Birth rate decline: Good or bad?

[catherine]

I just finished reading an article in the Atlantic Daily newsletter: The Real Reason People Aren't Having Kids.
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2024/08/fertility-crisis/679319/?utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20240922&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=The+Atlantic+Daily

I'm not sure you're going to be able to read it, but essentially, it says that while people are focusing on the economic reasons for the increasing numbers ofpeople who are choosing not to have children, the underlying factor may simply be that they find no meaning in it.


That need is for meaning. In trying to solve the fertility puzzle, thinkers have cited people’s concerns over finances, climate change, political instability, or even potential war. But in listening closely to people’s stories, I’ve detected a broader thread of uncertainty—about the value of life and a reason for being. Many in the current generation of young adults don’t seem totally convinced of their own purpose or the purpose of humanity at large, let alone that of a child. It may be that for many people, absent a clear sense of meaning, the perceived challenges of having children outweigh any subsidy the government might offer.

First question: What do you guys think about this hypothesis that the lowering birth rate is because people find lack of meaning in having children and perhaps even in their own lives?

Second question is:
Many people believe that birth rate decline is a crisis because there won't be enough workers to cover the nation's economic/workforce needs
Many people believe that birth rate increase is a crisis becuase the more the population rises, the faster the Earth will be plundered--the Malthusian approach.

Then there's my permaculture teacher, who believes that the size of the population is not the primary issue--it's the rate of consumption that's the issue--the Daniel Quinn "leavers and takers" approach. Our individual footprints are too large, and that's what we have to reduce.

Which "crisis" is the biggest one: the deline of population, the increase of population, or the rampant overshoot of our ecological footprints?

[ToomuchStuff]

Why can't it be both?

[catherine]

Why can't it be both?

I guess because prioritizing the bigger issue will prioritize the solution.

[iris lilies]

About finding meaning: the Harvard professor of “ happiness” says tech devices engage our part of the brain that does not, for lack of my better explanation, appreciate human connection and validation. This is why so many young people apparently are having trouble finding meaning in their lives.

[catherine]

About finding meaning: the Harvard professor of “ happiness” says tech devices engage our part of the brain that does not, for lack of my better explanation, appreciate human connection and validation. This is why so many young people apparently are having trouble finding meaning in their lives.

Interesting. Is that Harvard professor Martin Seligman? Just curious. I think social media may be part of it--I also think it's the drive for "meaningful" experiences, whether or not they may prove to be meaningful.

[iris lilies]

Interesting. Is that Harvard professor Martin Seligman? Just curious. I think social media may be part of it--I also think it's the drive for "meaningful" experiences, whether or not they may prove to be meaningful.
It is Dr. Albert Brooks.

[catherine]

It is Dr. Albert Brooks.

Thanks. I'll look him up.

[Rogar]

It sometimes seems like a catch 22. The smaller the family size, the more spendable incomes people have to consume. Between AI and immigration I think there will be plenty of people to fill the work force.

I would lean towards saying the problem is gross consumption regardless of population size.

[iris lilies]

Thanks. I'll look him up.


NO wait: it is Arthur Brooks.

I heard him yesterday on Dr. Delony’s podcast. Brooks also had interesting things to say about sociologists and their basic assumptions going into research.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GHAKqYwN9cQ

[catherine]

NO wait: it is Arthur Brooks.

I heard him yesterday on Dr. Delony’s podcast. Brooks also had interesting things to say about sociologists and their basic assumptions going into research.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GHAKqYwN9cQ

Thanks! is that the Dave Ramsey Dr. Delony?? Anyway, it looks like a great episode for me to watch since I'll be married 50 years in a little over 2 years.

I know I've read Arthur Brooks but I can't remember where or when or why, but I just looked him up and I love this idea of the reverse bucket list.

https://youtu.be/vGBVf1wwAj0

Thanks for posting the Delony video. I'll definitely watch this week although I hope I've learned everything I need to for a sustainable relationship. I could probably do my own podcast on that.

[iris lilies]

Thanks! is that the Dave Ramsey Dr. Delony?? Anyway, it looks like a great episode for me to watch since I'll be married 50 years in a little over 2 years.

I know I've read Arthur Brooks but I can't remember where or when or why, but I just looked him up and I love this idea of the reverse bucket list.

https://youtu.be/vGBVf1wwAj0

Thanks for posting the Delony video. I'll definitely watch this week although I hope I've learned everything I need to for a sustainable relationship. I could probably do my own podcast on that.

yep, it is John Delony from
the Ramsey show. I think he is sometimes brilliant. Seldom is he off the mark in his advice, IMHO.

This podcast is for your kids! And their kids.

[iris lilies]

As to Catherine’s original question: I find it impossible to reconcile projections of

1. We will not have enough workers in the future and
2. We will have to pay everyone Universal
basic income because most of the jobs will be automated, people will not have jobs

So, I have no opinion.

[ToomuchStuff]

As to Catherine’s original question: I find it impossible to reconcile projections of

1. We will not have enough workers in the future and
2. We will have to pay everyone Universal
basic income because most of the jobs will be automated, people will not have jobs

So, I have no opinion.
If we do not have enough people then our population will decrease because people won't get the care needed (medically), so the population self corrects. What will be the effect of automation and lower income populations?

[gimmethesimplelife]

As a gay man with straight male MGTOW friends I find this topic fascinating. Simply put, it seems that many straight men have given up on dating/relationships/marriage/fatherhood. Can you blame them?

The above prospects in an era of me too, no fault divorce and alimony/child support in a country of turbo charged capitalism and declining standards of living and diminished opportunities for most - what sane man, after doing a cost/benefit analysis, would sign up for this today?

Want this to change? Until there is true equality upon divorce, and family law courts overhauled to be less anti male and alimony scrapped in the cases of both partners working and no fault divorce scrapped - expect even less straight male participation in these areas.

Ladies of this board - please don't hate me. As a gay man I am a tourist to these issues so I thought I'd drop some truths I've learned from straight men - fairly successful and attractive ones, too. Men's issues need to be taken just as seriously as women's - until such a date, continue to expect more men becoming Passport Bros or just giving up on this part of life entirely. In the current climare it is in straight male best interest to do so. And I don't believe one word here has been misogonistic (sp?). It is no longer 1950 - and this is not ALL bad. These changes have allowed me to be legally married to a wonderful man. As I said, I am a tourist to these issues. Rob

[LDAHL]

If you’re afraid of marriage and fatherhood because you’re concerned about a costly divorce down the line, then you probably aren’t a suitable candidate for forming a family. If you’re afraid to have children because of the possible challenges of the future, then you should leave the next generation to braver, more optimistic people.

[gimmethesimplelife]

If you’re afraid of marriage and fatherhood because you’re concerned about a costly divorce down the line, then you probably aren’t a suitable candidate for forming a family. If you’re afraid to have children because of the possible challenges of the future, then you should leave the next generation to braver, more optimistic people.As I stated above, as a gay man I am a tourist to issues. But this is what I have been told is commonplace amongst straight men eligible to play the game in first place. I will say that if being with a man were fraught with this level of risk I'd steer clear and devote these energies elsewhere. This citizenship is already enough risk for me. Rob

[Rogar]

As I stated above, as a gay man I am a tourist to issues. But this is what I have been told is commonplace amongst straight men eligible to play the game in first place. I will say that if being with a man were fraught with this level of risk I'd steer clear and devote these energies elsewhere. This citizenship is already enough risk for me. Rob

I think there is a growing trend for both men and women to remain single and/or childless. At least I've seen articles in the NYT as such. I can imagine there are ugly things like the divorce rate that may be part of things, but I also think there are cultural expectations of the traditional family unit as the norm that have changed and are less the social demand now. I think career demands of both working spouses could be part of it, but there are probably sociological experts that have sliced and diced the causes. As a single heterosexual male, and fairly comfortable with that, there would probably be a time when I'd be an outlier or worse. The male version of an "old maid". I think it is good that society has become more accepting of the various permutations of relationships. If I did an informal survey of my married associations, maybe as many as half have stayed in their marriage for financial reasons or for the children, but have some basic core dissatisfactions with their relationships. It seems less so in older couples who have gotten used to their spouses shortcomings, real or imagined.

[Tybee]

My take on this is that the Atlantic and the Times are always reporting on a very narrow sliver of people and presenting their experience as the cultural zeitgeist, which the rest of society goes on reproducing as usual. I think the birth rate normalizes to whatever the situation is through mechanisms we don't yet recognize.

[pinkytoe]

I think the birth rate normalizes to whatever the situation is through mechanisms we don't yet recognize.
I agree this is probably true. We humans tend to think we are in control/responsible for all mechanisms. If I were young, I would also probably question procreating given that we are bombarded with negative news from every corner of the world. If you tune that out though, fall in love and imagine how wonderful a family and future would be with that person and plan for it responsibly, then go for it. I never regret having a child and now grandchildren to see the future I will never know. Also, there is something very special about being partnered for a long time and learning to love your partner til the end, faults and all.

[bae]

As a gay man with straight male MGTOW friends I find this topic fascinating.

The MGTOW community is a bit…problematic.

I’m quite glad men of that mindset are not pursuing long term relationships. Probably best for us all.

[Tybee]

Amen.

[ToomuchStuff]

6048

MG tow?

Divorce is a thing that is too easy to initiate. A lot of times the consequences fall unfairly. Then you have paternity questions that should be answered by law at birth, IMHO. No fault divorce, my tuchus. Why not have marriage certificates that expire then? Must be renewed. Seems a bit more logical.

[iris lilies]

6048

MG tow?

Divorce is a thing that is too easy to initiate. A lot of times the consequences fall unfairly. Then you have paternity questions that should be answered by law at birth, IMHO. No fault divorce, my tuchus. Why not have marriage certificates that expire then? Must be renewed. Seems a bit more logical.

how did I miss THIS play on words? Haha

signed iris, former MG owner