Ah, siblings. . .and Facebook.

[Zoebird]

So, it is such a funny thing having siblings. And fwiw, I find this a laughable situation. :D

Well, I only have one. And in my family, she is a bit favored (at least, that's what people tell me and sometimes I see it). And, this little fact comes into play later.

Anyway, my sister and I end up entangled on FB on a regular basis on account of her husband's posts.

Step 1. BIL posts some political thing, with some facts and some misrepresentations.

Step 2. I point out misrepresentations, give facts and sources that are non-partisan.

Step 3. DS asserts "have you even read this law?!"

Step 4. I assert that I have and the link for it. I then also state here are some different criticisms and provide 3-5 different perspectives/interpretations on this law from liberal and conservative sources.

Step 5. BIL asserts that the perspectives I provide are "liberal opinion pieces."

Step 6. I point out which ones are, and which ones aren't. I then also clarify certain aspects of the position wherein BIL's vague descriptions cause confusion.

Step 7. BIL labels this as "semantics."

Step 8. DS comes on and asks a direct question about my POV (which at this point hasn't even been stated).

Step 9. I answer -- as clearly as possible -- my POV. Typically, the question includes something vague on her part. Today it was how COL in NZ is expensive *because of* our health care system. I provided a resource on how COL is determined, what impacts COL, and how those elements are in play in NZ. All of these provided by links.

Step 10. BIL accuses me of going off on diatribes to "win a point" and therefore my posts are "not worth reading," that he hasn't read them, and that he's never going to agree with my opinion.

Step 11. I assert that this makes BIL both willfully ignorant and ill informed on what my opinion is.

Step 12. DS characterizes this interpretation of evidence as an ad hominem fallacy.

Step 13. I demonstrate the difference between the fallacy and a logical interpretation on evidence -- direct admissions from BIL.

I then also assert that BIL should remind me next time that he only wants sycophantic responses to his political posts.

Step 14. BIL says that is not so. He doesn't mind dissenting opinion, he just doesn't like diatribes to "win a point."

Step 15. I assert that I was not attempting to win a point, but rather simply answer DS's direct questions.

Step 16. He tells me to stop responding on the post stream. DS posts right after asserting an issue with my word-counts.

Step 17. I respond on a different, unrelated post (e.g., picture of their kid. he was doing something cute) in a normal, positive way (i.e., "that's so cute!")

Step 18. DS writes another vague comment about "annoying people ruining Facebook, when it's meant to be fun and informative and she just wants to share pictures of her kid."

Step 19. My mother calls me and says I need to stop upsetting my sister. I ask what she's talking about, and apparently my sister called her and said I was being rude and disrespectful to her and her husband.

I ask her how. My mother says that she doesn't know. And I said, then I am probably not being rude and disrespectful. I joke that she doesn't have it on video, and to go ahead and read FB and see for herself. My mother concedes that she doesn't know and doesn't read FB. She'll have my dad read FB and call me back.

Step 20. Dad comments on DS's picture that she posted.

Step 21. Dad calls me and says that I was not being rude, that I was doing what I said, but that BIL and DS are "sensitive people with anxiety issues. You need to be particularly considerate of them so that they don't get too upset. YOu know how it is when they get upset."

Oh good lord. LOL

Really?

I know that I can be a pain in the butt. I get that. And usually step 22 is me going on their FB posts and purposefully teasing/poking them about it -- and saying that I'm doing it on purpose ("I'm not touching you!"). I do this in an attempt to lighten the mood. I doubt it helps. LOL

But what really gets me -- and I mean really gets me -- is when non-factual information is passed on like facts. I'm sorry, but they WERE wrong about this law. And they were mischaracterizing it.

And, they were also wrong in the "benefits of circumcision" article that my sister shared. I posted 20 peer-reviewed articles debunking each "benefit" on the list, which had NO references. I feel particularly passionate on this issue, and they know it. She's also tagged me in that post!

When I'm wrong, people call me out -- friends, my sister, my BIL, my husband, anyone! And when I'm wrong (and it's sourced), I will answer with "thanks for that. I was sure I had this right, but you've really demonstrated that I didn't."

I do not argue semantics, mischaracterize the person, ask them questions, ignore their answers, complain that they answered, and then call mommy! LOL

To help prevent this from happening again, I unsubscribed from their postings. That will be easier. I think.

[razz]

When life is too crazy, opt out if you can and preserve your own peace of mind. You know the old story - change the things that you can and accept those you cannot change, have the wisdom to know the difference.

IMHO, you won't change the family dynamics at this stage so don't try, just find some way of getting through with the least amount of stress for yourself. Find an "adoptive friend family" or two that meets your mutual needs and enjoy them. Sometimes birth families are not that great when you are an adult and can see them with detached objective lenses.

[herbgeek]

You do understand that you are creating this situation also, right? And therefore you have a choice to not participate. People can only push your buttons if you allow them to be pushed.

That said, I do sympathize with annoying siblings. When my sister posts on my wall, it is always an insult of some sort, usually in response to a positive post. I think she's jealous. I believe happiness is a choice. She believes happiness is due to circumstances and that I have better circumstances.

[jania]

I think you made the right decision to finally unsubscribe from their postings.

[creaker]

Life is too short - unless you feel really vested taking on these posts, it's not worth it.

Hopefully they aren't too vested in it. It will be interesting to see how they take it that you are no longer playing your "role".

[IshbelRobertson]

Yet more evidence to prove I am right in choosing NOT to join FB!

[Float On]

I find Facebook to be a great place to say "Hi" and leave it at that. I don't think it's a good place to try and 'discuss' issues. I typically ignore, unsubscribe, or delete anyone that posts things that annoy me. My husband totally gave up facebook because he was spending all his time trying to set the record straight or refute people's uninformed posts. He finally realized 'you can't change people or their thoughts'.
He is happier being off facebook and I'm happier not listening to him rant about someone's stupid post.

[iris lily]

I haven't yet found why Facebook is truely useful. Well, ok--it's useful for updating me in snippets of casual information about club events. We get photos and short announcements about the dog club, that I like.

The rest of it--notices when someone "likes" something etc--good god, that is stupid.

[puglogic]

Zoebird, you have so much wonderful stuff going on in your life -- do you really have time to engage with this? Seems like a lot of time invested in something that yields so little joy.

I think you're wise to just "unsubscribe" unless you really do like arguing. And if you do, I'd humbly suggest you find someone a bit brighter and more interesting to argue with :D

[JaneV2.0]

I'm with Iris Lily. Stupid. I can see some limited utility in Facebook, but mostly it reminds me of high school--and not in a good way. I'd stick with e-mail where your family's concerned. And I'd delete any political ones unanswered.

[redfox]

Good grief! Family dynamics played out in public? FB is equivalent to having a conversation in the corner cafe with everyone listening in. I find it to be a fun & engaging place to banter, share news & cool photos, get community & blog updates, etc., but not to have personal and familial exchanges.

Zoebird, what you described to me is a fascinating series of family triangles. I really recommend the book Extraordinary Relationships, by Dr. Roberta Gilbert. Yes, I recommend this one a lot! She has a very interesting description and explanation about how triangles exist in family systems as a means of managing systemic anxiety. As she says, there is NO judgement about these being right or wrong!

Really, who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant in any given relationship (please remind me of this next time I b*tch about my stepkids' mom!). Staying connected while staying true to oneself is an art... You can have your opinions AND have calm, peaceful family relationships.

[loosechickens]

You really know what needed to be done, and you did it. Just unsubscribe and let it go. They are going to believe what they want to believe, and YOUR need to correct their misinformation is just p*ssing in the wind.

Hey, it's not that I don't understand.....we know an elderly couple in PA who are anxiously exploring options for leaving the country if President Obama is re-elected, because, ya know, he is going to come marching right up there to Tioga and Bradford counties in PA, seize all their guns, force them to become Muslims, require this 68 year old woman to take birth control pills and run right over all the white people while he gives everything to "them minorities".

Is it worthwhile for me to even acknowledge the emails and misinformation they send? Am I likely in any way to change their minds by pointing out that their only income is from Social Security and his recent stroke would have been some kind of a nightmare had he not had Medicare? And that the "libruls" they hate (ignoring the facts that President Obama is far more like an Eisenhower era Republican) are the reason they aren't in some poorhouse right now, penniless and without medical care, because they have nothing BUT Social Security to live on.

Just let it go. You are just waging a "proxy war" (perhaps) with what is probably a lifelong burr under your saddle about triangle of your parents, your sister and her family and their opinions of your own choices.

My sweetie used to "reply all" to those misinformation emails, stating credible sources, pointing out completely false information, citing references, etc., and all it got him were a bunch of nasty emails from people he didn't even know about how "you pinko commies are ruining this country" and worse, and DID have the effect of getting us removed from some peoples' email lists, which was a relief.

Somewhere, somebody is making piles of money spreading fear and misinformation about, and you, nor my sweetie, is going to manage to change one person's mind. So don't even try.

Most of what we do when we have issues with family members is that we are reliving lots and lots of stuff from throughout our lives. If this were some person at your work, you'd just avoid discussing politics with them. Do the same with your DS and BIL. Who cares whether they are misinformed or not? And even if you COULD persuade them that is is drivel and lies, how much of an impact would that make against the avalanche of it in this election year?

Just be grateful that you're there in NZ with great health care and a good life. Let your DS and BIL sink in the morass all by themselves. JMHO.

[Wildflower]

Facebook is so not worth the angst....not to mention the privacy issues, in my opinion.

You are so lucky you don't live anywhere near these people. Truly, you have an out of interacting with them if you really don't want to. Don't join in the dance in the future, and so good that you unsubscribed from their postings.

[Zoebird]

Foremost, FB is a lifeline for me in a lot of ways. It keeps me connected to a lot of friends and family whom i don't normally see, and with whom i can chat if they happen to be online or whatever. So, while it may not seem at all useful to many of you, it is incredibly useful for me. And, we use it in our business a lot as well -- which has worked really well for us. So this is really not about FB per se.

This happened before FB, it would happen after FB. KWIM? It's just how it rolls out.

For me, a lot came out of this. I understand a lot more things now.

I have now gotten the strong impression that our moving here is a Big Problem and Means Lots Of Things that it doesn't mean. And so there's this real . . . anger and resentment around it.

With this, there are just different world-views. And I don't mean politics or whatever. What I mean is a completely different understanding of choice and liberty, and "doing what you want." My sister once said to me "You always get to do whatever you want!" And I asked her "From whom would I be asking permission?"

I watch my sister gild her cage. That's how I perceive it. I think she is very insecure, and only feel secure when she is "right and good." I go against the grain, I never do anything because "that's the way it's done." I might do it after weighing evidence and deciding that it's the best way, but not "just because."

I work really hard for myself and my little family, and we make conscious decisions that rejects a lot of what my more "mainstream" family prefers.

I think that they -- and to the greatest extent my sister -- take my doings as criticism. If I am different, then I think they are wrong, and if I think that, then I also think they are bad. This, of course, is not true. But, I do think it may be true for them (that they foist this judgment on themselves and onto others).

At the end of the day, it's really just about me accepting that I am different -- in pretty much every way -- and to live my life as I see fit. And, while I would like for them (family) to "see" me clearly, I just don't think it's going to happen.

So, I think it's just "ok, DS" or "ok, mom" or "ok, dad" for the most part. Disappointing, though.

[lhamo]

If nothing else comes out of this, at least you have learned one thing -- your family does have some issues related to your choices. In some ways, they may see you moving to NZ as a rejection of them. That may not be factual, but feelings are often stronger than facts, and maintaining relationships long-distance is hard. Transoceanic family relationships are particularly complex, even when the dynamic is healthy in general. We are fortunate enough to be in a position where my DH and I both get enough annual leave and make decent enough salaries that we have been able to travel back to visit my family at least once and often twice a year. But it isn't the same as being close, and both we and my family members know that. In our case, they understand why we are here -- a combination of both professional and personal reasons -- and know that it is in no way related to them. In many ways, we would love to be where they are, but our careers and wanting our kids to grow up knowing/feeling comfortable with both sides of their cultural heritage means that for now we choose to be in China. That may change, and if it does we will have to deal with similar issues on DH's side of the family. But our bicultural background does make it easier to explain in some ways.

In your case I can see how your family might see your choice to move to NZ not so much in the positive terms you focus on (the chance to really build something for yourselves in a way you might never be able to in the US due to the different tax structure, etc) but rather as a rejection of them and their values. This stuff on Facebook just heightens that impression for them, because you clearly DO have different values than they do. It seems to me that with their provocative postings and the response dynamic you have described above, they are looking for "proof" of what they feel (not necessarily correct) -- that your choices are in some way a rejection of them. If they feel you have rejected them, it makes them "right" to be hurt about the fact that you left the US. It's a rather childish reaction, but maybe safer and easier than trying to be an adult about it and recognize that this kind of separation is painful and difficult to manage, but that no one needs to be "right" -- you just have to collectively come to terms with it and develop healthy systems for interacting across distances.

I don't know, it kind of depends on how much effort you want to put into maintaining the relationship, but if I were you I would try to find a way to sit down with them -- face to face is better, but virtually can work too if you are willing to make an effort -- and say "look, we understand our choices are hard for you to accept and that us living overseas makes it more difficult to maintain healthy and intimate relationsips with you, but those choices are related to very practical things beyond the control of any of us and they have turned out well for us so we are going to be staying in NZ. We need you to accept that. We love you and want to stay close and us picking at each other about our very different political views is not helping that, so can we try to develop some different, healthier patterns so that we can still stay in each others lives in spite of the distances."

I hope you can find a way to move in a healthier direction in your relationship with them. It may be a matter of closing off certain topics of discussion for the time being. Otherwise you are just constantly picking at scabs, and things are not going to heal properly. It isn't that you shouldn't be able to engage them on a deeper level about things that are important to you. but the foundation for real exchange and learning isn't there while the emotions are so raw about their feelings (correct or not) that you have abandoned them.

Hope this is helpful feedback. Long, but I thought worth saying since our perspective on this is somewhat different than those who haven't dealt with trans-oceanic family relationships.

lhamo

[Zoebird]

lhamo,

thanks for your insight as another 'transoceanic' family.

I have to say, though, that we HAVE had that conversation in person before we moved and over skype and when my family was here over the holiday. And over facebook, and when we are on the phone. So, it isn't news in and of itself.

For me, the surprise was in how pervasive it is. How a simple conversation about the color of a bedroom wall, or an image from our front window, or something about Dson's kindy, or in this case, a given political situation somehow relates back to this Big Elephant.

But I think that this Big Elephant is the excuse, or the biggest evidence perhaps, for the Underlying Feelings. And, I'm beginning to see how differentiation is appearing as rejection -- or being taken as rejection.

I think the first one that I can remember was religion. I grew up catholic, and have no specific problem with catholicism. BUt, I have decided to not practice catholicism. This wasn't due to hatred, anger, abuse or whatever else. It was quite literally, it just no longer worked for me as a spiritual system. So, I switched spiritual systems.

In my family, this was a big deal. I have "rejected christ" and therefore am "risking going to hell." I"m not at all concerned about this, and I told them so when I was confronted that way. And before we had the baby, there were many conversations on this order. What I began to perceive is the real upset that I was "rejecting them" because my mother -- before my son was born -- would tearfully ask me "but aren't you happy with the way you were raised?"

Yes, I was and am, but that doesn't mean that I have to do things in the same way, or be the same, right?

So, there are many areas where my lifestyle is actively chosen -- not because of hatred or dissatisfaction per se with something else but because it fits in with who I am and how I feel and think about things. Instead of just going with what is, I start to look and see what I want and whether or not it's possible and how and make it happen. I am curious, and I'm seeking always to be authentic and happy.

But this does not assume that staying where you are doesn't make you happy or authentic. I don't assume that another person isn't happy and authentic because they are X or they are not Y. It is simply, and honestly, this is what works for me.

I think that they feel systematically rejected. And this move was just another element of that.

[Amaranth]

When dealing with situations like this--in my case not family, but with some really disfunctional people in other situations, I consider that I would be spending time on something that would have no positive effect--except perhaps in the event that I'm responsible for correcting misinformation in a work situation. In that case, I do spend the time to correct it. Otherwise, I just consider that other people seeing an email or a fb post like this will either see it for what it is and disregard it, or be similarly invested in the delusion and probably unwilling to consider actual facts. People who are actually trying to learn about the situation will note how grossly biased a particular post is and seek out other info for balance.

Then I think about what I could do in service to others with that same amount of time I could have spent in rebuttal to a post. And make plans to do that instead.

Sometimes when I am considering which to do I think about a play I saw once. The main characters spent years writing postcards to dead people. To "mail" the postcards, they threw them out the window. They were quite disappointed that no one ever wrote them back. So I ask myself "If I did X, would it be like writing postcards to dead people and throwing them out the window?" Rembering the visuals from this play gives me some amusement as I choose between the nonproductive and the proactive positive productive response.

[Zoebird]

Funny thing happened today -- we got sorted to pay all of our taxes for here (NZ) and the US. No big deal. No tax to pay in either place; NZ is giving us a refund from the looks of things.

Anyway, end of the day, I post that it's good to work through the taxes in two countries, and some of my NZ friends (some who are kiwi and some who are american and so on) commented. I posted some wiki articles, and a few others posted other articles about tax codes and so on. One person brought up the "cost of living often being blamed on high taxes" but shared this brilliant article about economic development and COL and so on -- in an entirely US focused piece.

So, here we are having a very interesting economics discussion on my FB page with lots of thoughtful links and ideas being shared -- both for and against "Large" government or "socialist" security nets and what not, and comparing all kinds of tax codes and what not. . .and at the end of the day this one thing crops up that asserts that -- per capita and at the median income, NZers pay less than USers in taxes. It didn't include property tax, though. In addition, there was a separate graph about businesses -- and how businesses here pay less in taxes than those in the US, particularly businesses of my size. None of the things that we -- btw -- posted. These were posted by friends of mine.

And then, wouldn't you know, that my accountants both chime in with some really fascinating data about the history of certain laws, and that got us all chatting away about it, right?

And then, my sister writes "you don't have to fake this long conversation to prove your point!"

And I said "oh, yes I did. I had to FAKE this whole conversation to prove my point! LOL" because, it's not like people in the world that I live in would be at all itnerested in this topic since most of us DO pay taxes in two countries, or at least one and have to file in two, or what have you -- and are, you know INTERESTED in economics.

Then, we started comparing the Austrian Economics bit to other theories, and one of my friend's is a professor at the local university, and she tagged her friend -- a professor of economics -- who brought in some great info.

And wouldn't you know my sister and BIL thought that this was. . . you know. . . "all about them!"

Ah well, At least *I* had a good time on face book with *my* friends. :D

[RosieTR]

I think there's a way to put your sis and BIL in a different category and not allow them to see certain posts from you, if you are interested. Or, you can just be amused that it's always "all about them" which was likely the problem to begin with, both IRL and on FB.
FB is like anything else-a tool that can be used for various purposes. For those who live far from family and friends, it's nice to keep updated and see pics and such. Some people will always get upset or whatever, and such is life. I've unsubscribed from a couple of people's posts because it's constantly about stuff I don't really care to get into. Hopefully you unsubscribing will make FB more of what you want, and less of what you don't.

[Zoebird]

I find that I try to keep things basic with me and FB. I've unsubscribed from several people because their parenting focuses on punishment, for example, and it was really distressing for me. I kept my sister on -- even though she was doing all kinds of things to her kid that I think is not cool -- because I like my sister and pictures of the kid. And I would not comment on those things, ever.

I am also on with a lot of other "hippies" like myself who parent in this 'other way' and so I pass along articles that I get, often tagging specific moms as in "weren't we talking about this the other day? I thought this article was helpful." And usually DS would get upset about that, too, as if I was calling her out.

Ah well. Such is life.