View Full Version : to Iris Lily: on learning the shotgun
Blackdog Lin
10-10-11, 8:22am
First, so sorry about your break in. Glad you are okay.
You asked about learning how to shoot a shotgun. I have some perspective on this, as a 54-year old woman who had never shot a gun in her life (gun phobia). I now have my very own personal shotgun, and I'm having so much fun getting better with it.
I would recommend you look for WomenOnTarget workshops as a first step. They're sponsored by the NRA, and held all over the country. It's a daylong workshop, women only, and the three I've attended have all had excellent and caring instructors. With being a newbie to firearms, what I really liked about these workshops is that they let you try out, under safe and comfortable conditions, all kinds of different firearms to see what you are most comfortable with, or like the best. We shot several types of handguns, high-caliber rifles, shotguns, black-powder guns, archery (and the last one I attended even had BOW FISHING! Shooting a bow-and-arrow at FISH! I was blown away at the very concept, never having heard of it before. Very fun.) :)
Anyway, I went into this thinking I wanted to learn to safely use a handgun, seeming the easiest/most sensible gun for a small woman. After 2 workshops, I ended up falling in love with shotgun shooting, for no reason I can see, it was just the one that spoke to me somehow. And after learning that a shotgun makes a decent home-defense gun, that was it. Got my own youth-model 20 ga, and I'm off and running with it (not literally) :)
It's not that hard to learn to use a shotgun. I think it's like any other firearm: you just have to commit to the learning process and to getting out there and practicing with it. I'm now very good at safe-practices and loading, not so good at actually hitting a target, and still need a workshop on proper care and cleaning. (I also need the Hunter's Safety Course, but my work schedule so far has precluded my getting this done. It's on my list.)
But I would still recommend attending a WOT day for any woman contemplating learning a firearm. It's a wonderful tool to learn what kind of gun you feel most comfortable with. (It's also a fun way to make new friends, get a good lunch, and there's always plenty of swag given away too!)
May I jump in here with a question, please? Are longer guns considered safer because ....well, just because they're longer? What are the advantages of a shotgun over, say, a hand gun? Thanks!
May I jump in here with a question, please? Are longer guns considered safer because ....well, just because they're longer? What are the advantages of a shotgun over, say, a hand gun? Thanks!
Some people like a shotgun for home defense because it can be loaded with shells that fire many pellets in a wide spread. So if someone was coming at you and you fired in their general direction, you will hit them with at least some of the pellets. A handgun would shoot one bullet at a time in a very straight line and would require a lot more accuracy.
I grew up on a farm with an ex-Marine for a father, so I learned about guns and gun safety at a young age and I'm a pretty good shot. Even so, I would imagine that in a high stress situation, I would not be very accurate. That being said, the only shotgun I have is a .410 that my father-in-law gave me. It's a fancy bird hunting shotgun and is almost as long as I am tall and is probably useless as a defense weapon.
iris lily
10-10-11, 10:35am
Thanks for that. The shotgun is sounding better and better, but I don't know what type DH has.
freein05
10-10-11, 12:44pm
I learned to shoot when I was 14 and have shot and owned rifles, pistols, and even machine guns in the army. Never owned a machine gun. The only home defense weapon I have now is a shotgun. You can get them with short barrels. Mine is 20 inches long.
Blackdog Lin
10-10-11, 8:59pm
Iris Lily: don't go into shotgun practice just 'cause that's what DH has in the house. Yeah, it was the best answer for me, but it's not gonna be the best home/self-defense answer for ALL women. My take on it all:
(1) think/decide: do I REALLY want to get into/learn about firearms? Does it fit with my current thinking/lifestyle? If yes, then.....
(2) am I serious enough about it to commit some of my rare spare-time to learning about it? If yes, then.....
(3) WHAT type of firearm would I like to learn? Here's where a WOT day would help. Then.....
(4) How do I get instruction? Instruction that fits with my life/schedules? DH's generally do not provide the proper safety instruction. Plus they get IMPATIENT with us, knowing us as they do. I decided to sign up for all and every women-only workshop or weekend on firearm-instruction. Even in my backwoods location, I've been able to find (workshops) to help my learning. Alas, I've been unable to attend many of the ones I'd have like to go to further my learning. It's a wash. :)
TO SUM-UP FROM MY WOMENLY PERSPECTIVE: if you'd like to learn firearms, figure out first what gun you like to shoot. Go from there. You are more likely to learn and practice on what you LIKE than on any other firearm that someone says "you should have for home-defense".....
iris lily
10-10-11, 9:01pm
Believe me, I've already decided that any gun instruction would not be provided by DH.;)
My home defense weapon is a pump shotgun with a barrel slightly longer than the legal...18" I think. The traditional stock has been replaced with pistol grip stock. The conversion is with an old hunting weapon, but they can be purchased like that for generally less than a handgun. The shorter gun allows for better mobility and the short barrel allows for a wide coverage of pellets in close quarters. The gun nuts at a local gun shop have told me this is close to ideal for home defense, though it's not as concealable and mobile as a handgun. In my state it doesn't require a special permit to carry. A little more intimidating to an intruder than a handgun, too. Hope to goodness I never have to use it.
I've been around guns ever since I was a kid for hunting and competition target shooting. I can't stress enough how important it is to assume the responsibility to have some sort of training to become comfortable and competent with firearms before a real need arises.
Yossarian
10-10-11, 10:10pm
Some people like a shotgun for home defense because it can be loaded with shells that fire many pellets in a wide spread. So if someone was coming at you and you fired in their general direction, you will hit them with at least some of the pellets. .
At most home defense ranges the pattern really doesn't open that much. The best features to me are the simplicity of design and some degree of safety given the lack of down range penetration. Then there is also the quintisential sound of cycling a pump, cha-chink, that has a great psychological effect.
At most home defense ranges the pattern really doesn't open that much. The best features to me are the simplicity of design and some degree of safety given the lack of down range penetration. Then there is also the quintisential sound of cycling a pump, cha-chink, that has a great psychological effect.
How would the pattern be affected if you had a shortened barrel like the one Rogar described? The people I know that have a home defense shotgun have all had a shortened double-barrel, not a pump shotgun. But I do appreciate the distinctive cha-chink. I think anyone who has seen an action movie knows that sound.
How would the pattern be affected if you had a shortened barrel like the one Rogar described? The people I know that have a home defense shotgun have all had a shortened double-barrel, not a pump shotgun. But I do appreciate the distinctive cha-chink. I think anyone who has seen an action movie knows that sound.
The pattern isn't affected much because the typical range of fire in a home environment is under 10 feet. You just don't get a lot of dispersment at that range. That said, you're still much more likely to hit your target with a shotgun shell than with a bullet.
My favorite home/vehicle defense weapon incorporates the best of all worlds, a Taurus Judge, which is chambered for .45 Colt and 410 shotshell.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPKd_ThUex-ircyEJF0zTmMtYOXEoMNZNyfAfZrr9JV9zoqmhpXw
Stagger your load with a 410 shell as your first shot and the .45 as your second and you've covered all bases. The 410 is likely to be non-lethal and yet, if it fails to stop an intruder, the .45 will stop him in his tracks.
Blackdog Lin
10-13-11, 8:20pm
Alan: very cool. I want one.
And yeah, the "cha-ching" of the pump action I think is one of the reasons I gravitated to the shotgun, silly though it may be. Still, I feel empowered, I feel competent, I feel in control - slapping my shells in and pumping the action and being ready to go.....it's kinda sexy. (And this from a former gun-phobic!)
From my recent training, though, I've learned that there are three basic types of shotguns. Pump-action, semi-auto, and (is it breach? Break? I forget the proper term.) I'm a big fan of the pump-action type. Other types of shotguns may be more suitable for other women.....
Okay, the Taurus Judge is wild! I've never seen one of those before.
Blackdog Lin, I know what you mean when you describe your feelings about your shotgun. I feel the same way about my Mini-30. It just makes me feel cool to shoot it!
Blackdog Lin
10-22-11, 8:45pm
daisy - please tell me about your Mini-30. A handgun? Other? I'm wanting to learn about other types of firearms, and am open to ideas about what other guns might broaden my horizons, as it were. I mean, if it's fun to us, we're more willing to practice and learn, yes? I would LOVE to find a handgun to be interested in.....
A Ruger Mini-30 is a semi-automatic rifle that uses 7.62x39 mm shells. All I ever do is target shoot, so it's a little over the top for plinking, but it's just so darned fun! I love the cha-chink it makes when you drop the slide to chamber a round. Then it gives off a big, fiery muzzle blast and flings the spent casing out about 10 feet with every shot. It's also gas-operated, so it has almost no kick when you shoot it.
I don't have a picture of mine, but this is the version I have, with the laminated stock:
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m66/scotto01/My%20Firearms/100_6095.jpg
As for handguns, I have a few, including a Wild West looking .22 revolver that is fun for target shooting, but I'm not sure I've found a handgun that is as fun as the Mini-30.
daisy - please tell me about your Mini-30. A handgun? Other? I'm wanting to learn about other types of firearms, and am open to ideas about what other guns might broaden my horizons, as it were. I mean, if it's fun to us, we're more willing to practice and learn, yes? I would LOVE to find a handgun to be interested in.....
Lin, you might want to go to any range (indoor and outdoor) as most have handguns and rifles you can try. You can then decide what you like best. I have several handguns, shotguns (one a .12 gauge short barrelled, pistol grip which is my best "under the bed home defense weapon"), and a couple of rifles - one an older mini-14 Rugar rifle pretty much like Daisy's Mini-30, but with a retractable stock. But I have shot with alot of different things as well. One problem I have with handguns - especially revolvers - is the grip - usually too large for my smallish hands. So I replaced the grips with ones that are easier for me on my bigger handguns (Rugar Security-Siix 357 magnum and a Dan Wesson .44). It makes a WORLD of difference. So try to get the gun range to put on different grips if you want to try bigger guns.
As for Iris Lily - besides Alan's "to die for" handgun, I'd stick with a shot gun for home secruity. As for my home handguns (vs. the little .380 Berreta I carry with me for personal defense - also with staggered rounds like Alan - full metal jacket/hollow points) I generally like revolvers - especially the the .357 Magnum as it's very easy to use and relable to use unlike some pistols. my sister, who works as armed security for a defense contractor, has numerous weapons as well - and like her Glock 9mm the best for a handgun and an AR-15 (civilian version of the M-16) for a rifle.
Yossarian
10-25-11, 5:37pm
One problem I have with handguns - especially revolvers - is the grip - usually too large for my smallish hands....
I generally like revolvers - especially the the .357 Magnum as it's very easy to use and relable to use unlike some pistols.
I suggest looking at S&W J frame revolvers. Variety of calibers, fits smaller hands well, uber reliable, concealable, and the lightweight versions weigh less than 12 oz.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category1_750001_750051_757768_-1_757767_757751
One problem I have with handguns - especially revolvers - is the grip - usually too large for my smallish hands. So I replaced the grips with ones that are easier for me on my bigger handguns (Rugar Security-Siix 357 magnum and a Dan Wesson .44).
That Security Six is a sweet gun. My mom now has my dad's, but she's afraid to use it, so I'm hoping she'll pass it on to me someday.
That Security Six is a sweet gun. My mom now has my dad's, but she's afraid to use it, so I'm hoping she'll pass it on to me someday.
Yeah I like it - packs a punch too :-)! I'm getting rid of everything except the beretta .380, the Security Six and the .12 gauge shotgun. Normally I only carry the beretta but still have those reoccuring nightmares from law enforcement days (Colt .45 and Beretta 9mm) that any pistol I have will jam - so do feel a bit safer with a revolver (double action, no saftey too). Rugar is too big to carry around though so might look for a smaller revolver like East River Guide suggested.
Yeah I like it - packs a punch too :-)! I'm getting rid of everything except the beretta .380, the Security Six and the .12 gauge shotgun. Normally I only carry the beretta but still have those reoccuring nightmares from law enforcement days (Colt .45 and Beretta 9mm) that any pistol I have will jam - so do feel a bit safer with a revolver (double action, no saftey too). Rugar is too big to carry around though so might look for a smaller revolver like East River Guide suggested.
I have a Ruger SP101 .357 5-shot revolver. It's a great little gun and is what I keep in my nightstand. It's heavier than the S&W revolvers, but when I worked nights I carried it with me.
I have a Ruger SP101 .357 5-shot revolver. It's a great little gun and is what I keep in my nightstand. It's heavier than the S&W revolvers, but when I worked nights I carried it with me.
Thanks for the tip - will look into that. I only wish that revolvers held more ammo (those zombie hoardes come in more then 6 packs ya know :-)!). I do have a couple of speed loaders but..eh... kind of a pain. I have extended clips/magazines for the pistol rather then the 8 rounds it normally holds (yes, I know, illegal) but I guess I really don't need more.
My favorite home/vehicle defense weapon incorporates the best of all worlds, a Taurus Judge, which is chambered for .45 Colt and 410 shotshell.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPKd_ThUex-ircyEJF0zTmMtYOXEoMNZNyfAfZrr9JV9zoqmhpXw
Stagger your load with a 410 shell as your first shot and the .45 as your second and you've covered all bases. The 410 is likely to be non-lethal and yet, if it fails to stop an intruder, the .45 will stop him in his tracks.
I'll take issue with this advice.
The Judge is a very niche firearm, and not the generally-useful tool the huge advertising push is making it out to be, cool though it sounds to have a handheld shotgun :-) It is a marketing triumph, but a poor choice all around for a self-defense firearm compared to most other alternatives. It is large, cumbersome, points poorly, and the terminal ballistics of its cartridges are poor.
.410 is generally an ineffective defensive load, and the short, rifled barrel of the Judge doesn't even make it a particularly good mini-shotgun for hunting purposes either. .45LC loads can be effective, but effective .45LC loads aren't particularly common, and tend to be expensive, and if you *want* to have a .45LC handgun, there are better ones for the job on the market.
The advice to load "non-lethal" rounds first is also poor. You want the most effective rounds you can reliably shoot accurately and with speed.
Thanks for the tip - will look into that. I only wish that revolvers held more ammo (those zombie hoardes come in more then 6 packs ya know ...
You just need the right revolver :-) Like this Smith & Wesson, in .357 Magnum. With the right grips like this, and a nice Kydex holster inside the waistband, it's easy to carry and conceal.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JyjPC0aGsxo/TDZGEDCEaKI/AAAAAAAABKA/16c0OdsNr10/s720/img_0325.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nkUlINK8Qz8/TDZF4OGMXfI/AAAAAAAABJo/C6mvRtf4WBc/s640/img_0320.jpg
I'll take issue with this advice.
The Judge is a very niche firearm, and not the generally-useful tool the huge advertising push is making it out to be, cool though it sounds to have a handheld shotgun :-) It is a marketing triumph, but a poor choice all around for a self-defense firearm compared to most other alternatives. It is large, cumbersome, points poorly, and the terminal ballistics of its cartridges are poor.
.410 is generally an ineffective defensive load, and the short, rifled barrel of the Judge doesn't even make it a particularly good mini-shotgun for hunting purposes either. .45LC loads can be effective, but effective .45LC loads aren't particularly common, and tend to be expensive, and if you *want* to have a .45LC handgun, there are better ones for the job on the market.
The advice to load "non-lethal" rounds first is also poor. You want the most effective rounds you can reliably shoot accurately and with speed.
Thanks for the critique, and welcome back.
I'm of the opinion that effective personal defense in your home or vehicle doesn't necessarily require lethal force as the first option as long as it is available as a second . I also believe that unless a person is well, and regularly, trained with their weapon, they need every advantage during the high stress event. A dose of 000 buckshot can be quite effective within the typical personal defense range of 10 feet and closer, with it's three .36 caliber balls spaced in a circle about the size of a man's head at that range. And with the .45 Colt less than a second behind it if need be, I'd feel pretty good about depending on this particular weapon.
Different strokes I guess.
Well, I've spent some time shooting the Judge with various loads into calibrated test media, and the results generally don't meet the FBI terminal ballistics performance standards. I've also hit 16 out of 25 birds with a .410 derringer at the trap range, but it was a dicey thing, you had to know about the huge hole in the pattern as a result of the rifling...
I would never advise someone use a firearm, a lethal instrument, as a non-lethal response by using inferior ammunition. You'll still likely seriously injure or perhaps kill the fellow (.22LR rounds are quite lethal, as is a single shotgun pellet in the correct place), and the law will take the view that you used lethal force, but you run the more important danger of that "less lethal" round not stopping your assailant.
Self-defense solutions that rely on staggering/stacking trick ammo aren't advisable, IMO. You get inconsistent shot-to-shot recovery times, different points of impact, potential malfunction issues, and finally, you have to ask yourself, why are you relying on some special magic ammo....
Most serious instructors do not recommend that type of approach.
Keep it simple, get a reasonable weapon, and learn when and how to use it. A trick piece of hardware isn't the solution.
YMMV.
Here's a couple of other opinions:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/taurus_judge.htm
iris lily
11-3-11, 11:31pm
I think BD Lin's story is interesting, that she found a firearm that was appealing. I like the idea of a basic, classic weapon so am not sure that Alan's favorite would appeal to me.
bae, glad you are back, I was hoping that you'd show about now.
Self-defense solutions that rely on staggering/stacking trick ammo aren't advisable, IMO.
Men, bears, and zombies - ya gotta be able to get 'em all :-)! Although most people wouldn't consider my staggered rounds as trick ammo. I'd personally love to have Alan's gun but agree that .410 rounds won't do the job - but they would hurt like heck!!!
Love the 8 round revolver Btw!
I think BD Lin's story is interesting, that she found a firearm that was appealing. I like the idea of a basic, classic weapon so am not sure that Alan's favorite would appeal to me.
Look online at firearms training in your area. Tons of places that will let you shoot just about everything under the sun! My sister just got back from a 2 day camp where she could shoot 100's of different firearms free with instructions if you wanted it (gotta buy your own ammo though and that's where the expense comes in). They also have week long camps too (adults only -mostly male) all over the country.
Well, I've spent some time shooting the Judge with various loads into calibrated test media, and the results generally don't meet the FBI terminal ballistics performance standards.
The last episode of Shooting Gallery featured ballistic tests of numerous calibers and loads. The first few .410 loads out of the Judge performed poorly, but the Remmington home defense load with four 000 buck balls had 18 plus inches of penetration (they exited the 18 inch gelatin block on the fly), so if you want to use a .410 Judge make sure you pick the right ammo. Of course, even the best .410 loads were no where close to the 12 gauge.
You can load some handguns with buck shot also ... The kind that has many pellets that spread out.
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