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jp1
11-9-24, 9:43pm
This is probably the best post mortem I've read so far.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/08/opinion/republicans-democrats-trump.html?unlocked_article_code=1.YU4.bMMb.MYLSD9 3omXcK&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

For those who don't know, the concept of "fourth turnings" is that society moves through a cycle of roughly 80-100 year cycles with things happening based on how the current leaders lead and run things, which they do based on what was going on when they were children. A book was written about this back in the 90's. Basically children who lived through a fourth turning, by the time they are middle aged and in charge of society's institutions, lead with integrity and an interest in preserving what exists. Children that grew up after the last fourth turning have no such compunction. Greed and corruption run rampant. Eventually another fourth turning happens because the same basic issues that caused the last one cause the next one. The one constant in fourth turnings is that many of society's institutions get destroyed and replaced by something new. The previous fourth turnings in the US were the revolutionary war, the civil war and the great depression/WW II.

I’ve long thought the current system has failed a lot of average folks. The fact that zero bank execs went broke or to jail after 2008 while millions of average Americans lost their homes made clear that we were in a failed system.

Among all the changes that happen in one the previous fourth turnings have vanquished the previous folks that benefited financially from the existing systems. The British after the revolutionary war. The slave owners after the civil war. The bankers after the Great Depression. This one will be no different.

The one thing that is super scary about fourth turnings is that the end result may not be better than what it replaces. Just look at Russia's past two fourth turnings for cautionary tales. The 1917 revolution resulted in the Soviet Union. The end of the soviet union in the 90's resulted in what they have now where a few oligarchs hoovered up massive assets to become absurdly wealthy and control everything. We could very well end up with a society more resembling the current state of Russia than a renewed FDR New Deal society when all is said and done.

LDAHL
11-9-24, 10:58pm
People are always claiming to discern patterns and cycles in history: Polybius, Kondratieff, Marx, Toynbee, Strauss & Howe. It all strikes me as pseudoscience.

jp1
11-9-24, 11:15pm
People are always claiming to discern patterns and cycles in history: Polybius, Kondratieff, Marx, Toynbee, Strauss & Howe. It all strikes me as pseudoscience.

I’m not remotely surprised that you feel that way. You also think that our constitution will always endure even with a president who has no legal constraints.

catherine
11-9-24, 11:30pm
Tha Law of Entropy isn't pseudo-science, and that basicaly what the Fourth Turning is.

iris lilies
11-10-24, 12:05am
People are always claiming to discern patterns and cycles in history: Polybius, Kondratieff, Marx, Toynbee, Strauss & Howe. It all strikes me as pseudoscience.

That’s what humans do, though, seek patterns.We are wired for that. I suppose sometimes that serves us and sometimes it doesn’t.

LDAHL
11-10-24, 12:33am
I’m not remotely surprised that you feel that way. You also think that our constitution will always endure even with a president who has no legal constraints.

Not always, perhaps, but certainly longer than Donald Trump.

I’m foolishly naive enough to believe that legal and constitutional constraints actually do exist for the office of president. They functioned to limit the actions of both Trump and Biden in recent memory.

I’m even so ridiculously optimistic as to not share your belief that the New York Times is MAGA.

Tybee
11-10-24, 7:10am
Well God help us, that's all I can say.

jp1
11-10-24, 12:52pm
Tha Law of Entropy isn't pseudo-science, and that basicaly what the Fourth Turning is.

Yes, combined with the fact that to a child everything around them is normal because they don't know anything else and that that "normal" becomes the baseline normal for the rest of their life. If you grew up during the depression you realize forever that there's a possibility of mass poverty with lots of families going hungry and struggling, or failing, to keep a roof over their heads. When you become an adult you don't take for granted the government programs and services that make that not happen. If you grew up during the period following the great depression your "normal" is a time when almost anyone who wanted to could get a decent job and keep their family fed and housed. So now you look at all those institutions and you question the bits and pieces that are suboptimal. So a sizable number of them take time to protest. Protest the war. Protest for civil rights. Protest for women's rights. Protest for LGBT rights. Confident that at any point in time they can make the decision to get a job and get on with life. And so on, with each generation reacting differently as adults because of the "normal" during their childhood. And then eventually society gets to the point that all the people who lived during the great depression are dead or extremely old and not at all influential in the leadership of society. Trust in society and government, declining for decades, is at rock bottom and people want dramatic change. Apparently this time around it means they vote for a twice impeached, morally bankrupt, ethically unconstrained, 34x convicted felon, hoping that somehow he will make things better because he's not a "Washington insider".

We've got our Herbert Hoover. Now the only question is who will arise to become our generation's FDR. And will they be more like FDR or Vladimir Putin.

frugal-one
11-10-24, 2:59pm
Well God help us, that's all I can say.

Amen!

iris lilies
11-10-24, 3:03pm
JP clued me into your thinking, who is our Herbert Hoover?

jp1
11-10-24, 5:29pm
JP clued me into your thinking, who is our Herbert Hoover?


Donald Trump. If he follows through with his economy destroying plans of deporting half our construction and farm labor and instituting a global trade war.

iris lilies
11-10-24, 5:34pm
Donald Trump. If he follows through with his economy destroying plans of deporting half our construction and farm labor and instituting a global trade war.
Oh. Ok.