View Full Version : Witness to a train wreck
Not an actual, real train wreck, but a disaster of a situation.
I went over to the home of friends from church for the day. Everything was fine until the late 20-something son and his fiancee arrived about 5.
My friends are on the upper end of the middle class. Well-educated, classy people, very nice and unassuming. House is not huge, but it's very nice. The entire family (mom, dad, two kids) are foodies.
Son had been dating a young woman about his age for about a year, serious since the summer. Met through friends.
My friends' future DIL is a disaster. She was so rude. She could barely be civil to her future ILs. In addition, she kept saying, "I won't eat X, I won't eat Y." No food allergies, just an apparently very picky eater. Dinner was roasted pork loin, carrots done in brown sugar, parsley potatoes, and the peapods with basil I brought. She said the pork was icky, she didn't do brown sugar, wrinkled her nose at the potatoes, and said the peapods were gross. Dessert was a variety of candy and homemade cookies. Didn't want anything to do with any of it. From what I could tell, fiancee hadn't told her future parents-in-law anything about her likes/dislikes, because I suspect they would have been willing to accomodate her some.
I seriously wonder what son sees in his fiancee. She definitely doesn't fit in with the family, who are fairly conservative. The polite description for her is "edgy" but really she seems to be somewhat Goth. All black clothes, hair dyed jet black, heavy makeup with thick black eyeliner, tattoos in very visible places, facial piercings.
The daughter of the family is a professional chef and offered to do the wedding cake as part of her gift. Fiancee was very rude to her when they were talking cakes vs. cupcakes, etc. I was surprised the sister didn't throw her notebook at her future sister-in-law and just walk away.
Son and I were talking techy stuff some and fiancee kept interrupting.
The wedding is planned for next fall, and I really wonder if the wedding will actually take place. Whether or not the son is rebelling against his family some in his choice of wife, I'm not sure, but she definitely seems to be trying to make herself unwelcome. It was like watching a bad accident. You can't help but look. Made for some awfully good people watching. I kept wondering what the fiancee would say next. I had to laugh when I got out to my car because I'd been holding it for several hours (they weren't there until about 5).
The wife half of the parents confided to me that her future DIL was certainly not what she had hoped for, she just mentioned the food category to me, but I could read between the lines and figure out the rest.
What a day!
Who knows who she might be under all the prickliness? Perhaps she was intimidated by this visit. He clearly sees something in her! Life throws us all some pretty interesting situations and people...
goldensmom
12-26-11, 7:43am
How uncomfortable. At 20 something, his attraction to her could be purely physical, who knows. At 20 something, her actions were purely rude, she sounds angry to me.
My friends (the parents) are pretty accepting people. The kids were allowed to bring all sorts of their friends around when they were at home, and that included gay friends. Fiancee doesn't seem to get that regardless of how you look, if you are polite, that goes a long way with many people
She was showing an impressive amount of cleavage yesterday. I'd seen her a couple of times when the couple was visiting my parish - that's just how she dresses. However, I can only imagine the reaction when she's told that she won't be able to show any cleavage during the ceremony (the wedding will be at another area parish, that.s pretty conservative)!
Hard to watch but love them both and be a nonjudgemental place for the friends to vent.
Wow you had quite the holiday!
Agree with razz's advice to just be there for them to vent. I would not be surprised if the wedding doesn't take place either. I would like to bet that if the wife said that the future (hopefully ex-future) DIL is not what she hopes for to you, I would think that there is probably some concerns / discussions going on privately at home, or will be. Fall is still a way off. I wonder what will happen when the time comes for the premarital counseling? Hopefully that might wake the son up.
We had a similar situation with a cousin of mine years back. He was around 21, she 19. Complete mismatch and even other relatives couldn't see this happen. His aunt remarked to me that she wasn't exactly rushing to book airline tickets to attend the wedding. Sure enough, they had a fight, and in a fit of anger, called the wedding off. He said, OK and stuck to it. By that time, he had enough.
There are few things as awkward as watching your adult children make stupid choices and know that everyone else can see them too. Knowing how small groups can be, I encourage you to do what you can to run interference amongst mutual friends by shutting down gossip. They sound like a lovely couple and there are small people out there that love to see the "high and mightys" get brought down a peg or two through the antics of their children. I don't know that any of this is actually occurring but if it does...
Wow. I agree with redfox. Some people go into defensive mode when they are afraid/uncomfortable. Some people actually try to get people to reject them.
Still, she needs alot of work! I would be pretty bummed out if my son chose someone like that. I think I would have a heart-to-heart with her about some simple etiquette, like if you don't like food a host has prepared, then just don't say anything..........or bring your own.
sounds like she just needs a great deal of maturity on her, or a great deal of therapy. What a horrible way to act as a guest!
Sounds like she's going through an incredibly rebellious stage. I hope she grows out of it.
The best thing your friends could do is have the son and his fiancee over to the house for dinner every other weekend or so. They should serve something reasonably healthy yet tasty and suitable for foodies for the main part of the meal with optional dessert. When she complains about the food, they should say, "That's alright dear, we cook different things all the time. Perhaps you'll like the next meal better."
The object of this strategy is to provide a comfortable canvas where the family acts like calm reasonable people, and the fiancee's behavior shows as a sharp contrast. Usually after a few months of this at most, it will click for the family member that he is in for a long miserable life with the particular fiancee and he will break it off.
This works not just for food but also in cases where the potential fiancee is slack, has no interest in whatever the family is interested in but might be pretending interest to hook a spouse, is a bad parent, has poor social skills, is racist/s*xist, slobby, or has poor financial skills.
Miss Cellane
12-26-11, 5:41pm
Curious as to why they seem to be getting married at a church connected to his family and not hers? Not that there's a problem with that, but traditionally, don't couples get married at the bride's home church?
I'm wondering if the fiancee is intimidated by the classy, foodie, upper-middle class family that she's marrying into? Her behavior is typical of someone who's intimidated, but trying hard not to show it.
And it's not unheard of for someone from a conservative background to seek out a life partner who is the opposite of everything he/she was brought up to be. Whether this is a sign of rebellion on the young man's part or an example of love conquering all, it's hard to tell.
Bride is from another state, hasn't gone to church much since she'd been here (about 2 years) until she met the son of my friends. She's been going to church with him for the past six months or so and has indicated she wants to become a member of our denomination. Son goes to anothet parish of our denomination in the ares, one closer to where he lives. Her church affiliation was somewhat spotty even in her home state, I was told.
Also, friend's son is a practicing Orthodox, as we are. In order to not excommunicate himself, he has to get married in our church. Period.
jennipurrr
12-29-11, 12:17pm
I read this thread the other day, but I had to respond after my own Christmas experience. We had an extended family get together after Christmas and my aunt made a standing rib roast. My cousin's boyfriend (mid 20s) was coming and it was his first time to meet the extended family. They have been dating a year or two. He brought Arbys with him "in case he didn't like it" OMG!!! I guess he decided to try it, and did like it because he had 3 huge pieces...which he proceeded to eat by stabbing it with a fork and picking up the entire slice of meat and putting it directly into his mouth! My cousin gave him a dirty look and told him to stop, but he said he "couldn't bust out all my etiquette tricks in one night." So, obviously he knew this was not appropriate behavior?!?! It was strange and disturbing. Maybe this guy and the girl you met should meet.
OMG jennipurrr............how awful!
You said "I don't know what he sees in her".
To paraphrase Isaac Asimov, this might mean "what he sees in her" is "what you don't see". Especially likely if the young man was not very experienced in that type of intimacy before he got serious with this woman. I have seen this in some friends' kids who started out shy with the ladies.
I apopligise if this post is a bit indelicate.
I dated women only for 21 years, and had two significant relationships during that time. Then I fell in love with a guy 14 years younger. We're been partners for 15 years, and are now married. I identify as bisexual, and if he & I were to split up, I would probably date women again. There are many people who have rolled their eyes at me over the course of my adult life, for one reason or another. For quite some time, I was that person your mother warned you about! We all have many facets...
I don't think any of my boyfriends' parents were wild about me, and there was never anything wrong with my manners or deportment. My beloved's mother referred to me as "What's-her-name" 'til the day she died. Like I said, I'm not exactly a "people person." http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/light_skin/yahoo.gif
But good manners should be expected from everyone, no matter what orientation/sex/age/etc. you are.
The behaviors mentioned in this thread are more about rudeness and insensitivity, rather than any other complaint. Don't you agree?
I guess it goes back to maturity. Lots of kids in their 20's, just haven't lived enough or had enough experiences to lead them in the direction of being more sensitive, etc.
I do agree that good manners should be expected from everyone. I'm not sure age or experience should be a criteria though. Manners are better taught than just absorbed.
I recently read an article about something an elementary school for lower income kids in the UK was doing that I thought was a great idea. They had been having a dinner for all the students once every two weeks as a means of creating a sense of community in the school. They started to notice that the kids had no table manners. A lot of them didn't even know how to use silverware because they were used to eating cheap fast foods with their hands. So they decorated the dining room to mimic the Hogwart School dining room in the Harry Potter movies and taught the fine table manners that Hogwarts used. The kids loved it.
But good manners should be expected from everyone, no matter what orientation/sex/age/etc. you are.
The behaviors mentioned in this thread are more about rudeness and insensitivity, rather than any other complaint. Don't you agree?
Correct. If my friend's son's fiancee had been polite, this thread wouldn't exist!
I saw my friends at a holiday party last night. She mentioned the fiancee with multiple huge sighs. "It is what is" she said with a grimace.
Cut her some slack we can't all be perfect can we?
ApatheticNoMore
12-30-11, 3:20am
For many parents out there noone is ever really good enough for their "precious" anyway.
crunchycon
12-30-11, 7:52am
I dunno - quirks/differences in dress and personality are things parents can adapt to, but rude is still rude.
goldensmom
12-30-11, 8:11am
I dunno - quirks/differences in dress and personality are things parents can adapt to, but rude is still rude.
Agreed, everyone I know, including me, has quirks and differences but rude is rude and socially unacceptable. Social norms are all around us and with the exception of one who has been kept socially isolated from childhood there is no reason for intentional rudeness.
Ditto to what crunchycon and goldensmom said. Lots of things are able to be overlooked, as long as the basic/core of the person appears good. and that is reflected in civility and sensitivity to one's behavior's effects on the people around you.
She appears to be oblivious and uncaring about her impact on others. I don't believe anything is going to change that--empathy just isn't part of her. This is a disorder, and I think you can only protect yourself/family from it by limiting the amount of time you spend with her. My sil is like that, but she has energy my brother needs to be able to have a life.
Miss Cellane
12-30-11, 12:27pm
I wonder whether this young lady was simply not taught manners as a child--it is entirely possible. Or if she is picking up on the vibe that her fiance's family doesn't like her or approve of her, and therefore she is being deliberately rude--rejecting them before they can reject her.
Either way, if she is going to marry into the family, and the parents would like to continue to see their son, the parents need to work out a way of getting along with her. And not talking about her behind her back might be a first step. They can also gently state that criticism of food is not allowed in their house. She can refuse food, but she can't criticize it--house rule. They can create any other "house rules" that they like.
But if they want a good relationship with her, they need to work at it. So does she--I'm not overlooking the young woman's role in all of this. And I'm wondering why her fiance didn't clue her in a bit more about his family and how they interact.
But if it ends up a train wreck, it's going to be because all of them failed, not just because the young women doesn't like their food and can't express that politely.
And I do question how much say she is getting in her own wedding planning. The church is her husband-to-be's church. The cake is going to be made by her future SIL. It could very well be that she feels her fiance's family is taking over an event that should be her's to plan. Not knowing the details of what's been said and done, just the few things in the OP, I do wonder about the situation. One interpretation is that the family doesn't like her, her religion or trust her to choose wisely in the details of the wedding. That'd bother me and I might not be completely gracious in those circumstances.
She appears to be oblivious and uncaring about her impact on others. I don't believe anything is going to change that--empathy just isn't part of her. This is a disorder, and I think you can only protect yourself/family from it by limiting the amount of time you spend with her. My sil is like that, but she has energy my brother needs to be able to have a life.
Appearing to be oblivious of one's impact on others is often in the arsenal of defensive gestures used by I'm too hipster for you teens & young adults. It's a time tested and well crafted stance for individuation; many of us practiced this form of distancing from parent types, I suspect.
I wonder whether this young lady was simply not taught manners as a child--it is entirely possible. Or if she is picking up on the vibe that her fiance's family doesn't like her or approve of her, and therefore she is being deliberately rude--rejecting them before they can reject her.
Either way, if she is going to marry into the family, and the parents would like to continue to see their son, the parents need to work out a way of getting along with her. And not talking about her behind her back might be a first step. They can also gently state that criticism of food is not allowed in their house. She can refuse food, but she can't criticize it--house rule. They can create any other "house rules" that they like.
But if they want a good relationship with her, they need to work at it. So does she--I'm not overlooking the young woman's role in all of this. And I'm wondering why her fiance didn't clue her in a bit more about his family and how they interact.
But if it ends up a train wreck, it's going to be because all of them failed, not just because the young women doesn't like their food and can't express that politely.
And I do question how much say she is getting in her own wedding planning. The church is her husband-to-be's church. The cake is going to be made by her future SIL. It could very well be that she feels her fiance's family is taking over an event that should be her's to plan. Not knowing the details of what's been said and done, just the few things in the OP, I do wonder about the situation. One interpretation is that the family doesn't like her, her religion or trust her to choose wisely in the details of the wedding. That'd bother me and I might not be completely gracious in those circumstances.
Bride herself said she was interested in our denomination through friends before she even met my friend's son. She doesn't have a church of her own at all. At least not in this state. And other state is a good ways away. But her immediate relatives are here.
And the offer of a cake was an offer. Not a forcing it on them. Most people I know would be thrilled at the OFFER of a cake done by a relative as part of their gift. But bride and the sister "discussing" cake was a show. Bride wants DARK GREY frosting. Sister, who has lots of experience with wedding cakes, albeit not dark grey ones, gently suggested more than once that grey frosting would not be very pretty and perhaps the grey would be better added via ribbon or accents on the cake. Bride threw a hissy fit. Somehow it was narrowed down to cupcakes over an actual cake. Bride still had dark grey frosting on her mind. Sister suggested a frosting with blueberry flavor/coloring with a blueberry in the very top of frosting swirl is close to grey-ish. Bride threw another hissy fit that "no fruit of any kind was going to come near her wedding cake or cupcakes." Sister eventually got her somewhat calmed down by saying she'd talk to some chef friends and see if they had any ideas for a grey that might not look dull.
Frankly, I wonder at the wisdom of my friend's son choosing to attend, join, and get married at the parish they have. The priest is extremely conservative, almost as conservative my former control-freak priest. The priest that will be marrying them is conservative to the point that he really discourages artificial birth control and has a large family himself. I only know this because my former priest, who was also anti-artificial birth control, used to say that this other priest was the only other one in the area who thought like him on ABC. I had since heard it from other people. I don't know if my friend's son knew this (he and fiancee had only met once with priest, pretty much just the set the wedding date meeting), so I pulled him aside and told him what I knew about his new priest and his feelings about ABC.
Son's reaction? His jaw dropped. I told him I didn't know if his priest was going to bring it up in their premarital counseling, but I certainly wanted him to be aware that it MIGHT happen, given his priest's reputation, as well as the fact that he has a fiancee who is both non-Orthodox and fairly liberal (from her own admission). Forewarned is forearmed.
Bride has an interesting family. Hasn't talked to her mom since she was a young teenager. Another female relative is very close to her, though. Her dad, though, acts like she is at his beck and call. My friend's son and his fiancee were supposed to be at his parent's house much earlier than they were supposed to be. But her dad decided they HAD to make him spaghetti and stay with him while he ate, even though they had a set time at my friend's home. Her dad is well able to cook himself, no physical disabilities that preclude him cooking.
We'll also not talk about the more than a quarter of a million in school debt she said she's eventually going to have (for a doctorate in a creative field). She thinks it's no big deal. Yikes! But then that is just the mindset of those her age I've run into before. <scratches head>
Sounds like in any case, she might turn out to be Bridezilla, too.
iris lily
12-30-11, 11:39pm
I think that if she wants grey frosting, let her have grey frosting. Someone's idea of how it looks is just someone's idea and I don't think they are necessairly right to say it looks un-pretty because I think it might look pretty if they can get the color right.
I think these kids are probably just immature and are finding their way in the world. I hope that with maturity both will become more comfortable in social settings and subsequently more gracious.
Iris, putting aside the grey frosting itself, the hissy fit was just over the top. Bridezilla, indeed!
puglogic
12-31-11, 12:19am
Our cake was brown, and shaped like a mountain with white fondant snow capped peaks. There were trees, and the bride and groom were hiking on it. My mother-in-law just about came undone. Just saying -- one person's dark gray is a another person's silver :D
She sounds like a piece of work, though. Young/individualist or not, I hope someone is counseling the the husband-to-be about what the interest on $250K of student loans looks like, and who's likely to end up paying it in the long run. Feeling you "need" a doctorate in a creative field is a huge red flag to me -- unless she wants to teach.
Hope things work out well.
How cool your cake was Pug!!
Miss Cellane
12-31-11, 9:47am
And the offer of a cake was an offer. Not a forcing it on them. Most people I know would be thrilled at the OFFER of a cake done by a relative as part of their gift. But bride and the sister "discussing" cake was a show. Bride wants DARK GREY frosting. Sister, who has lots of experience with wedding cakes, albeit not dark grey ones, gently suggested more than once that grey frosting would not be very pretty and perhaps the grey would be better added via ribbon or accents on the cake. Bride threw a hissy fit. Somehow it was narrowed down to cupcakes over an actual cake. Bride still had dark grey frosting on her mind. Sister suggested a frosting with blueberry flavor/coloring with a blueberry in the very top of frosting swirl is close to grey-ish. Bride threw another hissy fit that "no fruit of any kind was going to come near her wedding cake or cupcakes." Sister eventually got her somewhat calmed down by saying she'd talk to some chef friends and see if they had any ideas for a grey that might not look dull.
Okay, I'm not arguing that the young woman was rude to her fiance's family. But I was wondering *why* anyone would deliberately try to alienate her in-laws so decisively. Most people try, at least at the start, to give the best impression that they can.
Let's look at this offer of a cake. Yes, it's a lovely offer. If the young couple wants a cake and if they like the style and taste of the sister's cakes. But clearly that offer comes with strings attached. The bride's first choice, the grey frosting, is instantly rejected and several other things suggested. But when the bride insists on the grey frosting, the sister keeps rejecting the idea. The "show" could have been avoided if the sister had more tact in dealing with the bride, or if the sister had just accepted the idea of grey frosting. Or mentioned that dark grey frosting is difficult to get right and she'd have to consult with other bakers to see how to achieve the look the bride wants, and in the meantime, maybe the bride could think up a second choice, just in case the dark grey doesn't pan out? Sounds to me as if the bride doesn't want a typical "pretty" cake anyway.
The bride may well feel that she is going to have to fight this way with this family over everything, related to the wedding or not. She may just want to make sure that her wishes don't get steamrollered by the in-law family.
And if the bride comes from a dysfunctional family, she is going to be interpreting the actions of her in-laws through her own filters, which may cause her to put the wrong interpretations on their actions. Her in-laws, if they want a good relationship with her, should understand that and compensate for it, just as the bride is going to have to learn to interpret their actions correctly.
I just feel sorry for the young couple. His family doesn't like her. Her family doesn't sound like it gives her much support at all.
Like was mentioned earlier, some people do this, whether intentional or not, to push people away out of feeling that they are unworthy. I'll bet if people continue to be kind to her, you will begin to see a nicer person emerge.
I agree with the idea that manners are very important.
But with this, it's also important to recognize -- or acknowledge -- that what constitutes good manners can be different between areas of the country (or world), different socio-economic groups, even various families.
I am always very manners focused, but usually still getting myself into trouble.
I remember moving from CA to arkansas. When children would say "yes ma'am!" to my mother, to her, this was "sass." and it is rude and you do not do it. but, in the south, you MUST say "yes, ma'am!" or you were giving them "sass!" When a teacher asked me something once, I said "yes, thank you." and she said "yes what?" and I said "yes, thank you?" again, and she said, exasperated, "yes WHAT?" and I said "yes, mrs teacher?" and she said, more exasperated, "you need to learn manners, it's "yes, ma'am!" be respectful!" I learned that you use "yes ma'am" outside of the home, but not in. That's just a cultural difference.
Today, having moved to NZ, I run into these confusions *all the time*. THe rules *are* different here, and we do a lot of things that are considered 'rude' or 'brash' -- even though they are perfectly fine in the US.
Additionally, when I first met my ILs, it didn't go well. And I was definitely on my best behavior. First, DH didn't introduce me to them, so I took the initiative and introduced myself (he gets distracted or "forgets" to introduce people -- it's weird). This, apparently, was a huge affront, as I should have waited to be introduced.
I was later informed that no one in their family will talk to a stranger at a party until either A. the person introduces themselves or B. they are introduced to someone by a mutual friend. For them, it is rude to assume that 1. people want to know who you are just because you happen to be in the same room (even if it's just you and one other person), and 2. if you are a guest of a person whom they know, then you are only there to be seen and not heard (or acknowledged) until you are formally introduced, because they don't know your 'status" to the other person until you are introduced.
Ironically, these are not wealthy people who are concerned as to whether you are "the help" vs a regular person of note to whom one should speak. I have no idea where this notion comes from, other than a sense of social awkwardness.
Nevertheless, by introducing myself, i was RUDE, and from there, they bristled well away from me. Over the years, I have tried every means to be good and gracious and whatever else, and -- let me be honest -- they are just strange people to me and I am strange to them.
This goes to the idea that the bride may be misintrpreting what the family is doing. I do this ALL THE TIME with my ILs. I truly do not understand their motives for anything, but i have the sense that they are trying very hard to relate. And, I acknowledge this and try very hard to relate as well. I fall back on my manners as best as I can, even though 95% of that is entirely misintrpreted.
I think that we just have the wrong sense of each other, or really -- as it was explained to me -- they smply cannot conceive of me. They cannot understand me at all, because i'm so far out of their frame of reference. And, being perfectionistic (in a psychological way) and needing, desprately, to be "right and good" all the time, there's no internal barometer, it's all external. And anything that is different than "what they know" and what they and their friend's do is a risky, dangerous endeavor into "wrong and bad."
So, they cannot conceive of why we would actively seek to be "wrong and bad" in our lives, when we should be "right and good" which is very specific in their world view.
I don't actively "buck" against this. I just AM this.
Does that make sense?
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