View Full Version : Hawaii fire/land grab
flowerseverywhere
8-17-23, 6:53am
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194351587/hawaii-governor-vows-to-block-land-grabs-as-fire-ravaged-maui-rebuilds
This may be a better for the political thread, but this struck me as what has been happening for years all over the country. The world for that matter.
Housing becomes more and more unaffordable and people who have lived for generations in an area become no longer able to afford to live there. Many of us have been to this exact area and can certainly understand the allure of living there. A quandary indeed.
That is sickening....
I keep wondering, as I see neighborhoods near me climbing in value that is unattainable for most people--where are people getting this money?? How can so many people afford million dollar homes? How can an average younger person trying to get their first home come up with tens of thousands of dollars for a down payment and then afford monthly payments upwards of $4000-$5000??
It appears to me that it is the widening gap between the haves and the have-nots... this is when life is a Monopoly game--you see that there are enough people with properties on Boardwalk and Park Place to put you in a precarious position on the game board. Unfettered capitalism at its best. Rising tides submerging the small boats--not lifting them up.
I hope the governor of Hawaii sticks to his guns to prevent these seedy attempts at land grabs.
Here’s the thing though - so if the govt takes the land to prevent outsiders from buying it, the govt is taking private land. What if a family wants to leave the island and sell their land? Is the govt going to pay them for it or not?
It seems a lot of people were renters from what I’ve read. A lot of the old plantations houses were split into apartments.
sweetana3
8-17-23, 10:07am
There are so many what ifs and unintended consequences in all this. Same issues came up for New Orleans.
Example: What if the "state" wants a large tract for affordable housing but one lot in the middle is needed for one family to rebuild their home or compund? Is it "fair" to penalize the one family for the good of all? Or what if they need it for commercial purposes?
What if a family or business owner has ideas on what to do to rebuild (and nothing will ever be the same), who is going to now tell them what others want them to do with their properties? It is the WHO but the property owner is going to make these decisions. My opinion is that most often the government is not the best source.
flowerseverywhere
8-17-23, 10:38am
Great points. Around me is not so much individual buyers, but companies buying homes and converting to apartments or short term rentals. It is very lucrative in many areas of the country. Many parcels get zoning changed from single family to large tall buildings. This happened around me. A plot of land with a house backed up to a residential area. it was rezoned to multi family and commercial. Large apartment buildings near the property lines hover over the regular houses. A shooting gallery, A big box store, gas station and large bank butt up to another residential area. the noise, Loss of privacy and decline in property values and decrease in quality of life followed.
For the past decade or so, properties on my island have been being snapped up by off-island purchasers. Prices are through the roof, and it has been pushing out long-time locals. There is very little housing now available at a sane price for purchase or rent.
This is the problem with places that the entire rest of the world wants to own a part of, or at least visit. The market demand is worldwide, but the supply is very local and limited.
The Bailiwick of Jersey, one of the Channel Islands, solves this by not allowing non-locals to purchase. But they are their own government and can be "direct" about solving the problem.
Catherine, how much of the people moving into your area are retirees or people who work remotely for a job far away. As someone who lives in a very high cost of living area and gets paid accordingly we will quite possibly be those rich Californians that retire elsewhere and drive up prices with our California perspective on what real estate costs since almost anywhere else will seem cheap to us.
iris lilies
8-17-23, 4:26pm
In my tiny town the complaint is there are no places to rent because outsiders buy the properties and turn them into Airbnb properties. I can’t help but think the place is saturated with Air bnb here, but maybe not.
Another complaint is that there’s nothing to rent, but when there IS something to rent, it is not advertised because this is an insular town, and everything is word of mouth.
iris lilies
8-17-23, 4:27pm
Catherine, how much of the people moving into your area are retirees or people who work remotely for a job far away. As someone who lives in a very high cost of living area and gets paid accordingly we will quite possibly be those rich Californians that retire elsewhere and drive up prices with our California perspective on what real estate costs since almost anywhere else will seem cheap to us.
hello, California exitus thing has been going on for decades. I remember when my California relative moved up to Oregon and they noted how Oregonians are not at all happy about it.
Interesting outlook:
https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/naka-nathaniel-here-are-the-deeper-truths-about-maui/
Another complaint is that there’s nothing to rent, but when there IS something to rent, it is not advertised because this is an insular town, and everything is word of mouth.
This is a problem here as well. We have a person who uses Facebook and telephone to try to get renters together with people with something to rent. It's all below-the-radar, as much of the housing available this way is substandard or "illegal". Also, many landlords are now afraid to advertise, as they usually get attacked by people complaining about the rent - generally people who have no idea of how much it costs the landlord here to even provide the place.
So, I just looked this moment, there are 4 advertised places for rent on the island:
- $870/month, 1 bedroom apartment, in a complex that is owned by our land trust and is only available to people who earn less than the income cutoff for the complex
- $600/month, 1 bedroom apartment, in a complex that is meant for seniors only, with income cutoffs as well
- $4500/month, 3 bedroom, no income limits. First/last/security deposit
- $7500/month, 5 bedroom, no income limits. First/last/security deposit.
The island now has about 6500 year-round residents, with the population more-than-doubling during 4-5 months of the year.
Median house sale this last year was ~$1.1 million. ~40 homes on the market right now, sales time seems to be hovering around 21 days.
hello, California exitus thing has been going on for decades. I remember when my California relative moved up to Oregon and they noted how Oregonians are not at all happy about it.
Yes. That’s exactly what I’m talking about although it seems to be picking up steam. Until the pandemic it was mostly retirees doing this. Now though formerly cheaper places like Tahoe (yes that’s still mostly California but it’s not commutable to any of the California metros) are being overrun by people that can work remote, pricing out all the tourism industry workers that make places like Tahoe function. The same is happening in places like Missoula with remote workers.
iris lilies
8-17-23, 9:39pm
Missoula! It’s hard to imagine Californians wanting to move there with that weather.
Interesting outlook:
https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/naka-nathaniel-here-are-the-deeper-truths-about-maui/
Wow. This quote resonates: “We have seen too many examples of luxury homeowners and wealthy people coming in here who like the place, but either they want to change it to what they think it should be, even though they came here because they liked the way it was."
Even here, which isn't quite the Martha's Vineyard of Vermont yet, the "new" people complain that there isn't any supermarket here. They have to go off the island to get a chain grocery store. But they knew there is no supermarket when they moved here. Most people don't want a supermarket. We don't. We're fine buying from the small family-run grocery stores and directly from local farmers.
The situation described in that article is terrible, and the long-time locals are right to be angry.
happystuff
8-18-23, 6:56am
Wow. This quote resonates: “We have seen too many examples of luxury homeowners and wealthy people coming in here who like the place, but either they want to change it to what they think it should be, even though they came here because they liked the way it was."
This is EXACTLY what happened to the area I live in! Nice farming area and then the developments started being built. New people voted other new people onto the town committee who wanted to "Remove the dumb farmers and get things done correctly". What a mess! Sad to say the area will never be the nice community area these folks originally wanted to live in.
happystuff
8-18-23, 6:57am
Wow. This quote resonates: “We have seen too many examples of luxury homeowners and wealthy people coming in here who like the place, but either they want to change it to what they think it should be, even though they came here because they liked the way it was."
This is EXACTLY what happened to the area I live in! Nice farming area and then the developments started being built. New people voted other new people onto the town committee who wanted to remove the "dumb farmers" and get things done "correctly". What a mess! Sad to say the area will never be the nice community area these folks originally wanted to live in.
Missoula! It’s hard to imagine Californians wanting to move there with that weather.
While I agree with you wholeheartedly apparently there are weird people who actually find winter to be enjoyable. In my experience they usually try to hide that weirdness by saying things like ‘I like living somewhere with four seasons.’
While I agree with you wholeheartedly apparently there are weird people who actually find winter to be enjoyable. In my experience they usually try to hide that weirdness by saying things like ‘I like living somewhere with four seasons.’
Ha, ha. I hear that a few times through the winter. I once talked with a guy who relocated from San Diego and said how boring the lack of seasons were there. I think I could pick Missoula over quite a few places in California, not purely weather related. There are days near the end of summer when you get into the dog days and it's the upper 90's day after day with not much of a breeze or clouds and I dream about a snow day.
Catherine, how much of the people moving into your area are retirees or people who work remotely for a job far away. As someone who lives in a very high cost of living area and gets paid accordingly we will quite possibly be those rich Californians that retire elsewhere and drive up prices with our California perspective on what real estate costs since almost anywhere else will seem cheap to us.
Good point--I don't know who they are. I on't mix with their kind ;) Overall in the NE, I think you are right--I think of that lovely town, Ocean Grove on the Jersey Shore, that I aspired to live in once, and could have afforded, but the COVID migration out of NY ruined that idea. The Jersey shore is untouchable. My newest neighbors up here are from there, and they recently sol their house, and the owner said that she was "embarrassed" about how much her house sold for it was so much.
Up here in my town, homes and lots are snapped up immediately--often within 24-48 hours, but overall within a month. Doesn't matter what condition. Waterfront lots in particular are being populated with million dollar + homes. Inventory is very low. It used to be a sleepy, older population, but now younger people are looking to live up here. I think most people moving into Vermont are from the Northeast states--New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts.
Teacher Terry
8-18-23, 10:31am
Yes. That’s exactly what I’m talking about although it seems to be picking up steam. Until the pandemic it was mostly retirees doing this. Now though formerly cheaper places like Tahoe (yes that’s still mostly California but it’s not commutable to any of the California metros) are being overrun by people that can work remote, pricing out all the tourism industry workers that make places like Tahoe function. The same is happening in places like Missoula with remote workers.
In the 26 years that I’ve been in Reno Tahoe has never been affordable. People working at the ski resorts were often brought in from other countries and provided housing by the resorts. When I was job hunting all those years ago I never considered California because of the COL in relation to what I would earn. I like a mild 4 seasons and don’t want summer year round but that doesn’t mean I want a Wisconsin type of winter.
I doubt I would enjoy a one-note climate, and our seasons are all pretty mild. I get tired of summer after about a month; I'm so ready for Fall.
Missoula! It’s hard to imagine Californians wanting to move there with that weather.
Montana was one of the finalists in my "where to move" contest ~25 years ago.
It's ruined now, all the Californians moved there :-)
iris lilies
8-18-23, 2:55pm
Montana was one of the finalists in my "where to move" contest ~25 years ago.
It's ruined now, all the Californians moved there :-)
“Not moving north of interstate 80” Iris chants to herself even though I am mightily attracted to Yankee land, the northeast.
Is there any place the Californians haven’t ruined? In my city neighborhood the highest price paid per sq ft was from a San Francisco buyer. She’s at the head of NPR here. All that money and still she got formica countertops in the kitchen.
All that money and still she got formica countertops in the kitchen.
I moved into this house in 1999. It was built in 1987. I still have the amazing original wacky melamine(?) laminate countertops and oak cabinetry. I believe Home Depot was having a sale on this stuff in 1987, several of the other homes in my neighborhood have identical kitchen features.
I'm particularly proud of the original vintage flooring, which is some sort of demented polka-dotted indoor-outdoor carpet.
I was going to redo the kitchen "very soon" when I first moved in, but, well, you know how life is.
Last summer I got a market study done by my Realtor(R) for the property, and the value was north of $2 million for this "palace". It's gone up ~8% over the past year. The house is ~4500 sq. ft., not including garage, current construction costs for mid-level quality here is running > $1000/sq. ft. Not including the land and various insane permitting requirements and utility connection fees and septic. Which is why any existing structure sells almost as soon as it hits the market.
I can't imagine how much it will cost those folks in Hawaii to rebuild, it's even more expensive there to build, as I hear.
https://i.imgur.com/6n81JYj.png
iris lilies
8-18-23, 3:18pm
I prefer my (former) 1941 kitchen, even though the cabinets were cheap even for that time, to yours, bae. But neither sparks joy.
Now I have two new kitchens that do indeed spark joy, and every day I marvel about the beautiful materials and nice workmanship.
I prefer my (former) 1941 kitchen, even though the cabinets were cheap even for that time, to yours, bae. But it is not spark joy.
Ya, this stuff is horrible. My boat has far nicer materials in the galley.
But, those counters were great for the kids to do art and school stuff on, and the materials have held up. I keep meaning to gut it "any day now", but there's always something more useful/timely to waste my efforts on.
My grandfather, when he reached a certain age, developed a saying, concerning upgrades to his home: "that's the next guy's problem", and I'm coming to realize his wisdom.
To be fair, I had just totally restored the kitchen in my 1910 Sears Craftsman cottage I was living in in California, right before I moved up here. I was living in the cottage during the several years of complete restoration of the entire home. Never again! The fuss and stress was insane.
I'll likely end up doing something about the kitchen, flooring, and bathrooms here, and repaint the interior, once my mother passes away, as I can move into that house for the duration of the remodeling. Of course, her place needs a similar renovation.
You just can't win.
We lived in our Brady Bunch house in NJ complete with shag rugs and metallic wallpaper well past its prime. Then, over the course of the 90s and early 2000s we proudly did some cosmetic updates. Now my kids lust for mid-century modern, including the "ugly" avocado and harvest gold decor. So you might as well keep what you have--it's bound to come back in style.
So you might as well keep what you have--it's bound to come back in style.
Right?!?
I mean, it all still functions. And, would I rather drop $81k (average US mid-range kitchen remodel, probably 50% more here on the island, so $120k!) on something "nice and new", or be able to travel freely and rent homes in Europe for years at a time, all of which would likely have nicer kitchens too?
I absolutely love winter with long nights and snow. I do not like slush but just have to deal with it. I had snow in Paris in January and it was blissful.
I was raised in Anchorage, Alaska and if economics and medical availability allowed it, I would go back and live there. Anchorage was perfect because the snow was relatively dry.
I hibernate in the summer behind blinds.
I doubt I would enjoy a one-note climate, and our seasons are all pretty mild. I get tired of summer after about a month; I'm so ready for Fall.
I’d be fine with Sam Diego’s climate. But the point, if we move for retirement, is a lower cost of housing so that’s out. As much as I love summer I admit that I enjoy the two season climate here. I like the change of mindset they happens when winter arrives. It also makes it easier to remember how long ago things happened. When we lived in the city, especially in the drought years, the years just kind of all blurred together since there was no frame of reference to be able to say ‘that was two winters ago’ or whatever.
I absolutely love winter with long nights and snow. I do not like slush but just have to deal with it. I had snow in Paris in January and it was blissful.
I was raised in Anchorage, Alaska and if economics and medical availability allowed it, I would go back and live there. Anchorage was perfect because the snow was relatively dry.
I hibernate in the summer behind blinds.
I love the coziness of the early dark in fall. I know a lot of people that nearly drives to depression. I’m weird. I embrace it.
Love, love, love fall and winter. Hate and despise heat and humidity.
The primary reason I don't want to move back to Texas is the heat. It is miserable even in better summers than this one. I am anxiously awaiting fall and colder weather here in Colorado.
frugal-one
8-19-23, 6:40am
Yep, just moved to Texas from Wisconsin. Both have weather I do not like. A person has to choose which weather they hate more. Aging in place IMO is harder in a cold climate based on physical restraints… falls because of snow (putting a damper on exercise), constantly feeling sick (cold in lungs), driving on ice is not fun. Either way, the plan here is to travel the few months to better climes. I also feel the warmer climes cater to seniors and are even welcoming. I have no regrets. YLMV
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