One big problem I see with the economy.....

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have been thinking the past few days about the state of the US economy and one take I have on it is this - too much of it is dependent on what I consider frivious spending.....Anyone else out there agree with this? And now that the boom is gone, there is not enough money left for most people to be very frivilous....How does one fix that? And if it could be fixed, would it even be desirable to fix it? I don't have the answers but the more I think of it, and lately I have had some time to actually think (a good thing), it seems to me that we need to find some new kind of economic model that is not so dependent on frivilous spending.....Any thoughts out there? Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

I am thinking that things that have been mentioned in other threads are going to be the way of the future. More bartering, and more dependence on local goods. More people gardening, walking, making do with what they have. More people living in shared housing and when houses are built they will be smaller. And by doing so needing less money to live. Of course, around me they are still building 5 bedroom, 5 bathroom megahouses but I am thinking it has to come to an end.

We also need to revisit education. Borrowing vast sums of money to major in English or History are things of the past. For those that do go to University more of an emphasis on a career. Despite the 9% unemployment rate in my area they still advertise for nurses and other health professionals and for a good wage. Home health aides and those that assist the elderly will be needed.

I think one of the things that will save us if we buy local is that while you may not be able to furnish a living room for $999 with cheap stuff that lasts three years, you may be able to find a local craftsman who will make you or refinish a chair that will last a lifetime. Fewer pieces of furniture that are better made.

As a quilter I have quilts that have been on my beds for 25 years that are finally faded and wearing out, however if I got a cheap quilt made in China that you see advertised it likely would have worn out way before now and not be a work of art, and not nearly as warm. Do you want 18 pairs of cheap shoes or one pair that fits well, is well crafted and beautiful.

For those of us who remember days before credit cards and all this media and cheap imported goods life was different. One TV, one phone in the kitchen. No money on cable because there wasn't any. No one vacationed by flying in an airplane. No strawberries in January, hand me downs, a few small gifts for Christmas. One car and a mom that stayed home. A friend and I were remembering how we didn't know anyone who had their own room as a kid. Many of us had girls and boys sharing a room in a family. Now you rarely find a kid who doesn't have a room with a tv. There were no fast food restaurants when I was a kid, can you imagine? Way more kids attending local colleges and staying home, and staying home after high school to save up money was very common.

We have the opportunity to shift to a life that is healthier, happier and more rewarding but I fear the transition will be quite difficult. But I would not feel sad to live in a neighborhood where a parent was able to stay home with their kids when they were growing up and there was more community. By doing so there would be many fewer people in the workforce for the jobs that were there.

[San Onofre Guy]

Flowers you nailed it on the education issue. I am 48 and 11 months old. When I went to college only about 15% of the class did. That doesn't mean that the rest didn't do something, but trade schools for electricians, technicians, and LVN's were very popular. Actually borrowing for college made sense then, even for fluff degrees such as history and english. Don't get me wrong, I am all for one improving themselves intellectually and life should be a lifetime of learning, but too many kids are in college because they are told they need to be in order to be successful...WRONG. There are too many english majors driving a truck or worse playing video games at thier parents house as they can't get a job

[pinkytoe]

Needing (not wanting) a new pair of work shoes, I recently trekked to a nearby strip center that has a shoe store and was blown away by all the shoppers. One shoe store was so crowded I couldn't get through the aisles and women were leaving the store with multiple bags of shoes. I popped into a BedBath and Beyond while there and was again amazed at the number of shoppers and the fluff they were spending their money on. The parking lot was full of new cars - mostly large SUVs or expensive BMWs. I have to say I find it depressing whenever I go out shopping and see the dazed look on shopper's faces as they fill up their baskets with stuff they probably don't need. Consumption is alive and well here. I wish there was another way.

[CathyA]

We have too many people. We save too many people with "terminal" diseases, babies born too soon, and keep people alive to 100. When you have that many people, you need to create ridiculous, silly jobs for them and convince the masses that they need all these things. Yes, we could put those people to work on other things, but we've created a monster, and it doesn't want to change. Its just a circus.
We are raised from a young age that its our duty to "have". Its the American dream, isn't it? To have everything you could ever want without thought for what it took to make it, or where it goes when you tire of it.
I think one reason so many people are out of work is because so many of them were employed to produce unnecessary things.
Remember when Bush said everyone could help by going shopping? Its crazy. Its a snowball going down a hill that we can't seem to stop.
I love the movie "The Village". These people chose to have their own little world. I keep thinking how nice that would be.

[flowerseverywhere]

pinkytoe, I see it a lot around here too and I often wonder. I think some people are so underwater they just have given up.

The shift in thinking has to apply to many facets of our life. My MIL is living in a big house alone, and frets about money, because medicare will be getting more expensive, utilities more expensive, and the future of social security is such I imagine things like cost of living increases will not be as generous as in the past. I told her to sell the house and move in with us. We have lots of room now that the kids are gone and she could have her own bedroom, reading/tv room and bathroom. We even told her that if she sold her house she could use some of the money to alter a space that she even had a private entrance. She would have lots of money left over and could travel, spend her money on whatever she wanted or do whatever she wants to. But she won't think of it because she wants her independence. Another alternative is my SIL and her husband are struggling financially due to a layoff and I suggested the same to them, the three of them could move in together, each of their houses has a lot of space and their financial problems would be solved as she could contribute to their household with the money she would get from her house, maybe taking over utilities, taxes, and house insurance, things you have no choice but to pay. Or they could sell their house and move in with her. They were aghast I would even suggest such a thing. I then suggested an apartment of some kind once the house was sold she would have plenty of money to spend on a very nice place even if she lives to be 110. But she was even more adamant about that suggestion. Oh well. We all are going to continue to be challenged to think out of the box.

[redfox]

A steady state economy would help... Read the works of Herman Daly. I disagree that we have too many people (especially the part about saving too many babies and helping those with terminal diseases... Sheesh, really?), or that too many get educations. Or that some degrees are "fluff". My goodness! I value historians and writers. Education is not just to prepare one for employment, it is also to prepare one for participation in a democracy, and for the sheer joy of learning.

Growth capitalism is a great system for amassing and concentrating wealth in the hands of a few. The system we're in is acting logically. It's time to change the basic OS!

[flowerseverywhere]

A steady state economy would help... Read the works of Herman Daly. I disagree that we have too many people (especially the part about saving too many babies and helping those with terminal diseases... Sheesh, really?), or that too many get educations. Or that some degrees are "fluff". My goodness! I value historians and writers. Education is not just to prepare one for employment, it is also to prepare one for participation in a democracy, and for the sheer joy of learning.

Growth capitalism is a great system for amassing and concentrating wealth in the hands of a few. The system we're in is acting logically. It's time to change the basic OS!

I agree that there is great value in education and we do need writers and historians. I think my point is the idea that you can take out massive loans, live at college and graduate with a degree in English and get a job that will pay for a big house, pay back your loans and achieve the American dream is where the problem lies. Yes, continue to get educated, but the shift has to be with expectations of what that will get for you.

[bae]

I always get depressed when I go back over to the US mainland, and see endless stretches of strip malls filled with people buying and selling poorly-made junk destined for the landfill. It seems like a whole lot of pointless activity and commerce, simply to keep people busy.

[flowerseverywhere]

I always get depressed when I go back over to the US mainland, and see endless stretches of strip malls filled with people buying and selling poorly-made junk destined for the landfill. It seems like a whole lot of pointless activity and commerce, simply to keep people busy.

It also takes peoples minds off really thinking about themselves, relationships and what they can do to further their life purpose. The more junk you buy the more you have to work so it is like and endless hamster wheel. Very few people realize it is possible to get off and have a much more meaningful and productive life.

[pony mom]

I love the movie "The Village". These people chose to have their own little world. I keep thinking how nice that would be.

I saw that movie for about the 4th time a few weeks ago and I've always wondered how it would be to live that way, not knowing how the rest of the world was living. It was all so simple there.

Ever go to a Home Goods store? Great stuff, but most of it unnecessary. It all just makes me sad to have our resources being wasted on junk. The shoppers look like they're on a mission to leave with something, anything. It's all just a big distraction to what's going on in their lives.

One of my clients travelled to India for her job. She was telling me how poor they were, overwhelmed and embarassed when given a tip, and how grateful they were. The company she worked for outsourced jobs to India. Her current job hires people in this country and she says she'd rather outsource. She hires people and they don't show up!!! Aren't people desperate for work? Is this common? Are we putting ourselves out of work?

[happystuff]

It also takes peoples minds off really thinking about themselves, relationships and what they can do to further their life purpose. The more junk you buy the more you have to work so it is like and endless hamster wheel. Very few people realize it is possible to get off and have a much more meaningful and productive life.

I think this is exactly it and I think, for many people, it is based on "fear". Too afraid to REALLY think about the above and, if they do, afraid they won't be able to do anything about it or afraid they will fail if they even try.

[CathyA]

I'm thinking the same thing about all the junk mail I get.......enough to fill a grocery sack every single week! I remember mentioning in another post how the post office was trying to stay afloat by encouraging businesses to send more "junk" mail. Its just one more instance of trying to keep the senseless waste use of resources and energies going, just to help postal workers keep their jobs. Like all the stuff in the Home Goods store that ponymom mention, Its just plain nuts.....producing absolute junk to give people jobs, and then convincing the masses that they need it.

I only get the Sunday paper, delivered to the house. They give Thursday's paper as a freebie. I don't want the Thursday paper. I've called and asked them to quit sending it and they said they can't. If you get the Sunday paper, you HAVE to get the Thursday one too. "But it's FREE!!".........like that is good enough reason to be sending something to someone who doesn't want it.

The vast majority of our mail goes straight into the recycling bag. What an absolute waste! ........but the mailman can keep his job! :(

[pinkytoe]

enough to fill a grocery sack every single week!
Yes the credit card offers and catalogs have gotten out of hand even after signing up for opt out. I can't imagine the trees that must be processed for all this wasted paper which we then "recycle".

[peggy]

It also takes peoples minds off really thinking about themselves, relationships and what they can do to further their life purpose. The more junk you buy the more you have to work so it is like and endless hamster wheel. Very few people realize it is possible to get off and have a much more meaningful and productive life.

I agree. I don't think most people know how to really live without the peripherals we have become accustomed to adding on. You can't just have some people over for a weenie roast, you have to have the biggest grill and the beer keg and the fancy patio furniture, and and and....
Or you can't even do it at home. You MUST go to that new expensive hot dog house cause that's what your guests expect.
You don't need a shop full of expensive wood working equipment to build a shelf,
You don't need a shed full of mowers, aerators, complicated watering systems, etc... to grow tomatoes,
And you don't need a mall to buy a sweater.

But more than that, more than just things, I think people are desperate to buy experiences. All the enjoyable experiences they know are tied to spending money. Sometimes lots of money, like trips and such, when there are probably a hundred local day trips near them that are low cost or even free.

I don't think people who purchase junk and experiences are necessarily shallow or 'bad', I think they just don't know any better. They don't know how.

[flowerseverywhere]

I'm thinking the same thing about all the junk mail I get.......enough to fill a grocery sack every single week! I remember mentioning in another post how the post office was trying to stay afloat by encouraging businesses to send more "junk" mail. Its just one more instance of trying to keep the senseless waste use of resources and energies going, just to help postal workers keep their jobs. Like all the stuff in the Home Goods store that ponymom mention, Its just plain nuts.....producing absolute junk to give people jobs, and then convincing the masses that they need it.

I only get the Sunday paper, delivered to the house. They give Thursday's paper as a freebie. I don't want the Thursday paper. I've called and asked them to quit sending it and they said they can't. If you get the Sunday paper, you HAVE to get the Thursday one too. "But it's FREE!!".........like that is good enough reason to be sending something to someone who doesn't want it.

The vast majority of our mail goes straight into the recycling bag. What an absolute waste! ........but the mailman can keep his job! :(

We get almost no junk mail- here is what I have done, and do every several years to re-register

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt063.shtm

when you get a catalog or credit card offer call their 800 number and tell them to take you off the list. It is a pain in the neck but you can indeed take care of these things. They tell you it will take up to three months but every time I get something I don't want I call. It doesn't happen overnight but then suddenly you notice your mailbox is just about empty.

If a call comes through I listen and try to talk to a supervisor. If that doesn't work I get as much info as possible and tell them I am filing a complaint. It must be the same companies who call for many different things because again, we get very few phone calls. A few slip through, under the guise of a survey or something but again, very few.

This is something you can fight back against. It is a hassle but it can be done. Since we get a few local mailers or a postcard every week from junk mail, and others note how much they get, it is working. I think we must have saved tons of paper by these actions.

[Gregg]

As a quilter I have quilts that have been on my beds for 25 years that are finally faded and wearing out, however if I got a cheap quilt made in China that you see advertised it likely would have worn out way before now and not be a work of art, and not nearly as warm. Do you want 18 pairs of cheap shoes or one pair that fits well, is well crafted and beautiful.

I was at my Mom's house a couple weeks ago, cleaning leaves out of her gutters. When I pulled the hose up the ladder it struck me that the nozzle on the end was the very same nozzle that I performed this chore with over 40 years ago as a kid. Its small, made of solid brass (no plastic) and obviously very durable. It was not made to wear out in a year or throw away after the summer ends. It was made to last. I'm sure my Dad assumed that if it wasn't lost by one of his sons it would be the only nozzle he ever had to buy. He was right. As silly as it sounds that little nozzle has kind of become a poster child for me when analyzing what I think is wrong with our consumer economy.

[pinkytoe]

It is neat to see the quality of old things. We still use the carving knives my grandfather made by hand at least sixty years ago. I HATE that most things have been cheapened by mass consumption. If you want to get depressed, go to a Tuesday Morning store and see the rows and rows of stuff those shopping women have just got to have.

[Jemima]

I have been thinking the past few days about the state of the US economy and one take I have on it is this - too much of it is dependent on what I consider frivious spending.....Anyone else out there agree with this? And now that the boom is gone, there is not enough money left for most people to be very frivilous....How does one fix that? And if it could be fixed, would it even be desirable to fix it? I don't have the answers but the more I think of it, and lately I have had some time to actually think (a good thing), it seems to me that we need to find some new kind of economic model that is not so dependent on frivilous spending.....Any thoughts out there? Rob

I agree with you completely, except for the part about being in doubt about letting go of the frivolous economy. Enough, already. A lot of the people who have been out of work for a long time worked in jobs related to selling junk. I'm sorry for them, but I'm glad to see a lot of non-essential industries go under. I don't think those jobs will be back any time soon.

Here's post from The Resilient Family blog that addresses this issue:

http://www.theresilientfamily.com/2011/10/gewgaws-and-debt-pushers/

Some of the items that are listed are just insane, yet I can imagine people buying them. And meanwhile, there are many people in this country who don't have enough to eat....

[bae]

I HATE that most things have been cheapened by mass consumption.

I'm trying to buy a proper anvil for blacksmithing right now.

It is almost impossible to find a new anvil that is suitable. An anvil should be made of forged steel, or cast steel, and correctly tempered, and be made within reasonable dimensional tolerances. Most new ones seem to be cheezy cast iron, with a lame surface welded atop them with clearly incorrect tempering, and aren't remotely flat.

Old ones in decent shape are very scarce around here, and the few people still making reasonable new ones are charging insane amounts of money for them, because the demand for horrid anvil-shaped objects has destroyed their market.

[Stella]

I'm trying to buy a proper anvil for blacksmithing right now.



:) This is why I love these forums.

[frugal-one]

I went to a thrift store yesterday and commented to a woman "you sure are in shopping mode". Her response... "I am shopping because I am in pain." My retort was "That is not a good enough excuse." (WTH) Evidentally she got some type of endorphin rush by shopping?????