View Full Version : really?
Okay I want to vent and this has no place else, and I am really a non-judgemental. So I am calling the student loan company and working out another forebearance. So the first thing I got was the choice of English or Spanish. I am used this pretty much everywhere. every letter I write to parents is in English and Spanish. When I call the bank or the utility company of course I get the option of English and Spanish. However to be offered English vs Spanish with a company that services student loans specifically to US students just seems too much. I think that even if you are studying a foreign language that competancy in English is required for the US Universities, just as I would expect if I was studying in another country that I would be capable of conducting basic business in their language. So there, vent over, not someone deporting families or posting guards at border but still irritated.
Don't you prefer doing complex transactions in your native language?
loosechickens
9-22-11, 2:17pm
As Redfox said, being fluent in a language does not mean that it is your preferred language when you have to deal with things like your student loans. My husband did his Junior year abroad from Georgetown University at the University of Madrid, in Spain, and was and is fluent in Spanish, but given the choice of using English or Spanish on an automated system, would use his native language every time.
you know the old saying about assumptions........sometimes its necessary to realize that assumptions often fall right in line with preconceived ideas or prejudices, and this might be one of those times.
Sometimes I choose Spanish on those automated systems, especially if it is something that isn't complex or important, just to sharpen up my Spanish skills, but I'd think that most people, fluent or not in English, if they are native Spanish speakers, would probably choose the Spanish option.
chanterelle
9-22-11, 2:47pm
ok, when it comes to telephone trees and dealing with Officious Persons I freak out in English, my primary language!!!
I am fluent in several but still prefer English when dealing with things which may cost me big bucks or some how get me screwed with TPTB.
Saying you are non-judgemental at the start does not negate the judgement you make later in the paragraph! ;)
Formal language - particularly when replete with legalese, like any letter regarding loans would be - can be difficult enough to understand in one's native language, let alone in a second language. As far as student loans are concerned, it is likely that the parents of these students will need to read the documentation too. Perhaps they weren't raised in the US and don't speak English at as high a level as Spanish.
Sometimes it's necessary to dig a little deeper to understand why things are done.
shadowmoss
9-23-11, 11:22am
I was much more a fan of mulitple language choices before living down here where most times I am not offered and English option. You know how most foods and appliances come with instructions in many languages in the US? Not down here. Luckily, most food has pictures showing how to prepare it, so I can pretty much tell what is what. Also, I got yelled at in the airport by an immagration lady here in Honduras because I showed her my residency card but didn't understand her Spanish. I don't understand much, but I could tell she was yelling at me that I had been down here so long (pointing at the date issued on my card) that I should be able to speak her language. She knew no English, and the flights from that area were headed to the US for the most part. The fact that I work for a US contracting company for the US military didn't count. sigh. Like to see one of the US immagration folks get away with yelling at anyone leaving the country that they should speak English if they want to live there. How long would they have a job?
Mighty Frugal
9-23-11, 2:08pm
I can't understand why this would upset (or puzzle) you or why you would even question it. It's great they can offer a service in more than one language. Just hit '1' for English and bob's your uncle!! I guess I am a bit biased living in a bilingual country. I am used to all our packaging and instructions in both English and French. Many English speaking people here say they only speak 'cereal box French' haha
okay I am Canadian. But I was under the impression that there is no official language in the states. I like that idea a lot. Am I right or wrong?
For Mighty Frugal - Flocons de Mais
I don't mind multiple language choices in any situation, but I hate having to deal with automated "customer service." Talk about an oxymoron!
And no, we have no official language.
Zoe.....as I have learned in the past, this is NEVER the place to say anything like that....even though I understand your irritation. Most people here are extremely liberal, and never want to hear anything about ever wanting just one particular culture anywhere. And if you feel that way, you will be severely chastised here!
Anyhow.....I understand your wanting English to be the main language here. Okay. Now I, too, will be chastised.
Most people here are extremely liberal, and never want to hear anything about ever wanting just one particular culture anywhere. And if you feel that way, you will be severely chastised here!
I wouldn't take that personally, it's simply a requirement of the liberal mindset. Cultural assimilation, an important part of the American experiment, was a mainstay of our national fabric for generations. But now, the progressive attitude of "separate but equal", a sort of liberal caste system, applies in the world of the enlightened. No one will admit it, but that's what it is.
okay I am Canadian. But I was under the impression that there is no official language in the states. I like that idea a lot. Am I right or wrong?
For Mighty Frugal - Flocons de Mais
The USA doesn't have an official language - although, according to the latest census, over 82% claim english as their primary language and over 93% claim to fully understand and use english. There for english is the language always used in offical US documents. However, there are approx. 27 states that have adopted english as their official language - and some states have dual languages as their official language (Hawaii list english and hawiaian as their official languages). But often times they will still use multiple languages in their offical documents. For example Calif, where I live, has adopted english as it's offical language (since 1989) yet they publish almost all of their official document in multiple languages. I believe the voting stuff is written in 12 languages and the motor vehicle dept writes their stuff in 9 languages. That's similair to most "english only" states to reflect minority or ethnic populations. And since spanish speakers make up the biggest population in the country of non-english speaking people (at least non-english as their first language speakers) many places will give that option. I'm all for it but also believe that it is important for anyone living in the USA to learn english as well. My Mom came from Germany and didn't speak alot of english but, knowing she would be making this her home for life, learned it as rapidly as possible. Guten tag :-)!
Guten Tag Spartana, Wie geht's?
My DH's grandmother came over from Hungary and she, too, tried to learn English ASAP. The feeling I'm getting today is that that isn't happening, and we're bending over backwards for these people, by putting so much in Spanish, when we'd like to see them trying harder to learn English. It would be different if we were as close to other countries as they are in Europe.
Before I get flamed, or cause another discussion of my "biotry," let's just agree to disagree.
loosechickens
9-23-11, 3:41pm
I believe there is a great deal of difference between "chastisement" and disagreeing with thinking that it is a problem. Some people are far more comfortable with multicultural diversity than others, some feel threatened if they feel the primacy of their own language is not paramount, some have never lived in a country where their native language was not spoken, so have little concept of the difficulties of understanding and expressing complex ideas in a new language, etc.
We have a wonderful myth of "assimilation" in this country, and over time, all groups that have come here have assimilated, but the idea that in the past, immigrants came here and all of them assimilated and learned English is simply a myth. Studies show that the rate of assimilation is as fast, if not faster now than it was in the past.
The adult immigrant to this country, if they have no English when they arrive, will often struggle to learn, as it is much more difficult to learn a new language the older you are. Their children will assimilate easily, learn English relatively effortlessly, and be bilingual. When they grow up and have children, their children will often speak the old language imperfectly and sometimes not at all, beyond a simple ability to talk about daily things with grandparents.
In this country it is very common for native English speakers to speak no other language. In other parts of the world, being monolingual would mark one as being uneducated, and in some countries, such as many of the European countries, it is not uncommon for people to speak three, four or five or more languages and segue easily between and among them.
I don't believe it is a "liberal" or a "conservative" view. Many conservatives who are educated people speak several languages. It's a handy, shorthand hot button to use to garner jingoistic patriotism, especially to those who feel threatened by multiculturalism, but that multicultural outlook and ability to move among and interact with people from all over the world and in several different languages will be the hallmark of those who are successful in the 21st Century, so it may be best to embrace that global outlook in the future.
To the partisan, accustomed to using the hammer of turning everything into a liberal/conservative nail, the fact that people have different opinions from an OP may be "chastisement", but to me, it's simply a matter of others saying, "sorry, I disagree".
But.....as we have chewed over on these forums ad infinitum, many, many people who are FLUENT in English will still prefer to do complex thinking or discussion of things regarding banking or legal things in their native language.
The United States is becoming a much less parochial, much more multicultural country. The WORLD is becoming much more a global world. And these changes are part of that. JMHO
Just think of it as a kindness to someone new to our country.
Mighty Frugal
9-23-11, 4:01pm
okay I am Canadian. But I was under the impression that there is no official language in the states. I like that idea a lot. Am I right or wrong?
For Mighty Frugal - Flocons de Mais
Corn Flakes!!!
Corn Flakes!!!
Ha Ha - I actually understood that because I lived on the Ontario/Quebec border for a time as a kid when my Dad was stationed there in the US Air Force. A little town called Holtyre above Timmons and Kirkland Lake. Pretty much everyone spoke french except for us (mon dieu!).
I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am not here to offend any one language group, however I have known and worked with people who speak Russian, Vietnamese, Lithuanian, Albanian, and more. If grandmother who onlyl speaks Vietnamese gets picked by an ambulance than a very fluent family member needs to be available. Some school have 14 languages, and in my current district there is a school in our program with 24 languages and a large refugee population. I am very aware that in my area of work it is essential I learn Spanish specifically instead of being called in to use French skills as needed. Every event, peice of paperwork, and even homework is printed in English and Spanish, and I see a little more of other languages in my areas but not an Amharic translator.
I guess I would be more comfortable with an option of 'would you like English or assistance in another language'. Of course I would be more comfortable in English if I was living in France, however I would expect to be able to conduct University business in French if I was a student there. I know I am probably still going to say the wrong thing to someone, but I just have to trust I have the best intentions here and hope I do not offend.
It boggles my mind that my city's website has translations into 29 languages. Swedish? Welsh? ummm, yeah, those immigrants are all over the place here. NOT.
I do understand Serbian, Croation, Vietnamese, and whatever language Somalians speak (French?) because we have major immigrant populations that speak those languages, but many of them are useless. I can only hope a big fat government grant from the Feds enables this multicultural extravaganza.The city is fighting a deficit and "Galacian" translation of city web information is unaffordable luxury. Of course, the Feds can afford it, printing money as they do.
our city's website:
http://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/information-technology/web-development/web-accessibility/translate.cfm?click=english
edited to add:
how enlightening that I can see the beautiful scroll alphabet of Thai language laying out the specifics of St. Louis building violations:
การอนุรักษ์ที่อยู่อาศัย
... 62887, ที่อยู่อาศัยการตรวจสอบการอนุรักษ์เมืองอำเภอตรวจสอบ รหัสขั้นพื้นฐานที่ออกแบบมาเพื่อตรวจสอบน้อยที่สุดสำ หรับการตกแต่งภายในอาคารรหัสการละเมิดและตอบสนอ ง...
some things are too absurd, I just have to laugh. And truth be told I 've always loved Thai writing, so pretty.
As tempted as I am to join in bashing of political correctness because it DOES get tiresome, I don't understand why this is such a big deal. By the 2nd generation all have adopted U.S. culture including the really bad chit-- and I don't think that's so great.
Personally, I'd like new immigrants to carry on their language and culture, and keep eating their 3rd world diets and open great ethnic restaurants that the Iris Lily household can frequent. I also like the immigrant parental units who work 3 jobs per household, who keep their children focused on school ('though this is not all cultures, here, unfortunately), and who counter the strong influence of the pervasive ghetto culture. My favorite St. Louis event is Festival of Nations in my favorite city park where dancers, music, and food of all nations are on display. Really, I just wander around in a daze of gluttony and sensory overload on that weekend.
Unfortunately we are seeing the 2nd generation flee this city because ghetto isn't attractive to them, and even many of the Bosnians after being here no more than a decade are up and outta here to less gritty 'burbs. A harder working bunch you will not find.
loosechickens
9-23-11, 10:31pm
I think we appreciate, Zoe, that you're not intending to offend, and I don't believe any offense has been felt or expressed by other posters.
Hopefully, this won't come out sounding snide, because I do not mean it to sound that way, and it's always hard to put something in writing where a person can't hear your tone, or see your facial expression and body language, etc., but here goes.
Why don't we just wait and check in with you about how you feel about this subject when we see how long it takes you to become fluent in Spanish (which honestly is a FAR easier language to learn than English). Sometimes until one walks some miles in the moccasins of someone in a new country struggling to learn a language, there are things hard to see.
Spanish is one of the easier and more regular languages, so give it a try this year and by the end of that time, see if you don't have a lot more respect for peoples' struggles to learn English when they come here, and how long it takes a person, even after they speak the language well, to be comfortable discussing complex ideas.
I remember when I was living in Mexico and learning Spanish, I was doing well, having conversations with people, understanding the talk around me, watching TV, etc., and I had a chance to go to an environmental conference at a local university. Of course, the conference and all speakers would be speaking in Spanish. My sweetie was surprised that I wanted to go and said that he thought I'd have trouble with lots of technical language and a lot of unfamiliar vocabulary. I shot him down, quite sure that I'd do fine. Well, I sat at that conference for THREE DAYS, and probably understood less than 10% of what was said.
Which I think you might find after a year or so of learning Spanish, then clicking on the "Spanish" option on the student loan automated system, and see how well you do with complex stuff, legal language and financial stuff.
Hopefully, you hear what I'm saying, and don't take offense, because I don't mean it in any negative way. It's been my experience that most of the people who do most of the complaining about stuff being in other languages, and are offended that "these people don't just learn English", are not only native speakers of English, but have little experience with having to function in an environment where they have to function in another language themselves. Once they experience that, often their opinons change. And, then, sometimes not. But you might want to wait awhile and see how quickly you can manage those instructions and voice mail systems in Spanish before judging.
I studied Spanish for twelve years or so, and was semi-fluent at one time (to the extent of winning school awards). If I had lived in a Spanish-speaking culture for awhile, I would have been much more so. I can usually get the gist of Spanish-language TV if I really concentrate. I couldn't begin to keep up in any really complicated subject at this point--it's easy to miss a word and infer the exact opposite of what is being said. I agree with Loosechickens, ZoeGirl, that actively learning the language will teach you a lot--and not just about grammar and syntax.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-11, 11:54pm
I have gotten annoyed when phones ask for the English/Spanish option. Mostly because I really just want to hurry up and be done with it (especially as it is often my 3rd call into the automated phone system, because the whole series of numbers I pressed the last two times led me to a dead-end, so I am now tryinig again with yet a different set of numbers). I'm like "get on with it already, I don't have eternity to keep trying this".
I wouldn't take that personally, it's simply a requirement of the liberal mindset. Cultural assimilation, an important part of the American experiment, was a mainstay of our national fabric for generations. But now, the progressive attitude of "separate but equal", a sort of liberal caste system, applies in the world of the enlightened. No one will admit it, but that's what it is.
Bullsh"t.
It boggles my mind that my city's website has translations into 29 languages. Swedish? Welsh? ummm, yeah, those immigrants are all over the place here. NOT.
I do understand Serbian, Croation, Vietnamese, and whatever language Somalians speak (French?) because we have major immigrant populations that speak those languages, but many of them are useless. I can only hope a big fat government grant from the Feds enables this multicultural extravaganza.The city is fighting a deficit and "Galacian" translation of city web information is unaffordable luxury. Of course, the Feds can afford it, printing money as they do.
our city's website:
http://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/information-technology/web-development/web-accessibility/translate.cfm?click=english
edited to add:
how enlightening that I can see the beautiful scroll alphabet of Thai language laying out the specifics of St. Louis building violations:
การอนุรักษ์ที่อยู่อาศัย
... 62887, ที่อยู่อาศัยการตรวจสอบการอนุรักษ์เมืองอำเภอตรวจสอบ รหัสขั้นพื้นฐานที่ออกแบบมาเพื่อตรวจสอบน้อยที่สุดสำ หรับการตกแต่งภายในอาคารรหัสการละเมิดและตอบสนอ ง...
some things are too absurd, I just have to laugh. And truth be told I 've always loved Thai writing, so pretty.
They haven't translated the site into those languages - they just offer a Google Translate widget to make a (probably very poor) machine translation of the original English site. That's worse than offering a handful of genuine translations, in my opinion.
We have a wonderful myth of "assimilation" in this country, and over time, all groups that have come here have assimilated, but the idea that in the past, immigrants came here and all of them assimilated and learned English is simply a myth. Studies show that the rate of assimilation is as fast, if not faster now than it was in the past.
This made me think of my Grandfather who spoke only his grandparent's native language until he was in late elementary school. His parents had been born in the U.S. I think that's probably less likely to happen today than it was then. He didn't have TV and other mass media as readily available and his community was very closed. No one he knew spoke English. For the record that Grandpa grew up and joined the miliary where he became fluent in several different languages from Italian to Mandarin Chinese.
They haven't translated the site into those languages - they just offer a Google Translate widget to make a (probably very poor) machine translation of the original English site. That's worse than offering a handful of genuine translations, in my opinion.
That's a relief. I couldn't see the point of offering most of those languages.
my opinion if that if you come to America, you learn the lauguage. Keep your culture, but learn our language so you can be safe on the road, able to communicate and learn. English is our language, everyone who comes here knows this, so get on with it. If not willing to do this, stay across the border.
IshbelRobertson
9-24-11, 5:25pm
'Your' language?
Excuse me.......!!!!
my opinion if that if you come to America, you learn the lauguage. Keep your culture, but learn our language so you can be safe on the road, able to communicate and learn. English is our language, everyone who comes here knows this, so get on with it. If not willing to do this, stay across the border.
So get on with it... Whatever does this mean? Sounds very parental; nearly punitive - is that how you mean it?
How much English? At what point in their residency? What happens to an immigrant if they cannot learn this language? And, the heart of 'keeping culture' is language. Immigrants become bicultural, but it isn't a switch, and either/or, on/off thing. More like a continuum. Immigrants retain language, cooking, religious, and social traditions as well as adapt to and adopt those new traditions and practices in their new country.
Where on that continuum is your expectation of immigrants? First grade literacy? MA level literacy? Literacy in spoken as well as written? What if they are illiterate in their own language? What if they are elder with a cognitive impairment? The brain has an optimal window of development within which learning new languages is primal, and after that (about age 6), it is much, much harder, and for some, impossible to learn more than basics. What then?
"my opinion if that if you come to America, you learn the lauguage. "
Did you miss the part about how that isn't always as easy as it sounds?
My partner's father never really mastered English, but he managed to work to support his family, and all his many offspring learned it in early childhood. My partner spoke only Spanish until he went to school, and then the full immersion method worked its magic. That's the way it works for most immigrants, and that's the way it's worked since time began, I imagine.
loosechickens
9-24-11, 8:16pm
"my opinion if that if you come to America, you learn the lauguage. Keep your culture, but learn our language so you can be safe on the road, able to communicate and learn. English is our language, everyone who comes here knows this, so get on with it. If not willing to do this, stay across the border." (Tenngal)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious, Tenngal.....how many languages have you learned to speak as an adult? Because if you have NOT had the experience of learning a foreign language (and remember that English is quite a difficult language to learn as a second language) as an adult, you have no idea of how easy it is to toss off "come to our country, learn our language" and how difficult such a thing IS in real life.
It's been my experience among the people I know in real life that people who have this attitude have seldom traveled much outside this country, are monolingual themselves, and if you scratch the surface of that attitude, what you really find is fear of "the other", an apprehension of "those people taking over MY country", which really has nothing to do with language or its fluency, but reflects far more the anxieties of the person with the opinion. I have no way of knowing if this is the case in your own situation, of course, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, although I do not share it.
Long, long before I had any sort of competency in Spanish while living in Mexico and various countries in Central America, I was perfectly capable of driving safely, obeying traffic signs (which, after all, do not require a large vocabulary), and considered the learning part to be an ongoing process that would take years to accomplish.
Look, it would be ideal if we immersed small children into language learning at a very early age. Learning a language as a small child is very easy, when the language receptors in the brain are open, and learning is sucked up as into a dry sponge. It is a very different proposition as an adult.
Hopefully, you'll never find yourself in the situation of having to survive in a foreign country, struggle to learn the language as an adult, in an atmosphere of people there who have an attitude of "get on with it" toward you, impatient, and hostile during YOUR very long, uncomfortable learning period. But, until you actually experience that in your life, your attitude will probably remain the same. Afterward, should you find yourself in that situation, I'd be surprised if you didn't change your mind.
early morning
9-24-11, 10:21pm
This made me think of my Grandfather who spoke only his grandparent's native language until he was in late elementary school. His parents had been born in the U.S.
+1 My grandfather (b. 1888) also never spoke English until he began school. His parents, also, were born in the US but spoke quite broken English. My father told us how difficult it was for him to understand his grandmother and his great aunts and uncles. I don't think that was particularly uncommon... Stella and I don't hail from the same part of the country, far as I know!
Square Peg
9-25-11, 3:27pm
+1 My grandfather (b. 1888) also never spoke English until he began school. His parents, also, were born in the US but spoke quite broken English. My father told us how difficult it was for him to understand his grandmother and his great aunts and uncles. I don't think that was particularly uncommon... Stella and I don't hail from the same part of the country, far as I know!
This was my family's experience too. My grandparents came to Chicago from Poland in the 1910s. My grandfather learned some broken English. Very limited. My grandmother never learned English. They both lived the rest of their lives as Americans, had 11 kids, purchased a home they were able to leave to their sons upon their (my grandparents') death. My mother never spoke English until she started school.
Mighty Frugal
9-26-11, 12:49pm
I am a first generation Canadian. My parents came here not speaking English or French. English was not my first language (even though I was born here) and I began kindergarten not having a firm grasp of the English language. All I remember is not being able to pronounce the word 'milk' aside from that, I thought I could speak English-haha. I remember being sent to special classes and wondering why I was there (I always had a lot of self esteem when it came to my brains-haha)
I dealt with a lot of prejudice. A lot of 'why don't' you speak English?' So topics like these are tender in my heart. I completely feel for all the new immigrants and all the 1st generation Americans/Canadians because, I too, lived that childhood.
My parents continue to speak broken English. Certainly enough to get by, and when I speak to them it is a combo English/Italian and we all get by.
I see no problem with just allowing everyone who is legally allowed to live here to 'get by'.
I see no problem with just allowing everyone who is legally allowed to live here to 'get by'.
I don't think there's any doubt that everyone who is legally allowed to live here may 'get by', if that is their desire. I think the question is how much accommodation should society/government provide to ensure that no one has to do more than that.
At this point in our history, with our penchant for identity politics and political correctness, we like to accommodate everyone in every way. We even encourage people to believe that they have a right to society's accommodation, or at least it's approval.
We're a conceited species I think.
chanterelle
9-26-11, 2:20pm
Alan, I think the real conceit is expecting everybody to speak English "just like me" to beconsidered a "real' American or Canadian.
It is even more silly given that the last set of figures that I heard state that 40% of native born Americans are functionaly illiterate and even more function at a 4th grade level for vocabulary and syntax. [I have no info on Canada]
In regard to the original post...considering that student loans are such an enormus cash cow for the banks and the schools that push them, having a language line that insures that those payments are made seems like savy business sense rather than accommodation.
Alan, I think the real conceit is expecting everybody to speak English "just like me" to beconsidered a "real' American or Canadian.
Then I'm sure you'll be pleased to realize that no one expressed that belief.
the worst part of not speaking English is how much you can be taken advantage of...........by anyone who is dishonest. And, how can you make sure the children learn English, if you cannot? Not too sure public schools have enough ESL staffing to take up the slack. Ps, don't think I am quilty of ALL the things I was accused of..................
I believe the second generation of any immigrant group will speak the dominant language, as expressed above--at least if they're exposed to it. I don't know how useful or effective the ESL or parallel track approach is, but I know assisted immersion works. First generation immigrants more often struggle, as learning a new language is difficult for most adults. Four of my great-grandparents came to this country speaking German; none of my grandparents spoke anything but English.
chanterelle
9-26-11, 6:57pm
the worst part of not speaking English is how much you can be taken advantage of...........by anyone who is dishonest. And, how can you make sure the children learn English, if you cannot? Not too sure public schools have enough ESL staffing to take up the slack. Ps, don't think I am quilty of ALL the things I was accused of..................
Tenngal, my point in favor of language assistance lines is so that those who do not have a clear grasp of English yet will not be taken advantage of make serious and difficult to correct mistakes or worse avoid full participation in daily life for fear of doing so.
For the most part, people who do not speak English do not do so as a willfull act. Circumstances for learning, levels of timidity and abilities vary greatly.
I am fluent in several languages, and like my father and grandfather have a peculiar arrangement of synapses and neurons which allows me to learn languages effortlessly, in an almost organic fashion. My siblings are a different story. Despite being blessed with almost total recall, which would make grammar and vocabulary easy to acquire and perfect pitch which should make intonation and pronunciation easy to assume, were never able to get more than the most rudimentary reading skills, even trying several different languages. They made great effort, and believe me, in my father's house you made GREAT effort, or else.
After a time most people learn some or more than some basic functioning English. As for their children, well I live in a polyglot neighborhood in a wider polyglot city.....the children learn English..often to the point of forgetting large chunks of vocabulary of the language which is spoken at home. Often the children are the main translators for the family at large.
I feel that language assistance allows people to fully function in their wider society and that makes them better citizens and neighbors.
iris lily
9-26-11, 10:02pm
Also, with many immigrants, I think that they don't necessarily want to be here, but they are here because this is the land of opportunity and they are making a BIG sacrifice for their children. They take the hard road, not the easy one. That is admirable, I love that. It can be easier to be in your homeland, with your extended family and community and your language and culture. Here they make do with low level jobs working long long hours struggling with the language because they want their children to have the better life offered up in this country. Honestly, I see it often here. St. Louis has a lot of immigrants and the ones I know don't sit around collecting welfare.Now, that is a different issue. hmmm, I think that I won't bring that one up.:laff:
We have a large Burmese population here in Indy that are refugees due to religious issues. Over half of one of our elementary schools is Burmese and Hispanic children where English is a Second Language and some are very recent refugees. This school is amazingly able to achieve "adequate yearly progress" because the children and parents are committed, the teachers are good, and the population is stable (doesn't move around) if growing. This school has gone from a little over 400 to over 600 children in the last few years.
We just had a talk by the principal since our guild was donating quilts for the families. They have nothing when they arrive but have a good community already created to help them.
iris lily
9-30-11, 10:20am
A couple of days ago here I mentioned the great Bosnian community we have here, and yesterday the New York Times featured that community:
http://tinyurl.com/6eaxvuc
iris lily
9-30-11, 10:31am
DH worked in the green industry for several years doing tree and lawn care, landscaping, etc. His company employed a lot of Mexicans who were here legally, but they were not citizens. Those guys, for they were almost always guys, were very very hardworking as a group, but as a group, were not "ambitious" in a climbing-the-corporate-ladder sense. For every 10 guys who worked hard but didn't look to move up, there was 1 who did. And the mechanism for doing that was to learn English--that opened doors for him in being a team leader (could negotiate with clients) and driving and taking the tests, etc.
the worst part of not speaking English is how much you can be taken advantage of...........by anyone who is dishonest. And, how can you make sure the children learn English, if you cannot? Not too sure public schools have enough ESL staffing to take up the slack. Ps, don't think I am quilty of ALL the things I was accused of..................
Often it's the kids who learn English first and help teach the parents. My college boyfriend's grandparents came over from Finland when his mom was little. She learned English by going to school (not ESL classes) and shared that with her parents at home. I used to have a neighbor whose parents both came from Italy. He learned English in school. His Dad learned the English he needed for his work and his Mom learned some 'shopping' English, though she managed just fine without ever learning to read either Italian or English.
It is also easy to say people should learn the language, and over look the fact that they ARE learning it, as they go along. It's not an overnight thing!
The Spanish/English thing has never really bothered me. Though I understand in general, the human race feels threatened by change and difference so am not surprised by the anger.
Is anyone watching Prohibition on PBS right now. Fascinating stuff - there is a lot of crossover I think between the English only sentiment today and English only sentiment in the early 20th century. It is anti-immigrant - as was prohibition - anti German and and anti Irish and anti Italian. ...I realize I am rambling...:treadmill:
loosechickens
10-4-11, 2:59pm
yes, DonkaDoo.....we ARE watching the PBS series on Prohibition, and both of us were struck by the similarities, the feelings of nativist people feeling overwhelmed by the newcomers, the threat of new languages, cultures, foods, drinking habits, etc., etc.
it really is true that there is nothing new under the sun, and also true that we seem to be a people who learn very little from history.......
not just the immigrant stuff, but the similarities with our present "War on Drugs" is also inescapable, as is the readiness of folks to step forward to make millions filling the niche of supplier to all the folks wanting to buy. What, after all, is the difference between the way the Mexican drug cartels have become enriched and powerful and the way the gangs of folks like Al Capone got money and power back in their day?
Absolutely wonderful series, on several levels......incredibly interesting old films and photos, interesting history, and when you look at the lessons we COULD be learning and the ways we COULD be seeing current issues through the prism of history, even more valuable.
Also, with many immigrants, I think that they don't necessarily want to be here, but they are here because this is the land of opportunity and they are making a BIG sacrifice for their children. They take the hard road, not the easy one. That is admirable, I love that. It can be easier to be in your homeland, with your extended family and community and your language and culture. Here they make do with low level jobs working long long hours struggling with the language because they want their children to have the better life offered up in this country. Honestly, I see it often here. St. Louis has a lot of immigrants and the ones I know don't sit around collecting welfare.Now, that is a different issue. hmmm, I think that I won't bring that one up.:laff:
This is how I see immigrants too. Northeast Minneapolis, my home turf, has been one of the areas new immigrants come to when they come to Minneapolis for over a century. Those are some hard working people and some of them have done quite well. It has also lended a wonderful flavour to the neighborhood. We have a lot of great ethnic restaurants to choose from, that's for sure.
Another thing I admire about immigrants is that many of them actually know how to do things. They can cook and build things and fix things and sew and weave and all kinds of things a lot of Americans have replaced with shopping. I'm all for more of that.
...Is anyone watching Prohibition on PBS right now. Fascinating stuff - there is a lot of crossover I think between the English only sentiment today and English only sentiment in the early 20th century. It is anti-immigrant - as was prohibition - anti German and and anti Irish and anti Italian. ...I realize I am rambling...:treadmill:
I watched much of it over the past evenings since our local guy, Auggie Busch, figured prominently. The Temperance League was one of the progressive groups of the time, attempting to steer citizens toward a way of life that the League knew was better for them, regardless of the citizens' sentiment.
I live in the midst of Anheuser-Busch land, and it's amazing how many saloons are built into the Victorian fabric in the area immediately surrouding the AB headquarters. There is one on every corner. Until recently, brewery workers could drink the brew while on the job, and every Friday each man received a pack of beer.
Just a thought, but sometimes it is easier for the English speaker if the English as a second language person reverts to their native language. Both my parents are immigrants and though they both are fluent in English, there have been countless occasions where I have had to intervene and translate because the other party couldn't understand them through their accent. It is very hard to lose your native accent
I've never seen a case where children of immigrants have failed to assimilate and learn the language and culture of their new homeland. Children very much want to fit in to their new country.
I live in the midst of Anheuser-Busch land, and it's amazing how many saloons are built into the Victorian fabric in the area immediately surrouding the AB headquarters. There is one on every corner. Until recently, brewery workers could drink the brew while on the job, and every Friday each man received a pack of beer.
My Dad used to give the garbage men beer every year for Christmas.
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