The Basics - Shelter, Food, Clothing

[happystuff]

Not sure where to put this, so feel free to move, moderators.

It was a nicely-cool, bright sunny day yesterday as I went out for my walk. I found myself thinking about our retirement downsizing and "needs" versus "wants". I remembered that way back in school, we were learning the difference between needs and want. Needs were shelter, food and clothing. When needs were satisfied, a person moved on to wants.

I then started thinking about how - these days - even the items that might go into a "needs" category varies widely! A 4000 square foot house for two people versus a 1000 square foot house for two people. Beans and rice versus sirloin steak. Christian Dior (or other branded clothing) versus Levis.

Not exactly sure where I'm going with any of this except to say that I've started thinking about and looking at the individual things I have that fall into the "needs" categories to see how many are really not needed. Part of decluttering? Part of revisiting my values?

I'm not sure where any of this will end up, but it has definitely been sort of a wake-up call for me... how my life and things in my life actually exist versus what I imagine(d) my life to be/will be.

Comments, anyone?

[nswef]

Happy stuff, What a great topic to think about. Having retired 20 years ago I realize I need very little but oh, my, for my daily needs I seem to "want" many things. Comfort is key! All I have to do is think about what I take on a trip! Mostly wants, but I NEED them to keep me comfortable...so is it a need, now? I'm thinking of a pillow, vitamins, soaps, coffee, books, GPS, phone, tablet, drawing materials, writing materials. This is a fun topic. I must say I wear the same clothes over and over. I do like the idea of using these questions for decluttering. We live in the same little house we bought in 1973. Maybe 1200 square feet but a big attic and basement (very dangerous is you want to be decluttered) . Thanks for the thinking prompt.

[Tybee]

It is a great topic, and I need to think about it more before adding much. I did want to add one thing, and that is it has seemed to me over the years that transportation of some sort is a need, so one might have a car or pay for Uber or bus passes or train tickets. Maybe it is a want, but it preserves your ability to care for yourself, so I am thinking of it as a need. In the same vein, there is all the money I spend each month on medical; that's a need rather than a want.

[Tradd]

I live in a 630ish sqft rented condo. Complex was built in the early 80s and the bathroom and kitchen have the same cabinets, etc. All appliances have been replaced, plus a new floor and toilet in bathroom, but that’s it. Cheap and clean. Cheap because I’ve been there for 15 years.

I’m fine with basic cars as long as there are a few bits I prefer.

[iris lilies]

I’ve been been listening to Ramit Sethi who has a financial advice podcast. He interviews people and examines their ideas about money. Ramit talks about “ the stories we tell ourselves” about money.

The story I’ve been telling myself is that our cottage in Hermann is quite comfortable but not huge at 1400*sq ft. I know many of you live in smaller quarters! Notice my use of the word “ cottage” which is part of the story I tell myself about my modest expectations about our living conditions.

well, DH measured our house for insurance purposes and it is almost 1800 sq ft. That big increase bothers me because it dispels the fiction I have been telling myself—we live in a house that is nearly 2,000 sq ft. That is not “cottage” proportions.I am not, after all, a person satisfied with a modest abode.

I talk about this only because it tangentially ties to needs and wants. The stories we tell ourselves influence our attitude about what is a “need “versus a “want “.

* the real estate listing for this house did not have accurate square footage due to the many renovations over the years. It was listed at 1,000 sq ft.

[catherine]

Wow, I love this topic, as well as the comments so far!! I've always tried to orient myself to the difference between "needs" and "wants" and like IL, sometimes what I think is true about myself is kind of a white lie. (BTW, IL, I am now also following Ramit! I love it when he shares other people's money stories)

I have my "white sweater" story that I have told here before--about my best friend in high school. We were making our fall school clothes list, and she said, "I need a white sweater." And I said, "you NEED a white sweater?? Like you'll die if you don't get one?" She persisted, "Yes, [catherine], I NEED a white sweater."

My weird ambivalent relationship with money as it relates to spirituality is that fundabmentally I don't "need" much. I admire Peace Pilgrim, the Amish, and St. Francis and have aspired to be able to live that austerely. I have featured this poem in my blog:

Like a snail, I carry my humble zendō with me.
It is not as small as it looks
For the boundless sky joins it
When I open a window.
If one has no idea of limitation,
He should enjoy real freedom.
A nameless monk may not have the New Year callers to visit him,
But the morning sun hangs above the slums.
It will be honorable enough to receive the golden light from the east.
--Nyogen Sunsaki

But then reality hits. I do have other "needs" and there is a different reality. Unlike Peace Pilgrim, I'm responsible for other people. I'm part of this consumer culture that has talked me into my iPhone, my Prius, my cable TV, my Cadillac version of Medicare. Plus, I am married to someone whose interpretation of "needs" is broader than mine, and since I'm in the boat with him, figuratively and literally speaking, my needs balloon as a result.

If I had no immediate family, I truly believe I would live differently. I would keep this house because I love it, and it's pretty cheap. But I'm not a foodie, so I'd be happy simple meals of limited variety. I do not buy many clothes, to the distress of my daughter, although I do splurge every couple of years on Patagonia outerwear. I'm basically a minimalist dresser. I don't "need" any white sweaters. If I had no family, I would have a lot less money to spend on entertainment and grandkids. Who knows how I'd spend my money? Probably classes, a little travel, but those I certainly don't consider "needs"

I think my true needs for a life that I could pare to the bone without sacrificing happinesss would be:
Any small apartment or home that is in good repair and in a walkable pleasant neighborhood with a library.
Basic kitchen appliances. I could live without a microwave. I could probably easily find a basic cooktop OK.
Basic furniture that I would have taken from what I already have.
Food for simple meals. "Luxury" food would be desserts and maybe a glass of wine or beer now and then.
Basic thrifted clothing.
My Prius... it still has life left in it.
The insurances I currently have, although I could maybe downgrade my Medicare plan if I had to.
A small entertainment budget--coffee with a friend for instance.
A computer and a smart phone. I consider a computer a need these days, and I could watch TV on it, so it would eliminate the need for cable. Smart phones are so multi-functional, I would feel at a loss without one.
A budget for gardening supplies, thinking the more food I grow the less I have to guy; plus it's an enjoyable activity that can be as inexpensive as you want it to be.

Thanks happystuff!

[iris lilies]

Catherine: here’s a compliment. Despite our different financial situations I think you ARE more “simple” than me as your core value.

I like the creative challenges of frugality and I like the mental exercise of identifying needs vs wants. I never felt constrained by it. I also dislike anything I consider to be gross excess in consumer consumption. But all of that said, I can spend money like a drunken sailor and not regret it.

[catherine]

Catherine: here’s a compliment. Despite our different financial situations I think you ARE more “simple” than me as your core value.



Thank you! That is a compliment. I've always liked that people on this board live out their simple lives in many different ways, which is what makes it so interesting and fun to be part of the conversation.

[pinkytoe]

I am constantly trying to streamline excess things because they feel superfluous. The one thing I have figured out about myself is that I need beauty in my life to feel at peace and that has many meanings. My abode could be 400sf but if the sun shone through the windows and trees/plants/kind people surrounded me, I would be content. I just spent a week at DD's house and the level of consumption is unsettling. Life in a subdivision of 3000sf+ homes where residents drive Teslas and massive SUVs, with daily amazon deliveries for all kinds of needless stuff, constant take-out made me feel like a stranger in a strange land. Getting back to our simple need-based lives felt like fresh air.

[Tradd]

My amount of stuff was much less before I started diving! I’ve reduced the diving stuff a great deal over the past year or so. Sold off the tanks which got me a couple grand and gave away the small stuff.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It is a great topic, and I need to think about it more before adding much. I did want to add one thing, and that is it has seemed to me over the years that transportation of some sort is a need, so one might have a car or pay for Uber or bus passes or train tickets. Maybe it is a want, but it preserves your ability to care for yourself, so I am thinking of it as a need. In the same vein, there is all the money I spend each month on medical; that's a need rather than a want.

I 100% think those are very close to needs. A way to get around locally (I didn't say to fly halfway across the planet, I said what I said) and sure if it's public transit so much the better, but a way (I don't say how) to get around locally. And yes healthcare is a human right ... er I mean a need :D

Avoiding being too hot or too cold is also a need (but how hot or cold? I don't know, I even managed to get in arguments with a therapist about this before, "you should run the A/C, not being too hot is a need" "but the electricity ...." so I'm going to leave that one up to individuals, suffice to say there are temps noone can survive of course).

Human contact is a need. But it doesn't necessarily cost money of course.

[rosarugosa]

We certainly indulge in a lot of wants, although I definitely don't indulge in the level of recreational/impulse purchasing that I used to. Pottery classes for example, are obviously not a life-sustaining necessity, but I see them as adding tremendous value to our lives socially, creatively, and intellectual stimulation-wise, so I treat them as a need in our budget. However, I'm fully aware that if push came to shove this is something that could be cut.
I used to spend crazy money on clothing, and I'm so much less interested in clothing now, and the same is true for jewelry and accessories.
My big discretionary categories tend to be related to home and garden these days.

[happystuff]

I love all the comments - thank you, everyone, for sharing.

I agree that I would be living a little differently if I lived alone versus having others in the household. It's interesting that the first thing I "look" at when thinking about living alone, is all the stuff that is in the house right now that would be gone! While I know I have more things than I really need, I think I have fewer things that the other household members. Again, I realize there are also "house" things that would be here regardless of the number of people, but even that would probably change a little bit if I lived alone.

I also agree with healthcare being more in the "need" category. (Yes, I am a proponent for national healthcare for all.) Internet, cell phones... I teeter back and forth on the fence with these things as needs versus wants. Definitely a need when I was unemployed and everything - including unemployment - had to be done online, but as I approach retirement, I'm thinking it might fall more into the want category. I guess I'll find out eventually - lol.

There are so many other aspects that everyone has mentioned. Time to go re-read the posts!

Again, I'm really enjoying all the input!

[Tradd]

Cellphone, internet - I see a lot of comments on FB or elsewhere where folks want to be rid of these. Hello, how do your friends and family communicate? Expecting everyone to just call when they all text or use WhatsApp, etc, is possibly going to lead to you being out of the loop and even more disconnected.

[happystuff]

Cellphone, internet - I see a lot of comments on FB or elsewhere where folks want to be rid of these. Hello, how do your friends and family communicate? Expecting everyone to just call when they all text or use WhatsApp, etc, is possibly going to lead to you being out of the loop and even more disconnected.

Not being argumentative, but I can understand the desire to drop cellphone/internet - not that it's anything I'm actually going to do!!! I know it would make it harder to stay in touch, but I'm again reminded that communication is a two-way street. Right now all my family is digitally connected, but if no one makes the effort for contact - regardless of how-, then it doesn't matter whether there are digital tools available or not.

Your comment did make me think - so thanks. I WANT (not necessarily "need") to start reaching out more and not sit around waiting for someone to contact me. Again, thanks.

[Tradd]

Not being argumentative, but I can understand the desire to drop cellphone/internet - not that it's anything I'm actually going to do!!! I know it would make it harder to stay in touch, but I'm again reminded that communication is a two-way street. Right now all my family is digitally connected, but if no one makes the effort for contact - regardless of how-, then it doesn't matter whether there are digital tools available or not.

Your comment did make me think - so thanks. I WANT (not necessarily "need") to start reaching out more and not sit around waiting for someone to contact me. Again, thanks.

I know you’re not being argumentative. I see a lot of people on FB and elsewhere saying they want to drop their smartphones, etc. They don’t have the self discipline to stop being sucked into whatever is upsetting them. They don’t stop to think that they will likely end up being even more isolated because they won’t be on contact with friends and family after eliminating how they stay in touch. I always bring this up and it stops everyone cold. It doesn’t occur to anyone!

[catherine]

I know you’re not being argumentative. I see a lot of people on FB and elsewhere saying they want to drop their smartphones, etc. They don’t have the self discipline to stop being sucked into whatever is upsetting them. They don’t stop to think that they will likely end up being even more isolated because they won’t be on contact with friends and family after eliminating how they stay in touch. I always bring this up and it stops everyone cold. It doesn’t occur to anyone!

My next door neighbors are as close to being Luddites as anyone I know. They have very limited income, they are reclusive and extremely frugal. Yet, last summer they finally got smart phones. Obviously no one needs a smart phone to survive physically, but to your point, Tradd, in terms of cultural "needs"--you do need a smart phone. That's probably why social services gives destitute people smart phones.

At the same time, happystuff, I know what you are saying--I think we need to learn more about how to be the boss of the smart phone instead of it being the boss of us!

[cx3]

Yes, nice topic. My wife and I find ourselves both working p/t. We in our 50's. With no debt, our expenses run about 3k a month. We bring in just over that. Zero regrets. Only concerns are inflation based. Also, we don't have medical insurance. We, ( my wife ) are into naturopathy, don't trust the medical system in many regards. That being said, never know, could break a bone or need an appendectomy or something along those lines. We like our house but its more than we need and many houses and apartments popping up around us. May consider downsizing to a quieter location in future.

[HappyHiker]

I exist without a cell phone. I know, as an information junkie, I'd abuse its usage. Already spend too much time on the computer...not texting is a blessing--I've got fat fingers!

I am happy when I have enough books to read and a few flowering plants to attract the bees and butterflies. And healthy food.

When a wild urge to consume strikes me like a lightening bolt, I hie myself to my favorite nearby (2 blocks away) thrift store and spend freely. Just the other day, I splurged and purchased two pairs of earrings @ $1/each.

mea culpa.

Have you found it true that we spend the first half of our lives gathering things. And the second half letting go of things??

Simplicity is freeing--and calming.

[happystuff]

Have you found it true that we spend the first half of our lives gathering things. And the second half letting go of things??

Simplicity is freeing--and calming.

I think you are right! First half gathering and second half purging. And I also agree that simplicity is freeing, but getting there has been, and still sometimes is, a rocky path.