View Full Version : Young men afraid of committment?
I realize this is a complicated issue.
DD is in her mid 20's. She's a very social, bright, talented, interesting young lady. But she's having reoccurring problems with the guys she dates. Everything goes really well with them, as friends. Then they decide to get closer, and bam.........the guys freak out and run away. I feel really sorry for her. This has happened to her about 4 times in the past couple of years.
Have any of you noticed that the young men these days have a fear of committment?
I'm wondering if it has something to do with the internet. Seems like in these days of electronic communicating, its too easy to make a relationship into something its not. Then, when reality approaches (like visiting someone who lives farther away, after most of the interaction has been through the internet/skype/phone etc.) its too much for the guys.
I don't know. DD has considered that maybe its something she does wrong, but honestly can't figure it out.
I just wonder if alot of today's young adults have an inability to get close? Then again, I've seen other young kids stay in relationships for a long time.
DD is just really hurting, and I want to help her to not continue to maybe pick the wrong guys, or fall into some sort of scenario that leads her down the same path all the time.
She's very busy with 2 jobs, and is finishing up her second degree. I don't think she's overly dependent on anyone. She's a very interesting person and is very accepting of people. Can't figure this out, other than there's alot of mixed up young men out there!
Any insights?
bekkilyn
11-15-11, 11:05am
Not to be too cynical, but her problem is likely that she *is* very social, bright, talented, interesting, not overly dependent, and accepting of people. Mix it up with a whole heck of a lot of insecure young guys and there are sure to be problems. Rather than dumbing herself down and acting all girly girl for these guys though, she might consider herself lucky to avoid getting committed to a wussy guy just looking for a trophy or a mother, and is scared to death of a woman with a brain and a degree of self-sufficiency. Most of these type of guys are fine as friends and buddies, but are truly horrible relationship material.
iris lily
11-15-11, 11:05am
If your daughter is having long distance relationships, well, those are seldom "real." She needs to cut that out immediately and find some on-site men.
edited to add:
Here's why I say this:
with on-site men they have to actually commit a couple of hours, minimum, to a date
they have to plan ahead, at least a little, to meet with your daughter
they usually have to commit some money to a date--maybe only enough for coffee and gas, but it's something
I'm not saying that on-site men will commit, but she will have better ways to assess their true interest in her--if they get together with her multiple time using up resources listed above, they are interested. Doesn't mean they are ready to "commit" though. Mid-20's men in general may not be as mature as your daughter, it's true.
I have to say that a college campus is both a wonderful and an awful place to meet men. There are lots of them, but many (being students) are in a sort of suspended juvenile state, not-quite-adult but not-quite-dependant.
I think some young men are afraid of commitment and some aren't. When I was in my late teens and early 20s I dated a guy who wasn't really interested in committing. I wish I had admitted that to myself earlier, although everything worked out eventually. It takes a while, but your DD will start to see the signs of it earlier and avoid it.
Mid-twenties isn't really that old. IME in your mid-twenties there is a kind of separation that happens among friend groups. One group decides they aren't especially interested in growing up, whether it be in relationships, jobs or any other area of life, and one group decides it's time to make the shift. How exactly that pans out is different for each person, so it can be kind of a subtle shift, but it's real. I used to joke that my mid twenties was about the time the novelty of being able to drink and stay up late wore off. Not that I don't occassionally still do both :) but reality set in at a new level. That may be some of what's going on with your DD.
DH is 29 and we have been married 8 1/2 years. He loves being married and is passionate about his family. Most of my friends from high school (I'm 33) are married and about 60-70% of of DH's friends from high school are married, so those guys are out there.
I use the term "committment" sort of lightly. She's not looking for a husband. She just likes being with guys who she likes. One guy she was almost best friends with her for 2 years and they were with each other alot of the time. As soon as they both decided to turn the relationship into an SO relationship, it wasn't a month before he wanted out. Then there was another guy who would like her like crazy from a distance, but when they would spend much time together, he would start backing off. I'm open to it being a problem with her behaivor, but I'm not sure it is. She's a very "authentic" person, and I think her behavior is always consistent and direct. then again........I'm just her mother. Who knows what goes on, really.
She is slowly realizing that there's no need to pine over these guys, after they "break up" with her, since its just alot of unnecessary pain.
Stella.....you're right about the 20's. Seems like kids start calming down and being more realistic and mature as they get to their late 20's.
I keep telling her that its good she's seeing this in them early in the relationships and wouldn't want a long term relationship with that kind of
insecurity. These guys have some qualities that she absolutely loves and misses.........but I keep reminding her that how they treat her and the relationship is just as much them, as the good qualities. Its a package deal!
What really concerns me too, is that the guys can never say "I just don't think we are a good fit and I'm not comfortable in this relationship anymore.", etc. Instead, they make up excuses to not be together.......they're too busy, etc., instead of having the **lls to tell it like it is, instead of leading her on. Maybe that's common with alot of folks. Even jerks might not want to hurt anyone. But in the long run, it hurts people more to be honest with them as soon as possible.
Anyhow........when she hurts, I hurt too.
jennipurrr
11-15-11, 11:37am
I agree with Iris Lilly...the long distance thing gives much more time to be wishy washy and drag on a sort of semi relationship. If its real life dating then she'll know pretty soon whether the relationship is heading where she wants it to.
I wonder if she's just had a string of bad luck, or if there is something else drawing her to these types of men? Something to think about anyway.
My husband is a bit older than I am (seven years) and if I had met him when he was 21 rather than when I was 21 (in an imaginary world where we were the same age), I would have never given him a second thought as far as a relationship...he did a lot of growing up in that time frame. At that time in his life he was not in any way ready for a committed relationship. I wouldn't say looking for older guys is an answer, but I just from observation something appears to happen to people when they start nearing 30...most of the people I graduated from high school with are getting married now and we're all turning 30.
A mid-20's, busy woman like your daughter who even had time for 4 relationships in the past couple of years sounds like she's doing OK. It can take a while to find a man that fits. What you have described doesn't sound any different to me than what it was like when I was in my 20's and that was 30 years ago.
Part of it is age I think. DH and I met when we were both 30 and got married less than 2 years after that. If we had met sooner I don't know if we'd still be together. I changed A LOT from 20 to 30. I'm sure he did, too.
Another thing I'd recommend, though some would disagree, is to not try to turn friends into a relationship. Of course you want to be friends with your boyfriend or husband, but if you spend months to years just being friends, before it turns into a relationship, then there's a reason it didn't become a relationship sooner. I think both people should want a relationship pretty quickly if it's going to work out. After 3 dates with DH where there was no physical stuff as we were outdoors in -40C or at a restaurant all 3 times, I invited myself to his place and very clearly indicated that I didn't just want to just be friends and didn't just want sex - wanted the whole package. I had known him for a few months prior to that through an activity so I wasn't going in completely blind.
Also avoid the internet stuff as much as possible. Fine for keeping in touch but not for dating. Need to have person to person time as much as possible to get a sense if there is real relationship potential.
Something else I learned in my 20s is to switch my mind set from: Does he want to be with me? to: Do I want to be with him? She doesn't need to worry about what he wants or does. She has every right to be the one doing the breaking-up. She should be asking herself whether that guy is what she wants, and is good enough for her (trying to avoid superficial things of course). Took me a long time to clue into that one.
Perhaps some of the problem is being friends first. If she's meeting guys that just want to hang out and keep things casual (especially for 2 years), then maybe that is all that guy has to offer. My DH is my best friend now, but his interest in me initially was definitely not to be "friends". DH is quiet and shy and went way outside his comfort zone to let me know that he wanted to date me. My last serious relationship pre-DH could have been ripped from the pages of the book, "He's Just Not That Into You," (even though it lasted almost 5 years). DH, on the other hand, was the epitome of "He's Into You."
DD is really perceptive. Sounds like several times, she was totally blindsighted by the guy wanting out. I think that's because maybe its awfully hard to hurt someone who is being really decent to you, even if you don't want a serious relationship with them.
DD is a really intense person, so maybe that scares the guys. I think she's slowly learning though, and hopefully learns to quickly "weed out" the ones who have certain red flags. Then again, maybe she won't!
Only a couple of the guys were people she met at her school, and then they graduated and moved. She was willing to have the long distance relationship, but the guys weren't as much. She doesn't understand this. But maybe the guys in this case were being much more realistic.
Hopefully she'll learn a few things and not spend so much time feeling bad. I guess its all part of growing up, unfortunately!
What Iris said, and, not to be too blunt, you say she is an 'intense' person and an 'authentic' person, whatever that means. It could very well be something she is doing or saying, without even realizing it. You aren't the one to point this out to her because, one, you are her mom and won't see what it is, and 2, well, you are her mom.:~) Does she have a really good trusted friend who will be frank with her? I'm not saying she is a horrible person or anything like that, but maybe she is doing something that scares them off. A good honest heart to heart with a friend might help, especially if she can listen without getting upset or blaming the messenger. It might really just be a matter of small alterations in her mannerisms, or directness, or something like that. We all learn to adjust our personalities or habits to fit in to whatever group or society we want to fit in to. It's just a part of growing up.
Just an example, not saying it applies to your daughter: We all know the person who grates on peoples nerves and excuses it by saying "Well, I believe in being honest and saying what I think" and all I can think is 'and what you think is rude, obnoxious and makes people not want to be around you.' OK, that example is not your daughter, just something that really bugs me. !Splat!
loosechickens
11-15-11, 4:06pm
"intense person" and "relationship moving from friendship into something more" may be connected. You're her mom, so you're not in her bedroom, intimate life, etc. Since these guys almost appear to be "escaping", it certainly COULD be that they are just committment adverse at that time of life, but it could also be that the relationship moving from friendship to a more intimate relationship may trigger behaviors in your daughter of expectations from the change that just panics the guys.
either way, mid twenties is a time when many, many both male and female, engage in relationships, but shy away from the long term idea of committment, marriage, etc. Back in the day when that ring was sometimes the only way to move into an intimate relationship, young men may have been more able to overcome their reluctance, for the "rewards", but these days when sex is easily available in relationships without offerings of committment, it's almost to be expected that far more would be reluctant to committ.
Maybe she just needs to relax, recognize that moving from friendship into boyfriend/girlfriend doesn't necessarily mean that "this is the ONE", or that it will end up being long term. More relaxation, more just enjoyment of the relationship without expectations of where it is supposed to lead, or how it is supposed to be may help. But, no matter what the root cause is, eventually the "right one" will come along and all will be well.
(apologies if committment is spelled incorrectly...it doesn't look correct, but I am feeling terminally lazy today insofar as looking it up......somehow it looks a bit heavy on "t's". ;-)
Simpler at Fifty
11-15-11, 4:10pm
I wonder if she gets needy once she is in the relationship. That is hard to admit to yourself and turns a lot of guys off. I am sure my Mom would not have admitted that about me, her bright, articulate daughter who chose the wrong guy for several years....
I really don't like that phrase afraid of commitment. Thinking back to when I was younger I was accused of being afraid of commitment by a woman I was dating. I wasn't afraid of commitment, I just didn't want it. A few years later (same girlfriend) I did want it.
Worked out fine (we got the kids and grandkids to prove it) but I'm certain that it would not have worked out if I committed before I wanted (and was ready) to be committed (no pun intended). Definitely wasn't afraid. Just didn't want it.
I don't think the fears of or lack of interest towards commitment rests solely on the male gender. It's a changing world and people (unlike generations of past) aren't as open to or accepting of tying themselves down with/to any one person for any length of time like people used to. Traditional relationships, as many of us know them as, aren't what they used to be.
Take my oldest daughter for instance (19). She's not at all interested in "hooking up" with anyone, and from most everything she's seeing out there nowadays, that's all that it's really about, so she's chosen the wise path and is pursuing a career (first), then, as she says, "if someone right comes along, I'll invest a little time and possibly pursue it, but until such a time, most of the boys (men) I know need to grow up".
So in retrospect to your daughters woes, CathyA, it may not even be your daughter at all (per se), so much as it is the society we live in nowadays and the perception that everyone is open to free love, unrestricted sexual expression, and non-committal. Best advice I have for your daughter, for her to take her time and select very wisely. Be very, very choosy.
or if there is something else drawing her to these types of men
My dd is 28 now and on bf #4. I think this one may stick. IN her case, as a psych and social work major, she really was drawn to guys who needed more than a little guidance. I think she has finally learned to seek out an equal. That and just gaining some maturity has helped. I wouldn't be too concerned. It's all part of growing up and figuring it all out. What is really interesting to me is that serious my dd's bf #4 comes from a stable (no divorce) family; all the others have come from broken homes.
catherine
11-15-11, 9:33pm
I think kids these days are just waiting a lot longer than we did. I have four kids, all VERY sociable, from ages 26-33 and none of them are married! We keep teasing them about it, telling them we can't wait forever for grandchildren, but they're just moving along at their own pace. Last year all of my sons broke up with their girlfriends--I don't know what was in the water.
Now, DS33 I think is on lock-down with a girl, and DD26 has been dating the same sweet guy for three years, so maybe we'll start seeing some action, but I really just think things aren't what they used to be. When I was DS's age, I had already had my fourth kid.
Originally posted by Catherine.
When I was DS's age, I had already had my fourth kid. So true, and wasn't that the way a generation ago, however kids today are more educated and savvy in relation to what awaits them and lies ahead, not to mention, society is steadily failing at setting a good example which is aiding in the retardation of typical old-fashioned/traditional ways.
how often does she talk to the guy? is it every day?
honestly, i get really turned off when people are so needy and want to talk every single day. sometimes it is best to let time pass.
read "men are from venus, women are from mars"
let the guys chase her. i know i know, you are not supposed to wait by the phone, but honestly, go out and do something alone, and wait for him to call.
many times once i don't talk to someone in a week, they freak out and start calling me ever hour. if i dont' talk to you in a week, give me a month. and, i'll probably be calling in just 2 weeks.
When I was DS's age, I had already had my fourth kid.
Hey, me too! That was seven months ago. :)
I do think people are waiting a bit longer too. Although most of my peers from my high school are married and have children. St Anthony is the hometown of stability, though.
Aqua Blue
11-16-11, 12:00am
I think there is a lot less stigma about being unattached now. Both of my nieces in their mid 20s have lots friends but (to my knowledge, lol) are not attached to one person. When I was their age that was pretty much unthinkable.
iris lily
11-16-11, 12:54am
I really don't like that phrase afraid of commitment. Thinking back to when I was younger I was accused of being afraid of commitment by a woman I was dating. I wasn't afraid of commitment, I just didn't want it. ...
Thanks for this male perspective, so true. There is nothing wrong with not wanting commitment.
Packratona!
11-16-11, 2:34am
The Real Reasons Men won't commit, The Rules for Dating, He's Just not that into You, and other dating advice books would be really helpful. I highly recommend!
"'Be very, very choosy"is something I agree is probably the most important way to choose a spouse to live with.
DD isn't interested in marriage. She just wants consistency. Her problem is with men who act/say that they really like her and want to be with her, and they spend lots of time together and seem to both really enjoy it, and then in an instant, they totally reverse and they are gone.
Since she's in school in another state, I can't see exactly what's going on, but DD is quite busy with completing her degree, has lots of friends and interests. So I don't think its a matter of her appearing too needy to them.
I do wonder, though, if she picks guys who have some sort of personality that tends to lead them to this particular behavior.
Thanks for this male perspective, so true. There is nothing wrong with not wanting commitment.
I totally agree in the case of men who are upfront about that. It's the ones that lead women to believe they want to commit that earn the "afraid to commit" label from me. I've had friends who's boyfriends have kept them on the line for years by occasionally talking about marriage as though they are interested and then coming up with reasons to delay proposing for years. He wants to wait until he's bought a house, then until he can buy the right ring, etc. I had a friend who's BF told her he wanted to be the last in their friend group to get married because "people only remember the first wedding in the group and the last." Then once they've proposed that has bought them another year or two.
Of course it shouldn't take women years to get wise to that. I think it's great when both parties can state upfront what they are looking for. One of my closest friends just dated a man who told her from the outset that he had just gotten out of a bad 5 year relationship and he wasn't interested in a serious relationship. He was very respectful about not leading her on. They went to dinner a few times and to the zoo once and they kissed once. She wasn't devastated when he said he realized he really needed to pull back and do some healing before dating. He had been honest about it and to my knowledge they are still friends. That's a man who just doesn't want a commitment, not one who's afraid of it.
It may be that some of these young men and Cathy's DD just don't click in a relationship. Friendship isn't always the best indicator of romantic compatibility. My exBF who I described as commitment phobic (he did the stringing along thing) is now happily married and I am very happy for him. We got together because we have a lot of shared interests and he was spontaneous and fun. There were huge gulfs in values, though. He was much more materialistic than me (I don't say that as a slam, he'd probably agree), he didn't want kids and I obviously did. There were other things. We probably would still be friends if that's all it had ever been because those kinds of differences aren't that big a deal in friendships. Breaking up was good. We both found the right person to be with. My DH and I also have a lot of interests in common, he's spontaneous and fun AND he and I are compatible financially, have similar views on marriage and similar desires for our family.
She'll find the right person. Obviously these guys weren't it.
Perhaps some of the problem is being friends first. If she's meeting guys that just want to hang out and keep things casual (especially for 2 years), then maybe that is all that guy has to offer.
This is true - especially if she is holding off on dating other men while she's "hanging" for 2 years with a friend. You can have lots of platonic male (and female) friends but it doesn't mean you should stop dating and seeking a romantic partner if that's what you are looking for - you can do both at the same time. So maybe it's just as simple as Cathy A's DD not dating enough. She needs to meet as many new guys as she can to find the "right" one who wants the same things as she does. If she's spending all her free time with male friends (and maybe hoping that it leads to something more then friendship) she won't have enough time to meet potential romanic partners. It also helps alot to be upfront right away with what she wants - i.e. "I'm looking to have a commited romantic relationship and not just a friendship or caual dating thing". That way she doesn't spend alot of time mooning over a guy who doesn't want a commitment or a guy who just wants to be friends. As a VERY commitment-phobic woman myself, I am upfront right away with guys I meet that I am NOT looking for a long term commited relationship (unless they are willing to live "my" lifestyle - that'd be nice - as I'm unwilling to compromise at this time). It makes things clear in the beginning and I don't feel like I'm stringing someone along when I have no intention of marriage or even a long term relationship.
ApatheticNoMore
11-16-11, 5:12pm
I don't blame them. Committment is scary! :)
I really don't like that phrase afraid of commitment. Thinking back to when I was younger I was accused of being afraid of commitment by a woman I was dating. I wasn't afraid of commitment, I just didn't want it. A few years later (same girlfriend) I did want it.
Worked out fine (we got the kids and grandkids to prove it) but I'm certain that it would not have worked out if I committed before I wanted (and was ready) to be committed (no pun intended). Definitely wasn't afraid. Just didn't want it.
True - I'm not really "afraid or phobic" about a committment, just don't want one. I am just wanting to be free to be myself and not have to take another person - or their needs - into consideration right now. I think that especially true for anyone in their 20's. They might want a relationship, they just don't want one that is going to encompass or change their entire life. I guess I'm more "compromise" phobic than committment phobic.
DD isn't interested in marriage. She just wants consistency. Her problem is with men who act/say that they really like her and want to be with her, and they spend lots of time together and seem to both really enjoy it, and then in an instant, they totally reverse and they are gone.
Since she's in school in another state, I can't see exactly what's going on, but DD is quite busy with completing her degree, has lots of friends and interests. So I don't think its a matter of her appearing too needy to them.
I do wonder, though, if she picks guys who have some sort of personality that tends to lead them to this particular behavior.
Yes but this is all normal dating. How many men have you (or anyone here) dated before finding a person you want to spend more time with - to have a relationship with? Geeze, I can't count that high myself :-)!! It seems to me that people assume that if you like a person in the beginning, if you are attracted to them physically and mentally, then BOTH of you will feel that way a month or 2 down the road. That isn't always the case. It takes that long to get past the first intial "infatuation" and get down to the nitty gritty of finding out how compatable you really are. That's when all those little (and big) difference start to show up - AFTER you've been together awhile. So it's only natural that your DD or a guy she is dating may take that long to realize that they don't want anything long term together. It's a natural "breaking up" point in many dating relationships. Your DD's pattern seems very normal to me and nothing she should worry about. My only suggestion is that she take it slow (i.e. wait before getting physically intimate with someone) until they get to know one another better and decide if this is someone that they actually DO click with.
mtnlaurel
11-16-11, 6:01pm
I've been in a relationship, now marriage, for about 17 yrs and my dating skillz are beyond rusty to say the least! But I have a single friend that wanted to talk about getting back 'out on the market' after being single for a long while -- so I read Patti Stanger's "Become your own Matchmaker" so I could maybe be of some use to her. Don't worry I didn't pay hard earned money on it, the library had it. I have a vice of occasional trash TV binges and Patti's crass, straight forwardness totally cracks me up. The show is total junk, but the book was surprisingly pretty good.
It's not about how to change yourself for guys, but more
-how to make the most of what you have going for you
-get out there live your own life doing things you love for you
- increase instances for you to meet potential suitors
-how to 'qualify' your potential suitors
-and how to move on if they are not wanting what you want or go the direction you see yourself going, no hard feelings
I didn't marry until I was 40. I was, at one time in my life, accused loudly & nastily by a then-boyfriend of being "afraid of commitment." Being a little tipsy (and a little fed up) at the time, I responded that I was in no way afraid of commitment. I just didn't want to be committed to HIM.
Sounds mean, but the guy was completely inappropriate for me, and I hadn't seen it until that moment. He got over it.
Let her learn. Be there to support her, and remind her that the universe is probably doing her a favor by steering the Wrong Guys away from her. But don't worry about it too much (hard when you're a mom, I know :) )
JaneV2.0
11-16-11, 11:45pm
That whole "afraid of commitment" thing always rang false to me, too. As someone pointed out, who wouldn't (or shouldn't) be wary of signing up for what is supposed to be a life sentence of often grim responsibility. I didn't commit to marriage, but I committed to a corporate career and stuck it out to the bitter end, proving that I am fearless in the face of joyless toil. I agree that DD will make her own way and likely find a kindred spirit who likes her just the way she is--without needing to play games or market herself as a "brand."
gimmethesimplelife
11-17-11, 1:55am
You know, I think part of it for guys may be that the economy is so horrible right now. With their economic prospects not looking very bright and the future looking uncertain (a very nice way of putting it IMHO), a lot of men are just not going to seek to commit. Of course there are many other factors involved and perhaps even more relevant, but I just wanted to bring this up as a possibility. Rob in the city
I agree that DD will make her own way and likely find a kindred spirit who likes her just the way she is--without needing to play games or market herself as a "brand."
Ditto!! I'm one who really hates those self help relationship books aimed at women on how to snare a man. It's not that the advice is bad, it's just not natural. It's full of playing games and acting in a false way from a person's natural personality. I mean, why would a woman want to be anything but her true self when looking for a long term commitment? Why should she shield her true self with games and role playing from the very person she is hoping will want her FOR herself - not some imaginary being? If Cathy A's DD is a strong, independant, and intense person then that's who she needs to be with anyone she's dating. She's going to want to attract a man that values THOSE things about her, not some false or make believe persona. I mean, I can "act" all girly and helpless but it's not going to attract the kind of man I would want in my life (and I wouldn't end up being the kind of woman he would want in his life either once my "true self" came out). So why do it? Why play games? If I like you, I'll let you know. I'll call you when I damn well feel like it rather then play some crazy game to make you more intrigued with me. And if you don't like it, well, then you aren't the guy for me. If I want to see you, I'll tell you that. If I don't like things you do or don't want to see you any more, I'll tell you that too. So cathy A, tell your DD to just be herself, do and act in a way that SHE wants, not in a way some book tells her to behave. She doesn't need to define herself by anyone elses standards other than her own.
Thanks everyone. DD is really upset. She finally got to talk to the guy last night and he was like a robot, with no emotion. Up until this past weekend, they had talked for a long time every day for months, and he was really excited about her coming to see him (in another state). Its sort of like the Bodysnatchers. She's having real trouble with people acting one way for a long time, and then acting like a totally different person in a matter of minutes. I agree with you all that life is/was like this for many of us in our 20's. Like I've said, of course the breaking up part bothers her, but its the complete 180 degree shift overnight in the other person's behavior that has her reeling.
She keeps saying that he lied to her all those months. And I keep telling her that peoples' psyche's are all different. Some people can be free and open from a distance, but get too close, and they shut down immediately and totally. I don't think this guy was leading her on. I just think that when it started to look like they were going to actually get together, he couldn't handle it. Our minds protect us from scary things.........even if they aren't really that scary. And for some, that protection translates into total withdrawal.
I think the internet/skype, and even old fasioned telephones can give those of us who are insecure with up-close-and-personal relationships a false sense of things. I don't think he led her along, I just think he was enjoying a relationship at a distance, and once it appeared as tho it was going to become more than a virtual relationship, he freaked out and shut down.
No, its not fair to DD. But unfortunately, some people get scared. I told her to just keep being the honest, wonderful person that she is. I don't think she got much comfort from that, but...........such is life.
yes, that is true.
i have to agree with the previous poster who suggested that she step away from long distance relationships. I'll be honest, any long distance relationship that I have seen implodes at some point. Basically, it collapses. When on the internet, things can be considered, other things can be hidden (even unconsciously), and you are -- often -- on your "best" behavior (or your worst, depending!). When the relationship jumps from the internet to meeting in person, you are "on" when you are together, and more yourself in between (this is true of both parties, no matter how honest and earnest they are individually). If it continues, this is the region where a lot of hurt comes in. One person moves to be with the other, or both move to a new town in between, and then -- being together all the time -- they realize that they aren't that much alike, and so the move was a bad move, and either one or both persons move back to their original home and ahve to start over and stuff. Or, they have to forge it alone in a new city.
My sister did several of these, and one of our best friends went so far as to get married to a L-D girlfriend. My sister always broke up after the move; and our friends ultimately ended in divorce.
I absolutely believe that you need to be together -- day to day -- during dating and the early phases of the relationship because 70-80% of our communication comes from body language. There's also the sense of "energy" around the person (how we pick up on people's emotions when we walk in the room, before we see them), and things like how pheromones work for us.
I would suggest that anyone she dates in the future, not be former friends (there's a reason why it didn't kick into dating in the beginning, and that's usually pheromones) and they not be long distance.
She can use a site like Plenty of Fish (a lot of my friends who have successful relationships met through this site -- if the person lived near to them), and find local guys who have common interests.
sending you a private message..............
I think so, many "not all" of course young men are just not feeling commitment anymore. I have two 20 something sons and all their friends I know. I can not think of one of all the guys that are married or even have thoughts along that line. I watch all of them stay long enough with someone till an issue comes up , then no bother trying. My son told me the other day, Why would anyone get married in today's world. I do not have the answer on what happened.
When I see a new girl with any of the friends I want to say to the girl, demand more for them, but maybe they are the same way?
Young men have been fickle and commitment-averse since recorded history. This particular variant sounds like a thing that happens with long distance relationships. At a remove, it's fairly easy to present an ideal (or flat-out false) persona, if you want. Maybe without realizing you're doing it, and definitely without realizing you're going to hurt a real person when the illusion falls apart. A lot. FWIW, I was in a similar situation. Objectively, yeah, there was probably little-to-no ill intent in the deception. In the real world, I found it helpful to think of the person as a vicious liar until I got over wanting to reopen communications. Your daughter's framing of the situation sounds perfectly reasonable to me. At this point, she needs to protect herself from him.
Packratona!
11-18-11, 1:54am
The main thing I learned from reading some the books I mentioned is, to let the guy make the moves. Because if he is not the one exerting himself in the relationship (the one doing the calling, visiting, asking out, etc.) then he's just not that into you, and you DON'T want to waste your time on someone like that, you don't want to be seriously involved or married to someone like that. You want someone who is serious enough, who likes you enough from the beginning to make the effort. There are all kinds of things you can do to tell from the beginning to tell if he is promising material. Like NOT call him, NOT e-mail him. Let HIM to do the calling, the e-mailing, the visiting, the inviting, the gifting, the asking out. Because that is the way to tell if he is seriously interested.
Wildflower
11-18-11, 4:38am
You know, I think part of it for guys may be that the economy is so horrible right now. With their economic prospects not looking very bright and the future looking uncertain (a very nice way of putting it IMHO), a lot of men are just not going to seek to commit. Of course there are many other factors involved and perhaps even more relevant, but I just wanted to bring this up as a possibility. Rob in the city
Seems to me combining incomes with someone you love makes for a better economic situation! An all around win-win situation. :)
Wildflower
11-18-11, 4:43am
Ditto!! I'm one who really hates those self help relationship books aimed at women on how to snare a man. It's not that the advice is bad, it's just not natural. It's full of playing games and acting in a false way from a person's natural personality. I mean, why would a woman want to be anything but her true self when looking for a long term commitment? Why should she shield her true self with games and role playing from the very person she is hoping will want her FOR herself - not some imaginary being? If Cathy A's DD is a strong, independant, and intense person then that's who she needs to be with anyone she's dating. She's going to want to attract a man that values THOSE things about her, not some false or make believe persona. I mean, I can "act" all girly and helpless but it's not going to attract the kind of man I would want in my life (and I wouldn't end up being the kind of woman he would want in his life either once my "true self" came out). So why do it? Why play games? If I like you, I'll let you know. I'll call you when I damn well feel like it rather then play some crazy game to make you more intrigued with me. And if you don't like it, well, then you aren't the guy for me. If I want to see you, I'll tell you that. If I don't like things you do or don't want to see you any more, I'll tell you that too. So cathy A, tell your DD to just be herself, do and act in a way that SHE wants, not in a way some book tells her to behave. She doesn't need to define herself by anyone elses standards other than her own.
Exactly!
I agree! DD is not into playing games at all. She got to talk to him yesterday and he was crazy........calling her names, telling her to grow up, etc. She was really hurt. No one has ever been this mean to her before. She didn't deserve this at all. I say she's lucky this happened now. He obviously has some mental problems.
DD has a good heart, and she can't understand how people can be so inconsistent and mean. I have trouble understanding that too. Of course, I'm open to the fact that maybe she behaves in a way that attracts these kinds of people, but I honestly don't think so. I think there's just alot of unstable/insensitive young men out there.
When my DS was growing up, I tried very hard to teach him to be in touch with his feelings. Like instead of just being angry, try to understand what emotions are underneath that anger.......fear? disappointment?, etc. Through his life, I've seen over and over that many young men weren't allowed to feel their feelings as children. I think this leads to young men who have no idea what they're feeling, or why, or what to do with it. It leads to men who learn to just shut down when emotional things arise. It leads to so many unnecessary problems.
I think DD is seeing this alot in her various relationships with men. Men just have never been allowed to feel, or put their feelings into words.
I sure hope she eventually finds a few men who have been raised to feel and be open, and not shut down and run away from any kind of problems.
Sorry to hear that CathyA...I have been through that before myself. I find that guys my age are not on the same level as me. I am dating an older man now and it is working like a charm. Your daughter sounds like a wonderful woman and I know she will find someone who will treat her with respect and kindness.
I did read some of those self-help relationship books aimed at women, and I have to say that their general gist was extremely helpful... especially in terms of not focusing all my attention on potential partners, keeping my own life, not trying to conform to a man's 'ideal', etc. I was very guilty of those things before as a teenager and it did not contribute to pleasant experiences!
I'm not sure there's much I can add to the 'commitment' topic, as it seems all areas have been covered. However, it's very difficult to speak in generalities since there is so much variation in men's preferences, goals, outlooks, etc. Personally, most of the men I know who are my age (late 20s) are happy in long-term relationships or looking for long-term relationships. A minority of them are content for the time being to sleep around and aren't interested in commitment at all. They tend to face a lot of stigma, but hey, they are old enough to decide for themselves and as long as they're not deceiving or hurting anyone in the process, what's the problem? It only becomes a problem to me when they talk about their conquests non-stop... in that respect, it seems like some underlying issue with self-esteem and overinflated ego...
There was a panel discussion on our public TV channel that showed statistics indicating that both men and women are busy with other parts of their life and getting married about 8-10 years later than their parents' generation.
The younger panelists spoke of simply being friends and seeking/fnding numerous opportunities to find compatible personalities to have fun with and allowing themselves to grow up.
It seems to be a generational thing.
Packratona!
11-20-11, 5:07pm
Then there is this other point of view, expressed to me by my quite mature 18 year old daughter: marry young (18-21) like many of our parents's generation did, and grow together as a couple. Less divorces back then too.
I don't think that the modern way of marrying in your late twenties or later is normal or natural or a good thing.
"I don't think that the modern way of marrying in your late twenties or later is normal or natural or a good thing. "
Sometimes, words fail me.
well, it is tough on the fertility, that's for sure.
I married at 35 and had children at 37 and 39. It was all pretty "natural" and "good" for me!
Then there is this other point of view, expressed to me by my quite mature 18 year old daughter: marry young (18-21) like many of our parents's generation did, and grow together as a couple. Less divorces back then too.
I don't think that the modern way of marrying in your late twenties or later is normal or natural or a good thing.
Yes but a long marriage doesn't always mean a good marriage. Before divorce was common many men - and probably alot more women due to lack of financial opportunities - suffered thru years and years in loveless, often abusive, marriages. My personal feeling is that for most people, it takes them until their late 20's or early thirty's until they "know thyselves". Until then they are often trying out many new things in terms of their lifestyles, their career's, and even the things they may want in their furtures (kids, a house in the burbs, etc..). It takes time for them to form into the mature adults that know what they want in life and can be their true selves with a potential spouse. Of course I got married young ish (24) so what do I know :-)! Of course if I had to do it all again I would have waited until MUCH MUCH latter in life to get married.
I did read some of those self-help relationship books aimed at women, and I have to say that their general gist was extremely helpful... especially in terms of not focusing all my attention on potential partners, keeping my own life, not trying to conform to a man's 'ideal', etc.
I think that the things those books say ARE important but they put it in a way that says "Act" like you are an interesting and intrigueing woman who has a full and meaningful life of her own by playing certain games to keep a man interested in her. What I say is to "Be" an interesting and intrigueing woman who HAS a full and meaningful life of her own and find a man that WILL be interested in her because of the things she does and the person she is, not because she "plays at" being unattainable. Instead of playing the games, try instead to do the things you enjoy in life and try sharing those things with the man you are interested in. And if a guy isn't interested, or plays games himself, then move on. One of the guys here (I think it was "hey Dude") posted something like - if I don't call you in a week, wait and I'll call you within a month. But if that was someone I was dating I'd have long since moved on and he wouldn't even be a blip on my radar screen anymore. I want a man who wants me - not because I'm some sort of aloof prey he feels the need to hunt down and conquer, but because we are equals who find each other interesting and we want to share those things together. So my peeve with the books isn't so much "what" they say but "how" they tell women to act.
I've never acted like anyone but myself, so the books that tell women how to act just were never for me. I was never very good at games.......which I think was/is a good thing.
I use the term "committment" sort of lightly. She's not looking for a husband. She just likes being with guys who she likes. One guy she was almost best friends with her for 2 years and they were with each other alot of the time. As soon as they both decided to turn the relationship into an SO relationship, it wasn't a month before he wanted out. Then there was another guy who would like her like crazy from a distance, but when they would spend much time together, he would start backing off. I'm open to it being a problem with her behaivor, but I'm not sure it is. She's a very "authentic" person, and I think her behavior is always consistent and direct. then again........I'm just her mother. Who knows what goes on, really.
She is slowly realizing that there's no need to pine over these guys, after they "break up" with her, since its just alot of unnecessary pain.
Stella.....you're right about the 20's. Seems like kids start calming down and being more realistic and mature as they get to their late 20's.
I keep telling her that its good she's seeing this in them early in the relationships and wouldn't want a long term relationship with that kind of
insecurity. These guys have some qualities that she absolutely loves and misses.........but I keep reminding her that how they treat her and the relationship is just as much them, as the good qualities. Its a package deal!
What really concerns me too, is that the guys can never say "I just don't think we are a good fit and I'm not comfortable in this relationship anymore.", etc. Instead, they make up excuses to not be together.......they're too busy, etc., instead of having the **lls to tell it like it is, instead of leading her on. Maybe that's common with alot of folks. Even jerks might not want to hurt anyone. But in the long run, it hurts people more to be honest with them as soon as possible.
Anyhow........when she hurts, I hurt too.
Boy, does that resemble one of my college boyfriends. And he did it to a string of women too. And then, senior year (we dated freshman year), he made a pass again. I gave him a look that said "really? you think you have a shot?" Then 2.5 years after graduation we met at a wedding, and he got all possessive again (I was there with my boyfriend and now husband of 15 years).
The fact is, when she recognizes these traits, she needs to move on, and pronto. Normal guys are out there. They just are the minority at that age.
I was the same, CathyA. I felt it imperative that any potential partner would "take it or leave it." I absolutely HAD to be myself, and I had to be valued/honored for being myself. AND, I wanted to value/honor the person with whom I would partner for being themselves, and that we would be choosing to move through life together.
I happened to find that person when I was 20. I'm 35 now. It's working out. We waited a long time (12 yrs) to have a baby, though. :)
I really feel for your daughter. I was in the same place at her age with guys - OMG, it was awful. But my mother had her own issues, and she was never there to confide in or unburden myself to. Your daughter is so very lucky to have you! :)
Everything Spartana said!
I think that the things those books say ARE important but they put it in a way that says "Act" like you are an interesting and intrigueing woman who has a full and meaningful life of her own by playing certain games to keep a man interested in her. What I say is to "Be" an interesting and intrigueing woman who HAS a full and meaningful life of her own and find a man that WILL be interested in her because of the things she does and the person she is, not because she "plays at" being unattainable. Instead of playing the games, try instead to do the things you enjoy in life and try sharing those things with the man you are interested in. And if a guy isn't interested, or plays games himself, then move on. One of the guys here (I think it was "hey Dude") posted something like - if I don't call you in a week, wait and I'll call you within a month. But if that was someone I was dating I'd have long since moved on and he wouldn't even be a blip on my radar screen anymore. I want a man who wants me - not because I'm some sort of aloof prey he feels the need to hunt down and conquer, but because we are equals who find each other interesting and we want to share those things together. So my peeve with the books isn't so much "what" they say but "how" they tell women to act.
CathyA, good for your for stopping yourself before going down the path of blaming your daughter for attracting creeps. My parents did this to me from day one. They savaged my self-esteem and my sexual and social confidence with a constant rain of comments like this. I felt like I wasn't safe to go outside. My parents had some severe emotional problems that they never recognized or got help with, and you're not at ALL in this category. I'm just relating what happened to me.
Yes - it's counterproductive to try to make your daughter over into someone who can attract guys. It's not her. Most people suck. Of the group of guys that would be dateable for her, only something like, I don't know, five percent would even be worth looking at. And this is true for everyone.
It's not her. Your daughter is a lovely, talented, capable and strong girl, and she has a beautiful soul. Some guy will figure this out. I'm not saying it'll happen tomorrow, but it will happen! :)
Oh, and she's got a terrific mom too! ;)
I agree! DD is not into playing games at all. She got to talk to him yesterday and he was crazy........calling her names, telling her to grow up, etc. She was really hurt. No one has ever been this mean to her before. She didn't deserve this at all. I say she's lucky this happened now. He obviously has some mental problems.
DD has a good heart, and she can't understand how people can be so inconsistent and mean. I have trouble understanding that too. Of course, I'm open to the fact that maybe she behaves in a way that attracts these kinds of people, but I honestly don't think so. I think there's just alot of unstable/insensitive young men out there.
When my DS was growing up, I tried very hard to teach him to be in touch with his feelings. Like instead of just being angry, try to understand what emotions are underneath that anger.......fear? disappointment?, etc. Through his life, I've seen over and over that many young men weren't allowed to feel their feelings as children. I think this leads to young men who have no idea what they're feeling, or why, or what to do with it. It leads to men who learn to just shut down when emotional things arise. It leads to so many unnecessary problems.
I think DD is seeing this alot in her various relationships with men. Men just have never been allowed to feel, or put their feelings into words.
I sure hope she eventually finds a few men who have been raised to feel and be open, and not shut down and run away from any kind of problems.
Thanks everyone,
Great discussion here! I appreciate all the input!
CathyA, good for your for stopping yourself before going down the path of blaming your daughter for attracting creeps. My parents did this to me from day one. They savaged my self-esteem and my sexual and social confidence with a constant rain of comments like this. I felt like I wasn't safe to go outside. My parents had some severe emotional problems that they never recognized or got help with, and you're not at ALL in this category. I'm just relating what happened to me.
Yes - it's counterproductive to try to make your daughter over into someone who can attract guys. It's not her. Most people suck. Of the group of guys that would be dateable for her, only something like, I don't know, five percent would even be worth looking at. And this is true for everyone.
It's not her. Your daughter is a lovely, talented, capable and strong girl, and she has a beautiful soul. Some guy will figure this out. I'm not saying it'll happen tomorrow, but it will happen! :)
Oh, and she's got a terrific mom too! ;)
Agreed! It seems that women are constantly bombarded with books, magazines, TV shows, friends and family and even thier own parents (usually their own parents) telling them what they should and shouldn't do, how they should or shouldn't act, how they should look, what job and hobies they should have, etc... etc.. on and on just to "get" a man. No wonder women are so confused - especially when it doesn't seem that advice works or is so demoralizing that women run and hide in caves to keep from interacting with men. So instead of trying to make someone over into some poster girl of "Ms. Right", just lovingly tell her she's perfect and to be herself and she'll meet someone (hopefully locally) that she clicks with. All my life my Mom endlessly told me I had to change the way I was - the way I dressed, the way I talked, the hobbies I had, the work I did, etc.. - or I'd never attract a man. Boy was she wrong! Not only did I meet a great guy who not only accepted me for myself, but actually liked and admired me because I was the way I was. And there have been other men who have felt the same in my life. So CathyA encourage your DD to be herself and put herself in places where she wants to be, and she'll meet someone who admires her for who she is even if it's not what the books and magazines tell her is who she "should" be.
1tolivesimply
12-4-11, 11:12pm
DD is a really intense person, so maybe that scares the guys.
That may be the case, especially if she gets too intense too soon after they start dating -Not a problem if the guy is really interested-
It's not a men thing though, I'm a 29 and have been having a hard time finding women who want to commit...
I've always been a little curious about people who think its better to get married early, or people who think its better to wait. Isn't it better to settle down with the right person and not be so concerned with timing? Let's face it, relationships are HARD. The right person at the wrong time is the wrong person. There just isn't a good way that I know of to make the stars align.
CathyA, my wife is steel willed, intelligent, passionate and all around a very strong person. If we had met when I was 21 she (rightfully) wouldn't have given me the time of day. Pretty much all the way through my 20's I was not secure enough or mature enough to be good in a long term relationship. We can talk till we're blue in the face about why so many young men seem to be like that, but it won't really help your daughter. By the time I met my wife I had been knocked down by the world once or twice and had scored a few victories. Gaining a little humility, some self-confidence and enough knowledge to avoid repeating most of my really stupid mistakes was what it took to be compatible with a strong partner. If your daughter stays true to herself then at some point a guy who appreciates that, and can handle that, will come along.
loosechickens
12-5-11, 4:50pm
Gregg....what a GREAT post.....and so true. Neither my sweetie nor I would have EVER married each other when we were in our twenties....I was busy chasing "shiny red apples", and wouldn't have given my beloved husband of nearly 32 years now the time of day, him not being nearly glamorous enough for me, and he, who had visions of having six kids and a quiet wife who wouldn't question him would have had no interest in this much older, unable to have more children and very strong, opinionated, woman.
Yet, when we met, I'd had the rough edges of that desire for glamor knocked right out of me after a huge divorce from the famous (at the time) horse trainer I'd married, my sweetie had matured enough to value brains and strength of personality, and had also realized that it isn't necessary all the time to have your own kids when there are so many in need of mentoring, etc., and we have been ecstatically happy for more than three decades......
It's probably a blessing that your daughter hasn't found her life partner at an early age.......it may well save her from a "starter marriage", and when she does find the right guy, have a much better chance of long term success in the relationship.
Thanks Gregg and LC...........good stuff!
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