Authentic objects

[iris lily]

Today I had a couple of experiences with "authenticity" in objects.

Our dining area table is authentic, it's the real deal, a turn of the century small 6 sided walnut table. DH has never liked it, and in order to appease him, today I'm looking around for something else. Today I found a very chap 50's type walnut or mahogany drop leaf table. This latter thing is masquerading as an 18th century reproduction. You know the style of furniture I'm talking about, it's all over the place. I don't like it, but I don't hate it, so I am considering it.

And then, on This Old House tonight, the kitchen designer of the house project said that she was planning the kitchen (all put in brand new) to look as though it had been added in pieces over time. INAUTHENTIC! That is very icky, I think.

I am trying to reconcile reproduction furniture, when it is nice quality, in the context of "authentic."

Someone, help me out and speak to this issue.

[redfox]

My husband was a fine furniture builder, and many pieces he was commissioned to make were derivitave of various styles. He & the rest of the shop made gorgeous pieces, but they never passed them off as period pieces. They were what they were: modern builds of craftsman, mostly, or whatever style that was requested.

So what does authentic mean? The table you're looking at is authentically a table. If the design references earlier designs, is that bad? Not in my opinion. Is it well built, from materials that will last, and that you like are the criteria I consider important.

[early morning]

Technically, authenticity in furniture is pretty clear. If it's made in the "style of" then it's not authentic, it's a reproduction. BUT this is not a bad thing, necessarily. Reproduction does not mean cheap, or poorly made, or ugly, it just means that the design of the furniture is copied from another time period, and it's been done for centuries. But in this case, I second redfox - what do you mean by authentic re: furniture, Irish Lily? It seems to me the words "authentic" and "inauthentic" have become sort of psycho-babble buzzwords for whatever someone does or doesn't like. I've noticed them popping up a lot in the last few years, and I'm not sure exactly what people mean by them in various contexts. When asked, they don't always know either. So it really comes down to this - do you like the table, or not? Does DH like the table? What are his objections to your real period table? Does the other table counter those objections? I love our authentic dining room table (a late 1800's long farmhouse three-board top) but not our authentic kitchen one (DD's Formica topped 1940's chrome legged wonder). FWIW, I have found that with tables I don't like, tablecloths cover a lot of sins ;).

[iris lily]

I know, my post didn't make much sense. There is nothing wrong with well crafted reproduction items.

Ok, you know what's really bugging me? It's the plastic crap on my ceiling. DH added another ceiling medallian. I HATE the idea of it although it doesn't look, in realty, all that bad because our house with 11' ceilings can carry it off. Well, it doesn't look all that bad until you go into the house of my neighbor who has an authentic plaster ceiling medallion. This post of mine was not very articulate because I was ill at ease with something, couldn't identify what for sure--maybe it's the ceiling medallian that's bugging me, and plus my love of old kitchens, it's annoying that the teevee designer is purposely putting in sections of a kitchen to not match and to look as though they were added at different times.

But also, that 50's mahogany Duncan Fyfe stuff seems kinds of chintzy to me. They are not, essentially, quality reproductions.

Agreed that a tablecloth covers a multitude of sins. The table that we almost bought (now someone else swooped in and got it) had damage to the finish on top, and that didn't bother me.

[redfox]

I'm currently in Oakland, and yesterday, I drove from a community in Sonoma county where the homes are $460,000+, down through Berkeley, into a stretch of Oakland where people were sleeping on mattresses on the sidewalk. I'm just happy to have a (decidedly NOT $460,000+) roof over my head & a nice kitchen, with a sweet kitchen table (of unknown provenance) upon which many happy meals have been shared with friends & family. The patina of stains, use, and wear that table has taken on is considerably more valuable to me than any vaunted antique. That is authenticity to me.

[peggy]

Iris, I kind of know what you mean. You know that medallion is plastic, so the value of it is crap in your eyes. And no matter how good it looks, you will always think 'plastic' when you look at it. I have one of those crank open type windows in my bathroom. I know lots of people have and like those, but unfortunately to me they say trailer park. Trailers always seem to have those crank windows. Sure they are usually cheaper, but crank all the same. I just hate that window so this next spring I've decided to replace it. Sure, it's kind of an esthetic thing, but it goes deeper than that. Whenever i go in there, that window (and it's a big one) is the first, last, and main thing that just rubs me wrong. It spoils my enjoyment of that room. Maybe that's shallow of me, I don't know, but I do know I will never 'learn' to like it.
Can you convenience your husband to replace the medallion with a plaster one? My litmus test is, when I'm on my death bed, will I regret doing, or not doing something. Will you say to yourself, 'You know what, I hated that medallion all these years, and every time I went into the kitchen it mocked me like, well, the cheap plastic crap it was. Why didn't I simply replace it!'

[Gregg]

Only in America would replacing true wabi-sabi with a counterfeit version be generally accepted. I think it has something to do with the fact that our country is only a little over 200 years old. We just don't have much history available in items that were created here so have to find other ways to keep up with places that have a few thousand years under their belts.

[bae]

I have mostly Craftsman-syle furniture in my house, the result of having spent nearly a decade restoring a 1910-vintage Craftsman-style cottage in the SF Bay Area.

Some of the furtniture is original. Some of it is made by modern craftsmen, however. I don't view it as inauthentic, it is still made with similar techniques and materials by people who care. Some of it is modern "reproductions" of designs, but by the very same company that was making it back in the early 1900s - is that "inauthentic" or merely "new"?

I go by craftsmanship and materials. Cheesy particle board stapled together doesn't make the grade. Using the incorrect joinery slapped together with too much glue and a couple of nails to stabilize it doesn't work for me either, it'll just fall apart.

[Miss Cellane]

The plastic ceiling medallion would bother me, too.

The table, not so much. It's like anything else, some of the 1950s reproductions were well-made, well-designed pieces of furniture. Some were junk. If I found a 60 year old table in good condition that I liked the look and lines of, and the price was right, I'd buy it. I wouldn't be thinking, "Well, this is a reproduction. It can't be as good as the original." I'd probably be thinking how lucky I was to find a solid wood table that had held up for 60 years and looked ready to last at least another 20 and bonus points that I thought it was attractive. Even if I had to refinish it because the finish was a bit damaged.

Now, a lot of furniture made today with MDF and thin veneers isn't going to last 60 years and if it does, it will look like crap. And you won't be able to refinish it.

I'm probably biased because I grew up with a 1950s reproduction Ducan Phyfe dining table, the kind with the large drop leaves. It was the second piece of furniture my parents bought after they were married. The first was the hide-a-bed sofa they slept on for 4 years. The table replaced the orange crate that was their dining/coffee table for two years. It survived about 16 military moves and seven kids. My brother has it now and just spent about $300 getting the legs repaired. He was going to buy a new table when one of the legs snapped off on Thanksgiving Day (apparently all the people and the 25 pound turkey were just too much for it), but couldn't find anything that he liked that he could afford. It's sturdier now than it has been for years, and should be fine for another 20 years now.

Iris Lily, the one thing I wouldn't do is buy something, especially something that's going to be around for years and years, because you don't hate it. Maybe you just don't like the style of those 1950s reproductions. That's fine. In fact, that's a good thing to know, because you can just stop looking at anything that fits in that category and concentrate on finding something that you and your DH both love. Or at least both like.

Just don't buy something because you don't hate it. You'll probably end up hating it in a few years.

[bae]

"If you want a golden rule that will fit everything, this is it: Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful." - William Morris

"There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey." - John Ruskin

[JaneV2.0]

If you ever want to replace the plastic ceiling medallion, here's a resource:
http://www.vintagehardware.com/index.php?cmd=cat&catid=120

[Anne Lee]

I think it's ridiculous that the designer is faking a look of acquiring things over time. THAT'S inauthentic. I know the matchy matchy look is terribly unchic but surely there are other ways to decorate a room.

I am rather strict about such things. Reproductions are fine, especially of classic styles. However, I am of the opinion that a room with reproductions should have modern flair so as to not to be appearing to try to hard

[IshbelRobertson]

I think the William Morris quote (above) says it all.

I have LOTS of family furniture - even bits from the 1600s. Some is not to my taste, but other family members refused to give it house room, and I didn't want to sell it - so here it stays (hidden - in most cases, in bedrooms that are seldom used). My house has intricate carved pannelling in some of the rooms; there are panels of stained glass (a HUGE one in a window frame on the half landing).

BUT: I have some modern pieces, too - bought because I like them!

IrisLily: I'd certainly draw the line at plastic ceiling roses! I have deep, complicated cornices in most of the public rooms of the house - original and a devil to paint - also ceiling roses which were put there when the house was built.

[early morning]

Ugh, plastic medallions - now that I understand! Sadly, we have one. 22 feet up in the stairwell. Ain't ever gonna get changed, at least by us - just replacing the lightbulb is death-defying enough! At least the light itself isn't too hideous. I like that quote of William Morris, too. And I have a very eclectic house of furniture, all things we love, even if they are from lots of different periods, and many are probably quite unlovely to anyone else, lol.

Iris Lily, I think I understand what you mean about the TV kitchens. We've watched several episodes of this This Old House where the homeowner and contractor are discussing what to do with a really nice old kitchen - and it's always "tear out this wall, replace the old cabinets, put down a new floor..." It kills me to see a very functional old room, with lots of character, gutted to become just another cliched magazine spread. Ugh ugh ugh.

I'm still mulling the terms authentic and inauthentic. In terms of "stuff" - in this case, furniture, I don't think that something that is not "authentic", in the sense that it's of the period, is "inauthentic" - it's just a reproduction, which is by no means necessarily bad. Shaker items, for example. They can be made in exactly the way a Shaker piece was, of like material, and it can be an excellent quality reproduction. It can never be an authentic Shaker piece, but I don't think of it as "inauthentic". (Don't lets argue about Sabbathday Lake, please..) More to think about.

[iris lily]

I won't be demanding that DH take down the ceiling medallions because it took 22 years to get the living room drywalled, finished, and painted and it is finally done, but it's not perfect. The first medallian went up 16 years ago before I found better quality ones. I had planned to take down the plastic ones and put up ones similar to those in Jane's link, but DH did the work without checking with me. He put up crown moulding which is lovely, we did not argue over that. We argued quite a bit over inauthentic stairway spindles (which are not up, by the way! When will that happen? perhaps the year 2014!) and I lost that battle. El junko modern "victorian" spindles are going in instead of 1) plain ones or 2) actual Victorian ones which can be had at the local archietecural remnant store.

and so every design decsion requires much negotiation. Today we had 3 arguments over acrylic curtain rods. I currently am in love with acrylic--well I have to confess, I've ALWAYS love acrylic and lucite furnishings. DH thinks they are junk.

As far as decorating, I agree so much with you Anne, I've got antiques but today bought brand new furniture--upholstered pieces--based on trendy mid-century modern lines. My new dining room chairs are modern sleek inexpensive pieces.

[iris lily]

You guys are great, good comments, all. peggy, that is right, if something bothers you forever, fix it! I will wait and see how bad this gets to me.

And you Miss C you are right about not buying something because I don't hate it. I'm trying to make DH happy because he hates the little turn of the century table we have now. A dog chewed it, it has a old and worn finish, but I'm found of it. He wants a traditional table with leaves and I think that is just boring. But the Duncan Phyfe double pedestal fold-down leaf table does seem practical for the space we have.

[Miss Cellane]

Iris Lily, no one I know understands why I keep the "big green chair" in my living room. It's old, heck, it belonged to my grandparents. It's a bit stained in places and faded in others. One cat has clawed parts of it to shreds. But it is the most comfortable chair I own. The back is high enough to rest my head on, the height is perfect. It's just a great chair. Needs to be recovered, but I don't have the funds right now. But I'd get rid of a newer, "prettier" chair before I'd get rid of this one. I think I'd love your six-sided table, dog bites and all.

Don't get the Ducan Phyfe-style table. If the drop leaves are down, only two people can sit at it. Look for a more modern table. Some of them now store the leaves inside the table, which means you don't have to find room to store the extra ones. A round table might work better in your space--I'm guessing this from the fact that the six-sided table works well for you.

Have you tried going to a site like Canadel website, where you can play around with their "customize your table" tool, and build tables with different styles of legs and tabletops? Not necessarily to buy one of their tables, but to get an idea of what you'd both like.

Don't settle. Explore a little.

[Mrs-M]

In my world, two categories exist. There's original (antique), and there's authentic. Authentic, IMO, expresses "to resemble", "to match", "to mimic". Nothing more than reproduction, so be-it, however creative one is in applying buzz-wording to the front of "reproduction", that's essentially what one is getting when one looks and leans towards "authentic". i.e. Authentic reproduction, period reproduction, 18th century reproduction (it's all the same).

My mantra is, buy quality, be selective, choose wisely, and stay away from anything/everything that speaks, predictable.