View Full Version : Question for all 12 steppers out there...
... but only answer here if you want to be public. Otherwise, PM me.
My nephew, H, the heroin addict, has been evicted by my sis - THANK GOODNESS - as she apparently has hit her bottom as a codependent, after some pretty gruesome abuse from him, including his forging his sister's checks, multiple thefts of my sis's stuff, trashing her house, having a friend OD in her house (he survived), etc. He is at his father's house... His father who is a conservative Sunni Muslim Egyptian, and I give it a week at best.
H has many outstanding tickets in three counties for speeding, and likely has a suspended license (motorcycle) for non-payment. I have a friend in the prosecuting atty's office who told me, upon inquiry, that it's possible he could be arrested due to these tix. I want to trigger that to open up the possibility of getting him into treatment. I'd call the jurisdictions, tell them that my nephew is a heroin addict, where he is living, and ask them to batch the charges & use their power to get him into inpatient, and hope for this outcome.
Three questions: is this my own co-dependency? I think not, but I am also really scared for his life, and want to intervene if I can. This seems like an appropriate way to get the system involved.
Second: should I talk this over with his father? H is 20 years old, an adult at least chronologically. His father is an attorney in Egypt, though it's been years since he's practised. He may understand that this intervention strategy is a potentially good one, he may not. His approach thus far is to attempt the patriarchial browbeating learned in his own traditional upbringing... to little success, as I hear it. Though his son did tell him about the addiction, which I found very brave.
Third: If I don't involve his father, I would stay anonymous in my family.
Thanks for any feedback.
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-12, 3:13am
H has many outstanding tickets in three counties for speeding, and likely has a suspended license (motorcycle) for non-payment. I have a friend in the prosecuting atty's office who told me, upon inquiry, that it's possible he could be arrested due to these tix. I want to trigger that to open up the possibility of getting him into treatment. I'd call the jurisdictions, tell them that my nephew is a heroin addict, where he is living, and ask them to batch the charges & use their power to get him into inpatient, and hope for this outcome.
I think you are asking the criminal justice system to do what it does not do. It's not about getting people into treatment. The criminal justice system is about putting people in jail period. Now ... unpaid traffic tickets are probably not exactly a serious crime and are more likely to be handled by a collection agency than the criminal justice system, I'd think. But really what the criminal justice system does *when* it is involved is arrest not rehab (yes sometimes some sentencing can be handled via rehab, but the criminal justice system is really not a social service agency, IOW it's about processing people through the system not saving them).
Three questions: is this my own co-dependency? I think not, but I am also really scared for his life, and want to intervene if I can. This seems like an appropriate way to get the system involved
No I don't think so, you may have geniune reasons to fear for his life. Yes talking with the father makes sense. Over time if they survive even people who haven't undergone extensive rehabs, often emotionally mature out of their addictions, but this type of maturity often doesn't hit until late 20s at the earliest :\ And yea he's an adult for sure, but so young ...
Right... I am hoping the criminal justice system will mandate him into treatment as a part of rectifying his fines. This is not uncommon. Thanks!
domestic goddess
2-3-12, 5:45am
The criminal justice system can mandate drug treatment as a way to avoid jail time, or as a part of his sentence, but they can't make him follow the program. I have a family member who is in a court-mandated drug treatment program, who is now in prison for failing a drug test. He has been taking weekly drug tests all along, so it isn't like he was surprised by this, but he thought he could "beat" it. I hope he now realizes that he can't, that he really can't come up with any tricks that the counsellors haven't already seen. I really hope so. I know he would say now that he realizes that, and that he will straighten up, but I feel pretty sure that as soon as he gets out of prison he will go right back to using when he wants to. It makes me furious; he is a paid guest of the state, while his family, including 2 children, are scrambling to keep their home. In the meantime, he doesn't have to worry about what will become of his family, because, what can he do about it?
Be sure that your nephew has a lawyer who will ask the judge for this consideration. It costs a bit, but it is better to have someone who knows the legal ins and outs. I commend you for your concern, but don't be too quick to assume that this will "cure" him, or solve all problems. I hope it will, because I live in hope, but my experience tells me not to be too hopeful. I hope you have better luck.
A friend's daughter was abusing and when arrested for second DUI her choices were jail or a diversion program. If she followed all the house arrest rules for 6 months with ankle monitoring, she would not have it on her record.
Note: Her mom is a very good lawyer.
It was the hardest thing she ever did and, according to her mother, very few actually make it thru the whole program. It was nothing like TV.
The daughter had to make the choice and there was no other program or treatment.
Stay out of it because "treatment" means nothing if the person does not want it.
A agree with the others. You're not being codependent in the traditional sense, but you are trying to control the outcome of his disease. As others have said, what seems logical to a non-addicted person (he's going to be hit his bottom so hard he'll stop when he goes to treatment) is your conjecture based on what a rational response would be. Addiction is NOT rational and has no rhyme or reason.
Plus, you are extended family. If I were the father and found out that his arrest had been calculated by my sister or brother, I'd be furious. As much as you love your nephew, it's not your business. It's not even his father's. It's only his and his Higher Power's. That's my opinion anyway.
Agreed with all. Though for me there is always some gray area between the two big concerns whenever dealing with addiction (ymmv):
1) you have to do what you can live with - not to influence the outcome, not because you think you're that powerful (you're not), but because you want to stay in good graces with your Future Self, even if the worst happens. Illusion or not, it was very helpful for me to know that I did all I could.
2) you have to let them fall, and find their own way. It's not your fight, it's theirs. You haven't even been asked to help. He may not even want your help. And you cannot know what will help him the most - sometimes incarceration actually helps.
Sometimes the place where those two intersect isn't always clear. And sometimes, nothing works. Sending you hope and strength, redfox, to find your own proper path, and let him take the journey he needs to take. It's so heartbreaking.
Such good feedback! Thank you. I am in no hurry to take any action, and am ingathering...
Wow, pug, what a great post.
My best wishes, redfox. I have to agree with others that this is not your call, and that when we think about outcomes we often don't consider the unintended consequences of our actions. I hope you and your sister can find some peace. This is new information for you and your sister has just come out from a heavy dark load of secrecy, if I understand the situation correctly. Supporting her might be your best way to help in this situation. But of course I don't know that.....just sending my good wishes and a hug ((((((redfox))))))
...treatment means nothing if the person does not want it.
See, that's what I was thinking, too.
When I asked my addict brother whether he wanted to get treatment, he thought about it for a long minute. And he eventually answered, "No, what I want is to wake up and be living an entirely normal life like everyone else, except that I always feel as good as I feel when I'm high." (he is pretty direct that way) (and he is clean) Until they're ready to do the hard work of getting from here to there, there is little chance that any sort of treatment will work.
Support your sister emotionally as needed and let your nephew live his own life making his own decisions whatever they may be is MHO.
Boundaries are really hard to set especially for oneself but think about the lifeguard who can do nothing until the drowning victim calms down or collapses and even then follows proper defensive procedures.
rodeosweetheart
2-4-12, 8:47pm
I am sorry you are going through this, Redfox.
To answer your question, yes, I think this is codependent, or at least very out of bounds--not sure if codependent the right word. This is not up to you to control, and I would stay out of it. Support your sister, pray for your nephew--in a 12 step phrase, "keep your side of the street clean."
And to repeat, I am really, really sorry that you are suffering, and I know you are suffering.
My stepson put his sister in treatment because he felt that something needed to be done, and lacking a magic wand, that was the only thing he could do. If nothing else, the seed has been planted, she knows what treatment entails, she knows who to call, and has learned some tools for managing emotions and compulsions.
Whether it takes or not, DSS knows that he did all he could do.
I think of co-dependency as more involving paying someone's bills, making excuses for them, generally doing for them what an adult should do for themselves.
Seeking medical intervention for a potentially deadly condition doesn't seems co-dependent to me. Possibly futile, but then again maybe not.
Why don't you take the direct approach and give him the phone number of a local methadone program? http://findtreatment.samhsa.gov/TreatmentLocator/faces/quickSearch.jspx
It is so hard to step back and watch....but that is the best thing for you to do. He has to hit his bottom...you cannot "create" his bottom for him.
Just pray for him and for his family. Everything is happening for a reason :)
It is so hard to step back and watch....but that is the best thing for you to do. He has to hit his bottom...you cannot "create" his bottom for him.
Just pray for him and for his family. Everything is happening for a reason :)
This is pretty much the conclusion I have come to. He has already sought out suboxone treatment, and I lived with a methadone addict; it's not much better than shooting H. Love & support for all, and hope that he lives through hitting bottom.
Redfox, hugs to you for dealing with this as addiction is so painful to watch happen to those you love. Been there, doing that myself so know that it is hard.
ApatheticNoMore
2-7-12, 11:49pm
It is so hard to step back and watch....but that is the best thing for you to do. He has to hit his bottom...you cannot "create" his bottom for him.
I don't like the "hitting bottom" language. How is one to know what bottom is anyway? As long as one is above ground things can pretty much ALWAYS get worse (can get better also, but we're talking bottoms :moon: :moon: :moon: - shaky, shaky moon bottoms). Perhaps I just prefer "wants to change" and *even* then it's hit or miss (but without that it's hopeless).
This is pretty much the conclusion I have come to. He has already sought out suboxone treatment, and I lived with a methadone addict; it's not much better than shooting H.
Yea methadone is ugly (at least no dirty needles and so on, but still ugly)
Apathetic, I know what you mean--hitting bottom seems very harsh, but I think the intent of the word is to get to the point at which total surrender can take place, and usually it takes a lot of pain before that happens. Maybe people don't know which event is going to become the bottom, but the inner feeling of surrender is usually pretty easy to identify.
"Bottom" to me means that the emotional and psychological pain that the addict is wrestling with finally becomes less than the consequences that s/he is having to cope with. It is almost a waking up kind of experience. The pain may overwhelm again and again but the consequences also recur and again become unbearable.
The tragedy is that often when an addict finally sees the consequences in their full impact, shame sets in and suicide is contemplated.
I was advised that it is the "recovering addict" that commits suicide and that is the time when support is most essential. However, that time is very hard to know which is why treatment programs can be so helpful.
"Bottom" to me means that the emotional and psychological pain that the addict is wrestling with finally becomes less than the consequences that s/he is having to cope with. It is almost a waking up kind of experience. The pain may overwhelm again and again but the consequences also recur and again become unbearable.
The tragedy is that often when an addict finally sees the consequences in their full impact, shame sets in and suicide is contemplated.
I was advised that it is the "recovering addict" that commits suicide and that is the time when support is most essential. However, that time is very hard to know which is why treatment programs can be so helpful.
This is very helpful to me. Thank you. My nephew has contemplated suicide, and he's currently with his father, who I believe is doing whatever he can to get him into treatment. I'm hoping for an intervention.
ApatheticNoMore
2-8-12, 12:57pm
I know an addict who continually says they can't get better because they haven't hit bottom (and this despite long periods of recovery). They are forever comparing their "bottom" (hehe :moon:) to the horror stories of other people in recovery. Oh yea AA is full of horror stories, you call that catching a big fish, no *this* is a big fish ... So and so prostituted themselves for drugs, so and so committed armed robbery for drugs, so and so stole from their own momma and grandmamma for drugs ... Yea if bottom is some objective comparative thing, then waiting for bottom is best captured by the play waiting for Godot. But I get what you mean about bottom being an internal experience. Just tired of addicts and their BS!!! I know, I can't really fix them ...
My family is going through something similar with my older sister, who lives on the west coast. She's a hard-core alcoholic, with no end in sight. My parents have spent thousands of dollars for two stints in rehab; she only stayed sober a short time afterwards. She's only alive because her boyfriend keeps saving her---not financially, but physically. He finds her passed out on the floor, at the bottom of the stairs. She's been to the emergency room so many times and has a stack of medical records so huge that they don't want to treat her anymore. He's done more than anyone can for her; we're on the other side of the country (my parents have health issues that would make travel difficult for them). If we did go to her, it wouldn't change anything.
Her biggest problem is that she really doesn't want to stop. Her sponsors have told her she thinks she's smarter than they are, and they've seen hundreds like her. She's been unemployed for years but picks up freelance paralegal work (she's very smart, ambitious and a hard worker, when she's sober), can't pay her bills, owes money to so many people, is in danger of losing her home, etc. We know there's nothing we can do for her and we have to wait until she's hit her bottom. That could be on her deathbed at this point.
The difficult part is just sitting by, supporting her with long telephone conversations when she's sober, and waiting for her to want to stop. For years we had no idea what was going on and my parents would send her money, believing her stories (lies) about why she was short. Last week my mom did use her cc to cover her internet and cell phone bills (so we can still keep tabs on her); we haven't heard from her in days so we're assuming she's drunk again. I told my mom she has to let her suffer the consequences of her actions---spend $ on wine, no $ for bills. My sister also has never had any idea how to live within her means, even when she had a good job. Shops at Whole Foods, gets her nails done, etc.
It's frustrating but after reading so many things written by family members of addicts, I realize that you just have to sit back and wait it out. You can't change them. My poor parents are in their 70s and are stressed out, she's my only sibling and we're close when she's sober. I know alcoholism is genetic---I could have that gene too. I think I've had one drink in my life, and I've an addiction to sweets so I could probably go on the same path.
Pony Mom, I'm so sorry to hear this -- it sounds like my story (with two sisters...one with alcohol, one with heroin). I too am very cautious never to let addiction take hold in me, as my mother too was a substance abuser.
Thanks, puglogic. Why are we the smart ones who never let ourselves get caught up in an addiction in the first place?
It's comforting to know that I'm not alone. The more I talk with other people, the more I find that so many people are in situations like this. And only those people know that you really can't do much to help.
I think I owe my life ---- sad as it is --- to having watched my two older sisters fall. I won't make the same mistakes they did, too much pain. I just wish there had been some easier way for me to learn that lesson.
Redfox, I know you will "lead with love" and do your best. I'm hoping your nephew finds his beacon.
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