View Full Version : natural gas
My AC had some odd behavior lately and I had the local HVAC place out for a service call. If it wasn't predictable, my 15 year old furnace and AC were determined to be on their last leg and I could either replace before there are big problems or use until they die. The HVAC person talked about how new construction in a lot of regional places and also maybe a state or two are not allowing permits for natural gas supplies these days, but will use electric and heat pumps instead for home heating. I suppose there are fuel efficiency and pollution contribution studies that claim this is the wave of the future and I sort of get it, but it's a paradigm shift of thinking.
It would seem like part of the equation should include more energy efficient construction in general, like using passive solar, smaller living spaces, better insulation materials, better use of thermal mass, etc, From my bit of research, building heating is probably in the top three or five contributors to greenhouse emissions and natural gas is an easy target. And I'm undecided about the gas stove issues and if it's a green feel good thing, but they were on sale at Home Depot the other day.
On a slightly different note, my neighbors are still using gas yard care tools, like lawn mowers. If a person can afford a little bit more, the state of the art battery tools are about as good for residential yards. Another one of those paradigm shifts. Weekends get noisy in my suburban hood.
I try to avoid natural gas, but I've had my eye on a gas-powered condo for awhile. >:(
My neighbor has an electric mower, and it's a breath of fresh air, literally. Lordy how I hate unnecessary noise and pollution.
ApatheticNoMore
6-23-23, 1:35am
I got an induction burner and a toaster oven and so mostly cook with those unless I have to bake something quite large or use many burners, so I'm largely cooking with electric. I'm still hooked up to natural gas for water heating etc., I don't control that.
So an electric stove, sure, but you really should do the research on if you want to go with an induction stove or just an old fashioned (non-induction) electric stove. These are not the same. And make sure pans work if it's induction or buy new ones, I did acquire some new pans. Almost all pans ACTUALLY DO work on induction, so you may not need any, but I was fond of copper bottom pans and they don't, I had to replace them.
catherine
6-23-23, 10:09am
It would seem like part of the equation should include more energy efficient construction in general, like using passive solar, smaller living spaces, better insulation materials, better use of thermal mass, etc, From my bit of research, building heating is probably in the top three or five contributors to greenhouse emissions and natural gas is an easy target. And I'm undecided about the gas stove issues and if it's a green feel good thing, but they were on sale at Home Depot the other day.
Absolutely, and that's why a couple of the environmental orgs I'm part of in VT are protesting the "Clean Heat Standard" bill. It supposedly supports reduction in greenhouse gas emissions in alignment with national goals, but in reality it ignores the more common-sense green options you mentioned in favor of more construction, more crap in the landfill, and all at the expense of the VT taxpayers who will be forced to purchase "green" technologies. (That all being said, I love my heat pump).
iris lilies
6-23-23, 12:30pm
So far our heat pump seems to be keeping our sunroom cool up to high 80s F.. That’s all the heat we’ve had so far. The saving grace is at the sunroom faces east, not west. West would be much harder to keep cool. It is also very quiet, whereas our big air conditioning system makes noise.
If people have functioning gas lawn/yard car equipment, I doubt they will be replacing it right now.
I think the natural gas thing is ridiculous. Electricity is more expensive to heat with. And I really wonder how well the heat pumps work in colder climates such as the northeast and the Midwest. People in areas with frequent power outages like gas stoves as they can use them when the power is out.
Expecting people with functioning appliances and yard equipment to replace them while the items are still working won’t go very far in the current economy.
Electricity isn't particularly expensive in the PNW, but I'd pay extra for it if I had to.
And I really wonder how well the heat pumps work in colder climates such as the northeast and the Midwest. People in areas with frequent power outages like gas stoves as they can use them when the power is out.
Expecting people with functioning appliances and yard equipment to replace them while the items are still working won’t go very far in the current economy.
I used my heat pump all winter long in Northwest Vermont and it was great. I do have a supplementary energy source--my wood stove, but we used it because we wanted to, not because we had to. I definitely double-teamed the pump and the wood stove the weekend it was 22 below, so I can't really say whether or not I could have gone without the wood stove without some duress, but I know the heat pump technology continues to improve.
However, I do object to laws that force people to ditch their existing appliances, for economic reasons as well as environmental ones.
I do think that eventually--as in 10 years--we will be pretty much free of fossil fuels. Not completely, but well on our way.
If people have functioning gas lawn/yard car equipment, I doubt they will be replacing it right now.
I think the natural gas thing is ridiculous. Electricity is more expensive to heat with. And I really wonder how well the heat pumps work in colder climates such as the northeast and the Midwest. People in areas with frequent power outages like gas stoves as they can use them when the power is out.
Expecting people with functioning appliances and yard equipment to replace them while the items are still working won’t go very far in the current economy.
I've not seen figures comparing a typical heat pump with electric to traditional natural gas in a temperate climate, but sure, a straight across comparison of electric heat without a heat pump to natural gas is probably no contest. I agree that people are going to be reluctant to give up a functioning gas mower or gas F-150, or home heating without incentives. Until all those fossil fuel run conveniences wear out and have viable non gas alternatives, we're probably stuck some fossil fuel use for decades. The gas stove issue seems minor but made a big deal by some sort of media hype. There are a lot bigger fish to fry, it seems.
I have wondered how the price of oil or natural gas will be affected as we're making the transition away from fossil fuels, and even how that will affect the global balance of power.
ToomuchStuff
6-23-23, 11:32pm
The electric lawn mowers, really need to be looked at carefully. On the lower end (push mowers), you need to look at the construction and check on parts availability. I've seen one video where they had a three month old lawn mower, that the mounting part for the blade broke (ever go over a stick in the yard) and the parts were not available. Different story with gas.
On the high end, my local equipment dealer (that isn't a big box store), has stayed away from the electric, because a $3800 zero turn, a replacement battery was $3000. It made no viable sense at this point.
I've had electric push mowers for many years without problems. Last year I replaced my first since technology has improved over the years and they are lighter and more powerful. I took the old one to Goodwill and they were happy to get it. I'm not sure what item your equipment dealer is talking about, but electric mowers are as common as gas at the local big box and only slightly more expensive, depending on brand and features. Not having to mess with gas and the fumes is worth the extra hundred bucks or so more to me. I also have an electric snow blower. It's quite functional, but in this case probably not as powerful as gas in big snows, like over a foot. I bought it to use during a surgery recovery and it did fine, but as long as I'm healthy would just as soon shovel.
I also have a battery powered electric weed eater, hedge trimmer, and leaf blower. They all do the job fine for my residential house and none have had problems. They are probably not suitable for commercial jobs. Just like cars I imagine the batteries do wear out and can be expensive. I've just not had that happen so far.
I did the following calculation before deciding to switch to a heat pump. In an average winter month we use about 50-55 therms of gas for the furnace. That's 5,000,000-5,500,000 btus, but since our furnace was 45 years old I multiplied that by 60%, to get 3,000,000-3,3000,000 of actual heat in hour house. We pay $2.36/therm currently so $118-$129/month.
The heat pump we were considering (now own) is an 18 efficiency 3 ton unit. 3 tons is 36,000 btu's. A 10 efficiency would mean it uses 1 kw for 1,000 btu's. 18 efficiency means divide that number by 1.8. Our unit will use 3.6/1.8 kw=2kwh to produce 36,000 btus. Dividing 3,000,000-3,300,000 by 36,000 I estimated we would run the new heat pump 83-91 hours/month on average. We pay $.41 (all in) for one kwh of electricity. If my calculations are accurate we should have dramatically lower heating bills in the winter. Even a high efficiency (we got a quote for 95% efficient) gas furnace would still be more expensive to run than the heat pump will.
The question of what's better for the environment nets out as follows. A high efficiency natural gas power plant is 60% efficient. One therm of natural gas converts to 29 kwh of electricity at 100% efficiency. So the power plant produces maybe 18kwh of electricity per therm. That's enough to run our heat pump 9 hours so it would take roughly 10 therms of gas to make enough electricity to run the heat pump for an equal amount of heat as we would get for 34 therms of gas in a high efficiency furnace. Even if the power plant is older and only 25% efficient instead of 60% efficient it would still only take 25ish therms of gas to make the electricity.
For us the electric plant efficiency is purely hypothetical since 100% of PGE's power generation is renewable, hydro and nuclear.
That's pretty interesting jp1. The bit of follow up I did makes me think a heat pump would be worth looking into, seeing as how my AC and furnace are approaching their demise. There are quite a few variables to consider.
Definitely worth at least looking into, Rogar. jp, thanks for that analysis.. Interesting!
The morning news here had a feature about Home Depot’s plan to have 80 percent of their residential yard tools electric by 2028. It does seem like the electric transition is getting some mainstream traction.
The morning news here had a feature about Home Depot’s plan to have 80 percent of their residential yard tools electric by 2028. It does seem like the electric transition is getting some mainstream traction.
Prayers have been answered! I spend hours each summer fantasizing about vaporizing my noisy grass-worshipping neighbors and/or their tools.
catherine
6-26-23, 11:47am
I'm dying to get an electric mower. DH swears by his riding mower for the large lawn in front, much of which we share with neighbors. But our little patch of "living yard" is small and carved out with stuff--gardens, firepit, table and chairs, etc, etc, and we use an old regular push gas mower for that. However, it's wonky--you have to start it a certain way and stop it a certain way because it's so old. I was thinking of getting an electric one that I could actually use when I want to (I have to ask DH to start the gas mower).
They run about 250-300 for the size I would need. I haven't asked DH because I'm sure he'll tell me in his Scottish/American accent that the gas one is "Fine, just fine." And he's the family lawn master, so I'll have to go with whatever he says.
A friend of mine lives in a house on a typical 1/8 acre 50’s suburban lot in Southern California. He bought a battery mower a few years ago and absolutely loves it. So much easier to use, maintain and store (it folds up and just has a small rectangle footprint) than the old gas mower he had for decades.
Battery technology has come a long way since I first investigated electric tools and appliances. I bought my first electric lawn mower over 30 years ago, along with a 150 foot extension cord so that it could reach the furthest point of my yard. Around that same time I got an electric chainsaw which also had to be plugged into an outlet in order to work.
Once the appropriate batteries became more powerful and cost effective, cords on those types of appliances went away. Today I have battery operated blowers, trimmers, power tools and chainsaws which not only work very well, but are convenient to use.
I still have a gas powered lawn tractor which I'll probably keep forever as long as it remains reliable, as well as a gas powered push mower which I'm open to replacing with a battery operated version someday. Now that I'm a senior citizen I prefer to ride while servicing my 3/4 acre yard, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
happystuff
6-26-23, 3:57pm
We are the same as Alan... have battery mower, blower, trimmer and even the same brand of hand tools! As each came with a battery (mower came with two), we have a several batteries that will all operate any of the above. It's worked out well.
Ok, so this thread has caused me to go and spend money, which is probably not the point of this board overall but there it is. When we first bought this townhouse a friend gave as a no longer needed string trimmer because I really wanted a patch of grass in our backyard and a full on lawnmower seemed excessive. (our backyard is roughly 25x25 and the patch of grass we put in is 6x10ish. I just really wanted at least a little bit of green) The free trimmer was 12 years old and came with 2 rechargeable NiMH batteries. The batteries didn't hold charge very well and although new non-OED lithium replacements were available chargers for the lithium replacements weren't. I wasn't comfortable with the idea of charging lithium batteries with chargers not designed for them so we gave the trimmer to Goodwill and bought a new Black & Decker trimmer. Since the new trimmer was awesome I followed up that purchase with a B&D drill that uses the same battery. Now I am in the middle of a couple of projects that require cutting a big piece of plywood into various pieces so today I looked and I can get a fairly small B&D circular saw that uses the same battery. I found a deal on amazon to get the saw, another drill, plus one battery, for $77, a really great price for all that. We don't specifically need the extra drill but it will definitely get used when we have projects that require both a drill and a screw driver at the same time since switching back and forth from a drill bit to a screw driver head takes a lot of time if done repeatedly. I suppose the argument can be made that spending money on a tool that will get used routinely and which saves me time is a reasonable part of simplifying my life...
I got a decent-grade Stihl electric chainsaw a few years back, and love it. It's good for 90% of my daily chainsawing needs. I still have the big beastly gas chainsaws, but they don't get a lot of use.
When I got it, I was wed to their battery/charger system, and I ended up getting the string-trimmer and the blower for it.
Recently, I got the larger Stihl Kombi-system head, which takes the same batteries. I've happily been using the pruning saw, scythe, hedge trimmer, and string trimmer attachments for this.
I love not having to maintain a lot of little gas engines for these sorts of tools. With two batteries and the decent charger, one battery recharges in about the time it takes me to discharge the first battery when working, so if I have access to AC power I don't have to fuss.
I don't have access to natural gas here. I could go with propane, but that would involve installing a tank, and dealing with a supplier, and plumbing the propane lines to useful places.
I mostly cook with electricity, or on an outside propane grill, or charcoal-fired hibachis. I've been tempted to install a propane cooktop, but haven't gotten over the "I need to deal with getting propane up here" issue for ~25 years, so I suspect I won't overcome that inertia.
The house is heated with a combination of an electric hot water hydronic heating system, and two fine woodstoves. In the winter time, it is prudent here to have an off-grid heating solution, as we can go for days without power in some of our storms. So I don't imagine giving up my woodstoves anytime soon.
I investigated, when our local power cooperative was providing some incentives, installing minisplit heat pumps, but the cost was fairly significant. The virtue would be some air conditioning capability, and some energy efficiency, but at a cost of > $20K, and that was pre-Covid.
My electric power here comes from primarily renewable sources. Cost is ~ 11cents/Kwh. I have 35Kw of solar production capability which reduces my power bill to nothing for ~6 months of the year. If I heat with all-electric in the colder months, I'm looking at $500+/month electric bills. Using the woodstove as the primary heat during those months reduces the cost to about $250 in the winter months.
I burn almost exclusively wood that I harvest myself, so the cost of the wood is perhaps better viewed as "a cheap gym membership".
My corded electric chain saw is on the replacement list. I have thought the battery powered chain saws were not powerful enough until fairly recently. I have a small collection of hand me down hand tools. A couple of drill braces and bits, a small collection of hand saws, a collection of tin snips. I've wondered when the advent of power tools became common for home construction? Maybe the later 1920's or early 30's? Carpentry in the pre power tool days must have required a more intensive set of building skills.
iris lilies
6-27-23, 10:01am
Testing…
littlebittybobby
6-27-23, 12:07pm
Fix your nat gas furnace. Consumerism is the American way, unfortunately. So yeah--the cool people have to have the latest thing. Either that, or make purchases in response to scare tactics. So yeah--fix your gas furnace. Save money on utilities by turning off your Tee-Vee. Hope that helps you some. Edited to add: Guess what? I have three(3) reciprocating saws--two are genuine corded sawzalls, and one is a battery-opp HF brand. But yeah---the batt opp is handy, for a brief use where you don't want to drag out an extension cord or in remote areas where it's not feasible. Plus--fer at the wreckin' yard---it's jam handy. Like--I cut a chunk o' floor out of a Suburban & cut the radiator support tie bar outta that van and a couple chunks of good metal off the bed of a trunk. And stuff like that. But--don't be stopped carrying one in your car; it will make a cop very suspicious, due to their usage in convertor theft. But the corded sawzalls, one 20+ years old and the other 35+ and repaired, are what I use for stuff that requires extended usage. See? But yeah--what you utilize should not be an ideological issue; it's just what is most practical for the job at hand. See? If I wanted to make a statement, of COURSE I'd buy a nice, new solar-powered Subbbarroo, sticker it out, and save the world. Yup. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
When I was looking into switching to a heat pump I watched a bunch of videos on youtube. This one wasn't especially helpful but it was entertaining. Dude has a nearly 50 year old central A/C unit that he wanted fixed. A new unit would probably pay for itself in reduced electric bills in just a couple of years. This commenter made me laugh though: "New house, new boat and new ac, 74 must have been a great year!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsHg5ElD-bQ
I think going all electric would definitely be safer than natural gas. I known a few people who had fires that were natural gas related somehow. The totally preventable ones were the houses where flammable stuff like paint and the like were stored too close to the water heater.
I think going all electric would definitely be safer than natural gas. I known a few people who had fires that were natural gas related somehow.
I have fought house fires that were electric-related, and house fires that were propane-related.
It's a darned bit easier to cut the power mains of the building than to deal with the propane tank/gas line, once things get "sporty".
Just recently the news has featured a proposal for the Denver metro area to ban the sales of residential gas lawn equipment starting 2025. You can keep what you have or go out of town to buy it. Further, public entities like schools and cities would not be allowed to run gas maintenance equipment in the summer months, and then in 2026 commercial landscape business would have the same restrictions. It still needs some approvals, but that covers a lot. I don't think there is much on the market in the line of commercial sized equipment like all that, but it seems like a growing market.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.