View Full Version : Student loan forgiveness
flowerseverywhere
6-2-23, 10:46am
I just don't get it. This was one of the contentious issues in the recent debt ceiling fight.
I know not one person who thinks this is a good idea except for perhaps people who staffed the hospitals and ambulances tirelessly could have been rewarded with a program like this. Most think the moratorium should have been much shorter. Especially when things started opening up and help wanted signs were everywhere.
Its not pleasant to pick up extra hours when you are working, but millions of students work their way through school, Work full time and take a few courses at a time, attend community college and live at home, parents like me worked extra hospital to help them, and none of these are easy.
So I hope somebody can explain it to me, as the debt ceiling raise might have been easier to get through. it just doesn't make any sense as many many people would love to attend university full time and live there, however are not willing to pay exorbitant costs and take massive loans.
iris lilies
6-2-23, 12:02pm
When you say you know not one person in favor of student loan forgiveness, please know your personal anecdotal polling is insufficient.
This poll by the Cato institute shows 64% of Americans are in favor of at least some student loan forgiveness, and Cato is not exactly a friend to the AOC’s of the world. Not surprisingly, 88% of those who currently hold student loans covered by this proposed program are in favor of student loan forgiveness.
I doubt that you will find anyone to explain it to you here on this website since this is a small group of people who are frankly pretty old. We could have our own poll I suppose, but jeppy can only vote once! Did you hear me jep? Ha ha I’m just pulling your chain. Ultralight Angler no longer comes to our website but he would probably be a “yes “vote.
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-poll-76-americans-oppose-student-debt-cancellation-it-drives-price-college-64-oppose-it#:~:text=The%20Cato%202022%20Student%20Debt,per% 20year%20for%20married%20couples.
In principle, I was in favor of the deal where you worked off your debt by doing the employment equivalent of community service--in certain "helper" fields. But apparently, that was badly mismanaged. Otherwise, I'd be in favor of low-interest student loans and counseling to help prospective debtors see the light before they saddled themselves with massive loans. I'm also strongly in favor of cheap or free community college. I think much of Europe has the right idea--a well-educated population is a valuable investment.
(I worked my way through college at a time when state college was mostly affordable to all.)
The long term fix is to stop requiring people to have unnecessary paper credentials for jobs.
If you really need a credential (lawyer, doctor) you can earn enough to pay for it.
The problem is employers requiring it when it's not needed. Then they wonder why they can't get help in the midst of a labor shortage. Why work a low wage job when if you are unemployed you get a pause on your payments?
I wonder how the results would look if the question were “Would you support the transfer of college debt liabilities from the original debtors to the general public?”
flowerseverywhere
6-2-23, 2:47pm
I wonder how the results would look if the question were “Would you support the transfer of college debt liabilities from the original debtors to the general public?”
The survey IL referenced that. If it raised taxes, made colleges charge more or made more businesses require it, far fewer people approve it. You know it is OK to fund stuff, but not if my own taxes go up type of thinking.
What I don't see anyone addressing is the banks. The banks are making money hand over fist with loans. I had a National Defense Education Act loan for 1 year of college in 1969. I taught in a title 1 school and each year there my loan interest was reduced as was my principle. My $3000 loan was reduced to $1500. We were told that defaulting on that would reduce the amount of people who could get that loan. I'm pretty sure at that time the Feds ran it, not private banks. It was only for tuition and room and board and I don't think I ever saw money, it went right to the school. I do think banks have been taking advantage of these loans for years.
littlebittybobby
6-2-23, 3:36pm
Okay---I already gave my 2 cents on this, and don't have the time to give the convoluted explanation to justify why this is one demmacrat public policy I can agree with. Because see----most ideologues for- --and particularly against the proposal tend to oversimplify it; mainly because they don't see it as THEIR problem. One of my case studies joined the military right after high school, spent the next 20+ years in the Navy, re-entered civilian life in another very structured occupation, and draws his pension and benefits and so on. He's a patridiotic flag-waver, who supports our troops. He detests the idea of loan forgiveness. Yup. But yeah---if you said "lets cut entitlements for veterans, because they were just serving their country like any patriot should, regardless of any economic gain" , why---he'd go berserk like an antifa demonstrator! Yup. But in my view, most defense spending is a colossal example of waste. Yup. So anyway---he is typical of mosta the hard-assed reactionary types who oppose discounting student loan balances. Which is what it is---a discount, on a way overpriced service that has been rendered by mostly "non-profit" organizations, also highly- subsidized by govverment and private donors, and for-profit diploma mills, as well. What is happening is,, you are putting Those People(students) in a Debtors' Prison without walls, where they don't get 3 hotts and a cot, like common criminal thugs do. The banks are adding interest and the gubmint is claiming tax refunds, etc. See? It was a grand experiment to hand out E-Z loans the way they did, to naive young people, and we see the outcome. It needs to change, so this won't continue to happen. They owe their souls to the company store. As I've said before(and I read this in the newspaper), tuition at our local post-sec schools has inflated something on the order of 10x in the last 30 years! But what's new in the world of ABC's and 123's? Not a whole lot. But the Universe-ities are expanding, with more and more useless subjects! Yup. It's a racket.
So anyway---give the kids a break, and a nice discount on the tuition they can't pay off, and write it off. Yup. Hope that helpps you some.
Teacher Terry
6-2-23, 5:11pm
People need financial counseling before they take out student loans. Owing a bunch of money for a worthless degree is not smart. I am against loan forgiveness unless it’s related to a career that’s needed such as agreeing to teach in a low income school for a number of years in exchange. This agreement needs to be in writing in advance of obtaining the money. Then upon graduation the student can comply with the terms or pay the loan back.
Well, I am Old, but when I went to college in 1969, tuition at state colleges in California was roughly $180/ year. My books were $150. That was the cost of college: $330/yr. Post Viet Nam war era, most of the men were using VA education benefits. The women were either still living with their parents, or working hard to pay to live elsewhere. And minimum wage was $1.35. There was very little “living in the dorms.” If you commuted, you shared rides, even though gas was 23 cents a gallon. Parking on campus was scarce and cost $1 for 4 hours! A parking ticket was $25!!
I didn’t/don’t know anyone who had a “student loan.” We paid as we went, or didn’t go. Period.
Graduate school, for me to get my teaching credentials and masters degree 12 years later, was a similar story. Found a program with late afternoon/ evening classes so I could continue to work full time during first semester and summer session. Took a 4-month leave and financed second semester with credit card. Got my credential and Master’s end of May, went back to work full time through the summer, had card paid off by the time I started teaching in September.
Some were along the line, late 90s early 2000s, parents started indulging their kids by “sending them away to college.” Ha! Sounds like a parent perk to me, get the kids out of the house, be free to travel etc. Often loans were involved, easy to get loans. Soon the parents were mightily in debt, now the students themselves had to sign for the loans.
Kids signing big loans, what could possibly go wrong? Turns out, a whole lot. The economy tanked, interest accrued, but people kept asking and banks kept granting student loans, even when they weren’t making car loans or home loans. Big loans, whose fault/responsibility? Parents were used to money flowing easily, and Education is such a worthwhile investment. Not any more, as it turns out.
The economy crashed, turned out the jobs didn’t pay so well after all the inflation, but banks kept extending credit because they had student loans…
I think the BANKS should pick up their share of responsibility in this mess. Rewrite the loan to the existing principle plus 5% non- compounding interest. Let these people get out from under this mess, that they got into by trusting their parents and the System. It’s all just paper anyway.
I actually find myself agreeing with yppej! At least as one part of the solution. My employer’s former parent company, a London based insurance company, had a ceo for a dedade or so until recently, successful and well respected in the industry, who did not have a college degree. He had started at the bottom of the insurance underwriting ladder out of high school and worked his way up starting in a very junior training program. He, and I, don’t need a college degree to do this job. Except that I DO because in the US a degree is required for most office jobs. No one has ever asked me for details about my degree. Nothing about whether it was relevant to the job I was applying for or how I did. Just whether I have a diploma, any diploma.
But I also agree that the cost of education has gotten way out of hand. Partially because colleges have ‘fancified’ campuses to attract more students/customers. But also because government funding has dramatically decreased. There is zero logical reason that we fully fund education through high school and then largely stop funding anything beyond that. Unless the goal is to push young people into feeling that their only choice to make it in this world is to get a degree and join the rat race to pay off that degree. Sort of in the same way that getting a good job is by far the easiest way to get reliable, affordable health insurance. Society would probably be a better place if people could afford to pursue education for reasons beyond viewing a college degree as a necessity to a good (read decent paying) job.
I say all this to say that Ldahl does in fact know someone (me) in favor of loan forgiveness even though I think a bigger solution also needs to happen. I never had a student loan because I was lucky enough to attend a private university which, at the time, was spending a lot of money on scholarships in an effort to up their reputation as a decent academic institution and also to improve the music school’s reputation beyond jazz music. I randomly happened to be able to benefit from both of those things by getting a half tuition music scholarship and a half tuition academic scholarship. I could have gone to the university of Colorado and paid full in state tuition plus room and board for about 25% more total cost than just the room and board my parents paid to the private university I went to. The education would have been equally valuable but I decided, and my parents supported the decision, to go to the private school because the weather in Miami is a lot better than it is in Boulder.
Teacher Terry
6-2-23, 9:52pm
I graduated in 1972 and most of my friends had parents that could afford to send them away to college and live in the dorms. None had student loans. None were blue collar workers. My parents let us all live at home for free, loaned us the money for college with no interest or pay back schedules and a part time job was expected to pay for car insurance and miscellaneous expenses.
My parents were blue collar and their coworkers thought they were crazy and made their kids move out. My parents valued education. I was the only one that didn’t take them up on their offer and got married young. We paid cash as we went for my degrees.,
I lived at home and attended the local college for my first two years, during which time I was able to save enough to go to university, with a small amount of help from the folks. Of course higher education cost much less then, but I liked the idea one of the politicians proposed to pay tuition for local community colleges. Seems like a better use of money than loan forgiveness, although that's something of a mute issue right now. There are alternatives to expensive out of town universities.
I don't know how common it is for young people to work while in college, but it was pretty much a given for me and friends to work summers and then occasional part time while in school.
When my grandfather died, he stipulated that his inheritance to his grandchildren was to be spent on health or education only until we turned 30. We were the recipients of enough money to get us though college at the time (Room & board $4k/year). So I was so lucky to be able to just enjoy college life.
My DD went to a private liberal university and her tuition/R&B was 10 times that. We cash-flowed 2 years for her and then took loans out for the other 2 years. I was surprised that a) it was SO EASY to get a loan. b) the terms were terrible when it comes to paying it down/off. Interest-only for years. That alone will keep you a slave to debt for a decade or more.
It probably comes down to financial literacy. Are children/parents responsible for the debt they signed up for? Absolutely. But, as jp said, things have to change, and borrowers need to be educated as to the ramifications of taking on these big loans. Many monthly payments are as big or bigger than a mortgage payment. The total price tag does not match up with earning potential in many cases, and it discourages people from getting a liberal, well-rounded education (high-paying job in Russian literature, anyone?) which I think has so much value but it's questionable as to whether or not the price of education these days is worth it.
I agree with bobby: Debtor's Prison without Walls is what people wind up in.
Our state is going to require financial literacy classes for graduation. Only big issue is the time they are giving to even start.
https://fox59.com/indiana-news/indiana-to-require-financial-literacy-course-in-high-school/#:~:text=INDIANAPOLIS%20%E2%80%93%20Under%20a%20ne w%20state,as%20an%20elective%20right%20now.
I think there should be other stipulations on loans, like what your future earnings will be like. Going to an expensive private school for something like teaching or social work? State university for you!
People attend expensive, prestigious colleges for the lifelong contacts they make that translate into $$$. Just ask JD Vance.
I could see earning tuition and books credits by doing some sort of public service, maybe like the old CCC or education under the GI bill. That makes more sense to me than a loan forgiveness give away. It seems like some liberal politician has suggested that, but can't remember who. These days it would probably get caught up in some sort of political theater.
People attend expensive, prestigious colleges for the lifelong contacts they make that translate into $$$. Just ask JD Vance.
Why do teachers and social workers need those kind of contacts?
Why do teachers and social workers need those kind of contacts?
Do a high percentage of teachers and social workers emerge from ivy league schools? To be honest, I've had no personal experience with rich and influential friends, myself. :D
Do a high percentage of teachers and social workers emerge from ivy league schools? To be honest, I've had no personal experience with rich and influential friends, myself. :D
My point was that people with low earning potential, such as teachers and social workers, shouldn’t be taking out loans to go to expensive private schools. I wasn’t even thinking about Ivy League. There’s plenty of smaller schools with a price tag. Northwestern or Notre Dame come to mind.
My point was that people with low earning potential, such as teachers and social workers, shouldn’t be taking out loans to go to expensive private schools. I wasn’t even thinking about Ivy League. There’s plenty of smaller schools with a price tag. Northwestern or Notre Dame come to mind.
I don't see much logic to going to a super-expensive school for a teaching degree. Maybe I'm out of touch.
My point was that people with low earning potential, such as teachers and social workers, shouldn’t be taking out loans to go to expensive private schools. I wasn’t even thinking about Ivy League. There’s plenty of smaller schools with a price tag. Northwestern or Notre Dame come to mind.
Some of the Ivy League schools are essentially free if you have financial need. Columbia, Harvard, and Princeton issue financial awards packages that include $zero in student loans, and students graduate debt-free.
If the average student debt on leaving college is south of $30K, does that really constitute a crisis? The media can always find someone who overleveraged themselves as a “victim of the system”, but does the cost of a cheap car really merit all the political posturing?
iris lilies
6-5-23, 10:18am
If the average student debt on leaving college is south of $30K, does that really constitute a crisis? The media can always find someone who overleveraged themselves as a “victim of the system”, but does the cost of a cheap car really merit all the political posturing?
I agree, and when I did the exercise just a few years ago of how much my graduate degree would cost in today’s dollars, it was about that cost of a cheap car. It’s not all that hard to pay that amount off in a few years.
I agree, and when I did the exercise just a few years ago of how much my graduate degree would cost in today’s dollars, it was about that cost of a cheap car. It’s not all that hard to pay that amount off in a few years.
Right, but if you go to a 4-year private college and you take out loans to do it, your debt is likely to be much more--if you borrow half of your education, room and board, you are already at $80k. And, as I said, you have to be educated on the fact that the government loan programs payback terms are interest-only for years.
I think both parties are complicit: the borrowers go into it ignorantly, and the lenders go into it opportunistically.
When I graduated in 1985, I had ~$22k in outstanding student loans. My starting salary as an engineer that year was $24k/yr. It took me some years to pay it off. For housing during those years, I was renting, my half of the rent was ~$7k/yr.
My partner’s daughter just graduated with a similar degree. She has $0 in outstanding student loans. Her starting salary as an engineer last year was ~$92k, and she received a 10% raise after 6 months. Her rent in an overpriced part of the country is ~$24k/yr for a non-shared apartment.
I think both parties are complicit: the borrowers go into it ignorantly, and the lenders go into it opportunistically.
Why blame lenders for not applying credit standards on government guaranteed loans? Why not blame government for making those standards irrelevant? Why not blame the schools for competing with students based on amenities or increasing overhead costs with elaborate bureaucracies unrelated to education itself. The DEI industry alone seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.
I think both parties are complicit: the borrowers go into it ignorantly, and the lenders go into it opportunistically.
I find that odd. When I went to college, I had to investigate the various loan and grant options available to me, and judge between them all. It did not involve any complicated math. I would think someone going to college would be expected to understand that level of analysis.
Then again, people get ripped off all the time with auto and consumer credit because they can't do math, or they want instant gratification, or ....
I find that odd. When I went to college, I had to investigate the various loan and grant options available to me, and judge between them all. It did not any complicated math. I would think someone going to college would be expected to understand that level of analysis.
Then again, people get ripped off all the time with auto and consumer credit because they can't do math, or they want instant gratification, or ....
Yes, some are more prudent than others, that's for sure. That's why I would like to see systemic changes (relate to LDAHL's points), but I also believe you are responsible for your own decisions. I shared my DD's school debt with her until her husband cleaned up the last of it for just before they got married in 2020. She graduated in 2007. 13 years of debt pay-off for 4 years of schooling. She wound up as a graphic designer for strapped NGOs. (Obviously neither my DD nor I are one of the financially prudent ones)
I don't see much logic to going to a super-expensive school for a teaching degree. Maybe I'm out of touch.
I don’t see the logic either. But I’ve known a fair number of people who’ve gotten degrees from expensive private colleges for teaching, social work, and other similarly low paying fields. Some wanted to go to a certain religious college. A friend’s daughter recently graduated with $100K in student loans for a social work degree. It makes no sense.
flowerseverywhere
6-5-23, 4:00pm
This is very interesting how Devrie defrauded students and the students were given government relief and the school is still eligible for federal loans to students. doesn't make much sense to me.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/16/1081107925/education-department-devry-university-borrower-defense-student-loan-relief#:~:text=With%20this%20announcement%2C%20the %20Biden%20administration%20says%20it,for%20more%2 0than%20107%2C000%20borrowers%20through%20borrower %20defense.
It seems like if they just came out and said taxpayers will pay you instead of the government it would be more honest
A relative of mine got involved with DeVry, and ended up working in robotics engineering for a Fortune 100 company. Rare happy ending?
Back to my earlier post, when I was contemplating college instate tuition at the University of Colorado was about $1250/semester for a full time student. Today it's $6,812 per semester. If I had taken out loans for 4 years' of tuition that would've been $10,000, or $27,528 adjusted for inflation. Today it would be $54,496. Literally just under twice as much. For the same degree. The problem is bigger than student loans. It's that society has decided that funding college education is not a priority. Looking at the politics of education today probably offers some clues as to why that is. Student loan forgiveness is necessary but so is finding a better long-term solution to the cost of higher education.
flowerseverywhere
6-6-23, 10:59am
A relative of mine got involved with DeVry, and ended up working in robotics engineering for a Fortune 100 company. Rare happy ending?
Probably not so rare. But if you say 99% of our graduates a employed in their field, for examp!e and only 50% are and they take massive loans on that basis, it is not right. In many cases people hear what they want to hear and make assumptions. I remember a friend saying you can do anything with an English degree. Maybe so but probably not make enough to pay student loans, live on your own and perhaps not be able support a family.
Probably not so rare. But if you say 99% of our graduates a employed in their field, for examp!e and only 50% are and they take massive loans on that basis, it is not right. In many cases people hear what they want to hear and make assumptions. I remember a friend saying you can do anything with an English degree. Maybe so but probably not make enough to pay student loans, live on your own and perhaps not be able support a family.
He managed to finance most of his education with the GI Bill.
My mother was one who touted the English degree theory. That may have held water when I started school, but it was just a memory by the time I graduated. In my next life, I won't touch a liberal arts course--I can easily learn that stuff on my own.
My mother was one who touted the English degree theory. That may have held water when I started school, but it was just a memory by the time I graduated.
My daughter is a Research Fellow at Cambridge. Her salary is ~$52k/year. She also receives hugely discounted faculty/fellow housing consisting of a very small flat with kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, and a sitting-room meant for receiving/teaching students. She receives two meals free a day at the College dining hall, which is no meagre benefit - dinners are served with wine, and many meals have servants doing full table service. The hall also looks just like Hogwarts.
For all of this, she had to work her way all the way up to Ph.D., publish, and then compete for one of the handful of positions available, there were ~400 applicants for the position. Probably the other Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Celticists are working in museums as guides, or teaching Latin to high schoolers.
Now, she'd make *more* here working on one of our local whale-watching boats being a wildlife guide. Or cleaning houses. Which is her backup plan.
She graduated from her US undergraduate institution with no debt, had to pay for her UK Masters out-of-pocket as she was a foreigner, and her UK Ph.D. was entirely grant-funded and included a $31k/year stipend for living expenses.
She refused my suggestion to get a minor in petrochemical engineering so she'd be employable.
"She refused my suggestion to get a minor in petrochemical engineering so she'd be employable."
I think it's smart to get qualified in two disparate fields.
I've thought I should have moved to Europe and specialized in translations and editorial work.
Probably not so rare. But if you say 99% of our graduates a employed in their field, for examp!e and only 50% are and they take massive loans on that basis, it is not right. In many cases people hear what they want to hear and make assumptions. I remember a friend saying you can do anything with an English degree. Maybe so but probably not make enough to pay student loans, live on your own and perhaps not be able support a family.
I have a journalism degree. I have always touted at job interviews that I can write and don’t need spell check (typing on a smart phone here get you weird auto correct results!). A lot of people can’t string coherent sentences together and spell badly. I think it’s been one thing to make me stand out.
I have a journalism degree. I have always touted at job interviews that I can write and don’t need spell check (typing on a smart phone here get you weird auto correct results!). A lot of people can’t string coherent sentences together and spell badly. I think it’s been one thing to make me stand out.
Being able to write well is absolutely a worthwhile skill. I wasn't a journalism major but I wrote enough papers in high school and college that I can also write reasonably well. I've never touted that as a particular skill but it's definitely come in handy in various jobs I've had over the years.
THinking about autocorrect, there used to be (maybe still is) a site with a name like "damn you autocorrect" that posted hysterical autocorrect gaffes.
I've seen it amusingly called "auto carrot."
ToomuchStuff
6-7-23, 5:09am
Some of the Ivy League schools are essentially free if you have financial need. Columbia, Harvard, and Princeton issue financial awards packages that include $zero in student loans, and students graduate debt-free.
And in some cases where there is no need. Friend had seven figures set aside for his daughters education. She went out on her own and got a full ride from Harvard, got her MD and went to work for something that I confuse with the WHO.
I find that odd. When I went to college, I had to investigate the various loan and grant options available to me, and judge between them all. It did not involve any complicated math. I would think someone going to college would be expected to understand that level of analysis.
Then again, people get ripped off all the time with auto and consumer credit because they can't do math, or they want instant gratification, or ....
There lies the problem, people have the right to be stupid.
I certainly wasn't ready for college at 18. Didn't want to deal with the same idiots from school (where I had been at gun point and had a knife to my throat), certainly didn't have any money. (I always wondered why people whose parents divorced, were required to put money aside for their kids college, but as a kid from a marriage where they stayed together, at 18 you are on your own)
I finally started at 20, paying as I went, as one of the values my grandmother instilled in me was don't take on things you can't pay for. During that semester she was diagnosed with a brain tumor. The next semester I was working full time, trying to go to school full time and doing the Hospice, thing. (averaging 4 hours of sleep a night), school had to give and she passed.
Within days of that, I had to move into her house to secure it from a neighbor that tried to break in, help break up the property. A month later, after moving my inheritance four times in a week I found out that due to my inlaws new job, my sibling wasn't getting the house. I inherited half and had to buy the other half out, no more college, must pay mortgage.
Now my grandma's "fourth grandkid" (kid of family friends we grew up with,who is much younger), at 37, finally got a job with the degree he took out student loans for, and I don't think the cover what he paid. (comic book degree)
My daughter is a Research Fellow at Cambridge. Her salary is ~$52k/year. She also receives hugely discounted faculty/fellow housing consisting of a very small flat with kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, and a sitting-room meant for receiving/teaching students. She receives two meals free a day at the College dining hall, which is no meagre benefit - dinners are served with wine, and many meals have servants doing full table service. The hall also looks just like Hogwarts.
For all of this, she had to work her way all the way up to Ph.D., publish, and then compete for one of the handful of positions available, there were ~400 applicants for the position. Probably the other Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Celticists are working in museums as guides, or teaching Latin to high schoolers.
Now, she'd make *more* here working on one of our local whale-watching boats being a wildlife guide. Or cleaning houses. Which is her backup plan.
She graduated from her US undergraduate institution with no debt, had to pay for her UK Masters out-of-pocket as she was a foreigner, and her UK Ph.D. was entirely grant-funded and included a $31k/year stipend for living expenses.
She refused my suggestion to get a minor in petrochemical engineering so she'd be employable.
I read recently that Cambridge is saying that “Anglo-Saxon” isn’t a real thing anymore. It apparently contributes to “myths of nationalism”.
flowerseverywhere
6-7-23, 11:24am
My daughter is a Research Fellow at Cambridge. Her salary is ~$52k/year. She also receives hugely discounted faculty/fellow housing consisting of a very small flat with kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, and a sitting-room meant for receiving/teaching students. She receives two meals free a day at the College dining hall, which is no meagre benefit - dinners are served with wine, and many meals have servants doing full table service. The hall also looks just like Hogwarts.
For all of this, she had to work her way all the way up to Ph.D., publish, and then compete for one of the handful of positions available, there were ~400 applicants for the position. Probably the other Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Celticists are working in museums as guides, or teaching Latin to high schoolers.
Now, she'd make *more* here working on one of our local whale-watching boats being a wildlife guide. Or cleaning houses. Which is her backup plan.
She graduated from her US undergraduate institution with no debt, had to pay for her UK Masters out-of-pocket as she was a foreigner, and her UK Ph.D. was entirely grant-funded and included a $31k/year stipend for living expenses.
She refused my suggestion to get a minor in petrochemical engineering so she'd be employable.
With discounted room, board and no commuting to work expenses it seems wonderful. I hope she is very happy.
Being able to write well is absolutely a worthwhile skill. I wasn't a journalism major but I wrote enough papers in high school and college that I can also write reasonably well. I've never touted that as a particular skill but it's definitely come in handy in various jobs I've had over the years.
THinking about autocorrect, there used to be (maybe still is) a site with a name like "damn you autocorrect" that posted hysterical autocorrect gaffes.
Yes, I remember that website. It was hysterical.
I’ll tell you, these days touting your writing skills is absolutely a good idea, given how badly many people spell and write.
I've seen it amusingly called "auto carrot."
OMG, love that!
I see the President has vetoed a bill that cleared both houses that would have killed his debt “forgiveness” move. The SCOTUS gets the final word on the matter.
frugal-one
6-8-23, 12:44pm
I see the President has vetoed a bill that cleared both houses that would have killed his debt “forgiveness” move. The SCOTUS gets the final word on the matter.
So we know how that will go....
iris lilies
6-8-23, 1:02pm
So we know how that will go....
So how will that go then? The right way? The constitutionally valid way?
So how will that go then? The right way? The constitutionally valid way?
However the radically conservative want it to go. I don't care one way or another but you know it won't fly.
iris lilies
6-8-23, 3:58pm
However the radically conservative want it to go. I don't care one way or another but you know it won't fly.
Oh goodie I DO hope you are right.
It is important that the Supremes focus on what the President is constitutionally allowed to do. I tire of the kings in our
White House (those of any party) deciding they can do whatever they think of.
I'm curious where in the Constitution is to be found the power for the Federal government to get involved with student loans in the first place.
flowerseverywhere
6-9-23, 6:29am
I'm curious where in the Constitution is to be found the power for the Federal government to get involved with student loans in the first place.
Its in the same place where it says public money has to be used to help people pay for religious schools, women cannot make decisions about their reproductive health, and parts of history can be erased or altered if it makes someone else feel bad.
Its in the same place where it says public money has to be used to help people pay for religious schools, women cannot make decisions about their reproductive health, and parts of history can be erased or altered if it makes someone else feel bad.
I think school vouchers, abortion and school curricula should be issues decided at the local level and not by edict from the imperial center. The fact that the Constitution functions to keep the various elements of government in their proper lane is feature rather than a bug. I think the court is best understood in that context rather than as a wish granting institution.
flowerseverywhere
6-11-23, 6:44am
I think school vouchers, abortion and school curricula should be issues decided at the local level and not by edict from the imperial center. The fact that the Constitution functions to keep the various elements of government in their proper lane is feature rather than a bug. I think the court is best understood in that context rather than as a wish granting institution.
Current republican presidential nominees have been clear they will restrict abortion and with Pence, he wants no abortion at all. It seems like our presidents are more and more drunk with power. Executive orders fly out of the Oval office in all administrations. Many times Trump threatened to cut federal funding for schools if they did not follow his edict.
But here is the funny thing. No one wants their federal government involved in their state business. Here in Florida, DeSantis claims we are a free state. But when a hurricane hits then they suddenly want the federal government to pour money into their coffers.
iris lilies
6-30-23, 11:01am
The supreme court should be ruling on this student loan issue this month, right?
The supreme court should be ruling on this student loan issue this month, right?
Or today. They said Biden needs Congressional approval to cancel that debt, try again buster.
iris lilies
6-30-23, 11:26am
Or today. They said Biden needs Congressional approval to cancel that debt, try again buster.
Gosh, I guess so! Well, President Biden probably will find some other way to allow student loan holders to get off Scott free.
I was surprised to hear the Supreme Court’s decision about the illegality of affirmative action in college admissions. I’m shocked to know that such discrimination is unconstitutional! This court found it so!
I guess those students all just need to go out and find a sugar daddy, the way supreme court justices do.
I was surprised to hear the Supreme Court’s decision about the illegality of affirmative action in college admissions. I’m shocked to know that such discrimination is unconstitutional! This court found it so!
Yep, as the Babylon Bee pointed out, Democrats are devastated to learn that the Supremes have banned racism.https://babylonbee.com/news/democrats-devastated-as-supreme-court-bans-racism/
I guess those students all just need to go out and find a sugar daddy, the way supreme court justices do.
It’s always frustrating when a smear campaign doesn’t gain much traction.
iris lilies
6-30-23, 2:43pm
Yep, as the Babylon Bee pointed out, Democrats are devastated to learn that the Supremes have banned racism.https://babylonbee.com/news/democrats-devastated-as-supreme-court-bans-racism/
Well, sure they are devastated, how will they raise funds if the isms disappear?
It’s always frustrating when a smear campaign doesn’t gain much traction.
We’re not talking about hunter biden.
We’re not talking about hunter biden.
He seems to have gotten the friends and family discount from the DOJ.
Well, sure they are devastated, how will they raise funds if the isms disappear?
Not sure but I'm certain they'll think of something. Having the Supremes take the last vestiges of government mandated systemic racism off the table will force them to get creative.
He seems to have gotten the friends and family discount from the DOJ.
Lol. Only republicans actually believe that. Most first time tax violators aren’t treated as severely as he was. But whatever. Republicans also think that senators who participate in a coup attempt to keep a shitbag president in charge of the country is no big deal. Apparently that is Republican style these days.
And these modern day republicans also think that Supreme Court justices should be able to go on as many all expense paid vacations as they want. And then wonder why the rest of us think they are a bunch of clowns. But by all means LDAHL live your full retired clown life.
flowerseverywhere
7-1-23, 6:02am
Hopefully we can start to see fewer wide reaching executive orders in the future. Student loan forgiveness was wildly unpopular in many circles. For instance, many people who worked second jobs or lived at home to pay them off, or worked themselves through school or even never had a chance to pursue education beyond high school were against it. During shutdown, businesses were begging for help. When you have enormous loans, getting a second job at target or Wal-Mart is not going to kill you. Many of my retired friends had kids move home and worked remotely, giving up apartments, driving and used to money to pay off loans. Is it easy? No. But life is not easy.
If you look at student loan advertisements today, they certainly paint a rosy picture. They say things like after grants, scholarships and government aid you and your parents can borrow money for food, housing, transportation and living expenses. There is a total disconnect from the reality of paying off these loans while starting off in a new job, plus paying for living and transportation expenses in the future while paying them off. it seems predatory to me.
The media paints such a picture of life that is simply unattainable. From groups of young well dressed thin people at bars eating blooming onions and drinking beer after work, driving fancy new cars, and living in beautiful well furnished houses. News flash, if you have enormous student loans forget about it.
We have real problems in this country, like immigration, healthcare, infrastructure and housing. But I don't see what can be fixed by executive orders or monetary relief for small groups. Here in FL for instance, the house insurance industry is a mess. But you cannot expect to live in the line of hurricanes and have State or federal relief to be much help. The well has dried up through wasteful and irresponsible spending personally and by government at every level.
Lol. Only republicans actually believe that. Most first time tax violators aren’t treated as severely as he was. But whatever. Republicans also think that senators who participate in a coup attempt to keep a shitbag president in charge of the country is no big deal. Apparently that is Republican style these days.
And these modern day republicans also think that Supreme Court justices should be able to go on as many all expense paid vacations as they want. And then wonder why the rest of us think they are a bunch of clowns. But by all means LDAHL live your full retired clown life.
I’m not sure you or I or Trump Jr. would have been able to stroll away from felony gun charges. Although Hunter will need to sell a few more paintings to his fans to pay his legal team.
I really do think my retired clown life is pretty great. And I don’t even have the decency to feel bad about it.
I’m not sure you or I or Trump Jr. would have been able to stroll away from felony gun charges. Although Hunter will need to sell a few more paintings to his fans to pay his legal team.
The particular one he was charged with is rarely prosecuted. Like many of the zillions of gun laws we have.
I’m not sure you or I or Trump Jr. would have been able to stroll away from felony gun charges. Although Hunter will need to sell a few more paintings to his fans to pay his legal team.
I really do think my retired clown life is pretty great. And I don’t even have the decency to feel bad about it.
You’ve made it quite clear that you don’t give a ****. And sadly you seem proud about that. All I can do is shrug my shoulders.
https://hotair.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Fz6RG-fX0AAf0jz-540x730.jpeg
flowerseverywhere
7-3-23, 8:02pm
https://hotair.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Fz6RG-fX0AAf0jz-540x730.jpeg
I think many of these loans were downright unethical. Many many17-18 year olds never had anyone teach them about money. They come from families where no one went post high school to continue their education. Many families have zero in savings. They were sold a rosy deal. Look at the Sallie mae website, and it looks like they will give you money for books, living, school and transportation expenses. Don't you think the lenders have any culpability? why in the world did they shovel money out with no collateral for multiple years?
The weird thing about the student loan case that the court just decided is that the plaintiff didn't have standing, and hadn't been wronged, yet the court heard the case anyway and decided in their favor. I wonder what sort of legal theory was required to justify that.
Don't you think the lenders have any culpability? why in the world did they shovel money out with no collateral for multiple years?As I understand it, most student loans are secured by the government, making collateral un-necessary from a lender perspective. I'm not sure it's a lender's responsibility to protect borrowers from government's largesse.
flowerseverywhere
7-5-23, 10:03am
As I understand it, most student loans are secured by the government, making collateral un-necessary from a lender perspective. I'm not sure it's a lender's responsibility to protect borrowers from government's largesse.
I was not for student loan forgiveness. So the government who guaranteed the loans with no collateral, no guarantee students could pay them back and have basic living expenses, should we just let those people never be able to afford to have children, buy a house or get out from a mountain of debt no matter how hard they work?
I certainly don't have a good answer but it seems like this debt was accrued through many administrations and now, suddenly, the bottom has fallen out.
The weird thing about the student loan case that the court just decided is that the plaintiff didn't have standing, and hadn't been wronged, yet the court heard the case anyway and decided in their favor. I wonder what sort of legal theory was required to justify that.
The Eighth Circuit Court found otherwise when they overruled the original court’s denial of standing to Missouri.
I think many of these loans were downright unethical. Many many17-18 year olds never had anyone teach them about money. They come from families where no one went post high school to continue their education. Many families have zero in savings. They were sold a rosy deal. Look at the Sallie mae website, and it looks like they will give you money for books, living, school and transportation expenses. Don't you think the lenders have any culpability? why in the world did they shovel money out with no collateral for multiple years?
When I was in college in the late 80s, I had a roommate who got student loans and she used it for living expenses.
early morning
7-5-23, 1:55pm
Just our particular case - Our second child has huge loans and no degree, due to some mental health issues that really came out during their time at college. Although they were not passing many classes, they were able, against our advice and often without our knowledge, to keep racking up debt to stay in school. They were an adult, did not need our approval, and were not truly, deeply, cognizant of this impact on their future. 10+ years later, they have paid back almost nothing, have huge difficulties holding any sort of job, can afford little to no therapy or general health care, and are back living here with us. We try to cover as much dental/health care as we can, and try to hook them up with resources. They try, also, and it's so hard to see the toll this takes. I am pushing them to see if they can get this debt removed via bankruptcy. I know that in some cases, this can still be done, but is much harder. However, my cousin, who is quite healthy and able to work, has several times run up large consumer debt, purchased a new car, quit job in fit of pique, then has declared bankruptcy, keeping all items including car, with all debt removed. Three times, over the past 35 years. Makes me sick to my stomach, and yes, we all DO pay for that. I'd rather pay for the students that are truly having problems making payments than an entitled jerk who wants new stuff without paying for it. BTW, cousin moved to FLA with her family, and told us on their last visit that they are buying a house, which they will be able to keep, free, if they "have" to declare bankruptcy again. I hope they are wrong about that.
I think that's my main gripe about this - that unlike other unsecured loans, it's really hard to get out from under student loans in a bankruptcy situation. (and if a car is collateral for its own car loan, how on earth do people get to keep cars in bankruptcy? Lots I don't know/understand here....)
Early morning: I found this excellent discussion of bankruptcy as it affects student loans. I think it will give you some structure to work with and the mental health issues discussed towards the bottom may apply. See how much paperwork you can gather and what mental health evaluations are available and see if there is probono legal aid available where you are for him. https://www.investopedia.com/how-to-file-student-loan-bankruptcy-4772237#:~:text=To%20file%20for%20student%20loan%2 0bankruptcy%2C%20you%20will%20first%20need,loan%20 would%20cause%20undue%20hardship.
littlebittybobby
7-5-23, 7:07pm
Okay---as long as The Supremes can legislate against discounts of any kind, they need to forbid offering coupons and quantity discounts or even rebates---ESPECIALLY rebates---on purchases of consumer services. Also, they can include along with that any volatility in the prices of stock on the exchanges. The stocks must ALWAYS remain at or incrementally above the price paid. Never less. See? I believe you'll find quite a few people that would support that public policy mandated by the U.S. House of Supremes. Hope that helps you some. Edited to add: As long as they're putting a stop to freebies, they need ta take it a step further by abolishing cash handouts ta sodbusters from the USDA, and the VA needs to cease all the gimmies to veterans. No more free hairtcuts, no more va hospitals, no more va rest homes, no more pensions. Get them all off the gravy train. Same with congerss---no more gravy for them, either. If they need money, they can get out and WORK, mowing lawns or washing dishes, or delivering papers, till they get enough $$$ to buy their own bank or some other business. Steada being coddled like those crybaby college kids who are mad cause they're paying for their useless degree in economics or political science, several times over. But yeah---I got more ideas on how to cut the fat outta big gummint, by getting the slackers to pay their own way. Stay tuned. Thankk mee.
early morning
7-5-23, 9:55pm
Thank you sweetana3, that is helpful info. they WANT to repay and are resisting my attempts to check out bankruptcy, and in the end, it's not my decision. However, they need to know what options they have.
flowerseverywhere
7-5-23, 10:05pm
BTW, cousin moved to FLA with her family, and told us on their last visit that they are buying a house, which they will be able to keep, free, if they "have" to declare bankruptcy again. I hope they are wrong about that.
I think that's my main gripe about this - that unlike other unsecured loans, it's really hard to get out from under student loans in a bankruptcy situation. (and if a car is collateral for its own car loan, how on earth do people get to keep cars in bankruptcy? Lots I don't know/understand here....)
Chapter seven in Florida has residency requirements (like more than two years) and if approved, you get to keep your house within certain parameters. Because of the explosion in house prices here, many of my friends are living in very expensive paid off houses which would be untouchable as I understand it. Medical bills are the cause of close to half of bankruptcies from what I could find , as well as divorce, job loss.
I can understand that as DH had over a million in bills last year during his cancer treatment. We paid almost nothing out of pocket however we have Medicare advantage. of course that would put lots of people under, even if they negotiated it down .
I'm sorry for your child.
The Eighth Circuit Court found otherwise when they overruled the original court’s denial of standing to Missouri.
‘Ll have to go read how they came up with that decision since the loan corporation was set up as a distinct entity that the state wouldn’t be legally responsible for financially. On the surface it strikes me as dumb as the idea that if you are a farmer growing wheat to feed your cows for personal purposes it is a violation of the interstate commerce clause.
iris lilies
10-11-25, 4:37pm
I ran across this information as I was looking into student loan forgiveness. Why didn’t I realize that those student loans that Joe Biden threatened to forgive actually got forgiven? To the tune of $180 billion. ChatGPT gave me this summary below. So Joe Biden was not able to forgive loans on a “ large scale” plan his meager efforts forgave only $180 billion.
$180 billion. And this isn’t “ large scale?”
This country has gone mad.
but I guess my real point in necroposting is to inquire: am I the only one who didn’t understand that billions in student loans were actually forgiven? I remember there was the tango with Biden wanting to use the Heroes Act to forgive loans and the Supreme Court told him that he could not do that. But there were apparently other kinds of loans he had the executive power to forgive, so he did.
Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) – for government/nonprofit workers.
Income-Driven Repayment (IDR) account adjustments – correcting years of servicer miscounts.
Borrower Defense to Repayment – canceling loans for students defrauded by colleges.
Disability discharges – canceling for borrowers who are totally and permanently disabled.
SAVE plan – new income-based plan with automatic forgiveness for small balances.
Those programs don’t require new legislation, so they survived court challenges. That’s how he reached over $180 billion forgiven even though the Supreme Court blocked his large-scale plan.
Those programs don’t require new legislation, so they survived court challenges. That’s how he reached over $180 billion forgiven even though the Supreme Court blocked his large-scale plan.
And they still couldn't muster enough votes to win the last election? Pikers!
iris lilies
10-11-25, 5:34pm
And they still couldn't muster enough votes to win the last election? Pikers!
haha, yep. What’s the point of adding to the deficit to buy votes if it doesn’t actually buy votes? Rhetorical, no response needed.But clearly better campaigning is needed.
frugal-one
10-11-25, 5:43pm
We can only hope people wake up and fight against the current autocratic dictator wannabe (or should I say twice impeached felon)? Many fools did not vote last time
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