View Full Version : Why destroy science and education
What are you thoughts on why the current administration is hellbent on destroying scientific research and education?
I just got an email from a charity I support for native American colleges and if the Department of Education closes, the colleges they support will be closing, too.
I want to know why they are shutting down scientific research?
My DIL works for a non-profit that has lost millions of dollars in contracts in the last month. Research they have been doing for years is being halted and lost. They are firing administration and researchers.
NASA and HHS are seeing research halted and "vanished."
What do you think is their end goal here?
iris lilies
3-15-25, 10:57am
What are you thoughts on why the current administration is hellbent on destroying scientific research and education?
I just got an email from a charity I support for native American colleges and if the Department of Education closes, the colleges they support will be closing, too.
I want to know why they are shutting down scientific research?
My DIL works for a non-profit that has lost millions of dollars in contracts in the last month. Research they have been doing for years is being halted and lost. They are firing administration and researchers.
NASA and HHS are seeing research halted and "vanished."
What do you think is their end goal here?
This is a really good question.
I would separate science from “education. “ The United States Department of Education is the newest one created. What did this country do before it had it? Did it not educate anyone?
Like any government program, we can all take our tiny view of the big whole and complain about it. So yeah, the department of education – all of the school loan programs that people moan and bitch about owing. And loan programs that I firmly am convinced inflate the cost of a college education,
Just yesterday I was listening to Dave Ramsey’s show and one of the Ramsey people Cautioned a young lady to get her student loans paid off and to not count on any government program saving her. They reiterated that they had always counseled their callers to “pay off your student loan, the government can yank Any payback program like the SAVE you’ve got at any time” and then “for instance, look at what the current administration is proposing.”
This is consistent with what I know of government programs, they come and they go. There are winners and there are losers.
And then John Delony said something brilliant, and it speaks to his background in academia: he cautioned another young lady who was planning to go to school studying juvenile corrections counseling that she will be lobbied to continue on in their masters degree program because her teachers will say they see something special in her. He didn’t go so far as to say “ they’re recruiting you for their program because they need students“ but that advice is shrewd. In plain language he was giving her advice she would never hear from anyone else and that is, lady you’re a consumer who will be lobbied to consume by your education factory.
Because it rubs against their old white men agenda.
The term science covers a lot of territory, but I could think the current administration would like to form their own politicized "facts", which often contradict scientific knowledge. I also think there is some sort of conspiracy theory culture that casts distrust in the scientific community.
iris lilies
3-15-25, 1:54pm
The term science covers a lot of territory, but I could think the current administration would like to form their own politicized "facts", which often contradict scientific knowledge. I also think there is some sort of conspiracy theory culture that casts distrust in the scientific community.
For me, it’s not “science” that I distrust because frankly, I don’t know enough to be able to discount most all “science.” What I sometimes distrust is the politicization of science and the high priests of science mouthing those politicized statements while refusing to admit or even see their bias.
Trans gender medical is clearly one arena of politicized science.
We would all do well to remember that the science of the moment is very much of the moment. It is the facts as we know them right now. Setting aside politicized science, we all know of so many of the health science facts that have changed over the years. For instance, hormone replacement therapy for women. It was in during my mother’s time. And then it was out and not generally advised during my 40’s-50’s. . And now it’s back in, and in a different form.
remember eggs? Good. Then bad. Now, apparently not so bad.
And etc.
frugal-one
3-15-25, 2:18pm
This is a really good question.
I would separate science from “education. “ The United States Department of Education is the newest one created. What did this country do before it had it? Did it not educate anyone?
Like any government program, we can all take our tiny view of the big whole and complain about it. So yeah, the department of education – all of the school loan programs that people moan and bitch about owing. And loan programs that I firmly am convinced inflate the cost of a college education,
Just yesterday I was listening to Dave Ramsey’s show and one of the Ramsey people Cautioned a young lady to get her student loans paid off and to not count on any government program saving her. They reiterated that they had always counseled their callers to “pay off your student loan, the government can yank Any payback program like the SAVE you’ve got at any time” and then “for instance, look at what the current administration is proposing.”
This is consistent with what I know of government programs, they come and they go. There are winners and there are losers.
And then John Delony said something brilliant, and it speaks to his background in academia: he cautioned another young lady who was planning to go to school studying juvenile corrections counseling that she will be lobbied to continue on in their masters degree program because her teachers will say they see something special in her. He didn’t go so far as to say “ they’re recruiting you for their program because they need students“ but that advice is shrewd. In plain language he was giving her advice she would never hear from anyone else and that is, lady you’re a consumer who will be lobbied to consume by your education factory.
Kids were not required to attend school prior to the 20s. Currently, children are required to be in school. That probably will change because of this idiotic regime. The dumbing down of America IMO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_public_education_in_the_United_States
For me, it’s not “science” that I distrust because frankly, I don’t know enough to be able to discount most all “science.” What I sometimes distrust is the politicization of science and the high priests of science mouthing those politicized statements while,redusing to admit or even see their bias.
Trans gender medical is clearly one arena of politicized science.
We would all do well to remember that the science of the moment is very much of the moment. It is the facts as we know them right now. Setting aside politicized science, we all know of so many of the health science facts that have changed over the years. For instance, hormone replacement therapy for women. It was in during my mother’s time. And then it was out and not generally advised during my 40’s-50’s. . And now it’s back in, and in a different form.
remember eggs? Good. Then bad. Now, apparently not so bad.
And etc.
But is that science or journalism?Are the talking heads just spouting sound bites or curated information? As we found during Covid, a lot of what was called "science" was anecdotal, untested, imagined, or down right snake oil arguments. As you said, science is not fixed in time but builds on the knowledge gained from further information gleaned from study and testing.
My bias is clearly for a true science model. High demand religions and evangelicals would like us to use their faith based ideas as the basis for all fact. Science be damned. During the the Covid epidemic, I was listening to virologists around the world who were constantly gathering the latest information and basing decisions on facts as they were known that day or that hour. The "knowledge" I gleaned took a lot of fear away. The world of news just whipsawed the latest gossip.
As for many medicines promoted for large groups of patients (HRT, statins, etc.), the doctor/patient should be using their own needs and history to make determinations rather than what is the spouted as the latest and greatest for ALL.
For me it comes down to the metaphor that's been used constantly since 1/20/2025--that is, eliminating federal bloat should be done with a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.
I think the DoE's programs should be evaluated one at a time. I'm not completely enamored of that institution--from what I hear from teachers, it forces them to teach to the test. I haven't seen any evidence that this has worked in terms of math and reading outcomes.
I also think iris lilies has a good point about the federally-funded student loans. In my experience, they are extortionary. And they probably do encourage people to take on more debt than they should and inflate the cost of education.
But I am for the protections they have created and championed for special education and other civil rights.
iris lilies
3-15-25, 4:08pm
Kids were not required to attend school prior to the 20s. Currently, children are required to be in school. That probably will change because of this idiotic regime. The dumbing down of America IMO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_public_education_in_the_United_States
Compulsary education laws are set by the states, not the Feds.
This is one of the emails I received that prompted me to start this thread:
At times like these, Native students need your support and advocacy more than ever. Right now, two of our nation’s oldest and only federally chartered Tribal Colleges and Universities (TCUs) are in grave jeopardy due to the implementation of Executive Order 14210 (https://engage.collegefund.org/s/3352644/7nSzW4wy) and the White House hiring freeze memo (https://engage.collegefund.org/s/3352645/7nSzW4wy). Without immediate action to exempt them or rescind the policy, students and staff are suffering.
Nearly a quarter of the instructors and staff at Haskell Indian Nations University and Southwestern Indian Polytechnic Institute have been fired (https://engage.collegefund.org/s/3352646/7nSzW4wy) - and, with the hiring freeze, there isn't anyone coming to lead classrooms of Native students in their coursework, which is already halfway through the semester. Imagine the heartbreak and panic these students are feeling right now - for many, these classes are the ones they need to complete to graduate!
Here is another thing I read that prompted this thread--note, RIF'ed is not the same as the mass probationary firings:
"The entirety of the Department of Education’s office of civil rights was just RIF’d!"
iris lilies
3-15-25, 6:22pm
Sure. I wasn’t terribly concerned about the firing of probationary employees, probation is not a “permanent “ employment status and at my workplace, we total probationary employees. Their jobs can be eliminated or they could be let go without fanfare. That doesn’t address the necessity of some of these employees because I don’t know that.
I became concerned when I heard the entire departments and divisions were being RIFed or “made redundant “as they say in the UK.
Sure. I wasn’t terribly concerned about the firing of probationary employees, probation is not a “permanent “ employment status and at my workplace, we total probationary employees. Their jobs can be eliminated or they could be let go without fanfare. That doesn’t address the necessity of some of these employees because I don’t know that.
That's the probably something like the DOGE story.
A common account is that a person has worked in a certain agency for 5 or 10 years as a permanent employee, then is promoted within the same agency and are on probation in their new position. So they are essentially getting rid of some of the best and most experienced.
The real reason is probably more like, that's the legal way to reduce the work force, to heck with the employee value to the agency.
Sure. I wasn’t terribly concerned about the firing of probationary employees, probation is not a “permanent “ employment status and at my workplace, we total probationary employees. Their jobs can be eliminated or they could be let go without fanfare. That doesn’t address the necessity of some of these employees because I don’t know that.
I became concerned when I heard the entire departments and divisions were being RIFed or “made redundant “as they say in the UK.
Yes, they are destroying everything they can, as fast as they can.
Interestingly, the probationary status seems different in the fed system a lot of people have been with their agency for years, but then took a different job within it and became probationary again, some for three years. So it was not what I thought of as probationary.
That's the probably something like the DOGE story.
A common account is that a person has worked in a certain agency for 5 or 10 years as a permanent employee, then is promoted within the same agency and are on probation in their new position. So they are essentially getting rid of some of the best and most experienced.
The real reason is probably more like, that's the legal way to reduce the work force, to heck with the employee value to the agency.
Sorry, Rogar, it looks like you said what I was trying to say, only you said it a lot more clearly and a lot better!
For me, it’s not “science” that I distrust because frankly, I don’t know enough to be able to discount most all “science.” What I sometimes distrust is the politicization of science and the high priests of science mouthing those politicized statements while refusing to admit or even see their bias.
Trans gender medical is clearly one arena of politicized science.
We would all do well to remember that the science of the moment is very much of the moment. It is the facts as we know them right now. Setting aside politicized science, we all know of so many of the health science facts that have changed over the years. For instance, hormone replacement therapy for women. It was in during my mother’s time. And then it was out and not generally advised during my 40’s-50’s. . And now it’s back in, and in a different form.
remember eggs? Good. Then bad. Now, apparently not so bad.
And etc.
There was a time when the earth was flat and the center of the known universe. To discourage scientific education only serves to prolong a better understanding of the world and ourselves. There will probably always be fringe theories that could be politicized or just off on some unproven tangent, like cod liver oil for measles. Also, there still exists an objective neutrality that would be wrong, but sometimes it's the best we have and quite a few important things depend on the best information available at the time.
I'm really not up on gender science. I tend to think it's being made a bigger issue than it deserves in a relative sense. There's not much that is out of bounds for politization these days. DEI seems to be the whipping boy for political focus from both sides.
iris lilies
3-15-25, 7:27pm
There was a time when the earth was flat and the center of the known universe. To discourage scientific education only serves to prolong a better understanding of the world and ourselves. There will probably always be fringe theories that could be politicized or just off on some unproven tangent, like cod liver oil for measles. Also, there still exists an objective neutrality that would be wrong, but sometimes it's the best we have and quite a few important things depend on the best information available at the time.
I'm really not up on gender science. I tend to think it's being made a bigger issue than it deserves in a relative sense. There's not much that is out of bounds for politization these days.
You are wrong about gender science not being a big deal. It is at the heart of the debate about scientific free speech and symbolizes all that is wrong with tamping down scientific inquiry and hiding results that do not fit the preferred narratives of a political administration.
any number of sincere qualified researchers have been pushed out of their research or academic life because they hold the wrong opinion, are wanting to investigate the wrong problem.
Keep in mind that many (?most?) of the scientists who are trans allies consider the gender science a “settled science.” Ask any questions and you are a TERF.
You are wrong about gender science not being a big deal.
I'm not wrong, but we do disagree. In the realm of vaccines, bird flu, WWIII, Medicaid, deportation of green card holders, making friends with Putin, distancing Europe and Canada as some sort of political enemies, the fate of the environment with lies about climate change, cancel culturing free speech on college campuses, deregulating the EPA regulations and the future of the environment for coming generations, oligarchs running the nation and the threat of autocracy, tariffs, tax cuts for the wealthy, a president who is a chronic liar, a looming recession, etc., it barely registers on my compass.
There seems to be a trend to disdain expertise, knowledge-based professions, and critical thinking.
You could speculate on a variety of causes and goals of this trend.
I found this book interesting:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/5186psClwrL.jpg
deregulating the EPA regulations and the future of the environment for coming generations
This worries me as much as anything. Safeguards and expertise on the topic are being dismantled so quickly because "climate change" is on Trump's no-no list.
I also think back upon how intellectuals were treated during the Chinese Cultural Revolution, where members of the "Stinking Old Ninth" were sent for re-education sessions in gulags.
I see now that in the USA, some universities are under attack by the current administration, and I see some universities sadly informing already-admitted candidates to graduate school and medical programs that they are unable to proceed with admission because of, essentially, DOGE-related fun.
I see also that British Columbia just announced that it will offer a fast-track 6-week visa to US doctors and nurses who wish to move to Canada. I've put my feelers out to see if that program will also extend to statisticians and first responders, for...reasons.
My own daughter, quite a talented intellect, has told me she will never return to the US for employment, so that's a bright, energetic young person with an Ivy League degree, Ph.D. from Cambridge, and solid work experience who we've lost as a nation.
My partner's daughter, an actual rocket scientist at Space-X, is looking into working for one of the European space agencies and relocating. She informs me she is not the only one of her coworkers investigating similarly.
I expect to see some noticeable brain-drain from the USA to other nations, at least among scientists, engineers, and such.
Good luck to you all.
I see also that British Columbia just announced that it will offer a fast-track 6-week visa to US doctors and nurses who wish to move to Canada. I've put my feelers out to see if that program will also extend to statisticians and first responders, for...reasons.
I bicycled through southern B.C. in my youth. If I were looking to relocate out of the U.S. it would be on my list of possibles. The Okanogan Valley that extends up from Washington is a fruit producing region and has an almost Mediterranean like climate. And the little town of Nelson some have compared to Boulder for its culture, for what that is worth. A brief impression anyway.
iris lilies
3-15-25, 10:18pm
I'm not wrong, but we do disagree. In the realm of vaccines, bird flu, WWIII, Medicaid, deportation of green card holders, making friends with Putin, distancing Europe and Canada as some sort of political enemies, the fate of the environment with lies about climate change, cancel culturing free speech on college campuses, deregulating the EPA regulations and the future of the environment for coming generations, oligarchs running the nation and the threat of autocracy, tariffs, tax cuts for the wealthy, a president who is a chronic liar, a looming recession, etc., it barely registers on my compass.
oh sure, I can see that is an extremely low priority for you when considering the problems of the world. I agree with that. Here on this thread, though, we are talking about the more narrow topics of science and education, which is why I thought the topic of trans medicine fit in nicely in illustrating some problems with differing in the scientific community.
There are always raging scientific debates in any topic, I’m not naïve about that. But seldom are they politicized so far into our mainstream culture as this topic.
oh sure, I can see that is an extremely low priority for you when considering the problems of the world. I agree with that. Here on this thread, though, we are talking about the more narrow topics of science and education, which is why I thought the topic of trans medicine fit in nicely in illustrating some problems with differing in the scientific community.
There are always raging scientific debates in any topic, I’m not naïve about that. But seldom are they politicized so far into our mainstream culture as this topic.
I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this, but I see DEI and trans issues to be less of a scientific dilemma and more of a cultural issue that has been amplified by the media and politicians. Science can't answer everything. But like I say, my plate of concern is pretty full with other things.
I can understand in part what the employees are feeling being fired, RIFd, laid off,whatever you call it. 17 years ago my husband was laid off with 5,000 other corporate employees. His entire group, a corporate IT planning group was laid off at that time. Employees from all over the company were gone.
It had a deep mental effect that lasted for several years even though we were financially prepared. And we did not have to deal with the illogical whipsaw actions taking place right now.
Bae, my husband and I were discussing the Chinese Cultural Revolution just yesterday.
I also think back upon how intellectuals were treated during the Chinese Cultural Revolution, where members of the "Stinking Old Ninth" were sent for re-education sessions in gulags.
I see now that in the USA, some universities are under attack by the current administration, and I see some universities sadly informing already-admitted candidates to graduate school and medical programs that they are unable to proceed with admission because of, essentially, DOGE-related fun.
I see also that British Columbia just announced that it will offer a fast-track 6-week visa to US doctors and nurses who wish to move to Canada. I've put my feelers out to see if that program will also extend to statisticians and first responders, for...reasons.
My own daughter, quite a talented intellect, has told me she will never return to the US for employment, so that's a bright, energetic young person with an Ivy League degree, Ph.D. from Cambridge, and solid work experience who we've lost as a nation.
My partner's daughter, an actual rocket scientist at Space-X, is looking into working for one of the European space agencies and relocating. She informs me she is not the only one of her coworkers investigating similarly.
I expect to see some noticeable brain-drain from the USA to other nations, at least among scientists, engineers, and such.
Good luck to you all.
Yes, we are losing a whole generation of scientists here. The structure that supports learning and growth is being dismantled. I will check out the Nichols book.
I have always thought that Donald Trump was basically Huey Long, with his populist anti-intellectualism that seeks to destroy that which it does not understand.
Yesterday he signed another one of his unconstitutional EO's, which dismantles 7 more agencies, including these, according to the Hill:
"The president targeted the U.S. Agency for Global Media, which is the parent company of Voice of America’s (VOA), as well as the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in the Smithsonian Institution, which is a think tank, and the Institute of Museum and Library Services, which is an agency that supports libraries, archives and museums in every state."
I understand from my DIL that the govt has been dismantling archives as fast as it can. Erase the past and substitute your own version of it, which is what they are doing with everything.
iris lilies
3-16-25, 9:31am
Yesterday he signed another one of his unconstitutional EO's, which dismantles 27 more agencies, including these, according to the Hill:
"The president targeted the U.S. Agency for Global Media, which is the parent company of Voice of America’s (VOA), as well as the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in the Smithsonian Institution, which is a think tank, and the Institute of Museum and Library Services, which is an agency that supports libraries, archives and museums in every state."
I understand from my DIL that the govt has been dismantling archives as fast as it can. Erase the past and substitute your own version of it, which is what they are doing with everything.
I know the Institute of museum, and library services as a publishing house. It’s not something the general public ever comes into direct contact with, in a place I’ve worked in anyway for 35 years.
now the Library of Congress does some direct services —there will probably be some slashing there, that will have a ripple effect out in the field.
iris lilies
3-16-25, 9:58am
I also think back upon how intellectuals were treated during the Chinese Cultural Revolution, where members of the "Stinking Old Ninth" were sent for re-education sessions in gulags.
Shut down of critical thinking and persecution of wrong-think by universities of their faculty has been a measurable problem since at least 2014.
https://www.thefire.org/news/new-red-sc
And this great essay, not that anyone will actually read it, outlines the journey of young progressive academic Colin Wright who was hounded for refusing to mouth the party line about biology. Cancel culture is real. Once a science educator who would argue with Creationists over their fantasy -land ideas of “science” Colin became ostracized by his peers.
https://quillette.com/2020/07/30/think-cancel-culture-doesnt-exist-my-own-lived-experience-says-otherwise/
But this is not harassment by the government which is, I will admit, a MUCH bigger deal. That is a really big bad thing, yet, I can’t help but be a little pleased when Trump goes after these universities that coddle would-be terrorists and shut down true intellectual freedom. This is not the role of government. But maybe, sliding all of those federal dollars into Columbia university, for instance, is not the role of the Feds, either.
I see now that in the USA, some universities are under attack by the current administration,…
see above
I see also that British Columbia just announced that it will offer a fast-track 6-week visa to US doctors and nurses who wish to move to Canada….
That is a nice opportunity for
Canada to grab some much needed talent. They need it in their failing health system.
My own daughter, quite a talented intellect, has told me she will never return to the US for employment, so that's a bright, energetic young person with an Ivy League degree, Ph.D. from Cambridge, and solid work experience who we've lost as a nation.
I’ve been meaning to ask you what your daughter says about the changes in her field that now disallow use of human bones in anthropological studies, in presentations, in photographs, and etc. That has to be a new and unwelcome restriction, although I suppose it’s being spun as something wonderful.
I’ve seen more than one presentation on YouTube lamenting the restricting of this important tool for study. I suppose eventually AI will fill in the gap but I don’t think it’s there yet.
catherine
3-16-25, 11:23am
Shut down of critical thinking and persecution of wrong-think by universities of their faculty has been a measurable problem since at least 2014.
https://www.thefire.org/news/new-red-sc
And this great essay, not that anyone will actually read it, outlines the journey of young progressive academic Colin Wright who was hounded for refusing to mouth the party line about biology. Cancel culture is real. Once a science educator who would argue with Creationists over their fantasy -land ideas of “science” Colin became ostracized by his peers.
https://quillette.com/2020/07/30/think-cancel-culture-doesnt-exist-my-own-lived-experience-says-otherwise/
I did read it. He has a valid point for sure. My favorite environmental writers, Derrick Jensen and Lierre Kieth have had their speaking engagements ripped from under their feet for similar reasons, so they have been effectively "cancelled."
I’ve been meaning to ask you what your daughter says about the changes in her field that now disallow use of human bones in anthropological studies, in presentations, in photographs, and etc. That has to be a new and unwelcome restriction, although I suppose it’s being spun as something wonderful.
I’ve seen more than one presentation on YouTube lamenting the restricting of this important tool for study. I suppose eventually AI will fill in the gap but I don’t think it’s there yet.
“Origin: A Genetic History of the Americas,” written by Jennifer Raff, has some excellent discussion of the state of this sort of thing. It is a bit more nuanced than newspaper articles and YouTube commentators portray, surprise.
Once again, I’d encourage you to get out into the real world.
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