View Full Version : Government Coup
frugal-one
3-23-25, 4:38pm
Way off topic…ha!
littlebittybobby
3-26-25, 3:06pm
okay---as i said elsewhere on this board, i recently acquired a '79 k10 pickup from a local rancher/farmer, who'd had it sitting with a broken motor & other stuff, for prolly a year. He'd owned it since 2007, used it in and on the farm, and replaced it with a 75-model k20. He gave the tailgate away to a friend, and used the alternator on the 75. But yeah----sitting in his driveway was a very late-model something or other Monster Pickup, all clean and shiny. Don't wanna get that beauty dirty & dented, doing chores. Nope. to be continued...
littlebittybobby
3-26-25, 9:59pm
Okay----I "forgot" to tell you kids about another classic chevy C-30 that I purchased last fall. It's another "fixer upper" that I started working on last week. Its an 81 C20, former bell tell lift truck. But yeah--it has a "bucket" which extends about 30' in the air. It's got a damn good motor in 'er, buddy. Thing just needs some work. I removed the exhaust system a previous owner had put on it; I changed the drivers' and passenger door, for some used, but good used, doors I've had here for 20 years. To be continued on this......,.
Wait for this month. Saw trump today say he inherited a bad economy. BS … he inherited record high stock market and jobs … trump’s m.o. is to blame everyone but himself. We WERE the envy of the world. Now despised! All this chaos in only 2 months!
Up 228,000 in March jobs report.
I'm thinking it will take a while for all the tariff ordeals to filter down to the consumer buying level and employment or unemployment figures. A news brief I saw to day was a concern in Europe that China will start unloading cheap Chinese products on their markets, now.
6299
Here is another thing affected by the crazy president. This is one article among many about the "dumping of US debt" and its effect on the economy.
https://www.france24.com/en/business/20250412-investors-dump-us-government-bonds-faith-america-falters-tariffs-trump
This article has a little more explanation and is not quite as the sky is falling right now.
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2025/4/14/can-china-use-us-debt-in-its-tariff-war-against-the-us
iris lilies
4-15-25, 7:30am
Here is another thing affected by the crazy president. This is one article among many about the "dumping of US debt" and its effect on the economy.
https://www.france24.com/en/business/20250412-investors-dump-us-government-bonds-faith-america-falters-tariffs-trump
This article has a little more explanation and is not quite as the sky is falling right now.
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2025/4/14/can-china-use-us-debt-in-its-tariff-war-against-the-us
it is all so ugh, this financial world stuff.
I have to admit that the cartoon Roger displays in post # 255 is a bit about me.
frugal-one
4-15-25, 10:24am
I just wish he would as gone! I miss Biden! The constant chaos now is wearing!
iris lilies
4-15-25, 10:29am
I just wish he would as gone! I miss Biden! The constant chaos now is wearing!
The markets do not like instability.
I just wish he would as gone! I miss Biden! The constant chaos now is wearing!
Trump is infuriating. Biden was just depressing. For that last year or two he was president only in the sense that those Blue Origin ladies were crew members.
It is a little nauseating to see all the coverup participants cashing in with book deals.
frugal-one
4-16-25, 5:23pm
Trump is infuriating. Biden was just depressing. For that last year or two he was president only in the sense that those Blue Origin ladies were crew members.
It is a little nauseating to see all the coverup participants cashing in with book deals.
The stock market was the highest ever. He handed trump a great economy that is now going down the toilet. Biden tried to help people, unlike trump who is now taking a chainsaw to our government and causing chaos and havoc. trump said he was going to be a dictator on day one. He is following through …
I see where there will be a vote on Congress soon to stop funding NPR and PBS. They get the majority of their funding from corporate sponsors and private donors, but what the news is saying is that it would affect coverage to some of the stations in more rural areas and there would be cutbacks. I depend on NPR as a primary source of news. Not so much so for PBS, but their hosting of Masterpiece and kids programing are popular, and the Ken Burns series and other programs are favorites. Their news features are admittedly leaning a bit to the left, but not a whole lot. I could understand where it might be on the fringe of government responsibilities to fund TV and Radio that might not be terribly different from ABC or NBC, but without the annoying ads and mostly worthless programing. In the big scheme of cutbacks it might not top the list, but an an unfortunate. Maybe it won't pass.
Trump's big post,
"REPUBLICANS MUST DEFUND AND TOTALLY DISASSOCIATE THEMSELVES FROM NPR & PBS, THE RADICAL LEFT 'MONSTERS' THAT SO BADLY HURT OUR COUNTRY!"
The stock market was the highest ever. He handed trump a great economy that is now going down the toilet. Biden tried to help people, unlike trump who is now taking a chainsaw to our government and causing chaos and havoc. trump said he was going to be a dictator on day one. He is following through …
The major indexes were their “highest ever” in the November-February period after Biden’s lame duck status was priced in. Not that I think short term stock performance correlates all that closely with presidential policies.
I do think presidents can affect the economy for better or worse, especially in the long term, but it’s only one set of factors out of many. If Trump actually follows through on his tariff bluster, it could be one of the most significant acts of economic self-sabotage since the New Deal.
What bedeviled the Biden people on the economic front was voters simply refusing to believe the spin that the recovery from the Covid period was due to the Administration’s masterful handling of the economy. Calling a massive spending bill the Inflation Reduction Act didn’t help their credibility much either.
Some could quibble over the Biden policies and the record stock market and prospering economy. One point of view is that Trump 1.0 ran a hot economy with tax breaks and historically low interest rates rates, and it took Biden four years to fix Trumps blunder's and the after effects of covid. It's the view I have, but there's room for pontification otherwise.
However, in Trump's case there's little room for discussion. Trump's tariffs and instability are heading us into a recession. Common expert thought is 50-60% chance. And that's not including the more remote odds of a collapse of the bond market. I've not heard talk of China dumping their US bonds, but I'll bet it's crossed their minds.
Maybe AOC will have to fix the Trump 2.0 mess: - )
catherine
4-17-25, 10:40pm
1. So apparently Musk has gutted AmeriCorps, putting 75% of the employees on leave. Three of my kids were active participants of AmeriCorps. It's a great program that benefits many communities and gives young people a chance to serve in meaningful ways. This is a real shame.
2. Tonight I went to University of Vermont for a Master Gardener meeting. When we got a tour of the helpline office, the director of the program told us that one of the resources that the MGs used to be able to consult for advice and guidance, who happened to be a an agribulstural research scientist, has been let go due to DOGE cuts.
I do not understand the purpose of culling vast numbers of public servants without discerning the value they provide to the social fabric. It is making me sick.
It is making me sick. I am also feeling ill about all this as if I can't quite wake up from a bad dream.
iris lilies
4-18-25, 7:55am
1. So apparently Musk has gutted AmeriCorps, putting 75% of the employees on leave. Three of my kids were active participants of AmeriCorps. It's a great program that benefits many communities and gives young people a chance to serve in meaningful ways. This is a real shame.
2. Tonight I went to University of Vermont for a Master Gardener meeting. When we got a tour of the helpline office, the director of the program told us that one of the resources that the MGs used to be able to consult for advice and guidance, who happened to be a an agribulstural research scientist, has been let go due to DOGE cuts.
I do not understand the purpose of culling vast numbers of public servants without discerning the value they provide to the social fabric. It is making me sick.
Anything I say as an objective observation about this whole phenomenon will seem like I’m defending it, and I’m not, but I will push forward anyway.
I can’t speak to Americorps. But for the other thing, I would imagine that and many other services like that have been taken over by the federal government. If they’re important to a state, the state needs to fund it. States will say “we can’t afford it. “
The states have been balancing their budget on the back of the federal government. Most of our 50 states have balanced budget requirements. The federal government does not. Look where that’s got us.
Anything I say as an objective observation about this whole phenomenon will seem like I’m defending it, and I’m not, but I will punch forward anyway.
I can’t speak to Americorps. But for the other thing, I would imagine that and many other services like that have been taken over by the federal government. If they’re important to a state, the state needs to fund it. States will say “we can’t afford it. “
The states have been balancing their budget on the back of the federal government. Most of our 50 states have balanced budget requirements. The federal government does not. Look where that’s got us.
I am not saying that budgets shouldn't be scrutinized but the problem is they aren't being scrutinized.
As far as AmeriCorps goes, by definition it is a Federal program. But for very little government investment it yielded a tremendous amount of social service where it's needed. For example, my daughter's first job out of college was working, through AmeriCorps, to support a NYC NGO that provides food pantries and soup kitchens to New Yorkers living in poverty. She worked full time and her AmeriCorps stipend was $2k a month. She lived in Manhattan for $2k a month! I was so proud of her but still don't know how she did it (although the seedy co-housing apartments she lived in in nasty Brooklyn neighborhoods was a clue). So it was a win-win-win-win. Win for the government--they simply supported the NGO with a small investment. Win for the NGO, they got the support they needed. Win for the idealistic college grad--getting a small amount of money to help other people. Win for the people they all helped. I guess you could say you don't like the fact that your taxpayer dollars, as a MO resident, fed poor people in NY, but I'm sure there are worthwhile programs in MO that my VT taxpayer dollars have gone to support.
But the bottom line is, I hate this slash-and-burn methodology.
We could take this discussion agency by agency and say that they all belong to the states, but in many cases in which DOGE has had their way, that just isn't reasonable or feasible.
Anything I say as an objective observation about this whole phenomenon will seem like I’m defending it, and I’m not, but I will push forward anyway.
I can’t speak to Americorps. But for the other thing, I would imagine that and many other services like that have been taken over by the federal government. If they’re important to a state, the state needs to fund it. States will say “we can’t afford it. “
The states have been balancing their budget on the back of the federal government. Most of our 50 states have balanced budget requirements. The federal government does not. Look where that’s got us.
Would it be reasonable to imagine then, that our federal taxes will decrease and our state taxes increase as they reconfigure programs?
iris lilies
4-18-25, 2:19pm
Would it be reasonable to imagine then, that our federal taxes will decrease and our state taxes increase as they reconfigure programs?
Perhaps, at least your state taxes would increase. I would want any excess federal money to go to the national debt. so if there are savings, put it to good use as Dave Ramsey would say about our household budgets.
And state budgets and legislators are closer to us, we can look with better scrutiny at state programs and services.
frugal-one
4-19-25, 2:07pm
Perhaps, at least your state taxes would increase. I would want any excess federal money to go to the national debt. so if there are savings, put it to good use as Dave Ramsey would say about our household budgets.
And state budgets and legislators are closer to us, we can look with better scrutiny at state programs and services.
Dream on…. You are also forgetting economies of scale.
iris lilies
4-19-25, 7:30pm
Perhaps, at least your state taxes would increase. I would want any excess federal money to go to the national debt. so if there are savings, put it to good use as Dave Ramsey would say about our household budgets.
And state budgets and legislators are closer to us, we can look with better scrutiny at state programs and services.
Dream on…. You are also forgetting economies of scale.
And you are forgetting the bureaucrats’ regulations that turn a $20 hammer into a $165 hammer.
frugal-one
4-19-25, 10:36pm
[QUOTE=frugal-one;445060]
And you are forgetting the bureaucrats’ regulations that turn a $20 hammer into a $165 hammer.
It will only get worse IMO.
At one time I was in charge of ordering laboratory supplies for a private lab with a big company. If an order came in with damaged product or something sent in mistake, I was told not to return it if the value was less than $75. And that was sometime ago. The explanation was that the paper work and time going through purchasing, arranging for return shipping, shipping and packaging costs, and any accounting for overhead might be as much as $75.
No expert opinions on those expensive hammers and toilets the government buys, but there are some accounting tricks that could make those things seem unreasonably expensive if someone wants to make a point.
iris lilies
4-20-25, 9:22am
At one time I was in charge of ordering laboratory supplies for a private lab with a big company. If an order came in with damaged product or something sent in mistake, I was told not to return it if the value was less than $75. And that was sometime ago. The explanation was that the paper work and time going through purchasing, arranging for return shipping, shipping and packaging costs, and any accounting for overhead might be as much as $75.
No expert opinions on those expensive hammers and toilets the government buys, but there are some accounting tricks that could make those things seem unreasonably expensive if someone wants to make a point.
Oh, sure, errors and damages in procurement can cost a lot to resolve. My department spent $2.5 million annually in library acquisitions and damaged shipments oR incorrect ones were often refunded by the vendors without returning the bad product. Too expensive for them to do otherwise.
I have read that regulations add much to the cost of these government buying contracts. Congress and the regulatory bodies do it to themselves demanding materials be sourced from a specific place and in a specific way. And then there are the requirements for using minority-owned businesses. I remember at my workplace for one painting job we went through 3 minority-owned painting companies before we could get someone to show up to fulfill their contract.
How many small businesses do ya’ll know are in the wife’s name? I know a few. They do that to meet the “minority owned” requirement to get government contracts, and by “government” I don’t mean exclusively federal contracts. Cities, counties, states have these same requirements.
Well, it sounds like you know why a $20 hammer costs the government much more and that it's not the allocation of overhead or supply chain costs, but minority contractors.
iris lilies
4-20-25, 3:02pm
Well, it sounds like you know why a $20 hammer costs the government much more and that it's not the allocation of overhead or supply chain costs, but minority contractors.
No THE cause of expensive hammers is not minority contractors but that requirement is one of thousands that may thwart efficiency.
Yesterday while on errands public radio announced that "The Hill" has laid off the staff's of their DEI, climate, and migration departments, supposedly to keep on the king's good side. Then while watching 60 minutes, which had been a routine in my house for a long time, there was an excellent feature on the services that were being cut from the NIH. Research and trials for things like dementia and cancer. Thousands of jobs and billions in research. Then, at the end, Scott Pelley gave an emotional goodbye to their 37 year executive producer, Bill Owens. Owens resigned due to increasing pressure from their parent company, Paramount, to control content. My bit of looking up said much of it goes back to the 10 billion dollar frivolous law suit against 60 minutes over the Harris interview. Catching up local news, Colorado Public Radio's web sight had an appeal to save Public radio from cutbacks.
I don't subscribe, but check on the Washington Post headlines occasionally. Ss far as I can tell, they still seem fairly objective, despite Bezos. I've never seen "X", but gather it's no spot for gathering news, but more like a place for high level people to squabble. It does seem to have a large following, for what reason I'm not sure. I assume Hannity and Tucker Carlson still have popularity in spreading conspiracy theory, even though they now have their way if things. I'm starting to wonder if independent news coverage will come from places like substack. I've not seen any changes in the NYT reporting, but Krugman left under increasing control of content from their management.
I'm starting to wonder if independent news coverage will come from places like substack. I've not seen any changes in the NYT reporting, but Krugman left under increasing control of content from their management.
Yes, as I was reading your post, I was thinking, "thank God for Substack!" That's where the media refugees are fleeing. Their content (i.e., Krugman, Dan Rather) is just as good, if not better, as it was when it was under the management of their bosses. I like Krugman unleashed and Rather unleashed (Dan Rather's substack is called "Steady").Of course, there are many more less well-known journalists taking advantage of YouTube for news commentary.
Other substackers I follow are
Heather Cox Richardson
Meidas Touch Network
Silver Bulletin
As LDAHL pointed out in a previous post, Substack is heavily left, from what I can see. Maybe I just haven't come across the conservative substackers.
Aside from the political substacks, there are many other excellent writers in all fields.
iris lilies
4-28-25, 9:12am
Substack may be heavily left but I don’t recognize that because I subscribe to a few writers in the “trans critical space” (correct speak to make you all happy) so I don’t get those messages.
If news folks are all of a sudden getting pushed and prodded to get more in line with editorial right thinking, I would welcome them to the club that Bari Weiss and Uri Berliner among others founded.
And I guess Rumble is politically Right ? I don’t know, I just catch Russell Brand now and then on You Tube and he posts all of his content on Rumble. Last week I learned DH listens to Rumble, a particular nutjob person whose name I can’t pronounce who make an unlistenable podcast.
6311
Christmas shortages due to tariffs:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/29/opinion/tariffs-business-trump-voter.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/29/business/trump-tariffs-christmas-china.html
Ports waiting for the fallout on west coast.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/29/business/tariffs-china-ports-imports.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Ports waiting for the fallout on west coast.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/29/business/tariffs-china-ports-imports.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
By way of anecdote, from my living room I can see cargo ships as they come and go through the Strait of Juan de Fuca. They generally, once through, head south to Seattle/Tacoma, or north up to Vancouver BC and the cargo handling facilities there.
They mostly seem to be heading north these days.
The vessel-tracking tools I use show the Port of Seattle with very few ships at the cargo facilities. Almost empty compared to normal, it seems. Maybe it's seasonal, but...
Whereas Vancouver's ports look quite busy.
rosarugosa
4-30-25, 6:17am
Christmas shortages due to tariffs:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/29/opinion/tariffs-business-trump-voter.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/29/business/trump-tariffs-christmas-china.html
I guess this is one way to decrease the commercialization of Christmas.
iris lilies
4-30-25, 7:09am
I guess this is one way to decrease the commercialization of Christmas.right! And reduce the amount of cheap crap from China, I mean stuff that no one needs.
my main source of doll clothes is China vendors. They design and sell nice quality clothes and they are not cheap, but I won’t be paying 145% more.
I see IL has bought into the fiction that cheap crap is the only stuff China exports.
iris lilies
4-30-25, 8:05am
I see IL has bought into the fiction that cheap crap is the only stuff China exports.
No, not at all! But all of the cheap crap I am thinking of is not made in the U.S. It may not all be
china-made but it comes from that part of the world.
On the other hand, the aforementioned doll clothes I buy from China are Artisan because they are designed with imagination and made by hand with meticulous attention to detail. These are not doll clothes from a giant Mattel factory. They remind me of Barbie doll clothes from the early 1960’s when real fabrics like cottons and velvets were used with buttons and lace in scale.
The news I've seen says that the turnaround time from loading in China to arrive on US shelves is about 6 or 8 weeks. So tariffs went into effect on 4/2 for many things...
It's too bad the idea of Amazon showing the tariff amount of a selling price was somehow nixed. I thought the press secretary Leavitt was going to blow a cortex talking about how it was some sort of vicious political plot. It would be nice if some of the big box stores would take up on the idea, although they are probably cowering in fear over retribution and law suits. It's not just plastic toys, but washer and driers and other major purchases.
I really liked this idea of Amazon's.
catherine
4-30-25, 10:21am
I really liked this idea of Amazon's.
I did, too! So, do you think Bezos was planning to do that company-wide and folded after the call with Trump, or do you think it really was just meant for the smaller cheap spinoff sites?
I did, too! So, do you think Bezos was planning to do that company-wide and folded after the call with Trump, or do you think it really was just meant for the smaller cheap spinoff sites?
I read Amazon had only intended to show the tariff cost on Haul, their pretty new Temu-type section. This section is only on their app, not on website.
I was curious. On the Amazon site on my computer where it says Search Amazon, there is a dropdown arrow next to that window that says All as a default. You can drop down to Amazon Haul there. It's really cheap stuff.
I'd think Bezos would know that if he did this site wide it would raise the ire of his pal Trump. Seems like people should have visibility to the tariff charges, although maybe the empty selves and high prices will say enough. It's sort of like a sales tax, but they are hiding how much it is.
Ah, OK. I had heard that Haul was only on the Amazon app. Maybe that was just during the original rollout.
It’s apparently a separate entity from regular Amazon. At least they have separate shopping carts.
It’s REALLY cheap stuff.
It’s apparently a separate entity from regular Amazon. At least they have separate shopping carts.
It’s REALLY cheap stuff.
Yea, it’s supposed to compete with Temu and Shein.
It’s apparently a separate entity from regular Amazon. At least they have separate shopping carts.
It’s REALLY cheap stuff.
So if I need even cheaper, crappier, crap, I could get it there?
My customers who import toys and furniture from China are now investigating Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, India, Indonesia. The toy company had already brought in occasional shipments from Indonesia, but are seeing about bringing in more from Indonesia to replace China. The problem is that these other countries don’t have the factory capacity or infrastructure to deal with a ton more manufacturing at this time.
I’m amazed at the number of people I’m seeing online who are cheering for American small businesses to go under because they imported from China. These people are generally rural or small town, in the south/Great Plains, and not educated.
So if I need even cheaper, crappier, crap, I could get it there?
My take was that it's the same cheap stuff as regular Amazon, but it's all in one place and on markdown. Like Trump said, kids will have to make due with 2 Barbies instead of 30 and they might cost a little more.
The investment gurus on network TV were also recommending Indonesia for those wanting to play the market.
Sold all shares in Dollar Tree today. Can’t imagine they will continue to be profitable with the tariff debacle!
From an environmental point of view, I will not weep at drying up the supply of cheap disposable imported crap that ends up in landfills.
Sold all shares in Dollar Tree today. Can’t imagine they will continue to be profitable with the tariff debacle!
For sure.
I just bought a few shares of EBAY. It isn't doing very well right now, but we'll see--I just bought my granddaughters 1966 Barbies and a lot of 60-s and 70's Barbie clothes on Ebay. My son just bought bikes on Craigslist for them. Maybe the future is like Cuba, everyone recycling the same things with different owners.
I wouldn't buy a big position in either stock, that's for sure.
Explains the de minimis well
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/02/world/asia/tariffs-orders-packages-china-us.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Another article.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/02/business/economy/trump-china-tariffs-de-minimis.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
ToomuchStuff
5-3-25, 1:00pm
Sold all shares in Dollar Tree today. Can’t imagine they will continue to be profitable with the tariff debacle!
What about the stuff already in the country?
I have heard about at least three more Amazon package stores opening around my travel ground. Sounds like the stores are just changing and the thrift stores will be back to doing better c type of sales, soon.
What about the stuff already in the country?
I have heard about at least three more Amazon package stores opening around my travel ground. Sounds like the stores are just changing and the thrift stores will be back to doing better c type of sales, soon.
What about the stuff already in the country? It’s only going to last so long. My estimates are we’ll maybe start seeing shortages late May at the earliest. It really depends on how much retailers brought in before the tariffs took effect.
Announcement on WH website about China. Sounds like it's more of a plan of a plan, than an actual plan. Announcement tomorrow.
Here's something on it from Bloomberg via Wallstreetbets:
US, China to Cut Some Tariffs for 90 Days: Live News on Trade Talks - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live-blog/2025-05-11/us-china-trade-talks?utm_medium=deeplink)
Woke up at 2:40 am. Heard it on the BBC I was listening to then went to NYT. Surprised!
Woke up at 2:40 am. Heard it on the BBC I was listening to then went to NYT. Surprised!
I just read it in the paper. For better or worse, I still feel that this was all part of Trump's plan. A risky game, but a potentially lucrative one for those on the inside. Am I crazy?
You crash the market, your friends buy. You pump the market, your friends sell. You keep repeating.
You crash the market, your friends buy. You pump the market, your friends sell. You keep repeating.
Exactly.
ETA: Paul Krugman had a good headline for his substack on this topic: "When an Arsonist Poses as a Firefighter."
rosarugosa
5-13-25, 6:57am
Someone on the MMM forum made reference to a "chaos monkey" running the show in the US, and I thought that was such a perfect descriptor for DJT.
George Saunders (Lincoln at the Bardo) had a moving op-ed in the Times today about the dismissal of the head of the Library of Congress. Like many firings this administration has executed, that dismissal was so stupid and unnecessary and based on (surprise, surprise) lies or complete ignorance about what the Library of Congress is.
Maybe kids can have 15 dolls now?
Other than Trump throwing his weight around, it doesn't look like the China tariff threat has accomplished much. Local news featured a small business owner depending on imports who had laid off a few long time employees anticipating the more drastic traffic rate. It's probably all causing a huge headache for the port authorities.
Maybe kids can have 15 dolls now?
Other than Trump throwing his weight around, it doesn't look like the China tariff threat has accomplished much. Local news featured a small business owner depending on imports who had laid off a few long time employees anticipating the more drastic traffic rate. It's probably all causing a huge headache for the port authorities.
The doll thing sort of put me in mind of Bernie’s complaint that we had too many choices of underarm deodorant and sneakers. In terms of the economy, we might as well have elected one of the more reality-challenged Democrat.
Very interesting NYT article that breaks down the customs form that shows how crazy the China tariffs have gotten. Surprised to see the 7501/entry summary in the NYT!
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/14/business/economy/trump-china-tariffs-import-goods.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
George Saunders (Lincoln at the Bardo) had a moving op-ed in the Times today about the dismissal of the head of the Library of Congress. Like many firings this administration has executed, that dismissal was so stupid and unnecessary and based on (surprise, surprise) lies or complete ignorance about what the Library of Congress is.
Went to our local library today and there was a handout asking us to write our representatives. The illegal withholding of Maine's funding by the Institute of Museum and Library Services approved by Congress for 2025 has resulted in the closing of the Maine State Library to the public, along with the loss of 13 Maine State Library staff. (We tend to be a small state, and that's a lot.) This will affect things like interlibrary loan services, digital resources, internet access for libraries, and support services.
So yes, the harm done to the IMLS is already impacting our local, tiny library along with shuttering our state library.
How have we come to the point where a state library is dependent on federal whims for its very survival? At what point does federal funding become a means to subvert state sovereignty? The problem’s been there all along, but Trump is highlighting it for our brethren on the left. A central government that could pressure universities to dispense with due process for students accused of sex crimes can just as easily crack down them for failing to restrain their more enthusiastically antisemitic students.
I don't have a problem with governments endorsing and helping to support libraries, public broadcasting, ie culture. Things that enlighten and promote culture enrich a society IMO.
I had no clue that states get that much money from the feds.
early morning
5-14-25, 10:58am
re:
federal whimsThe federal government is not - was not- designed to operate on 'whims", but on sober consideration of the representatives sent by the member-states. There are always going to be disagreements on what is fair, right, and best for the "common good", and we've pretty much dealt with that as it happens. I think universities should be pretty much hands-off educationally, but should toe the line legally (due process for all students, and protection of their free speech rights, even if that speech is abhorrent).
Are you really saying that states should not be subject to federal oversight? that state law should not have to stay within the confines of constitutionality? I am not clear about your comment that federal funding is used to subvert state sovereignty. Yes, federal funds are used as a carrot, and as a cudgel. What would be your idea to make sure states comply with our constitution? Do we really want/can we survive 50 different sets of environmental standards? What about civil rights - should states be allowed to discriminate at will, and still receive federal funding for whatever? What other means is there, other than calling out the military, to enforce court orders or laws that have been deemed constitutional but are ignored by a (or several) state(s)?
iris lilies
5-14-25, 11:59am
I had no clue that states get that much money from the feds.
Most states have requirements to operate on a balanced budget. They mske up what they need/want with federal money.
It is not a good formula for anything other than getting Congressmen elected.
Most states have requirements to operate on a balanced budget. They mske up what they need/want with federal money.
It is not a good formula for anything other than getting Congressmen elected.
According to this article, 30% of the annual budget is funded by federal money:
Maine State Library issues layoffs due to federal funding issues | newscentermaine.com (https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/local/maine-state-library-issues-layoffs-inability-access-federal-funding/97-3adb5f7f-a6c1-42fe-a519-dc849384dd99)
re:The federal government is not - was not- designed to operate on 'whims", but on sober consideration of the representatives sent by the member-states. There are always going to be disagreements on what is fair, right, and best for the "common good", and we've pretty much dealt with that as it happens. I think universities should be pretty much hands-off educationally, but should toe the line legally (due process for all students, and protection of their free speech rights, even if that speech is abhorrent).
Are you really saying that states should not be subject to federal oversight? that state law should not have to stay within the confines of constitutionality? I am not clear about your comment that federal funding is used to subvert state sovereignty. Yes, federal funds are used as a carrot, and as a cudgel. What would be your idea to make sure states comply with our constitution? Do we really want/can we survive 50 different sets of environmental standards? What about civil rights - should states be allowed to discriminate at will, and still receive federal funding for whatever? What other means is there, other than calling out the military, to enforce court orders or laws that have been deemed constitutional but are ignored by a (or several) state(s)?
Looking at our recent history of government actions unsanctioned by law, such as DACA, student loan “forgiveness”, eviction moratoriums, and Trump’s crude brand of bureaucratic housecleaning, it’s hard to see the central government as the guardian of constitutional norms. That’s largely our fault for electing representatives too willing to defer to the executive branch and administrative agencies.
By taxing citizens of the various states and then parceling the money back to the states, the federal government imposes its will on far too many aspects of life. They make decisions for us that would be made much more intelligently on a local basis.
Most states have requirements to operate on a balanced budget. They mske up what they need/want with federal money.
It is not a good formula for anything other than getting Congressmen elected.
And despite that, there’s something like $3.5 trillion in outstanding state and local debt. There’s another $1.5 trillion or so in unfunded state and local pension obligations, and God knows how much in deferred infrastructure maintenance. The day is fast approaching when we will see massive bailout demands.
Along with the inexorable march towards Social Security insolvency, you would think the feds would have more important things to think about than pushing the culture in the desired direction.
frugal-one
5-14-25, 3:21pm
The doll thing sort of put me in mind of Bernie’s complaint that we had too many choices of underarm deodorant and sneakers. In terms of the economy, we might as well have elected one of the more reality-challenged Democrat.
Anyone better than djt
frugal-one
5-14-25, 3:27pm
Looking at our recent history of government actions unsanctioned by law, such as DACA, student loan “forgiveness”, eviction moratoriums, and Trump’s crude brand of bureaucratic housecleaning, it’s hard to see the central government as the guardian of constitutional norms. That’s largely our fault for electing representatives too willing to defer to the executive branch and administrative agencies.
By taxing citizens of the various states and then parceling the money back to the states, the federal government imposes its will on far too many aspects of life. They make decisions for us that would be made much more intelligently on a local basis.
Not necessarily true. Laws regarding safety of workers are a prime example!
I have to admit I didn't know there were so many DEI programs in governments, places getting government funding, and private corporations following suit. The news makes it sound like there were or are DEI programs requiring significant funding embedded nearly everywhere. I could suppose that some involve LBGQ issues, which seems to be a public opini9on hot button, but the majority focus on other minority or low income groups. One of my mega corp employers had some version of a quota system for hiring and promotions. I had some mixed feelings about it, but it wasn't a big issue and there was a pretty diverse workforce, which was sort of nice.
I have to admit I didn't know there were so many DEI programs in governments, places getting government funding, and private corporations following suit.
The fire department that I now run has a reasonably-comprehensive DEI program. It has increased our ability to recruit and retain volunteers, and improved our interactions with the community.
What does a "DEI program" look like in the workplace, to you?
What does a "DEI program" look like in the workplace, to you?
In my former workplace it involved training, hiring and promotional opportunities to minorities in order to have work force diversity proportionate to a general population. Generally speaking. Which in turn I imagine promoted a positive public image of the business. There was a time as the story goes, and before my time, that mid and upper management had very few minorities, which was eventually corrected through the program. Maybe there are other more broad definitions or examples?
In my day the term DEI wasn't used, it was affirmative action or some other euphemism.
I have done a couple of market research projects for pharmaceutical companies engaged in clinical trials. Basically, clinical trial participants are heavily skewed towards white males. So that means the clinical trial results may not be truly reflective of the general population because they can differ for people with various genetic profiles, so it is an issue of interest and concern. In particular, Black, Asian, and Latino/Hispanic communities aren't being recruited because it's faster to recruit white people, and also, there is a high degree of fear on the part of Black people due to historical abuses in clinical trials, and the Latino/Hispanic population is concerned about their data security.
I truly hope that this administration doesn't target DEI efforts in clinical trials.
I have done a couple of market research projects for pharmaceutical companies engaged in clinical trials. Basically, clinical trial participants are heavily skewed towards white males. So that means the clinical trial results may not be truly reflective of the general population because they can differ for people with various genetic profiles, so it is an issue of interest and concern. In particular, Black, Asian, and Latino/Hispanic communities aren't being recruited because it's faster to recruit white people, and also, there is a high degree of fear on the part of Black people due to historical abuses in clinical trials, and the Latino/Hispanic population is concerned about their data security.
I truly hope that this administration doesn't target DEI efforts in clinical trials.
But of course it will. The goal is to return everyone to a white-male dominated workplace and a white-male dominated culture. It is all about control.
We are of the age when women didn't get the jobs that enabled them to become financially independent. It was up to the white males who got "in". I know a lawyer who got fired because she got pregnant.
That was why it was so important to them to do things like remove the pictures of women who served, to fire the women they fired in high places.
Because those jobs belong to white males, in their paradigm.
But of course it will. The goal is to return everyone to a white-male dominated workplace and a white-male dominated culture. It is all about control.
We are of the age when women didn't get the jobs that enabled them to become financially independent. It was up to the white males who got "in". I know a lawyer who got fired because she got pregnant.
That was why it was so important to them to do things like remove the pictures of women who served, to fire the women they fired in high places.
Because those jobs belong to white males, in their paradigm.
When DH waxes nostalgic about "the good old days" meaning the 50s and 60s, I remind him that neither his mother nor mine felt those days were particularly good. Both our mothers wound up single parents at about the same age--early 40s--the best his mother was able to do was to get work as a sales clerk in Macy's, which she did for decades, until her talents were finally recognized and she became the Vice President of the department store worker's union.
My mother chose to remarry to survive, as she was having a tough time making it on $2.50 an hour as a bookkeeper for a local diner.
And our mothers were white! I hardly think the Black communities felt those were the good old days.
The current administration definitely seems to be out to turn back the hands of time and go back to handing all the power and all the advantages to white males. The tokenism in the Cabinet of Fox News-ready blonde and brunette plastic babes is just a shill.
I think you left out two letters--it's the blonde and brunette plastic Barbies, right?
I think you left out two letters--it's the blonde and brunette plastic Barbies, right?
haha, you're right--but he should be happy with only 3 dolls, right? I think he's exceeded his limit.
Too funny, and too right!
"What next" is all I can say.
So now, the Department of Homeland Security is talking about producing a reality show where three immigrants compete for citizenship?? And will Trump sit behind a desk and say "YOU'RE DEPORTED!" to the ones who don't make the cut? And will the person who wins be the ruthless one who turns in his fellow competitors?
I don't recognize this country anymore.
The investigation of Comey for showing a photo of sea shells arranged in "8647" as a threat to assassinate the president was pretty good one. Why these high profile guys dabble in trite social media is beyond me.
The investigation of Comey for showing a photo of sea shells arranged in "8647" as a threat to assassinate the president was pretty good one. Why these high profile guys dabble in trite social media is beyond me.
That was a stupid way to garner attention, especially since there have already been 2 attempts on Trump's life in the past year. And it's not even original! During the last year of Trump's first term Gretchen Whitmer had an 8645 emblem prominently displayed on her desk during a live appearance on 'Meet The Press'. TDS makes people stupid!
That was a stupid way to garner attention, especially since there have already been 2 attempts on Trump's life in the past year. And it's not even original! During the last year of Trump's first term Gretchen Whitmer had an 8645 emblem prominently displayed on her desk during a live appearance on 'Meet The Press'. TDS makes people stupid!
I think it is hilarious that they are "investigating" Comey, after turning all of those fine convicted Jan 6 "tourists" out on the street after they got a bit enthusiastic in their desire to meet Vice President Pence and such.
rosarugosa
5-17-25, 6:23am
"What next" is all I can say.
So now, the Department of Homeland Security is talking about producing a reality show where three immigrants compete for citizenship?? And will Trump sit behind a desk and say "YOU'RE DEPORTED!" to the ones who don't make the cut? And will the person who wins be the ruthless one who turns in his fellow competitors?
I don't recognize this country anymore.
I read two references to this on social media yesterday, and I fact-checked it because it could not possibly be true, right? There have been so many egregious offenses by this administration in such a short time, but for some reason this one really shook me to the core.
iris lilies
5-17-25, 7:35am
I read two references to this on social media yesterday, and I fact-checked it because it could not possibly be true, right? There have been so many egregious offenses by this administration in such a short time, but for some reason this one really shook me to the core.
Thats because you have probably read a dystopian novel that uses this very thing, a government sponsored reality show about hanging on to life, limb, and liberty. Kinda like Hunger Games.
Thats because you have probably read a dystopian novel that uses this very thing, a government sponsored reality show about hanging on to life, limb, and liberty. Kinda like Hunger Games.
Yes... Hunger Games it is! And add to that the Evangelicals trying to get women back to the kitchen where they belong, and we have Hunger Games meets A Handmaid's Tale.
That was a stupid way to garner attention, especially since there have already been 2 attempts on Trump's life in the past year. And it's not even original! During the last year of Trump's first term Gretchen Whitmer had an 8645 emblem prominently displayed on her desk during a live appearance on 'Meet The Press'. TDS makes people stupid!
Up until this week the only meaning of "86" I'd ever thought of is being removed from and establishment, probably a bar, for drunken disorderly conduct. That seems like the common sense version and hardly implies assassination, although the DOJ's Webster must use a different interpretation. And the reaction is more like a revenge motive than rational motive.
The game show does take the cake, though. Reminds me of The Hunger Games.
HappyHiker
5-17-25, 5:25pm
Yes... Hunger Games it is! And add to that the Evangelicals trying to get women back to the kitchen where they belong, and we have Hunger Games meets A Handmaid's Tale.
...but I never wanted to live inside a reality show or a dystopian novel...I wanted forward progress...what happened??
rosarugosa
5-18-25, 6:33am
...but I never wanted to live inside a reality show or a dystopian novel...I wanted forward progress...what happened??
Same. I'm currently reading the novel The German Wife. I'm at the point in the book where we are in Germany in the early 1930's and I can't help but be struck by how similar the vibe is to current times in the USA. It's not a good feeling.
sweetana3
5-18-25, 11:23am
What is the saying "those that forget history are doomed to repeat it" or something like that. Or is it lack of education, lack of healthy skepticism, lack of interest, sheep followers, or whatever. There is a healthy balance to almost anything that is missing in our politics.
Actual quote is "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
catherine
5-18-25, 11:46am
What is the saying "those that forget history are doomed to repeat it" or something like that. Or is it lack of education, lack of healthy skepticism, lack of interest, sheep followers, or whatever. There is a healthy balance to almost anything that is missing in our politics.
Actual quote is "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
You know how internet rabbit holes go--yesterday I found myself Wikipedi-ng Franco. Fascinating! I didn't realize he was in power for so long. What prompted me to look into him was a something on TV where Eva Longorio was talking about her show "Finding Spain" and how the regional cuisines (i.e. Basque) didn't return and flourish until after Franco died, because of the nationalistic culture he created.
I found a lot of scary similiarities between Franco's rise to power and what's happening here.
HappyHiker
5-19-25, 2:03pm
I've been reading about Viktor Orbán, the head of govt. in Hungary. His methodology in repression is darkly similar to what's happening here.
frugal-one
5-19-25, 4:08pm
https://indivisible.org/statements/indivisible-and-partners-announce-no-kings-nationwide-day-defiance-flag-day-during
Plan on protesting on June 14! No king’s day! Idiot trump wants to spend millions on a stupid parade but cuts funds for medicaid and food programs for children!
https://indivisible.org/statements/indivisible-and-partners-announce-no-kings-nationwide-day-defiance-flag-day-during
Plan on protesting on June 14! No king’s day! Idiot trump wants to spend millions on a stupid parade but cuts funds for medicaid and food programs for children!
I've signed up with our local chapter of Indivisible, so I know about No Kings Day. For an island with a small population, we have great representation.
Our chapter was only started a few weeks ago and we already have a logo and a website.
https://indivisibleci.com
frugal-one
5-19-25, 9:13pm
Every state has protested. Already has been too long for the idiot in charge. Just wish he would disappear! Everything is in a state of disaster now….
I thought the parade was to celebrate the US Army's 250th anniversary, which just happens to coincide with Trumps's birthday. https://www.army.mil/1775/
I thought the parade was to celebrate the US Army's 250th anniversary, which just happens to coincide with Trumps's birthday. https://www.army.mil/1775/
A President of integrity would let it be the Army's celebration instead of co-branding it, but that's what he's doing--self-serviing opportunist that he is.
A President of integrity would let it be the Army's celebration instead of co-branding it, but that's what he's doing--self-serviing opportunist that he is.
I wasn't aware of that. Perhaps it's time I update my resistance media reading list?
June 14 is also Flag Day. Is there no end to this man’s deviousness?
frugal-one
5-20-25, 3:02pm
June 14 is also Flag Day. Is there no end to this man’s deviousness?
I thought his point was to save money and lower the deficit? He is slashing much needed, life saving programs but has the audacity to even consider such a lavish amount to celebrate his birthday. That is really what this is all about, you know. Even if it wasn’t/isn’t we can’t afford it!
I thought his point was to save money and lower the deficit? He is slashing much needed, life saving programs but has the audacity to even consider such a lavish amount to celebrate his birthday. That is really what this is all about, you know. Even if it wasn’t/isn’t we can’t afford it!
Where does this “co-branding” accusation come from except calendrical happenstance? It reminds me of those folks who read dark meaning into the Trump/Vance team campaigning in a town that had a sunset law a century earlier.
I do agree that the GOP has become little better at fiscal restraint than those other people. Moody’s has just become the last of the big three credit rating agencies to downgrade US debt.
I honestly expected to hear more complaints about the cost of a parade, but it could be that Trump’s opposition is still smarting from those campaign ads about gender reassignment procedures for convicts and don’t want to get into a who’s-more-irresponsible contest.
I heard the cost of the parade would be between 25 and 50 million.
I'd personally prefer something like a Macy's parade over tanks and soldiers.
frugal-one
5-21-25, 3:11pm
There is no government efficiency! Just saw a news blurb that taxes will increase for lowest tenth of population but decrease for those with the highest wealth. Totally moronic!
There is no government efficiency! Just saw a news blurb that taxes will increase for lowest tenth of population but decrease for those with the highest wealth. Totally moronic!
That's interesting! Especially since the tax bill hasn't passed yet and negotiations on changes are still underway. I think the only thing we know for sure is that taxes will increase dramatically for everyone at the end of the year if they can't reach a compromise.
frugal-one
5-21-25, 6:00pm
I don’t have a problem with paying my fair share of taxes for services. I find it grossly unfair, however, for the wealthiest to pay the least. That seems to be the agenda of the current administration. DOGE was supposed to equate to efficiency but not so! A massive millions of dollars parade is not conducive of lowering our debt but contributing to it.
I don’t have a problem with paying my fair share of taxes for services. I find it grossly unfair, however, for the wealthiest to pay the least.
In 2022 the top 1% of income earners paid just over 40% of all federal income taxes. The top 10% paid 72%, the top 50% paid 97% and the bottom 50% paid 3% of all federal income taxes. Which group do you think is not paying their fair share?
I know it’s not anything final, but a piece I saw said the standard deduction would go up but personal deductions would go away, raising trillions. I assume that includes mortgage interest on a home? That could raise some eyebrows if it goes through and I’ve understood correctly.
I know it’s not anything final, but a piece I saw said the standard deduction would go up but personal deductions would go away, raising trillions. I assume that includes mortgage interest on a home? That could raise some eyebrows if it goes through and I’ve understood correctly.
I think the piece you read may have confused the personal exemption with itemized deductions.
I think the piece you read may have confused the personal exemption with itemized deductions.
In a double check, yes it's quite likely I'm confusing person exceptions with itemized deductions. Thanks for the correction.
It sounds like any concerns over a big increase in government debt have been overruled. I was starting to like Rand Paul. It seems like the national debt is not quite the GOP concern that it was during the Biden regime.
In 2022 the top 1% of income earners paid just over 40% of all federal income taxes. The top 10% paid 72%, the top 50% paid 97% and the bottom 50% paid 3% of all federal income taxes. Which group do you think is not paying their fair share?
Wouldn't it make sense that the top 1% is paying a larger percent since they are earning more money and the taxes are coming from that? If the bottom 50% is making a small percent of what the top 1% earn, then wouldn't their taxes be a much smaller number, so that this is a result of how much money the person was taking in, and then paying out in taxes?
In other words, you can't get blood from a stone; if you are earning 25000 a year, you are not going to be making much of a contribution in terms of taxes. How would someone at this bottom 50% come up with the money to pay a higher percentage of the taxes?
Wouldn't it make sense that the top 1% is paying a larger percent since they are earning more money and the taxes are coming from that?
Yes, under a progressive system it makes perfect sense, I'm just curious to know what those who believe the top 1% or 10% or whatever aren't paying their fair share, what would be fair and who would it be fair to?
Yes, under a progressive system it makes perfect sense, I'm just curious to know what those who believe the top 1% or 10% or whatever aren't paying their fair share, what would be fair and who would it be fair to?
What a wonderfully amorphous term “pay their fair share” is. So full of righteousness. So void of concrete definition.
For being a self professed billionaire, trump doesn’t seem to pay much. That doesn’t seem fair.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trumps-tax-returns-released-house-committee-years-legal-battles-rcna62408
iris lilies
5-22-25, 2:28pm
For being a self professed billionaire, trump doesn’t seem to pay much. That doesn’t seem fair.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trumps-tax-returns-released-house-committee-years-legal-battles-rcna62408
Here is one minute of Steve Bannon saying The Rich will be taxed more.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gpbdggBngQ4
What is this world coming to—Bannon saying we need more money and “The Rich” is one source. Trump acting as an Austerity czar. Crazy times.
This Bannon interview is on NPR if that makes a difference.
Here is one minute of Steve Bannon saying The Rich will be taxed more.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gpbdggBngQ4
What is this world coming to—Bannon saying we need more money and “The Rich” is one source. Trump acting as an Austerity czar. Crazy times.
This Bannon interview is on NPR if that makes a difference.
I wateched the whole NPR show. I've always been interested in Bannon--not in a positive/negative way, but in a curious way. Yes, it certainly he seems like an isolationist populist nationalist anti-oligarch who believes in taxing the rich.
Interesting discussion. I said it here, and I've heard him say it again, that Trump will be re-elected in 2028.
iris lilies
5-22-25, 4:44pm
I wateched the whole NPR show. I've always been interested in Bannon--not in a positive/negative way, but in a curious way. Yes, it certainly he seems like an isolationist populist nationalist anti-oligarch who believes in taxing the rich.
Interesting discussion. I said it here, and I've heard him say it again, that Trump will be re-elected in 2028.
I doubt it. If it looks like Trump is gonna lean that way, someone will take him out
I doubt it. If it looks like Trump is gonna lean that way, someone will take him out
Plus he'll be in Biden territory, age-wise.
I read a really good interview by NYT columnist Ross Douthat, who I really like, and J.D. Vance. Both are Catholic and Douthat was interviwing Vance in Rome, after the pope's Inaugural Mass. Douthat was grilling Vance on Trump's policies and personality, and Vance commented that he has observed that Trump has an almost bizarre genius for understanding human nature. In the NPR piece, Bannon said that Trump is his own closer--that's how it's been for both of his elections.
No matter how much Trump is hated and how much chaos he is creating, you gotta him that... genius for human nature and the ability to be his own closer. That's why he's in the White House. Doesn't mean it's right, but he made it so.
iris lilies
5-22-25, 5:54pm
I wateched the whole NPR show. I've always been interested in Bannon--not in a positive/negative way, but in a curious way. Yes, it certainly he seems like an isolationist populist nationalist anti-oligarch who believes in taxing the rich.
Interesting discussion. I said it here, and I've heard him say it again, that Trump will be re-elected in 2028.
I don’t know much about Steve Bannon other than he always looks so creepy.
frugal-one
5-22-25, 7:08pm
In 2022 the top 1% of income earners paid just over 40% of all federal income taxes. The top 10% paid 72%, the top 50% paid 97% and the bottom 50% paid 3% of all federal income taxes. Which group do you think is not paying their fair share?
Where are you getting these numbers? What percentage of their income did they pay?
frugal-one
5-22-25, 7:13pm
Yes, under a progressive system it makes perfect sense, I'm just curious to know what those who believe the top 1% or 10% or whatever aren't paying their fair share, what would be fair and who would it be fair to?
Fair share IMO is the same percentage of taxes for all. Example … Warren Buffett exclaimed he paid less in taxes than his secretary. He commented that did not seem fair. I agree!
According to an article in the NYT, the effective tax rate for the superrich in 2018 was 23%. In 1960 it was 56%. Allowing billionaires to pay such a low tax rate while their wealth continues to grow exponentially creates a situation where the wealth inequality also grows.
As I've said before, everyday economics is a Monopoly game. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. [I'll leave it at that.. deleted some other comments].
Fair share IMO is the same percentage of taxes for all. Example … Warren Buffett exclaimed he paid less in taxes than his secretary. He commented that did not seem fair. I agree!
I wouldn’t think a flat tax would yield the result you want.
Where are you getting these numbers? What percentage of their income did they pay?
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2025/ See the chart at the top of the page for all the numbers I previously posted, plus the percentages you're interested in knowing.
Fair share IMO is the same percentage of taxes for all.
So, how much would you like to increase taxes on those low income citizens who currently pay little or none in order to stick it to the rich? The average percentage paid by the bottom 50% of earners is currently 3.7%
iris lilies
5-22-25, 9:48pm
Theoretically, I like the flat tax, but haven’t we seen the data that determines that doesn’t bring in enough revenue for the United States?
I like the idea that everyone pays the same percentage. How that works in real life is unclear to me.
Theoretically, I like the flat tax, but haven’t we seen the data that determines that doesn’t bring in enough revenue for the United States?
I like the idea that everyone pays the same percentage. How that works in real life is unclear to me.
I like that too, that was what Steve Forbes was pushing, remember? Made sense to me then and now.
I am not sure about the flat tax. As IL says, I'd have to see what it means in real life. But I still go Biblical on this one "To whom much is given, much is expected," and I really don't think that a flat tax would be fair, or pay the bills. Not fair because if you have someone with an annual income of $100,000 at 10% they pay 10,000. That would impact their daily choices. If you have someone making 1,000,000, that's $100,000 in tax. I do not believe that they would have as much of a challenge achieving prosperity with $900,000 as someone making $90,000. And then what about the multi-millionaires and billionaires... I have to believe that some form of progressive tax is the most fair way.
In my post above where I deleted stuff, what I deleted was an analogy between a family and a country. I prefer to think of the country as a famly unit. If you have a couple of family members who are living large and having a great time but other members under the same roof are suffering, that doesn't bode well for the family in general. That is how I feel about the cuts to Medicaid. I feel that we are going to have a lot of family members dying and suffering and the other members of the family are turning a blind eye.
Paul Krugman (https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/what-a-decent-budget-would-look-like) has a great piece on Substack today. He is also calling the "Big Beautiful Bill" cruel and sure to cause death. But, as an economist, he has some suggestions for where to cut the waste other than cutting money going to the states for healthcare:
Recoup unpaid taxes, which will require restoring some IRS jobs. There is 600B out there in unpaid taxes. A good chunk of that from the wealthy (remember Leona Helmsley's famous quote?)
Crack down on Medicare Advantage overpayments. Insurers are gaming the system and costing the taxpayers between $1.3-2 trillion dollars.
Go after corporate tax avoidance. That would bring in $70B.
Eliminate Trump's 2017 tax cut. It didn't do the economy any good. All it did was line pockets. It didn't serve any real economic need.
So I'll try not to sink into despair for the all the people who are likely going to take one for Team Red with their health and their lives. But I'm not optimistic, and I'll put a thousand $Melanias on that bet.
My country isn’t my family and the government isn’t my daddy.
My country isn’t my family and the government isn’t my daddy.
I never said the government is your daddy. I said "family member" on purpose. The country is made up of people who have bonded together for the purpose of supporting each other's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I take that as a personal responsibility to vote in representatives who will do what they can to facilitate that mission on behalf of all.
early morning
5-23-25, 8:57am
“Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity and happiness of the people; and not for the profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men.”
― John Adams
I am not sure about the flat tax. As IL says, I'd have to see what it means in real life. But I still go Biblical on this one "To whom much is given, much is expected," and I really don't think that a flat tax would be fair, or pay the bills. Not fair because if you have someone with an annual income of $100,000 at 10% they pay 10,000. That would impact their daily choices. If you have someone making 1,000,000, that's $100,000 in tax. I do not believe that they would have as much of a challenge achieving prosperity with $900,000 as someone making $90,000. And then what about the multi-millionaires and billionaires... I have to believe that some form of progressive tax is the most fair way.
That also makes a lot of sense. Maybe pay not tax, like now, under a certain point, and then a flat tax? Just throwing out ideas, but what you say does make a lot of sense.
iris lilies
5-23-25, 10:22am
That also makes a lot of sense. Maybe pay not tax, like now, under a certain point, and then a flat tax? Just throwing out ideas, but what you say does make a lot of sense.
Then, it isn’t a flat tax system entirely, is it?
I like to see everyone with skin in the game. A truly “we are in this together” experience.
Those who pay taxes and those who don’t sets up a “them and us” dynamic.
catherine
5-23-25, 11:14am
I like to see everyone with skin in the game. A truly “we are in this together” experience.
Those who pay taxes and those who don’t sets up a “them and us” dynamic.
I agree with that. I think the only people who don't pay taxes are those below a certain level of poverty, and those who simply hide income from the government, who can be anywhere on the wealth spectrum, although it's definitely harder to hide income if you get a W-2, which is 61% of the US workforce. (McKinsey)
iris lilies
5-23-25, 11:45am
Where are you getting these numbers? What percentage of their income did they pay?
This kind of discourse has been going on for years here with these numbers. Do not let facts sway you!
I remember one of the old posters debating tax issues with a poster here, someone who taught tax law at an Ivy. Debate is fine and go forth to do it, but —that exchange was embarrassingly entertaining.
I never said the government is your daddy. I said "family member" on purpose. The country is made up of people who have bonded together for the purpose of supporting each other's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I take that as a personal responsibility to vote in representatives who will do what they can to facilitate that mission on behalf of all.
I view my relationship to my fellow citizens, as least as far as government is concerned, to be less familial and more contractual than you do.
I think the Founders’ vision and the brilliant, cynical constitutional order they devised was aimed more at preventing government or any faction therein to interfere with individuals enjoyment of life liberty or the pursuit of happiness rather than serve as a source for those things. Hence a federal system of sovereign states, enumerated and separated powers, checks and balances, etc.
But government will always try to seep into new areas, doing things like social engineering through the tax code or dictating education policy through the budget. Rule by executive order or legislating from the bench will always need to be guarded against people wanting to micromanage our pursuit of happiness to their specifications of happiness.
More tariff whiplash. Threatening 50% duties for the EU. A friend runs a seasonal business selling German Christmas ornaments at a booth at a Christmas market. She has small margins. She said this is going to sink her.
I only have two customers that mostly or wholly import from the EU. I advised them yesterday. One had heard and one hadn't. We don't actually know if it's going to actually happen or not.
So sorry for your friend--that sounds like a really cool business. Hope she can survive this time.
My daughter has been applying for tenure-track positions at universities around the world, as her research fellowship at Cambridge runs out in a year or so, and she already has substantially completed her projects there.
This week, with the attack on Harvard, was the last straw. Harvard and Yale are pretty much the only two universities in the US where positions in her field exist. She had made it to the final round of interviews at both places, but withdrew her applications today and accepted an offer from St. Andrews in Scotland, which is one of the leading institutions in the UK and Europe.
Brain drain. Talented young people are looking elsewhere for employment. Academics at the beginning of their careers seem unwilling to take the risk that their programs or universities here in the US might vanish out from under them, leaving them high-and-dry, killing their careers before they even really get started.
My daughter has been applying for tenure-track positions at universities around the world, as her research fellowship at Cambridge runs out in a year or so, and she already has substantially completed her projects there.
This week, with the attack on Harvard, was the last straw. Harvard and Yale are pretty much the only two universities in the US where positions in her field exist. She had made it to the final round of interviews at both places, but withdrew her applications today and accepted an offer from St. Andrews in Scotland, which is one of the leading institutions in the UK and Europe.
Brain drain. Talented young people are looking elsewhere for employment. Academics at the beginning of their careers seem unwilling to take the risk that their programs or universities here in the US might vanish out from under them, leaving them high-and-dry, killing their careers before they even really get started.
I was hoping someone would bring this up. This reminds me so much of stories I heard from Holocaust survivors who went to German universities, of what happened during those years. I am astonished by this latest action.
Congratulations to your daughter--what an amazing accomplishment, and what a wonderful life she has ahead of her!!
Bae, congrats to your daughter!
iris lilies
5-24-25, 12:58pm
My daughter has been applying for tenure-track positions at universities around the world, as her research fellowship at Cambridge runs out in a year or so, and she already has substantially completed her projects there.
This week, with the attack on Harvard, was the last straw. Harvard and Yale are pretty much the only two universities in the US where positions in her field exist. She had made it to the final round of interviews at both places, but withdrew her applications today and accepted an offer from St. Andrews in Scotland, which is one of the leading institutions in the UK and Europe.
Brain drain. Talented young people are looking elsewhere for employment. Academics at the beginning of their careers seem unwilling to take the risk that their programs or universities here in the US might vanish out from under them, leaving them high-and-dry, killing their careers before they even really get started.
You reported earlier that your daughter claimed she would never live in the United States again so this recent withdrawal is a surprise. But Saint Andrews is cool.Scotland, doncha know.
Decades ago I stayed in a student dorm there, visiting an American friend who was doing a history course there. I also visited the aulde links there, the mother of golf courses.
These are nice:
3 bedroom detached house for sale in South Street, St Andrews, KY16 (https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/158684243#/?channel=RES_BUY)
3 bedroom cottage for sale in Ranza Cottage, Brownhills, St. Andrews, KY16 (https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/157001702#/?channel=RES_BUY)
6 bedroom detached house for sale in Kennedy Gardens, St. Andrews, Fife, KY16 (https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/160971602#/?channel=RES_BUY)
We loved St. Andrews when we visited in 2007. I enjoyed the town. The links were more interesting to the rest of the family.
6357
iris lilies
5-24-25, 5:27pm
We loved St. Andrews when we visited in 2007. I enjoyed the town. The links were more interesting to the rest of the family.
6357
nice!
I was there in the 70s when North Sea oil was just starting to flow into Scotland. That was a game changer.
You reported earlier that your daughter claimed she would never live in the United States again so this recent withdrawal is a surprise. But Saint Andrews is cool.Scotland, doncha know.
I suspect the problem is that when there are only a handful of positions in your specialty that are available each generation, you have to weigh “principles” vs “a job” :-)
I’m glad she found a solution that works. In an ideal world, she’ll grab one of the positions at Cambridge or Oxford in a few years when one of the elders decides to open up a spot for the “younger” generation. But by then, she may be totally happy where she’s landed.
The other issue is her partner is a UK/Scottish lad, who is currently doing his post-doc/fellowship program at Oxford and in Rome. It is *very* difficult for them to find two academic positions at the same institution.
The stock market has been curiously resilient among all the predictions for recession, inflation due to tariffs, the bond market, and general unrest. Maybe not a sign of the economy, but investor speculation for future performance. I'm a buy and hold person, but even as a speculator, I'd certainly not want to add more equities to things. Maybe there are a lot of Trumpsters that are unfazed by the naysayers.
I have a tradition of watching the evening ABC news, supposedly one of the most watched news programs on TV. A couple of times now there has been a commercial as a scare-mercial on getting immigrants to self-deport. And a couple of times one from a source us taxpayers probably pay for saying how great the Trump economy is doing. It's filled with the usual unsubstantiated figures on how well inflation, the price of gas, and other indicators are doing. I have to say it's pretty strategic marketing. Seems like the dems could learn a lesson there.
Nothing like last minute (4pm Chicago time) release of the EO about steel/aluminum duties doing to 50% at midnight eastern time. Having to stay late to get a customs clearance done. Of course there are issues so back and forth with customer in India.
iris lilies
6-3-25, 7:50pm
Nothing like last minute (4pm Chicago time) release of the EO about steel/aluminum duties doing to 50% at midnight eastern time. Having to stay late to get a customs clearance done. Of course there are issues so back and forth with customer in India.
Ugh. I simply cannot imagine the chaos this is causing…
Ugh. I simply cannot imagine the chaos this is causing…
All of these changes have caused chaos.
The stock market has been curiously resilient among all the predictions for recession, inflation due to tariffs, the bond market, and general unrest. Maybe not a sign of the economy, but investor speculation for future performance. I'm a buy and hold person, but even as a speculator, I'd certainly not want to add more equities to things. Maybe there are a lot of Trumpsters that are unfazed by the naysayers.
I have a tradition of watching the evening ABC news, supposedly one of the most watched news programs on TV. A couple of times now there has been a commercial as a scare-mercial on getting immigrants to self-deport. And a couple of times one from a source us taxpayers probably pay for saying how great the Trump economy is doing. It's filled with the usual unsubstantiated figures on how well inflation, the price of gas, and other indicators are doing. I have to say it's pretty strategic marketing. Seems like the dems could learn a lesson there.
It seems that the markets are discounting many of Trump’s utterances based on his lack of follow-through. Call it the TACO factor.
Disgusting today to see Nat’l Guard deployed against our own citizens protesting peacefully… authoritarian regime in power. Thought republicans wanted states to have choice over matters. CA does not want guard there. Unwanted federal intervention.
https://apnews.com/article/insurrection-act-trump-troops-newsom-military-national-guard-a842f79e1c0e244039be274a6f266a7a
My thought is this is a precursor to next week when many protests are scheduled.
iris lilies
6-8-25, 3:17pm
Disgusting today to see Nat’l Guard deployed against our own citizens protesting peacefully… authoritarian regime in power. Thought republicans wanted states to have choice over matters. CA does not want guard there. Unwanted federal intervention.
https://apnews.com/article/insurrection-act-trump-troops-newsom-military-national-guard-a842f79e1c0e244039be274a6f266a7a
My thought is this is a precursor to next week when many protests are scheduled.
do you have any sense of irony at all that the article you linked shows in the first picture non-peaceful protest? I know another word for “non-peaceful “is “violent.” Multiple people are kicking and attempting harm to the vehicle. God only knows what they would do to the person inside.
I guess this protest will be like the entirely peaceful protests during George Floyd era when everyone was good, righteous, and peaceful. I guess the burning of buildings in St. Louis and etc. were a weird anomaly. They certainly weren’t reported on widely, St. Louis stuff. I told you all how a building in my will was on the receiving end of attempted fire destruction.
But that did not fit the favored narrative of legacy media.
Disgusting today to see Nat’l Guard deployed against our own citizens protesting peacefully… authoritarian regime in power. Thought republicans wanted states to have choice over matters. CA does not want guard there. Unwanted federal intervention.
https://apnews.com/article/insurrection-act-trump-troops-newsom-military-national-guard-a842f79e1c0e244039be274a6f266a7a
My thought is this is a precursor to next week when many protests are scheduled.
I agree that it is a precursor, but designed to prevent another summer of "mostly peaceful protests" which destroy and harm communities.
I'm not in favor of federalizing state national guard units unless absolutely necessary but I think that whenever the allegedly peaceful protestors feel free to throw bricks, set fires and make every effort to subvert legal actions by federal agents, someone has to step up and support order and the rule of law. I don't find it disgusting at all to do so, nor does the vast majority of our citizenry in general or the specific citizens of the protest sites.
I could go along with what you're saying Alan, for the most part, except I really don't think Trump cares if California defaces itself or burns and loots itself. It's more of a show of power.
And, there are processes for these things. Newsome did not ask for help.
This sort of thing inevitably becomes a sort of Rorschach test of political sensibilities. Some see a peaceful, flower-bedecked protest being attacked without provocation by vicious storm troopers. Others a typical rock-throwing, car-burning riot local authorities are too pusillanimous to deal with.
Karen Bass hasn’t fled town, which I take to be a hopeful sign.
I remember where I was standing in high school in Ohio when we heard about the killings of unarmed students by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State.
It felt very close to home.
I agree that it is a precursor, but designed to prevent another summer of "mostly peaceful protests" which destroy and harm communities.
I'm not in favor of federalizing state national guard units unless absolutely necessary but I think that whenever the allegedly peaceful protestors feel free to throw bricks, set fires and make every effort to subvert legal actions by federal agents, someone has to step up and support order and the rule of law. I don't find it disgusting at all to do so, nor does the vast majority of our citizenry in general or the specific citizens of the protest sites.
You are wrong. Watch what is happening now. The protests were peaceful. And, I don’t believe this action by trump supports the rule of law and order …. quite the opposite. It was not necessary or requested that the Guard be dispatched. It is an authoritarian show of power. Reminds me of Tiananmen Square… hopefully without the same result! Yes, I know that was with students but the show of power by the government is the same…. not necessary. We “lived” in a democracy. It appears our powers of speech are being driven (or trying to be) driven down. We all should be rising up to protest!
do you have any sense of irony at all that the article you linked shows in the first picture non-peaceful protest? I know another word for “non-peaceful “is “violent.” Multiple people are kicking and attempting harm to the vehicle. God only knows what they would do to the person inside.
I guess this protest will be like the entirely peaceful protests during George Floyd era when everyone was good, righteous, and peaceful. I guess the burning of buildings in St. Louis and etc. were a weird anomaly. They certainly weren’t reported on widely, St. Louis stuff. I told you all how a building in my will was on the receiving end of attempted fire destruction.
But that did not fit the favored narrative of legacy media.
We talked about this previously. My son lives not far from there. You have no clue what actually happened there. Look back and see … not going to rehash
iris lilies
6-8-25, 6:38pm
We talked about this previously. My son lives not far from there. You have no clue what actually happened there. Look back and see … not going to rehash
I have no idea where the “there” is you are talking about but there were George Floyd Protests in St. Louis, ya know, where *I* live.
I wonder what the Nation Guard can do that the state and local police can not. I suspect they are not trained. in insurrection or protest control. Making Newsom look weak probably played into Trump's decision if his history of revenge applies.
We talked about this previously. My son lives not far from there. You have no clue what actually happened there. Look back and see … not going to rehash
Mrs Walz gave us a first hand account of opening her windows in order to enjoy the smell of burning businesses. Was she lying?
I wonder what the Nation Guard can do that the state and local police can not.
Maybe provide a better response time when the peaceful little old ladies rush the incarceration center? Maybe provide the personnel to find and secure the stashes of bricks before they can be launched at federal employees going about their business, or perhaps carry fire extinguishers to put out the flames? There's probably more than enough to keep them busy.
I suspect they are not trained. Oh, I don't know about that. A little over 50 years ago the Air Force put me through recurring riot and crowd control training. I'm sure the National Guard's MP divisions still do the same.
Making Newsom look weak probably played into Trump's decision if his history of revenge applies. I doubt anyone 'makes' Newsom look weak.
Mrs Walz gave us a first hand account of opening her windows in order to enjoy the smell of burning businesses. Was she lying?
From the good ol’ boys brought in that were hiding gasoline filled water bottles and causing malaise. People of that neighborhood were not the culprits. Hope this helps you some.
I can recall a time in not too distant history when poorly prepared Nation Guard was called in to suppress a "peaceful protest" or insurrection. It did not have a good outcome. There are songs about it.
Hopefully, the big ugly bill trump is proposing gets shot down big time. Is all the news about the Nat’l Guard another diversion tactic to take away the spot light from the ugly cuts to popular services and massive spending? How much is the big useless trump parade on the 14th or the ridiculous plane “given” to trump (not us … he will use)? DOGE was a joke!
From the good ol’ boys brought in that were hiding gasoline filled water bottles and causing malaise. People of that neighborhood were not the culprits. Hope this helps you some.
LOL, OK. I feel enlightened....or maybe just amused. Not sure!
iris lilies
6-8-25, 7:59pm
I wonder what the Nation Guard can do that the state and local police can not. I suspect they are not trained. in insurrection or protest control. Making Newsom look weak probably played into Trump's decision if his history of revenge applies.
We had National Guard in
Ferguson for the mostly peaceful Michael Brown/Gentle Giant of Ferguson riots. They helped out quite a bit.
The local police officials were pleased no lives were lost in that circus.
it is common in these protests for the daytime protestors to be mostly peaceful although they like disrupting traffic and stopping all kinds of activities, but the nighttime protestors come out to riot and loot and burn stuff.
Is there any issue with the fact that California voted for Newsom and not for Trump to make decisions on state issues, and how is this a threat to some real or concocted version of national security. As in state's rights.
Is there any issue with the fact that California voted for Newsom and not for Trump to make decisions on state issues, and how is this a threat to some real or concocted version of national security. As in state's rights.
About 40% of them did vote for Trump, but not to make decisions on state issues. Of course we're not talking about a state issue in this case as the protests and federal response are centered on Federal employees, policies and facilities. If the state cannot or will not adequately protect or support the federal infrastructure and mission within its jurisdiction, the Feds have a duty to do so.
AIf the state cannot or will not adequately protect or support the federal infrastructure and mission within its jurisdiction, the Feds have a duty to do so.
I'm not sure what infrastructure is in danger, however I can understand the mission of Homeland Security to deport as many potentially illegals as possible might be impeded. Whether the state police can handle this or if it justifies the National Guard would be up for debate, as is the fact that this could be a manufactured crisis. The credibility of the administration is demonstrably at issue as is his strategies to resolve disputes on day one.
I'm not sure what infrastructure is in danger, however I can understand the mission of Homeland Security to deport as many potentially illegals as possible might be impeded. Whether the state police can handle this or if it justifies the National Guard would be up for debate...
A federal detention facility in Los Angeles where entrances/exits were blocked and rocks and bricks were thrown at employees trying to disperse the offenders. When ICE requested local police response, it took nearly 2 hours to arrive. Local police advised that it was too dangerous to enter the protest zone and that their presence may make the situation worse.
LOL, OK. I feel enlightened....or maybe just amused. Not sure!
That’s because you are one of those white nationalist good ol’ boys?
Is there any issue with the fact that California voted for Newsom and not for Trump to make decisions on state issues, and how is this a threat to some real or concocted version of national security. As in state's rights.
trump had no right to intervene. trump keeps saying bring control back to the states but does not do so… instead incites violence with his rhetoric. No King day next week! Find out where the protest is in your area and GO!
ETA … just SAW trump saying he will have troops in all states. WTH! …
A federal detention facility in Los Angeles where entrances/exits were blocked and rocks and bricks were thrown at employees trying to disperse the offenders. When ICE requested local police response, it took nearly 2 hours to arrive. Local police advised that it was too dangerous to enter the protest zone and that their presence may make the situation worse.
In this case we are assuming a 2 hour wait really matters that much. How would the troops have changed or escalated things? It looks like without invoking the insurrection act, the legal authority of the troops is limited to protecting the federal building and not policing the streets. Of course law has never stopped Trump. Newsom is suing, so we can assume there is a possibility of it being illegal..
It makes a nice diversion from trumps failing economy, tariffs, and the big beautiful bill, and is a show of political power. The practical functionality is in question.
Here's a comment form a legal authority.
...that for now the federalized troops appeared to have limited authority. Once deployed, they will be able to protect ICE agents and federal buildings against attacks by protesters but not to carry out immigration raids or police the city’s streets in general.
It looks like without invoking the insurrection act, the legal authority of the troops is limited to protecting the federal building and not policing the streets.
...that for now the federalized troops appeared to have limited authority. Once deployed, they will be able to protect ICE agents and federal buildings against attacks by protesters but not to carry out immigration raids or police the city’s streets in general.
Except that the president has stated he sent in the troops to quell "rebellion."
I keep flashing back to that day at gym class when we heard about Kent State. It was less than an hour's drive away. We heard by 2 pm. And that before the internet and 24 hour news access. There weren't even computers.
iris lilies
6-9-25, 10:48am
I remember Kent state...
Did ya’ll get nostalgic for Kent State when states like Washington called out their National Guard to address the weeks-on-end violence a few years ago? The only discussion I remember on these forums questioned the legitimacy of government imposed curfews which I think is a legitimate concern.
for the record, I also think it’s an area of concern when the President acts against a state’s wishes but I don’t mind that federal resources are being protected against idiot people who will destroy them for no gain.
6385
https://www.heraldnet.com/northwest/inslee-activates-national-guard-following-floyd-protests/
The LA Police Chief has said his force was “overwhelmed” by the scale of the rioting. All those peaceful protesters burning cars and blocking streets was too much for them. I see Maxine Waters had herself filmed trying to force her way into a detention facility.
Did ya’ll get nostalgic for Kent State when states like Washington called out their National Guard to address the weeks-on-end violence a few years ago? The only discussion I remember on these forms is questioning the legitimacy of government imposed, curfews, which I think is a legitimate concern.
for the record, I also think it’s a area of concern when the President acts against state’s wishes but I don’t mind that federal resources are being protected against idiot people who will destroy them for no gain.
Yes, when I heard "National Guard" / "protesters" I immediately thought of Kent State. I agree this is another show of power by the Federal Government. It's funny how "Nanny G" means one thing to some people and something else to others.
ETA: I am not saying that the National Guard isn't needed in this case, at this point. Seems things are escalating.
iris lilies
6-9-25, 11:19am
Yes, when I heard "National Guard" / "protesters" I immediately thought of Kent State. I agree this is another show of power by the Federal Government. It's funny how "Nanny G" means one thing to some people and something else to others.
ETA: I am not saying that the National Guard isn't needed in this case, at this point. Seems things are escalating.
Nanny is always Nanny whether she is doing something we like or something we don’t like.
when the bigger government steps to solve the problems of the smaller government, I don’t know that it’s always legitimate. For instance, in our state, the state prosecutor’s office felt the need to step in to solve the dysfunctional problems of .st. Louis’ prosecutor’s office. I had mixed thoughts about that.
On the one hand, gee it would be nice if crime victims saw their perpetrators actually charged and experience appropriate consequences. On the other hand, I think the voting citizens of St. Louis deserve their city prosecutor and her shenanigans because they voted her in and protested loudly any action to remove her from office. You want thieves, rapists and murderers to run amuck within the city? Okey-dokey you got it.
See, I can hold two conflicting ideas in my head at the same time.
I'm in the school that this should be a state rights issue and other than the protection of federal building and employees there does appear a legal basis for emplying the national guard. And heavens knows of the implications of using the Marines against US citizens, as has been hinted at.
However, if I have the story right, the protests are against ICE raids to deport people who are in the country illegally? Is that wrong? Even before Trump ICE raids were common. Protesters are brandishing Mexican flags to show solidarity. This isn't Mexico. Of course there are issues around due process.
I'm in the school that this should be a state rights issue and other than the protection of federal building and employees there does appear a legal basis for emplying the national guard. And heavens knows of the implications of using the Marines against US citizens, as has been hinted at.
However, if I have the story right, the protests are against ICE raids to deport people who are in the country illegally? Is that wrong? Even before Trump ICE raids were common. Protesters are brandishing Mexican flags to show solidarity. This isn't Mexico. Of course there are issues around due process.
Back in the fifties Eisenhower federalized the Arkansas National Guard and deployed elements of the 101st Airborne to Little Rock, so there must be some legal precedent. Not that I’m all that crazy about the Feds exercising that option. My understanding was that the Guard in LA was mostly posted around federal facilities. The local authorities seemed to be more interested in striking defiant poses than quelling civil disorder.
I agree with you that rioters waving Mexican, Salvadoran and Palestinian flags was troubling.
That’s because you are one of those white nationalist good ol’ boys?
LOL, well that's not the worst thing you've called me, luckily I'm not easily offended and it won't stop my participation in whatever discussion I find interesting so, try harder?
LOL, well that's not the worst thing you've called me, luckily I'm not easily offended and it won't stop my participation in whatever discussion I find interesting so, try harder?
Have you been filling bottles with gasoline and creating malaise?
Have you been filling bottles with gasoline and creating malaise?
That's a big negatory on the bottles of gasoline and a definite maybe on creating malaise, but only on those who find differing views upsetting. I also come from a long and storied line of "good ol boys", I lost the accent long ago but I can still talk the talk. :cool:
LOL, well that's not the worst thing you've called me, luckily I'm not easily offended and it won't stop my participation in whatever discussion I find interesting so, try harder?
Did you not note the question mark?
That's a big negatory on the bottles of gasoline and a definite maybe on creating malaise, but only on those who find differing views upsetting. I also come from a long and storied line of "good ol boys", I lost the accent long ago but I can still talk the talk. :cool:
You’re right. Nothing to be proud of though.
You’re right. Nothing to be proud of though.
I've learned to live with the shame.
I also come from a long and storied line of "good ol boys", I lost the accent long ago but I can still talk the talk. :cool:
My daughter specializes in language.
Just a few years ago, my uncle came by here to visit for a few weeks. He arrived speaking a sorta-Midland accent and vocabulary. My own accent is a mishmash of Southern California/PNW accents.
She observed with horror that after spending a day chatting with each other and telling old family stories, we had both reverted to the Appalachian speech patterns of our youth.
She's one to complain, I never know what accent she'll step off the plane with when she comes to visit. Last time it was very Welsh, though to be fair she had just been in Wales for months, speaking Welsh.
Did you not note the question mark?
Yes, but I find a declarative statement followed by a question mark not to be a question at all.
Yes, but I find a declarative statement followed by a question mark not to be a question at all.
That’s on you then.
She observed with horror that after spending a day chatting with each other and telling old family stories, we had both reverted to the Appalachian speech patterns of our youth.
My wife says I do the same when we visit my youngest remaining brother. He's sort of a skinny Larry The Cable Guy, even sharing the name.
My daughter specializes in language.
Just a few years ago, my uncle came by here to visit for a few weeks. He arrived speaking a sorta-Midland accent and vocabulary. My own accent is a mishmash of Southern California/PNW accents.
She observed with horror that after spending a day chatting with each other and telling old family stories, we had both reverted to the Appalachian speech patterns of our youth.
She's one to complain, I never know what accent she'll step off the plane with when she comes to visit. Last time it was very Welsh, though to be fair she had just been in Wales for months, speaking Welsh.
Some people are accent sponges and others never ever lose theirs. My MIL lived in this country for 60 years and sounded just as Glaswegian when she died as she when she first set foot in this country. I, in fact, am known to use many of her Scottish expressions.. I check my "line" when I leave the supermarket, I'll say an agitated person as "up to high doh;" if I'm happy with something I might say I'm "fair pleased." The dialect is so cool and musical I can't resist co-opting it from time to time.
In general, it's annoying when people adopt an accent too quickly--it seems fake, but I think sometimes it's a way to connect with and integrate in the community.
Alan, I'm always fascinated by how many Southern accents there are. There's Texas, and Louisiana, and Georgia, and Tennessee--all variations on the theme. Dave Ramsey said that went he went to radio, he had to get a speech coach to mitigate his accent.
Personally, I don't have an accent. :)
Personally, I don't have an accent. :)
Neither did I when I was young but several years after leaving home I noticed that my entire extended family developed an accent I can only describe as 'redneck country'.
Is there a rocky mountain accent? Other than the New England area and the cheese heads, I don't pick up regional accents at all. I have friends who are refugees from Iowa and I can't detect any mid-western accent.
Is there a rocky mountain accent? Other than the New England area and the cheese heads, I don't pick up regional accents at all. I have friends who are refugees from Iowa and I can't detect any mid-western accent.
My ear picks up differences between Colorado, Utah, Idaho, New Mexico accents. Subtle ones.
rosarugosa
6-10-25, 6:16am
I had a college professor tell me I had one of the most "godawful" New England accents he had ever heard. I do know that I use R's after vowels very sparingly.
I’m from Michigan, suburban Detroit. I’m told I have the Michigan twang and even after almost 30 years in the Chicago area, I still have it. I definitely don’t sound like the folks born here, even those from the suburbs.
I can pick up accents from different areas of Texas. Fort Worth twang is quite different from other regions. Other than saying y'all every once in a while, my long time in Texas left no clue. Old timer western Coloradans also have a particular way of speaking which I like.
iris lilies
6-10-25, 9:57am
Neither did I when I was young but several years after leaving home I noticed that my entire extended family developed an accent I can only describe as 'redneck country'.
Haha!
There is a Southern Illinois accent around St. Louis that I notice sometimes.
If you live long enough, you can notice shifting patterns too. Especially when you’ve been away from an area. It seems to me that Chicago-speak has been gradually colonizing Southern Wisconsin over the last thirty years or so.
catherine
6-10-25, 11:19am
Considering the small size of the Northeast relative to the rest of the country, we do have a surprising number of detectable accents. Besides the obvious rosa/Boston accent(s), There's a Maine/New Hampshire accent (I was in the play Our Town, so I know), and there is a separate Vermont accent. Everyone knows the NJ accent which thank God my kids never picked up, and New Yawk/Lawn Geyeland and then there's a PA/MD accent ("on" is "awn").
Considering the small size of the Northeast relative to the rest of the country, we do have a surprising number of detectable accents. Besides the obvious rosa/Boston accent(s), There's a Maine/New Hampshire accent (I was in the play Our Town, so I know), and there is a separate Vermont accent. Everyone knows the NJ accent which thank God my kids never picked up, and New Yawk/Lawn Geyeland and then there's a PA/MD accent ("on" is "awn").
When I lived in Boston, I was surprised by the many different dialects within a small area. Southie, Brookline, Jamaica Plain, West Roxbury, etc. all sounded a bit different to me. Maybe that’s what comes from three hundred years of segregated neighborhoods.
I have been told many times since I moved to New Mexico that I have a weird accent from Michigan, lol!
Now the accent from a Burqueno, that's weird!
https://youtu.be/IucBp1yrr7A?si=2aouQYZiUzL4PMBx
I have been told many times since I moved to New Mexico that I have a weird accent from Michigan, lol!
Now the accent from a Burqueno, that's weird!
https://youtu.be/IucBp1yrr7A?si=2aouQYZiUzL4PMBx
That's great! I like how coke is a generic name for soda--I guess you probably called soda "pop" in Michigan, right? Or is that further west. I know my Minnesotan niece/nephew always called soda pop.
We called it "pop" at home in Washington state. Most of the families in our town migrated from the Dust Bowl.
That's great! I like how coke is a generic name for soda--I guess you probably called soda "pop" in Michigan, right? Or is that further west. I know my Minnesotan niece/nephew always called soda pop.
They’ve mapped that one out.
https://archive.nytimes.com/ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/the-soda-vs-pop-map/
catherine
6-11-25, 11:16am
They’ve mapped that one out.
https://archive.nytimes.com/ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/the-soda-vs-pop-map/
Now that that's settled, I can sleep easy tonight. :) Seriously, that's a cool map. At least by area, the "soda" segment is vastly underrepresented.
Now that that's settled, I can sleep easy tonight. :) Seriously, that's a cool map. At least by area, the "soda" segment is vastly underrepresented.
I was in a class once that covered how the distribution has changed over time. “Tonic” and “seltzer” have gradually been supplanted. It’s a mystery to me why that should be. Similar to the mystery of why Europeans hate root beer so much.
I didn't know Europeans hate root beer. Grew up in Pgh. PA said pop, Phila. people in college said soda, down here in Maryland they say drink, I think. I am not out much anymore...
iris lilies
6-11-25, 2:41pm
Root beer is disgusting
Root beer is disgusting
Are you kidding? I'll take an A&W root beer float any day of the week! I also love cream soda and ginger beer.
When I was a little kid, one of the biggest treats of all was climbing into the Country Squire and going to a drive-in called Dog n Suds. They had great foot longs, bag-staining fries, and the best root beer I ever had. You could even get it in two gallon jugs so you could make floats for days afterward.
I once had a very old recipe for root beer using actual roots and herbs. Seem like there was licorice, sassafras, molasses, and what all, that I scrounged in health food stores. For carbonation you added a bit of yeast and capped the bottles. There was a brief period when the sugars and yeast allowed just the right carbonation to taste a few bottles, before they all over pressurized and blew up. It was a fun experiment and the flavor was unique.
I've seen some connoisseur type root beer brands around.
frugal-one
6-12-25, 8:21am
When I was a little kid, one of the biggest treats of all was climbing into the Country Squire and going to a drive-in called Dog n Suds. They had great foot longs, bag-staining fries, and the best root beer I ever had. You could even get it in two gallon jugs so you could make floats for days afterward.
There is still Dog n Suds in Tomahawk…
There is still Dog n Suds in Tomahawk…
That’s good news. I thought they were defunct. And I’m only a few hours away.
Yes, I came from a "pop" state.
Michigan was pop, but when I moved to Chicago in 96, I had to change to soda. No one I knew here said pop and they were confused by it. LOL
Michigan was pop, but when I moved to Chicago in 96, I had to change to soda. No one I knew here said pop and they were confused by it. LOL
I grew up in the disputed border regions in Ohio, so we called it "soda pop".
I grew up in the disputed border regions in Ohio, so we called it "soda pop".
I grew up in SE Mo, right at the top of the Bootheel, a half hour drive east to Illinois and Kentucky, a 45 min drive south to Arkansas. We called it soda pop too, although it sounded more like sodey pop.
I grew up in the disputed border regions in Ohio, so we called it "soda pop".
LOL
Then there are party stores. A true MI thing.
rosarugosa
6-13-25, 6:06am
It was tonic growing up, which I guess was a regional weirdness. Almost nobody says that any more. I think most people around here now call it soda.
frugal-one
6-13-25, 5:23pm
What a farce and waste of money! Reminiscent of North Korea!
https://apnews.com/article/military-parade-army-trump-f56795c86d802e1c4d40c4de5b001db5
What a farce and waste of money! Reminiscent of North Korea!
https://apnews.com/article/military-parade-army-trump-f56795c86d802e1c4d40c4de5b001db5
I think it's more reminiscent of the military parades we used to enjoy, well at least before the military became so unpopular during the Vietnam era. Other countries still routinely have them, France is well known for its annual Bastille Day military parade which its citizens seem to enjoy.
As far as costs are concerned, I'm not sure how to measure it. As a percentage of the Army's budget? As a percentage of the Federal Government's special event and ceremonies budget? Or perhaps a percentage of the numerous protests scheduled and heavily promoted for tomorrow?
It will be interesting to see what sort of “No Kings Day” protests develop. From what I can tell from the LA rioting, the main beneficiaries so far have been the MAGA agenda and the Babylon Bee.
frugal-one
6-13-25, 9:07pm
I think it's more reminiscent of the military parades we used to enjoy, well at least before the military became so unpopular during the Vietnam era. Other countries still routinely have them, France is well known for its annual Bastille Day military parade which its citizens seem to enjoy.
As far as costs are concerned, I'm not sure how to measure it. As a percentage of the Army's budget? As a percentage of the Federal Government's special event and ceremonies budget? Or perhaps a percentage of the numerous protests scheduled and heavily promoted for tomorrow?
Would be better served to give back to our veterans instead of all the radical cuts to their services. I don’t think we have ever had a parade such as this. It reeks of a display of military power that is not necessary. Would rather the money not be spent. Just adds more to the deficit. Just saw that trump is trying to outdo the parade he saw in France on Bastille Day. How idiotic is that?
frugal-one
6-13-25, 9:17pm
It will be interesting to see what sort of “No Kings Day” protests develop. From what I can tell from the LA rioting, the main beneficiaries so far have been the MAGA agenda and the Babylon Bee.
Over 1,800 protest sites to date against trump are scheduled for tomorrow! The show of force by the bringing in of the military is how a fascist regime operates. Hope the agitators stay home and it storms for the parade!
My husband had a good question the other day. Those tanks that will be rolling down the streets in DC today will do much damage to the road surfaces. Who will pay for the street repairs?
sweetana3
6-14-25, 12:45pm
Somewhere it mentioned the costs are being paid from Army funds. They did mention street repair also.
early morning
6-14-25, 12:46pm
And it's not even May Day. :~)
Our local town's protest, 500 people in a town with a population of 5400.
Husband said that there were five incidents of aggression, all by people wearing Trump clothes or driving vehicles with Trump signs. One spread diesel fumes in a cloud over the faces of the people at the protest.
I’m sure you’ve heard of the state rep killings in MN. The list the shooter left at the second location seems to have abortion clinics on it and other Dem politicians, including Tim Walz. I’m sure the timing was deliberate.
My Dad attended the “No Kings” protest this morning in Ellsworth Maine, and reported an attendance of 600+ people. In a town of about 8000.
My Dad is a disabled vet who can only painfully walk using a pair of Lofstrand crutches, as one of his legs is totally nonfunctional. It was a big effort for him to get there from the small island in Maine he is spending much of the summer on. He said the event was totally peaceful.
Bae, I'm so glad to hear about your dad! Bravo to him!
frugal-one
6-14-25, 3:25pm
My Dad attended the “No Kings” protest this morning in Ellsworth Maine, and reported an attendance of 600+ people. In a town of about 8000.
My Dad is a disabled vet who can only painfully walk using a pair of Lofstrand crutches, as one of his legs is totally nonfunctional. It was a big effort for him to get there from the small island in Maine he is spending much of the summer on. He said the event was totally peaceful.
Went this morning in south Tx to protest. There were 5 blocks of people on both sides peacefully protesting. Many disabled and vets plus people of all ages. It was amazing! Now watching the accounts of HUGE peaceful protests all over the country.
Publicly wishing the US Army a happy 250th birthday since that sentiment seems to be lost in the thrill of the resistance.
I just came back from our local protest. I didn't go to the Burllngton one--parking is hard there on a day when there's nothing happening.. my SIL said that there were lot of people there.
SIL reports over 2000 in Wauwatosa.
1500 in Beaufort.
2000 in Savannah.
iris lilies
6-14-25, 6:20pm
Publicly wishing the US Army a happy 250th birthday since that sentiment seems to be lost in the thrill of the resistance.
Hermann has its flag display out in the veterans area with 30 some flags and blue bows decorating light poles in the business district.
We came back from Springfield, Missouri, today where there was a protest that might’ve been a counter protest, but I wasn’t sure. There were a lot of American flags. There were a couple of other flags mixed in that I didn’t catch exactly what they were. There was a gentleman in military garb. I gave him a thumbs up anyway because it’s a good protest when they’re on public property, flying American flags, and not burning or looting.
DH thought it was a counter protest, but I’m going with a protest against Trumpian activities. But I’m telling you there were a ton of American flags so I liked that.
We had an annoying discussion on Mr. Money Mustache about who “owns “ the symbology of American flag and it just makes me PO’d when people think one “side “owns the ability to fly an American flag.
I heard a little clip of Carolyn Levitt taking down a journalist. The journalist asked her if President Trump supports peaceful protesting and Carolyn said “of course. What a stupid question. “
Go Carolyn!
IL, from what I was reading about protests today, there were lots of American flags on view b
frugal-one
6-14-25, 7:40pm
IL, from what I was reading about protests today, there were lots of American flags on view b
They even handed out American flags at the protest I was at today.
Yes, our indivisible chapter leaders told us to make sure we brought flags and dressed in red, white, and blue.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.