highly fetishized.


I myself cannot always conjure up a good definition of fascism, so I have to look it up too.

I see these elements from your definition of fascism in current left ideology:

liking authoritarian government in telling citizens what to think, commanding them in some health decisions, informing them what to fear and what not to fear

opposing several elements of liberalism (especially free-speech,)

a bit light on loving democracy (such as when the democratically elected Donald Trump wins)

the state should be the leader in all things, with a special love of the state determining what is “true” fact and suppressing all other information

In keeping with their love of state control, centralized rule is a wonderful thing in Left Land.

The idea of “youth, masculinity, and strength [as being ] highly fetishized” is super interesting, because we have certainly entered a world where non-sex and gender bending identity is …Fetishized? If not fetishized, it is certainly promoted as front and center of a national identity.

Rogar
9-17-23, 9:02am
I myself cannot always conjure up a good definition of fascism, so I have to look it up too.

I see these elements from your definition of fascism in current left ideology:

liking authoritarian government in telling citizens what to think, commanding them in some health decisions, informing them what to fear and what not to fear

opposing several elements of liberalism (especially free-speech,)

a bit light on loving democracy (such as when the democratically elected Donald Trump wins)

the state should be the leader in all things, with a special love of the state determining what is “true” fact and suppressing all of their information

In keeping with their love of state control, centralized rule is a wonderful thing in Left Land.

The idea of “youth, masculinity, and strength [as being ] highly fetishized” is super interesting, because we have certainly entered a world where non-sex and gender bending identity is …Fetishized? If not fetishized, it is certainly promoted as front and center of a national identity.

I guess fascism must apply to both the left and also the right, then. It's a matter of degree.

Or maybe if you go far enough to the right or left, it ends up meeting in the same place.

iris lilies
9-17-23, 5:05pm
Washington University’s transgender clinic as well as the trans clinic in the middle of my state have declared they will stop treating ALL minors with medical intervention immediately. (!)

My state recently passed a law that would allow these clinics to continue to treat SOME minors with drugs and surgery. But the law also expands potential legal action by people treated when minors.

I find this very interesting. When the profit motive is put in jeopardy they stop treating the teens, regardless of standards set by the medical community, and also allowances by my state. I wonder why this is. Could it be the growing trend of lawsuits by trans people who had their bodies damaged by gender reassignment treatment when they were teens? Could it be that the trans clinics really don’t have that much faith in their treatments at all and treatments exist primarily for $ $$?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

rosarugosa
9-18-23, 6:00am
I guess fascism must apply to both the left and also the right, then. It's a matter of degree.

Or maybe if you go far enough to the right or left, it ends up meeting in the same place.

Rogar: You continue to impress me with your wisdom. :)

iris lilies
9-25-23, 10:03am
Update to the madness of the trans world:

“women only spaces” which would be an annoying buzz phrase to me under normal circumstances is starting to make sense.

Gay girls are being pressured to accept trans identifying men as their love interest. Trans Identifying men are invading lesbian spaces.

https://afterellen.com/tasmania-rules-against-women-only-spaces/

it is against the law in Tasmania for lesbian women to exclude trans identifying men in their events.

This nice young lady talks about how her successful lesbian dating meet ups or some early canceled when she asked a grow be trans identifying man to live. The man gave unwelcome physical touch to a woman there.

https://afterellen.com/tasmania-rules-against-women-only-spaces/

But the most useful and real testimony comes from young swimmer Paula Scanlon who was the victim of sexual assault, and who did not like being in the locker room 118 times with Leah Thomas. For those of you who don’t understand what this means, elite swimmers take a LONG time to put on their swimsuits. These suits are especially constructed and require a half an hour at least to wriggle into, it isn’t a quick “ on and done” dressing action.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UEb4ktIh9k0&t=1s

in her testimony, she talks about how all of the concerns of several women were ignored. These young women were essentially canceled, and their concern for safety and unease.

iris lilies
10-29-23, 11:27am
I watched a couple of documentaries about recent cults in our society. Probably many of you know about the NXIVM scandal, you know, the self improvement cult headed by Keith Raniere centered in Albany, New York. He was brought down a couple of years ago and is in prison for life for sex trafficking and other crimes. I also watched a documentary about the current cult “ Twin Flame” about finding your true soulmate, run by a married couple.

All of the people who fall for the stuff… Well, that’s another story.

Anyway – it strikes me about these cults and others like them is the inevitable subjugation of women. It doesn’t start out that way, and it doesn’t appear that way in the beginning or at a surface level. But as a cult progresses, it all becomes about sexual victimization of women. Keith Raniere built his empire to brutalize women and provide a steady stream of sexual conquests, some of them adult women and some of them minors.

The “Twin Flame” couple perhaps have not reached that place of female subjugation for the leader - yet – but there are signs they are going in that direction.

It is fascinating to me to see how extremely rigid sex roles are in these cults and in every other cult I can think of. Keith Raniere commanded his followers to accept the fact that men required and deserve multiple sex partners and women did not.

The “ Twin Flames” ” couple is doing something VERY interesting with trans ideology: they have pushed hetero cis people, coerced them, to accept themselves as opposite sex people. This is happening because the Twin Flames leaders are matchmaking in their ranks and there are 80% women and 20% men. So voila! they need to create more men to line up with their rigid sex role ideals.

whoever would’ve thought trans ideology would become a weapon in this way? Crazy.

also, I wonder often why there is or can be such rigidity in trans idealogy. It just seems counter intuitive that black and white gender roles exist here, but it rather seems like cult-think.

iris lilies
10-29-23, 11:43am
One trans woman You Tuber who doesn’t irritate me much is Maya Henry. But even Maya falls into the “I can do woman better than real women” box in her most recent video sharing details of her post-op life of 3 years.

In her video we learn her vagina is porn-star pretty with none of the excessive fleshy parts natal women might have.

Thank you Maya for explaining to us what real women should aspire to. Not really. Here we have yet another man explaining what women should be, yet another man invading women’s spaces.

I think Maya may go on my list of irritating You Tubers after all.

catherine
10-29-23, 1:18pm
That annoys me, too--a trans woman telling cis women how they should be. Kind of like when I told the male doctor that I needed to get to the delivery room and he told me, "oh, I guess you think you're in labor." Or it's like my brother who never worked more than four weeks at a time telling me how I should run my businesses.

My son was dying to see the movie Barbie for some reason. It hasn't really been on my list, but whatever, I went along and even let him pay the ridiculous $20 Amazon was charging to see it on Prime. Well, about halfway in, when DS and DH saw how Ken was sidelined and shut out from all important roles in BarbieWorld because all those jobs went to "Barbies" and when they heard America Ferrara's spot-on monologues, both DS and DH checked out. They hated the movie. "This is an anti-men movie!!" they complained.

I guess my point is, the subtle proof of male dominance emerges everywhere, everyday, in small ways. I'm not a strident feminist, but sometimes it gets annoying.

LDAHL
10-29-23, 3:05pm
I know some kids who use Barbie for a drinking game. You have to chug a beer every time someone says “patriarchy”.

catherine
10-29-23, 3:14pm
I know some kids who use Barbie for a drinking game. You have to chug a beer every time someone says “patriarchy”.

haha!! Ken alone would have everyone under the table!

iris lilies
10-29-23, 5:13pm
I will probably run through the Barbie film when it becomes affordable on an easy to access streaming place. There are pieces of it I’d like to see.

I was shamed and taken to task on another forum for calling this film “a silly romp. “ No! It is high camp said my betters, the woke critics who adore it.

I think it can be both depending on the viewer, but from your description catherine it sounds heavy handed, and preachy. In real life Ken really is a second fiddle character. Who cared about Ken anyway? Not me. his clothes were boring. I love the way Margo Robey is wearing classic Barbie clothes at film premieres. I’m old enough to have had one of the near original Barbies, and those early clothes were exquisite in their tiny details.

frugal-one
10-29-23, 6:08pm
I did see the Barbie movie and was ready to leave after 15 minutes. It is pretty stupid IMO and not worth seeing. I went because 2 people who I thought had the same taste in movies recommended it. I will never trust their judgment again. You were right in your assessment of a SILLY romp.

catherine
10-29-23, 6:13pm
I agree it was cliche-ridden fluff, and if DS and DH didn't like it on that basis, I would have been fine with them not liking it, but it was because they were all of a sudden offended by how the men were treated in the movie.

Simone
11-3-23, 10:49pm
IL,

While I'm sure you're closing in on a frequent truth about cults and the organized religions they occasionally become, i.e., the subjugation of women, please consider an outlier like "Heaven's Gate." It was led by a man and woman, although I think the male had more authority. The members abjured sexual expression in behavior, dress, roles, etc. The majority of the males, and the male leaders, got themselves castrated.

Sam Harris did a really interesting podcast on Heaven's Gate. Listen to the 7th episode of Making Sense: Through the Eyes of a Cult. He has a lot to say about the impulse to believe.


You wrote:
Anyway – it strikes me about these cults and others like them is the inevitable subjugation of women. It doesn’t start out that way, and it doesn’t appear that way in the beginning or at a surface level. But as a cult progresses, it all becomes about sexual victimization of women. Keith Raniere built his empire to brutalize women and provide a steady stream of sexual conquests, some of them adult women and some of them minors.






[/QUOTE]

iris lilies
11-4-23, 1:03pm
I forgot about the
heaven’s Gate people. I don’t know a whole lot about them but will go off to delve into it. The culty cultists are currently of interest to me.

jp1
11-5-23, 6:05am
Republicans will surely be happy to know that their hate the trans efforts are having the desired effect.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/alabama-mayor-bubba-copeland-kills-self-after-right-wing-1819-news-outs-his-cross-dressing

iris lilies
11-5-23, 1:45pm
Republicans will surely be happy to know that their hate the trans efforts are having the desired effect.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/alabama-mayor-bubba-copeland-kills-self-after-right-wing-1819-news-outs-his-cross-dressing

I can’t read the article, but I can tell from the headlines what happened. That is sad and no, I would never celebrate someone killing themselves over something they’re ashamed of.

jp1
11-9-23, 8:50am
“In a statement, the district said the whole show needs to be postponed because of sexual content and profanity.“

The show being discussed? Oklahoma. The LGBTQ haters have lost their damn minds.

https://www.kxii.com/2023/11/06/sherman-high-school-transgender-student-loses-lead-theater-role-over-gender-policy/?fbclid=IwAR3V1tlzN0cKlAujrbrcHNg0801bo6_wc07mnxTv 5JRsn9MJwdogcdXW4bs

iris lilies
11-9-23, 9:12am
“In a statement, the district said the whole show needs to be postponed because of sexual content and profanity.“

The show being discussed? Oklahoma. The LGBTQ haters have lost their damn minds.

https://www.kxii.com/2023/11/06/sherman-high-school-transgender-student-loses-lead-theater-role-over-gender-policy/?fbclid=IwAR3V1tlzN0cKlAujrbrcHNg0801bo6_wc07mnxTv 5JRsn9MJwdogcdXW4bs


Agreed, that is silly. The sex of the lead character seems to have something to do with it, too.

catherine
11-9-23, 11:38am
“In a statement, the district said the whole show needs to be postponed because of sexual content and profanity.“

The show being discussed? Oklahoma. The LGBTQ haters have lost their damn minds.

https://www.kxii.com/2023/11/06/sherman-high-school-transgender-student-loses-lead-theater-role-over-gender-policy/?fbclid=IwAR3V1tlzN0cKlAujrbrcHNg0801bo6_wc07mnxTv 5JRsn9MJwdogcdXW4bs

Sounds like discrimination, pure and simple. Nothing to do with "sexual content and profanity"

jp1
11-10-23, 1:23am
The sex of the lead character seems to have something to do with it, too.

So a musical becomes "dirty" if a trans person is cast in it? Tell me more about this idiotic concept.

iris lilies
11-10-23, 9:10am
So a musical becomes "dirty" if a trans person is cast in it? Tell me more about this idiotic concept.
you read the article. There is some rule at that school about casting people in roles that are the sex they are. Cross sex casting, not for them.

catherine
11-10-23, 10:08am
you read the article. There is some rule at that school about casting people in roles that are the sex they are. Cross sex casting, not for them.

But that's not what they said. It seems that they disguised their discriminatory policy with a claim that there are "sexual themes and profanity" in the show "It was brought to the District’s attention that the current production contained mature adult themes, profane language, and sexual content.". Unless the kids revised Oklahoma and added objectionable content, the board was simply coming up with a story to hide their transphobic policy. Ironically, theatre is almost always a safe haven for LGBTQ+ people, and this school board is denying the actor that.

LDAHL
11-10-23, 11:43am
you read the article. There is some rule at that school about casting people in roles that are the sex they are. Cross sex casting, not for them.

If it was good enough for Shakespeare…

iris lilies
11-10-23, 12:00pm
If it was good enough for Shakespeare…

yes, there’s a long tradition in theatrical productions of one sex playing the other. I thought of that, both in roles where the sexes are obviously interchanged ( Like Mrs. Doubtfire) and in productions where men play women, because women are not allowed on stage such as in ancient Chinese opera.

iris lilies
11-10-23, 12:02pm
But that's not what they said. It seems that they disguised their discriminatory policy with a claim that there are "sexual themes and profanity" in the show "It was brought to the District’s attention that the current production contained mature adult themes, profane language, and sexual content.". Unless the kids revised Oklahoma and added objectionable content, the board was simply coming up with a story to hide their transphobic policy. Ironically, theatre is almost always a safe haven for LGBTQ+ people, and this school board is denying the actor that.

I don’t think the article did a good job and explaining that, or maybe the school itself did a poor job. If Oklahoma is too sexy for the high school students and what does that have to do with cross sex casting? You may be right that they’re using one idea to camouflage another who knows

iris lilies
11-10-23, 3:47pm
I am watching bits and pieces of the tv reality show “Botched” about plastic surgery gone wrong and a team of expert cosmetic surgeons who attempt to fix those botched surgeries.

Many of these clients have body dysmorphia. They need therapy, not surgery. Sometimes the team will understand that and even if they can make the client look to be in more of a normal range after previous bad surgical outcomes, they do not take that surgical job because they know the client will not be happy with it. The client’s expectations are not realistic.

It’s interesting to contemplate where opposite sex ideating people intersect with people with dysmorphia. Wanting boobs were non-exist is a matter of degree in difference from wanting bigger boobs than one was assigned at birth.

iris lilies
11-10-23, 3:57pm
https://apnews.com/article/california-gender-affirm-transgender-nonbinary-children-parents-336c3a7ac2706eb185aa4285b02368ea

Gee, I might vote for Newsom for president simply based on his veto of this ridiculous California law.

I had not heard that Newsom vetoed it. I just knew it was reported on as going through the California legislature as yet another overreach of legislators controlling personal decisions.

Just based on this article, I absolutely agree with Governor Newsom who says in child, custody cases, the health and welfare of a child is already considered so there doesn’t need to be a special provision for a judge to look at “gender affirmation” in parental care.

Praise the Lord for some common sense coming out of California.

Simone
11-11-23, 12:39am
Republicans will surely be happy to know that their hate the trans efforts are having the desired effect.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/alabama-mayor-bubba-copeland-kills-self-after-right-wing-1819-news-outs-his-cross-dressing

Very sad.

Simone
11-11-23, 12:54am
I don’t think the article did a good job and explaining that, or maybe the school itself did a poor job. If Oklahoma is too sexy for the high school students and what does that have to do with cross sex casting? You may be right that they’re using one idea to camouflage another who knows

There is one female character, the one who sings, "I'm just a gal who can't say no/I'm in a terrible fix...." who in the original screenplay is, it seems, stupidly promiscuous. She blunders from one male to the next and her father is always following her around with a rifle, trying to force someone to marry her before she gets pregnant or as soon as.

That's what I recall. I found the libretto, on recent viewing of the musical, really outdated. The dancing was fantastic.

Also, I remember wondering if rural America was being ridiculed throughout. Was the audience supposed to feel superior?

iris lilies
11-11-23, 2:53am
There is one female character, the one who sings, "I'm just a gal who can't say no/I'm in a terrible fix...." who in the original screenplay is, it seems, stupidly promiscuous. She blunders from one male to the next and her father is always following her around with a rifle, trying to force someone to marry her before she gets pregnant or as soon as.

That's what I recall. I found the libretto, on recent viewing of the musical, really outdated. The dancing was fantastic.

Also, I remember wondering if rural America was being ridiculed throughout. Was the audience supposed to feel superior?

oh, right, you’re bringing up the things that I can’t stand about that musical. It is so dumb. It and a couple others form my basis of disliking musicals. But “ Oklahoma” does seem to be a standard high school musical.

catherine
11-11-23, 8:49am
There is one female character, the one who sings, "I'm just a gal who can't say no/I'm in a terrible fix...." who in the original screenplay is, it seems, stupidly promiscuous. She blunders from one male to the next and her father is always following her around with a rifle, trying to force someone to marry her before she gets pregnant or as soon as.

That's what I recall. I found the libretto, on recent viewing of the musical, really outdated. The dancing was fantastic.

Also, I remember wondering if rural America was being ridiculed throughout. Was the audience supposed to feel superior?

Yes, I love musicals, but Oklahoma is certainly not one of them. Unfortunately, some days DH wanders around belting, "Oh, what a beautiful MOORR-NINGGGG!..."

Simone, I agree with your take on it.

iris lilies
2-10-24, 11:20am
For God’s sake.

https://www.advocate.com/sports/lia-thomas-sues-world-aquatics#toggle-gdpr

Lia Thomas is suing the Olympics for not allowing him to swim on a women’s team. Lia wants to compete in the Paris Olympics.

The World Aquatics Organization made a special “ Open” category for people of any gender to compete in. But no one signed up! The Lia Thomases of the world want to dominate a sport, women’s sport, with their 6’1” bodies, size 11 feet, 12” hands.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/03/swimming-world-cup-category-for-transgender-athletes-cancelled-after-no-entries-received

iris lilies
3-4-24, 3:08pm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8040688/

Help! Need help in deciphering the convoluted byzantine world of trans terminology. The abstract of this article refers to its study population as being “trans and non-binary menstruators.”

I haven’t yet read the article. I believe they are talking about natal females, right?

I’m doing a dive into the Internet to find objective evidence that trans women suffer from “period cramps.” Many of them claim that.

I accept that estrogen may well produce breast tenderness, hot flashes, mood swings, in these people. I get that.

What I do not accept based on common sense is that they have “cramps” because cramping is a function of uterine action. They do not have uteruses that produce “cramps.”

I posit this is a mental fabrication.

So, who is this study referencing, natal females? If so, it will not help my research.

edited to add: I skimmed the study and found that they are referring to research subjects who take testosterone, so at this point I assume the research subjects are natal females. Using scientific language to describe a science/health issue does not conform to trans ideology. It us the goal of that population of obfuscate facts.

iris lilies
3-5-24, 1:33pm
Continuing on in my investigations, I see further obfuscation of language, I think anyway. At this point in modern times who knows?

This website representing health providers who treat trans patients refer to “trans women” with cervixes. Hmmmm.

I think they need to go back to trans activism school to learn the terminology. Yes it is confusing. In trans medicine it is a “trans man” who has a cervix, assuming no sex reassignment surgery has taken place. Up is down, black is white. Such are the concepts in trans medicine.

https://statcarewalkin.com/info/why-w

iris lilies
3-25-24, 1:37pm
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2024/03/19/college-athletes-sue-ncaa-over-trans-eligibility-policies

https://apnews.com/article/transgender-lia-thomas-swimming-lawsuit-b7df63108a03100f36b2e4364d585cdc

https://www.sportico.com/law/analysis/2024/riley-gaines-sues-ncaa-transgender-policy-1234770946/

Here are several sources for the same story: female college athletes are suing the NCAA for failure to follow Title IX’s requirements. Allowing men to compete in women’s events, allowing men to invade locker rooms and female-only spaces is their charge.

If you think it’s silly to focus on defining “what is a woman” here’s an example of why it’s necessary. But that said, I do not know if this lawsuit will be successful.

iris lilies
3-25-24, 5:13pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-4WV9xv62f4&pp=ygUIR2Vuc3BlY3Q%3D

I really like this young, matter of fact evolutionary biologist, Dr. Colin Wright. He delivers his lecturea about dimorphic mammalian sex in an objective, easy-to understand way.

From his talk: There are two human sexes. Sex, not gender.

Gender is a different discussion.

jp1
3-25-24, 9:55pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-4WV9xv62f4&pp=ygUIR2Vuc3BlY3Q%3D

I really like this young, matter of fact evolutionary biologist, Dr. Colin Wright. He delivers his lecturea about dimorphic mammalian sex in an objective, easy-to understand way.

From his talk: There are two human sexes. Sex, not gender.

Gender is a different discussion.

Perhaps that's why they call themselves transgender and not transsex?

I'm not curious enough to watch the video but I do wonder if he acknowledges intersex individuals. They would seem to defy his belief that there are only two human sexes. Unless he thinks they are actually both sexes at the same time.

ToomuchStuff
3-25-24, 10:24pm
Both sexes at the same time is a medical condition called hermaphrodite. I remember seeing and explaining it on a application years ago.

Wish I could remember who said, show me an archaeologist that has found a third sex.

iris lilies
3-26-24, 12:29am
Both sexes at the same time is a medical condition called hermaphrodite. I remember seeing and explaining it on a application years ago.

Wish I could remember who said, show me an archaeologist that has found a third sex.

the word “hermaphrodite “is considered a slur in the intersex world, it’s quite old-fashioned and frowned upon.

but yeah, intersex folks are not a third sex. They are dimorphism gone wrong. Or gone off a little in most cases. There are all kinds of curious anomalies in sex markers but they are anomalies.

Common thought among intersex people is that there are many more intersex people out there in the population than is commonly believed. Why, there are as many intersex people as there are redheads! Or so we are expected to think.

But in the end, the vast majority of those intersex people can line up rather easily with male or female people.

You are right, there’s not a third sex and intersex people are not reproducing to make more intersex people just like them.

iris lilies
3-26-24, 12:37am
Perhaps that's why they call themselves transgender and not transsex?

I'm not curious enough to watch the video but I do wonder if he acknowledges intersex individuals. They would seem to defy his belief that there are only two human sexes. Unless he thinks they are actually both sexes at the same time.


of course he acknowledges intersex… as anomalies of nature andhe talks aboutthose instances. They don’t defy sexual dimorphism in mammals. Just like babies born without a leg do not redefine human bipedalism.

It’s standard science, but I know that it’s hard to accept, it doesn’t fit a currently popular narrative.

iris lilies
3-26-24, 12:45am
Perhaps that's why they call themselves transgender and not transsex?



and yet, trans activists bludgeon anyone who doesn’t accept a natal male as female/woman when that natal male identifies as woman/female. Our laws protecting women are not about gender, they are about sex. Our institutions serving women define their service area as for women/females.

Simone
3-29-24, 9:59pm
If you think it’s silly to focus on defining “what is a woman” here’s an example of why it’s necessary. But that said, I do not know if this lawsuit will be successful.

I don't think it's silly at all. I don't think males who transition after puberty should compete athletically against natal females.

But the truth is, I get too angry if I go near this topic. I hear you calling out, "It's not fair!" to a mostly silent room.

Just want you to know I am listening and I do agree.

iris lilies
4-10-24, 10:40pm
The Cass report, the full thing, has been issued. Dr. Hillary Cass is a pediatrician who was given the responsibility to delve into gender treatment of children at the Tavistock clinic in England. Tavistock closed the store about a year ago to gender treatment for minors. The National Health Service officially stopped puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for children last fall.

There will be some interesting conclusions in this report, no doubt. I’m sure the trans activist community will not be able to accept any of it as fact. it will just be shouted down as TERF material.

It is too bad that scientific exploration in this area in the United States, is pretty much dead due to the politics of it.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/CassReview_Final.pdf

jp1
4-10-24, 11:04pm
The Cass report, the full thing, has been issued. Dr. Hillary Cass is a pediatrician who was given the responsibility to delve into gender treatment of children at the Tavistock clinic in England. Test stock close the store about a year ago to gender treatment for minors. The national health service officially stopped puberty, blockers and hormone hormones for children last fall.

There will be some interesting conclusions in this report, no doubt. I’m sure the trans activist community will not be able to accept any of it as fact. it will just be shotted down as TERF material.

It is too bad that scientific exploration in this area in the United States, is pretty much dead due to the politics of it.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/CassReview_Final.pdf

And I'm sure the trans hater community in the US will keep focusing on how they perceive that Joe Biden turned easter into a trans event. Because the trans haters are that much divorced from reality. And then they'll wonder why everyone ignores them.

Alan
4-10-24, 11:12pm
And I'm sure the trans hater community in the US will keep focusing on how they perceive that Joe Biden turned easter into a trans event. Because the trans haters are that much divorced from reality. And then they'll wonder why everyone ignores them.
LOL, we all saw his proclamation of March 31st as Trans Visibility Day even though he then said he didn't do that. It must have been difficult for CIS haters to sit quietly for 10 days anxiously awaiting someone to bring it up on their regular online discussion forums but then having to do it themselves. Makes you wonder who's ignoring who.

iris lilies
4-11-24, 12:04am
LOL, we all saw his proclamation of March 31st as Trans Visibility Day even though he then said he didn't do that. It must have been difficult for CIS haters to sit quietly for 10 days anxiously awaiting someone to bring it up on their regular online discussion forums but then having to do it themselves. Makes you wonder who's ignoring who.
Right, I heard something about that, but I thought it was insignificant and boring so I didn’t mention it because I forgot about it.

In the trans debate there are serious loss of freedoms and experimental medicalization of children and young people going on, and those have more import.

bae
4-11-24, 4:30am
Does Easter come on the same day every year?

ToomuchStuff
4-11-24, 5:17am
Does Easter come on the same day every year?

Yes, always a Sunday.