What do you consider middle class?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm not sure but I believe I was just referred to as middle class by another forum regular which really threw me for a loop but from an income perspective it is true. It just seems so bizarre to me sometimes - and I don't mean this is bad, just bizarre - that I ended out at a place that one would even begin to consider to be quasi successful. Me, of all people!

But then I wonder - what exactly is middle class, anyway? Is it just income, or is it material markers, attitudes, criteria for how one does and does not approach life, etc? I am hoping we can have an interesting discussion here - this is relatively new to me and I don't know how to answer other than based off income. And some nice recent furniture I bought - second hand at the Junior League Sale two Saturdays ago - very grateful work let me have that morning off. The point is that the furniture looks much nicer than what I am used to even if used. So, nicer things than if I were back where I was before? Rob

[HappyHiker]

A fascinating question. Many definitions, I bet.

Is MC solely based on income?
Home ownership?
How much you spend?
How much debt you have?
How much savings?
What about education?

I view us as ""muddle class."

We live quite frugally, don't take exotic vacations (prefer to be in nature) yet we own our home, two cars, have comfortable savings and no debt.

Yep, we're Muddle Class and Living Poor with Style. It's our preference.

[Tradd]

I think some of it has to do with mindset. You don’t have a “poor” mindset if you’re middle class. You have some ability to delay gratification. It’s not uncommon that a lot of poor people will spend any windfall or extra money on luxury items, rather than putting the money away or paying bills.

[Tradd]

Forgot to add - there does seem to be an educational component to it, in some cases.

[iris lilies]

I'm not sure but I believe I was just referred to as middle class by another forum regular which really threw me for a loop but from an income perspective it is true. It just seems so bizarre to me sometimes - and I don't mean this is bad, just bizarre - that I ended out at a place that one would even begin to consider to be quasi successful. Me, of all people!

But then I wonder - what exactly is middle class, anyway? Is it just income, or is it material markers, attitudes, criteria for how one does and does not approach life, etc? I am hoping we can have an interesting discussion here - this is relatively new to me and I don't know how to answer other than based off income. And some nice recent furniture I bought - second hand at the Junior League Sale two Saturdays ago - very grateful work let me have that morning off. The point is that the furniture looks much nicer than what I am used to even if used. So, nicer things than if I were back where I was before? Rob

let’s see, white man, college educated, management-level job making an easily livable wage, owns real estate worth $$$ and a is landlord.

Of course you are middle class. we have had many discussions about class markers on this site over the years and I always find them interesting.

But the real question is why that label bothers you so much.

In your mind, me having sofas for years I pulled in from the alley negates my middle-class ness? Hell I recently bought beds with used mattresses. Guess I am just part of the po folks brigade.

Rob, I do not think buying your furniture second hand defines your “class.”
we know inheriting old furniture is a marker of upper class. Here, I mean multi-centtury old furnitue and and sterling silver as well.

[gimmethesimplelife]

let’s see, white man, college educated, management-level job making an easily livable wage, owns real estate worth $$$ and a is landlord.

Of course you are middle class.

But the real question is why that label bothers you so much.Remember Sofia on The Golden Girls and how she would start one of her Sicily stories with
"Picture this"? Picture this - I am in line at a museum in Marrakesh (in 2015) and all around me Arabic is being spoken and of course I have no idea of what anyone is saying. This for me is what the concept of being middle class is - not a problem, mind you, but something alien almost. It definitely requires and has required adjustments on my part. I don't know that the label bothers me, IL, it's just that it is different - very different - and I don't seem to have all the skills one in the middle class might have to deal with it. Rob

[bae]

Jocular guideline:

If you rent your furniture, you are lower-class.
If you buy your own furniture, you are middle-class or new money.
If you have ancestral furniture, you are comfortably upper-class, even if you are poor.

Perhaps of interest:

"Class: A Guide Through the American Status System", Paul Fussell

"Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There", David Brooks

"White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America", Nancy Isenberg

"The Broken Ladder: How Inequality Affects the Way We Think, Live, and Die", Keith Payne

"Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis", Robert D. Putnam

"Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America", Barbara Ehrenreich

"The Sum of Small Things: A Theory of the Aspirational Class", Elizabeth Currid-Halkett

"People Like Us: Social Class in America", Charles Murray

"Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams", Alfred Lubrano

"Inequality in the Promised Land: Race, Resources, and Suburban Schooling", L’Heureux Lewis-McCoy

"Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right", Arlie Russell Hochschild

"Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City", Matthew Desmond

[iris lilies]

I think examining values around money and wealth reveal class markers.

Middle class people save money and invest it because they expect to always have some money, and they expect it to fund a stable life.

The chaos of poverty often imparts the value “spend money while you have it” because money comes and goes, it is not a stable presence in one’s life if you are poor.

Of course there are plenty of blue collar/working class folks who save money and invest it, too. But generationally poor people tend to not hang on to money.

[iris lilies]

My dear Rob I am not a gay man and hence did not watch or even like Golden Girls! Haha.

[gimmethesimplelife]

My dear Rob I am not a gay man and hence did not watch or even like Golden Girls! Haha.This is one of very few markers of being an American gay male that I actually fit. I LOVED that show! Especially Blanche but they were all good in their parts. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Jocular guideline:

If you rent your furniture, you are lower-class.
If you buy your own furniture, you are middle-class or new money.
If you have ancestral furniture, you are comfortably upper-class, even if you are poor.

Perhaps of interest:

"Class: A Guide Through the American Status System", Paul Fussell

"Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There", David Brooks

"White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America", Nancy Isenberg

"The Broken Ladder: How Inequality Affects the Way We Think, Live, and Die", Keith Payne

"Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis", Robert D. Putnam

"Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America", Barbara Ehrenreich

"The Sum of Small Things: A Theory of the Aspirational Class", Elizabeth Currid-Halkett

"People Like Us: Social Class in America", Charles Murray

"Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams", Alfred Lubrano

"Inequality in the Promised Land: Race, Resources, and Suburban Schooling", L’Heureux Lewis-McCoy

"Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right", Arlie Russell Hochschild

"Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City", Matthew DesmondGoing by your guideline, where does buying your own furniture, but buying it secondhand fit? I've looked at new furniture and not only does the price completely turn me off, what I have seen is of shoddy construction and appears poorly made. This is not just my being frugal - I can't rationalize spending THAT MUCH money on something not built well when less expensive AND at the same time higher quality options exist. So, once again, where does this fit into your guidelines? Rob

[iris lilies]

This is one of very few markers of being an American gay male that I actually fit. I LOVED that show! Especially Blanche but they were all good in their parts. Rob
I know more than I want to know about Blanche given the decades I lived in a gay man paradise, my historic neighborhood.

[catherine]

Cheer up, Rob. Maybe you're lower middle class!

I think if you consider the difference in strata among lower vs middle vs upper middle class, here's a possible description: lower middle class as having less income but being able to achieve material and job stability with few struggles. Upper middle class would be more aspirational--having incomes that enable them to sometimes mingle with the uppercrust at country clubs and prep schools but still feel insecure there. They would more likely be savers and investors but I would suspect there is a lot of conspicuous consumption for those folks.

Middle-middle class would be somewhere in the middle. :)

[early morning]

To me, class seems to be largely a state of mind. I have always considered us working class - so that would be more lower middle class, maybe? My father was quite pointed about it, so I guess I just absorbed that. He was brought up farming, and went into blue collar/factory work because it paid better, was easier, and was a steady paycheck. DH is/was a blue collar worker, although his father was a middle manager at a large company and he - FIL- considered himself middle class. But - my father collected antiques (because he loved them), and raised orchids in his own greenhouse, back in the 60s when orchids were quite exotic. We had horses, and I spent several years on the local horse show circuit. Looking back, that looks more like a middle class lifestyle, but that's not what we kids were brought up to believe. Like middle class was "uppity" or something? Odd how I didn't really think much about that. I remember once I came home from school and asked why everyone else had a lunch box and I had a dinner bucket (that looked like everyone else's lunch box) my mother told me that town people had lunch and dinner. Country people had dinner and supper. I rented a house right after moving out of my parent's home, but bought a house when we married (at 21), so if property ownership is a class marker, we have that! Interesting food for thought.

[iris lilies]

To me, class seems to be largely a state of mind. I have always considered us working class - so that would be more lower middle class, maybe? My father was quite pointed about it, so I guess I just absorbed that. He was brought up farming, and went into blue collar/factory work because it paid better, was easier, and was a steady paycheck. DH is/was a blue collar worker, although his father was a middle manager at a large company and he - FIL- considered himself middle class. But - my father collected antiques (because he loved them), and raised orchids in his own greenhouse, back in the 60s when orchids were quite exotic. We had horses, and I spent several years on the local horse show circuit. Looking back, that looks more like a middle class lifestyle, but that's not what we kids were brought up to believe. Like middle class was "uppity" or something? Odd how I didn't really think much about that. I remember once I came home from school and asked why everyone else had a lunch box and I had a dinner bucket (that looked like everyone else's lunch box) my mother told me that town people had lunch and dinner. Country people had dinner and supper. I rented a house right after moving out of my parent's home, but bought a house when we married (at 21), so if property ownership is a class marker, we have that! Interesting food for thought.

yes, the horror of the dreaded petite bourgeois, or the insulting “bougie” for short! And in the UK they say “middle class” with such a sneer!

I am middle class, born that way, will die that way. I find it to be a very freeing sort of existence with none of the limitations of poverty and none of the burdens of responsibility of generational wealth.

Of course, millions of middle class Americans manage to stress themselves out over stupid consumerism and poor financial choices, but those are largely their own decisions landing them in stress land.

EM that is cool about your father’s decidedly upper middle class hobbies!

[ApatheticNoMore]

I am middle class, currently, how I was raised etc. It's not an ideological position, do I generally relate to middle class ways of being? In many ways no, I can go real hard on critiques of the middle class and be real critical of how many of them are, excessive, wasteful, insulated.

But that's like saying one agrees with white supremacy if they happen to be of European stock, or even that one is "USA! USA! USA!" if one simply admits one is an American. Nah. Those aren't ideological positions and neither is being middle class. Frankly I think it's very hard to make it here in California if one ISN'T well into middle class. I know people do OF COURSE, but it's struggle bus all the way. This is no country for poor people (relax I'm not banning any poor people, just realistic about how hard it is to stay above water). If you aren't living paycheck to paycheck and worrying about how to pay next months bills, yea you are probably pulling in a middle class income here.

[ToomuchStuff]

Back when my 100 year old neighbor was alive, her and her daughter told me middle class, at least back in the 50's, meant you had a house with electricity, a tv, a refrigerator (not an icebox), one car and if you were lucky, a/c. That is kind of what I have based my view on, honestly. Now her grandson and my friend in the Marshall service, I am sure would have a much different expectation with his education, language skills, and travels that he has done.

As for a couch, well I haven't had one for decades, until my friend passed and I ended up with his beat up "cat couch" upstairs. Why you ask, because I have only ever had myself to move my own furniture. Family has enough medical issues, that I have moved them, but now that it is my time to move from the old house to the new, I only can count on myself and have lifting restrictions due to the Ostomy.
I actually was looking at what I thought was a wonderful used couch and chair on Craigslist the other day, but am not in the shape to move them myself and the one friend whose truck and trailer I could actually, maybe use, is getting ready for full blown heart surgery.
Thought about a pallet couch (google it), as I could handle that.

My mom has offered me this ugly as heck Lazyboy couch that belonged to a childhood friends grandmother. (she is in town, getting divorced and we are going to get together for a visit at some point, I expect she will cry if she see's me on the couch) I need a cover for it, if I use it instead and my mom thinks she can get a couple of people from her church to bring it over to me. (cost of gas)
I would still have to get rid of the cat couch. Probably cut off the fabric, then use a reciprocating saw to cut it apart, so I could do it. That is probably a poor person mindset, but I have never had a bunch of people to rely on. Always taught you deserve nothing and be grateful for any help you do get.

[iris lilies]

TooMuchStuff, you are touching on something I was thinking about today.I am very very lucky to have a truck and a husband who can move anything. I prefer vintage furniture and the things I buy are usually cheaper than buying new furniture. But we have an easy means to haul it, so that allows us to pick up cool stuff at low prices.

Not everyone can do that.

[jp1]

The Washington post had an article a week or two ago about a survey they did on this exact topic. The extremely TLDR version of the article was ‘middle class is when you have security. Job stability, health insurance, etc, are as important as the amount of income one has in determining whether one is middle class. ‘

[happystuff]

When kids came along and we ended up as a one-income family of five, I thought of ourselves as Upper Lower Class - financially. Now that the kids are independent, dh and I are both working with half way decent salaries, and almost no debt, i think we may have moved up to at least Lower Middle Class - if not closing in on Middle Middle class - again, financially.

As far as material things - if you all haven't figured it out by now, I am not a decorator. I have things that are functional, most have been free, and they get used until they can't be used any more. One of the kids, in describing the household, said it was "eclectic", which was a nicer way of saying "early American yard sale". LOL.

[pinkytoe]

I wonder where higher education fits into the term.

[ToomuchStuff]

I wonder where higher education fits into the term.

In the debt category!

So if no "higher education", does that make plumbers, electricians, assembly line workers, etc. not middle class?

[iris lilies]

In the debt category!

So if no "higher education", does that make plumbers, electricians, assembly line workers, etc. not middle class?
Traditionally this is working class, which does not address the income or wealth these household have.

My richest uncle was the plumber.

[ToomuchStuff]

Traditionally this is working class, which does not address the income or wealth these household have.

My richest uncle was the plumber.

Working class is middle class. Not having a job would have put you either in the poor or richest classes, depending on means.

[early morning]

Working class is middle class Again - depends on how one uses/interprets those terms. I grew up with blue collar work = working class, white collar work = middle class - even though incomes and allocation of resources could vary widely within those groups. Class can be more than economics - I think we all know a few hi-income and or family money people who have no class at all. :~)

[Tradd]

Again - depends on how one uses/interprets those terms. I grew up with blue collar work = working class, white collar work = middle class - even though incomes and allocation of resources could vary widely within those groups. Class can be more than economics - I think we all know a few hi-income and or family money people who have no class at all. :~)

And then the people who are white trash regardless of how much money they eventually have. I have relatives like this. My father’s sister and brother. And my brother.

I’ve used white trash for years. I picked it up from reading Gone with the Wind in 6th grade. And it definitely fits these people.

[early morning]

Lol, Tradd - I'm related to some major white trash myself.

[LDAHL]

I don’t think class, whether in the Marxist or social sense, has much explanatory power in the US. It’s just a muddle of various forms of status-seeking.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Who cares about status? I care about paying bills, having an okayish standard of living, having savings, and being able to buy a few things I don't absolutely need because I want them. That requires at least a middle class income pretty much though.

[catherine]

Jocular guideline:

If you rent your furniture, you are lower-class.
If you buy your own furniture, you are middle-class or new money.
If you have ancestral furniture, you are comfortably upper-class, even if you are poor.

Perhaps of interest:

"Class: A Guide Through the American Status System", Paul Fussell

"Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There", David Brooks

"White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America", Nancy Isenberg

"The Broken Ladder: How Inequality Affects the Way We Think, Live, and Die", Keith Payne

"Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis", Robert D. Putnam

"Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America", Barbara Ehrenreich

"The Sum of Small Things: A Theory of the Aspirational Class", Elizabeth Currid-Halkett

"People Like Us: Social Class in America", Charles Murray

"Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams", Alfred Lubrano

"Inequality in the Promised Land: Race, Resources, and Suburban Schooling", L’Heureux Lewis-McCoy

"Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right", Arlie Russell Hochschild

"Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City", Matthew Desmond

Interesting reading list. I've read a couple of those books. Paul Russell's book is discussed in this New Yorker piece about, not middle class, but the ruling class:. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/01/29/rules-for-the-ruling-class?source=Paid_Soc_FBIG_CM_0_ASC_GTM_0_NYR_US_P rospecting_C&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Paid_Soc_FBIG_CM&utm_brand=tny&utm_campaign=paid-ASC_GTM&utm_paidredirect=Paid_Soc_FBIG_CMASC_C&fbclid=IwAR2qLv-WzO2sAUfZREijhbasiLbzNqoXgOdFafR14lZFhfkgsCZLWFH5m 4c

[ToomuchStuff]

Hey Rob, why haven't you come back and posted your views in this, you started the discussion!

[iris lilies]

When kids came along and we ended up as a one-income family of five, I thought of ourselves as Upper Lower Class - financially. Now that the kids are independent, dh and I are both working with half way decent salaries, and almost no debt, i think we may have moved up to at least Lower Middle Class - if not closing in on Middle Middle class - again, financially.

As far as material things - if you all haven't figured it out by now, I am not a decorator. I have things that are functional, most have been free, and they get used until they can't be used any more. One of the kids, in describing the household, said it was "eclectic", which was a nicer way of saying "early American yard sale". LOL.

Part of being secure in myself probably has to do with no class angst. My parents are middle middle class. I have no desire to move out of that. I am middle middle class. I mean I’m right smack dab in the middle. I like it that way. We probably have more money than a lot of middle middle class people because we are old and we saved a lot. But that doesn’t change our overall place in American society.

In the United Kingdom class is so much more stratified, identified by your accent, and your school and your profession. I read that Kate Middleton, despite her family’s wealth and appropriate educational choices for their children, is still not considered upper class. She’s just a commoner and a middle class one at that.

[LDAHL]

Who cares about status? I care about paying bills, having an okayish standard of living, having savings, and being able to buy a few things I don't absolutely need because I want them. That requires at least a middle class income pretty much though.

I don’t see how one person’s preferred package of goods and services can be used to define a class.

This country, being founded largely by rejects and refugees from other places’ post feudal class systems, never really had much of a tradition of class of its own. The crooks, fanatics, second sons, failed rebels and starving families who came here largely came to escape that sort of thing. We have had people try establishing themselves as a superior class: Boston Brahmins, the Southern Slave Aristocracy, etc., but only with limited success.

[cx3]

Jocular guideline:

If you rent your furniture, you are lower-class.
If you buy your own furniture, you are middle-class or new money.
If you have ancestral furniture, you are comfortably upper-class, even if you are poor
We still haven't defined middle class, although bae has done well with this description.
I have a coworker who recently got a loan for a $25k used minivan that will put a strain on his monthly finances. He went this route because he didn't have $2,000 cash to buy a used car from an individual. I'd call this working poor.
I also have a cousin who until recently delivered pizzas for a living. He built a multimillion dollar net worth in his lifetime through real estate. Don't know what class I'd put him in.

[iris lilies]

I heard a report on NPR about department stores that traditionally serve the middle class having financial trouble. Part of that is the shrinking middle class, part of it a dying mall culture, part online shopping. But another part, according to the reporter, is that middle class folks are shopping downline at Walmart and Dollar General in addition to buying upscale products like Ralph Lauren.

They go low so that they can go high.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I heard a report on NPR about department stores that traditionally serve the middle class having financial trouble. Part of that is the shrinking middle class, part of it a dying mall culture, part online shopping. But another part, according to the reporter, is that middle class folks are shopping downline at Walmart and Dollar General in addition to buying upscale products like Ralph Lauren.

They go low so that they can go high.Ummmm......this middle class person remains low. It's been too difficult getting here and I don't have the basic faith/trust in this society to upgrade my standard of living much.

That said, I do use soap made by a neighbor that is really high quality and is not cheap. I also have a heavy silver chain that I gifted myself for my birthday. I may wear it if the guilt subsides. Rob

[iris lilies]

Ummmm......this middle class person remains low. It's been too difficult getting here and I don't have the basic faith/trust in this society to upgrade my standard of living much.

That said, I do use soap made by a neighbor that is really high quality and is not cheap. I also have a heavy silver chain that I gifted myself for my birthday. I may wear it if the guilt subsides. Rob

I think your self flagellations are silly.

Certainly, we all need to guard against the dehumanizing pull of avarice, but a “silver chain” hardly rises to that occasion. But you do you.

[Alan]

I don't think middle class has anything to do with luxury items or silver chains, I think of middle class as those who enjoy a certain comfort level. If you can go through life without worrying much about how you'll pay your living expenses, if your needs are met and you're able to splurge a little now and then on wants and have enough resources available to put aside for the future and handle minor emergencies as they arise, you're probably middle class.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Hey Rob, why haven't you come back and posted your views in this, you started the discussion!Fair question, TMS. Fair question. For me it's so foreign to have money left over to (hoard) invest and save - this kind of money - that I expect the other shoe to drop any day now. My life has known little stability in the sense of not being immune to constant financial fear that would have been less in one of the better countries. So the concept of being middle class is - is - is like a trip, you know? Just a trip. Mind you I'm not complaining nor do I care to go back to where I was - it's just that it's a trip. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I don't think middle class has anything to do with luxury items or silver chains, I think of middle class as those who enjoy a certain comfort level. If you can go through life without worrying much about how you'll pay your living expenses, if your needs are met and you're able to splurge a little now and then on wants and have enough resources available to put aside for the future and handle minor emergencies as they arise, you're probably middle class.I think this is a pretty good definition of middle class. Thank You, Alan. By your definition yes, I'm middle class. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think your self flagellations are silly.

Certainly, we all need to guard against the dehumanizing pull of avarice, but a “silver chain” hardly rises to that occasion. But you do you.I am cringe to admit this in a world with so many hungry people and such instability, but here goes - $259 before tax. I'm sure you can understand my guilt now. Rob

[ToomuchStuff]

I am cringe to admit this in a world with so many hungry people and such instability, but here goes - $259 before tax. I'm sure you can understand my guilt now. Rob

No, not at all.

[iris lilies]

No, not at all.
Ditto.

[happystuff]

Fair question, TMS. Fair question. For me it's so foreign to have money left over to (hoard) invest and save - this kind of money - that I expect the other shoe to drop any day now. My life has known little stability in the sense of not being immune to constant financial fear that would have been less in one of the better countries. So the concept of being middle class is - is - is like a trip, you know? Just a trip. Mind you I'm not complaining nor do I care to go back to where I was - it's just that it's a trip. Rob

I can totally understand this (as well as the angst about the silver chain!). I have been there and will admit to there being a residual fear of a "return to the struggle". In my lifetime so far, I have made very good money followed by living on a shoestring. Happy we are back to being a little more comfortable, but I don't think I will ever forget struggling. As with you, I'm not complaining and I am ever so grateful for everything! I just realize how quickly people and things can be ripped away.

[catherine]

I can totally understand this (as well as the angst about the silver chain!). I have been there and will admit to there being a residual fear of a "return to the struggle". In my lifetime so far, I have made very good money followed by living on a shoestring. Happy we are back to being a little more comfortable, but I don't think I will ever forget struggling. As with you, I'm not complaining and I am ever so grateful for everything! I just realize how quickly people and things can be ripped away.

Agreed..BTDT too.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I can totally understand this (as well as the angst about the silver chain!). I have been there and will admit to there being a residual fear of a "return to the struggle". In my lifetime so far, I have made very good money followed by living on a shoestring. Happy we are back to being a little more comfortable, but I don't think I will ever forget struggling. As with you, I'm not complaining and I am ever so grateful for everything! I just realize how quickly people and things can be ripped away.You get it, HappyStuff, Thank You! And you are so so right, it all can be stripped away from you so quickly. And often via circumstances completely beyond your control. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Agreed..BTDT too.Thank You, too, Catherine. Rob

[ToomuchStuff]

Started to type a reply, will have to come back to this later, as I am headed in to make sure the deposit gets to the bank, then home to clean for a bit, then medical, then to try my first night back at the restaurant. Haven't had the stamina to work my normal 12 hour days, but the way the idiot has run things, I am hoping not to have to go three uncashed/uncashable paychecks.

[iris lilies]

As for fear of financial struggle, I have never realistically had financial worry BUT our jokes about Inner Bag Ladies land with me because I am fearful of being poor. I have not been there. Do not ever want to be there. And struggling with financial problems when you have dependent children is a special kind of money hell.

[catherine]

As for fear of financial struggle, I have never realistically had financial worry BUT our jokes about Inner Bag Ladies land with me because I am fearful of being poor. I have not been there. Do not ever want to be there. And struggling with financial problems when you have dependent children is a special kind of money hell.

Lunch lady tells kid that they can't get lunch because mom's check bounced.
Need milk, solicit kids to help dig through couch cushions for change.
Have only $11 to throw a birthday party for 10 year old and then feel the poignancy and shame to the core when the kid is effusively grateful for the gift--a bag of tube socks from Walmart.
Kid asks you drop them off a block from school because they are embarrassed to be seen in old beat-up car.
Neighbor drops off hand-me-downs, unsolicited, and clueless Mom dresses kid in one of his classmate's hand-me-downs, incurring ridicule from previous owner.
Family comes home from a visit to grandma and, as usual, flicks on the light switch just to see if the electric company had shut them off again.
When electric company comes to red-tag the meter, eldest street-smart kid engages the worker in conversation specifically to see how he put it on, so kid could take it off.
Local library levies a judgement for overdue fines.
Daughter lands in emergency room after a doctor visit and phone has been cut off so neighbor has to go to the house to inform DH.
After having a miscarriage, mom unable to pay OB/GYN bill; OB calls to personally harass deadbeat patient.

That's the short list. No more surprising to me than anyone else--me--the college-educated, nice suburban soccer-mom. But that's the way it was, until thankfully it wasn't.

[pinkytoe]

I recall a time during one of the 1980s recessions that we were flat broke. We had a new baby, were both laid off from our jobs, lost our house and could not pay our bills. It was a horrible feeling but the experience made us fully appreciate finally getting our act together and feeling financially secure. The fear of reliving it though never quite leaves.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I've only ever been middle class really, not poor. Did I live like I was poor when unemployed? Somewhat. But that's just what ANY sensible person would do if they don't have work unless they are truly independently wealthy. And sure it sucked.

My partner grew up poorer than me. It's not good, the ONLY time I stress about money almost is when unemployed or unstably employed (and once in a rare while with a big bill), so most of my life I'm not super stressed about it, for them it's just constant background anxiety, forever. It's not good. Money anxiety like that has few redeeming features.

It took me 11 months to find a job in the Trump economy. My partner may get a job offer after 11 months of searching (granted they were searching while employed) in the Biden economy. I think people who debate which economy is better or worse are full of nonsense. Of course I know the Great Recession post 2008 economy was GENUINELY bad (though I personally was ok), and of course I think Trump would be vastly worse as President. I just mean the economy.

[ToomuchStuff]

My parents, were the first family members to make it to the middle class out of my fathers family (mom was an only child). I think her parents, were somewhere between lower and middle, at various times.
The way my life went, I was lower class. Had a conversation with a friend of mine, who talked about mowing yards, odd jobs, etc. as a kid to earn money. He was shocked to learn that I was told if I wanted to mow, first I had to not try to get any jobs taken away from the kid up the street (don't compete), and then I had to get my own mower (couldn't start with dad's and save up to get one). So no tools to do the job, so no job.
Want to go to the movies? Want to buy something? Don't eat lunch at school and save up your lunch money to go, and if your lucky, parents will give you a ride. (was a big deal to see Return of the Jedi) When we were little, we were given an allowance based on chores, that we never received because parents would borrow it (before we made "middle class"). I am still basically two meals a day mentality, because food or stuff.
When I started taking care of my grandmothers house, that mower was off limits for making money as we had to make it last. On occasion she would pay me, I would leave that money in a cup in the medicine cabinet and use it to buy tools or supplies I would need to fix things around the house. A good part of the reason that as the second choice for a chance at the house, I was offered it at half price (effectively 1960 price when grandparents bought it in 57), to buy my mom out.
Lived in it without a/c for the entire time I was there. Bought a unit, designed to cool the house to replace the dead one in the window, and my help that went to put it in with me, stooped over and ended up in emergency surgery, with an intestinal blockage that had to have a section cut out. Never tried again, as never had help again.
By my neighbor's 1950 definition, I was middle class, but I was never more then an hourly employee, who at most may make $5 a day in tips, as everyone thought I was either one of the owners, or related to them. I was ecstatic one day when I actually received a $60 tip. (my highest for decades)
Almost everytime I thought I had another, better paying job, it fell through before it even started. (one required me to move, another the day I was supposed to start, the contract was canceled, a third a friend wanted me to work for his restaurant and had a stroke that night, and it goes on). At one point I did work two jobs, 7 days a week, for 362 days a year, for three years straight. That was where I started to get ahead, until the bosses started having medical issues and I ended up stepping up and running the place. Then I was making good money, at the expense of 80+ hour weeks and really got ahead until the one boss passed and the other put me on his brothers salary (effectively a pay cut).

[happystuff]

Lunch lady tells kid that they can't get lunch because mom's check bounced.
Need milk, solicit kids to help dig through couch cushions for change.
Have only $11 to throw a birthday party for 10 year old and then feel the poignancy and shame to the core when the kid is effusively grateful for the gift--a bag of tube socks from Walmart.
Kid asks you drop them off a block from school because they are embarrassed to be seen in old beat-up car.
Neighbor drops off hand-me-downs, unsolicited, and clueless Mom dresses kid in one of his classmate's hand-me-downs, incurring ridicule from previous owner.
Family comes home from a visit to grandma and, as usual, flicks on the light switch just to see if the electric company had shut them off again.
When electric company comes to red-tag the meter, eldest street-smart kid engages the worker in conversation specifically to see how he put it on, so kid could take it off.
Local library levies a judgement for overdue fines.
Daughter lands in emergency room after a doctor visit and phone has been cut off so neighbor has to go to the house to inform DH.
After having a miscarriage, mom unable to pay OB/GYN bill; OB calls to personally harass deadbeat patient.

That's the short list. No more surprising to me than anyone else--me--the college-educated, nice suburban soccer-mom. But that's the way it was, until thankfully it wasn't.

Not too much to say about this except that reality can really suck sometimes!

[iris lilies]

Lunch lady tells kid that they can't get lunch because mom's check bounced.
Need milk, solicit kids to help dig through couch cushions for change.
Have only $11 to throw a birthday party for 10 year old and then feel the poignancy and shame to the core when the kid is effusively grateful for the gift--a bag of tube socks from Walmart.
Kid asks you drop them off a block from school because they are embarrassed to be seen in old beat-up car.
Neighbor drops off hand-me-downs, unsolicited, and clueless Mom dresses kid in one of his classmate's hand-me-downs, incurring ridicule from previous owner.
Family comes home from a visit to grandma and, as usual, flicks on the light switch just to see if the electric company had shut them off again.
When electric company comes to red-tag the meter, eldest street-smart kid engages the worker in conversation specifically to see how he put it on, so kid could take it off.
Local library levies a judgement for overdue fines.
Daughter lands in emergency room after a doctor visit and phone has been cut off so neighbor has to go to the house to inform DH.
After having a miscarriage, mom unable to pay OB/GYN bill; OB calls to personally harass deadbeat patient.

That's the short list. No more surprising to me than anyone else--me--the college-educated, nice suburban soccer-mom. But that's the way it was, until thankfully it wasn't.

I love that story about your street smart kid working the electric Meter game. Poor people have all kinds of skills I don’t have, I know that.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I love that bed by your street smart kid working the electric Meter game. Poor people have all kinds of skills I don’t have, I know that.One of these skills that I retain with great pride and great common sense - the connections and the knowledge necessary to navigate much less expensive Mexican health care - though I do understand that this is not going to apply for all Americans with economic challenges, meaning that not all live three hours away from multiple lower costs as I do. There is such decency in offshoring all you can out of the US to save money. Look at it this way - corporations will offshore your job if possible in a millisecond - why not pay America back in kind and save money while you are at it? Rob

[iris lilies]

One of these skills that I retain with great pride and great common sense - the connections and the knowledge necessary to navigate much less expensive Mexican health care - though I do understand that this is not going to apply for all Americans with economic challenges, meaning that not all live three hours away from multiple lower costs as I do. There is such decency in offshoring all you can out of the US to save money. Look at it this way - corporations will offshore your job if possible in a millisecond - why not pay America back in kind and save money while you are at it? Rob

Yes, finding alternative and cheaper options for anything including healthcare is a good idea. Identifying good healthcare providers in Mexico is a good skill.

I don’t understand “such decency “in the action tho. Do you think corporate America cares that you don’t use corporate America healthcare services? Do you think anyone cares besides yourself?

You are participating in the most basic act of capitalism—shopping for best price of product. That’s what capitalistic corporate America thrives on, price conscious shoppers.

[littlebittybobby]

okay---I was in the deep-discount groc store last nite, just before closing time, and there was a mother-daughter duo in there, and mama was a hottie. She was a very classy lady, with looong brown hair and no tats and not dressed provocatively. Not trashy, like most a them, now. Or wore out, from too many cigarettes. See? Wish I'da had my cell along, to take a photo to show you kids. Yup. Hope that ansers your quession. Thankk mee.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Yes, finding alternative and cheaper options for anything including healthcare is a good idea. Identifying good healthcare providers in Mexico is a good skill.

I don’t understand “such decency “in the action tho. Do you think corporate America cares that you don’t use corporate America healthcare services? Do you think anyone cares besides yourself?

You are participating in the most basic act of capitalism—shopping for best price of product. That’s what capitalistic corporate America thrives on, price conscious shoppers.YES! On some level you get it, IL. Exactly! Offshoring is extremely capitalistic of me - I have no problem admitting this. It's also payback for the excessive costs inherent in this citizenship, terror of US healthcare (costs, not quality), and for short term profit trumping (word play honestly not intended) human life/human rights/human dignity. When I offshore, in a microscopically small kind of way (a point I do understand) I am voting against the United States of America and the much of it that is toxic and that works against the majority of US citizens.

Jiminy Christmas, I accomplish all that by merely crossing an International border? And I save money, too? I'd say sign me up LOL but I signed up years ago. Rob

[iris lilies]

YES! On some level you get it, IL. Exactly! Offshoring is extremely capitalistic of me - I have no problem admitting this. It's also payback for the excessive costs inherent in this citizenship, terror of US healthcare (costs, not quality), and for short term profit trumping (word play honestly not intended) human life/human rights/human dignity. When I offshore, in a microscopically small kind of way (a point I do understand) I am voting against the United States of America and the much of it that is toxic and that works against the majority of US citizens.

Jiminy Christmas, I accomplish all that by merely crossing an International border? And I save money, too? I'd say sign me up LOL but I signed up years ago. Rob


so, when I visit 16th century castles in the UK, and in Romania, I am “voting against the United States of America” rather than visiting the faux castles of Disney World and etc. I am voting against The “much of it that is toxic “in this country’s inability to preserve its historic buildings.

Alrighty, then. Maybe.

I just think of it as uncle Walt not getting my travel dollars because I think his product is stupid and boring.

[gimmethesimplelife]

so, when I visit 16th century castles in the UK, and in Romania, I am “voting against the United States of America” rather than visiting the faux castles of Disney World and etc. I am voting against The “much of it that is toxic “in this country’s inability to preserve its historic buildings.

Alrighty, then. Maybe.

I just think of it as uncle Walt not getting my travel dollars because I think his product is stupid and boring.IL, no offense, you are comparing apples and oranges here. Health care - especially when urgently needed - is a big deal and depending on the issue, potentially life saving. This does not compare in the slightest to where you or I might wish to travel - we're talking sometimes survival here vs. spending disposable income on traveling. I see a HUGE dif here. Rob

[iris lilies]

IL, no offense, you are comparing apples and oranges here. Health care - especially when urgently needed - is a big deal and depending on the issue, potentially life saving. This does not compare in the slightest to where you or I might wish to travel - we're talking sometimes survival here vs. spending disposable income on traveling. I see a HUGE dif here. Rob
Well, mine is not a good analogy. I didn’t say it was,:~) but it is an analogy. In the broad view it is about shopping around for our best experience with products and services.

for the record. I know plenty of people who have disposable income they could spend on healthcare, but they cry poor because they want it to be free. They could go to Mexico, I suppose, but they prefer to complain.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Well, mine is not a good analogy. I didn’t say it was,:~) but it is an analogy. In the broad view it is about shopping around for our best experience with products and services.

for the record. I know plenty of people who have disposable income they could spend on healthcare, but they cry poor because they want it to be free. They could go to Mexico, I suppose, but they prefer to complain.K. IL. I get your point. All is good. And I'll give you this - I know a couple people like this who don't offshore - but love to complain even though a cost effective solution is but three hours and crossing an international border away. Highly irritating to me but what can you do? Rob

[IshbelRobertson]

Talking from a UK perspective, I am middle class, or maybe even Upper Middle Class! My Dad was a career army officer in a Highland Regiment. Mother was a stay at home Mum but helped out on various charities. They both went to private schools, as did the three children in the family. We owned our home in Scotland, inherited from my Dad’s family.
We all had dance lessons, sports training. We all went to university.
We had at least two foreign holidays per year.
We all had families who also attended private schools and university.
We are now retired, still have at least two foreign holidays per year, including a visit to my sister and her family in Australia, every couple of years!

[rosarugosa]

Nice to hear from you, Ishbel. It's been a long time!

[littlebittybobby]

Nice to hear from you, Ishbel. It's been a long time! i second that, RR & Ishbel. Having an authentic thrifty Scot on board lends a great deal of creedence to the forum! yup.