View Full Version : A continuing train wreck
Some of you might remember me posting right after Christmas about the fiancee of a good friend's son and her behavior on Christmas.
I've come to the conclusion she is a very self-centered, self-absorbed young woman.
Wednesday morning, I was at the funeral of the mother of a very good mutual friend. I knew the mutual friend's mother, as well as father and siblings. It was at a different parish, but since family members of the deceased were the majority of that choir, my choir was asked to sing. Singers from other parishes came and assisted as well.
Right before funeral starts in the church, my son's friend arrives with his fiancee in tow. Why she came, I'm not quite sure, but that's irrelevant (she didn't know the deceased and barely knew the deceased's son). We had a choir of 20 squished into an area meant for half that number. Friend's son takes a spot, and his fiancee tries to squeeze her way in to stand next to him. He shakes his head, and she begins to throw a very public, beginning to be a very noisy, hissy fit. It was most definitely a temper tantrum. He told fiancee to go sit in a pew. She didn't want to. He pointed her to a back pew, no more than six feet away, but she didn't want to go. Fortunately, the funeral began then, and our singing drowned out whatever she was going to say. She eventually went into the pew.
While leaving the gravesite at the cemetary, I walked by them and said hello. He said hello and we chatted a bit, but his fiancee was clearly in a mood and grunted at me before turning her back. Another friend pulled me aside to talk when I was done talking to the my friend's son, but I saw his fiancee turn her back on every single person who happened to even say hello to them.
Someone needs to take this young woman aside and teach her something about being civil and polite, and the conventional way to behave in common situations - funerals, for example. I've talked about this at the old forum, but I'm not sure when the idea popped up that it doesn't matter what you wear to a funeral, as long as it's black. This young woman was dressed in a very tight, very low cut black top (showing multiple tattoos), with "artistically" ragged black pants over black tights or leggings, with coming apart at the seams black shoes. I've seen her in clothes that were a bit more conservative and not raggy (they just weren't black). My friend's son was dressed in a very nice dark suit with a dress shirt (no tie, but who cares). The contrast between the two halves of this couple was extraordinary.
I feel very sorry for my friend, as family events are possibly going to be strained unless this young woman learns some better manners. It's somewhat amusing, but my friend's mother-in-law, who has mild dementia (but is still brought to church most Sundays) has been heard by at least me muttering comments under her breath that aren't complimentary about her future granddaughter-in-law.
Thankfully, I won't be able to attend the wedding! My friend said I would be invited, but I've got another friend's wedding the same day in a totally opposite direction that I'm doing some photography for! I'll not send a gift either, as this bride has made her disdain for friends of her fiancee's family very clear.
Did I read that right? Friend's son was singing in the choir and his fiancee wanted to stand next to him in the choir? Assuming that she is not a choir member?
Did I read that right? Friend's son was singing in the choir and his fiancee wanted to stand next to him in the choir? Assuming that she is not a choir member?
Yes, that is correct. She isn't a choir member at all. She somehow couldn't bear to sit by herself for an hour service.
And even if she had been singing, she would have had to be among the women singers, either altos or sopranos, not mixed in amongst the men.
Well that's a new one. I've been in choirs since before you were born (I think) and have never heard anyone doing or wanting to do anything like that.
flowerseverywhere
3-9-12, 4:24pm
I am sure your heart is telling you that this young man will eventually end this relationship because she will drive a wedge between him and his family, church, friends and job. It is inevitable.
since the mom is your good friend she probably needs you more than ever, and not as a sounding board to bitch about this unfortunate young lady. Perhaps spending some time with her, it can be with a church activity or something you both need to do anyway ( cooking, food shopping) or going for a walk and focusing the conversation on all the good things happening in your life and encouraging her to focus on those things in her life that are good.
Actually, the mom (my friend) is saying very, very little about the entire situation. She will occasionally mention how things are going with the wedding plans, but that is it.
And yes, I do provide support to her and we do things together.
This young lady just sounds very immature, not mature enough to get married.
She also sounds extremely insecure and needy. Poor her, poor fellow, and poor you for having to witness all that nonsense!
rodeosweetheart
3-10-12, 4:33pm
I guess I'm in the minority, \as I cannot understand why there is all this condemnation of this girl. It seems she went to the funeral to support her fiance and thought she would sit with him, but he decided to sing with the choir instead and put her in a pew. If I were the girl, I would feel left out. It is obvious that his family and friends and now church dislike her and don't want her there and criticize her. So I would feel hurt, I guess, if I were her.
Maybe this is a God-sent chance to love one's enemies, and for the church to welcome her and try to repay her faults (in dress? in comportment?) :)with kindness and love, as Jesus tells us to do?
This marriage does not seem to be getting any support from his family or the church, so yes, it probably will fail before it begins, as no doubt, she can tell that she is unwelcome. I don't understand, I guess, the situation, so forgive me for not
"getting" it.
My husband is a choir director, so I have some years of experience with church choirs, too. So if I am not getting this situation, it is not through lack of familiarity with church choirs and how they feel/act/perform/express the love of God.
Personally, I think it would be very Christian of all involved to back off and give this couple some space and pray that all turns out for them, together or apart.
I guess I'm in the minority, \as I cannot understand why there is all this condemnation of this girl. It seems she went to the funeral to support her fiance and thought she would sit with him, but he decided to sing with the choir instead and put her in a pew. If I were the girl, I would feel left out. It is obvious that his family and friends and now church dislike her and don't want her there and criticize her. So I would feel hurt, I guess, if I were her.
Maybe this is a God-sent chance to love one's enemies, and for the church to welcome her and try to repay her faults (in dress? in comportment?) :)with kindness and love, as Jesus tells us to do?
This marriage does not seem to be getting any support from his family or the church, so yes, it probably will fail before it begins, as no doubt, she can tell that she is unwelcome. I don't understand, I guess, the situation, so forgive me for not
"getting" it.
My husband is a choir director, so I have some years of experience with church choirs, too. So if I am not getting this situation, it is not through lack of familiarity with church choirs and how they feel/act/perform/express the love of God.
Personally, I think it would be very Christian of all involved to back off and give this couple some space and pray that all turns out for them, together or apart.
I've been feeling some similar sentiments, though from a much more humanistic angle. Somewhat along the lines of 'sheesh, what's with all the intense scrutiny & harsh judgements?'
I guess I'm in the minority, \as I cannot understand why there is all this condemnation of this girl. It seems she went to the funeral to support her fiance and thought she would sit with him, but he decided to sing with the choir instead and put her in a pew. If I were the girl, I would feel left out. It is obvious that his family and friends and now church dislike her and don't want her there and criticize her. So I would feel hurt, I guess, if I were her.
Maybe this is a God-sent chance to love one's enemies, and for the church to welcome her and try to repay her faults (in dress? in comportment?) :)with kindness and love, as Jesus tells us to do?
This marriage does not seem to be getting any support from his family or the church, so yes, it probably will fail before it begins, as no doubt, she can tell that she is unwelcome. I don't understand, I guess, the situation, so forgive me for not
"getting" it.
My husband is a choir director, so I have some years of experience with church choirs, too. So if I am not getting this situation, it is not through lack of familiarity with church choirs and how they feel/act/perform/express the love of God.
Personally, I think it would be very Christian of all involved to back off and give this couple some space and pray that all turns out for them, together or apart.
First of all, it wasn't "sit with the choir" - it was stand and we were already squished - 20 people in space made for 10. The guy was there to sing. We sing the entire service. It's not stand up for a hymn, sit down for 10 minutes, do another hymn. I don't know about your choirs, but ours do not have vistor's corners. You either sing or you're not with the choir. Period.
They go to a different parish since he decided he wanted to go to one where they didn't know his family, so he could "make his own place." I don't know how she is with the people at "their" parish, as I only know what I see. This was the first time I'd seen them since Christmas. The girl decides to grunt and turn her back on people as soon as they say hello? There were people she'd never met before, as the guy would try to introduce her and she would still turn her back. Heck, I tried to attempt to be kind, by saying hello at the cemetery, and she still chose to turn her back. All the friendliness in the world on the part of people isn't going to make a danged difference if she literally turns her back on them. She was on "neutral" turf for the funeral and the graveside service. Not his parents' parish, not their parish. People from all over the area. A few of the choir members she chose to throw a temper tantrum in front of belong to "their" parish.
"Not supporting the marriage?" Well, gee, if she's extremely rude to virtually everyone, acts like a jerk, throws public temper tantrums, why WOULD we want to support it?
Whenever I have seen her, the few times she visited my parish (where his parents attend), or at Christmas dinner at his parents, or at this funeral, she has acted like a jerk. She doesn't exactly recommend herself to people.
She makes for great people watching, gotta give her that.
rodeosweetheart
3-10-12, 6:34pm
You are right, I am not used to choirs where you have to stand for the whole service; I could not do it! And it must have been extremely crowded for the funeral.
It sounds like she is pretty unhappy, and it also sounds like they might not end up getting married, as things don't seem too good there. So I can see why you would not want to support the marriage, as there is no marriage, as yet. On the other hand, if they get married, then you gotta respect that, at least the way I interpret church teachings. (Let no man put asunder, etc.)
And I apologize as I sound kind of preachy here. Not cool.
I remember when I was in high school and dating what turned out to be my first husband. He said something to me one time that his mother thought I was being snotty because I didn't say hello. I was just really, really shy and uncomfortable in a new situation.
It does sound like she is going well, beyond shyness into brattiness but maybe there is a rebellion because she really doesn't know how to act in these situations.
I think the 'harsh judgments' come from the assumptive process.
For example, I assume that she knew that her partner would be singing with (and therefore sitting with) the choir before they arrived, and that she would not be sitting with the choir because 'everyone' knows that custom.
That being said, I've been the 'rude' person who didn't understand a family's customs, and i've been at that same table with other people whose customs I found rude, and who were not from that family whose customs were rude to both me and the rest of that family.
I remember, for example, a grown man having an absolute hissy fit about a mushroom in his lasagna. we had no knowledge that he didn't like mushrooms (and i asked!). I thought the hissy was rude, but I could understand his frustration.
I also do have to say that a lot of people do not have comportment training and basic manners and etiquette.
I have several friends whom I have taught knife and fork skills because they come from less parented backgrounds than I have. And, I've taken several courses myself (the first being at age 12, the last was taken 5 or 6 years ago).
Turns out there are lots of shifting values in regards to manners.
I remember when I was in high school and dating what turned out to be my first husband. He said something to me one time that his mother thought I was being snotty because I didn't say hello. I was just really, really shy and uncomfortable in a new situation.
It does sound like she is going well, beyond shyness into brattiness but maybe there is a rebellion because she really doesn't know how to act in these situations.
shy, uncomfortable, brattiness, slight rebellion, doesn't know how to act--all of these are a normal part of growing up. I think the OP expects an almost-married woman to be beyond these growing pains. Me, I wish no one would get married until they were at least 30. :) When I am Queen I will make that law.
rodeosweetheart
3-10-12, 7:39pm
Zoe, that's a really good point about shifting values in manners as well as differences in families and cultures and manners! Sometimes, it is the little folkways between families that can destroy marriages, as the partners come from such different places, and never figure that out.
I like the concept of the "assumptive process." So true.
Anyone who feels the sting of wholesale rejection will be hardpressed to be at their best, especially a young adult. Framing is everything. Tradd, have you considerd dropping all of your assumptions & biases about this young woman and simply opening your heart to her no matter what?
I am frequently challenged by those who trigger my beliefs about what is right and wrong... and I close down my kind, compassionate side, which we all have. I can also feel judgements and critisicm coming my way when someone disapproves of me, and it shuts me down pretty quickly.
No blame here, but my desire is to challenge your stance, and to consider bringing forth the kindness you've shown us all so many times here, for this young woman, as simply a human being doing her best under difficult circumstances.
I don't know. she seemed kind (but shocked) by the young woman at dinner, and then at the funeral went out of her way to say hello to the young woman and was rejected.
So, i would say Tradd's kept right on trying. :D
The question is, how many times do we need to try?
I remember, too, a friend of mine saying that she hated to go to X place because "everyone there hated her!" I'd been invited there, and asked her to come along (or invited her), and she said that she would "even though it's going to be terrible because everyone hates me there!"
Well, we go to this place, and everyone seems really nice and open. Sure, I was the new person, so no one was particularly "warm" -- but everyone was nice and polite.
My friend just had a rain cloud over her head and took everyone's politeness as personal, deep rejection of who she was as a person. The first person said "hi! just the two of you in your group?" and I said "yes, just us." and gave our names. My friend complained "oh, just the two of us, obviously we are awful people because we didn't bring MORE friends." I didn't see it that way at all. it was literally just checking how many people because they had a limit of how many people could fit in the room.
Then, we went and put our shoes in the right place, and a woman was there and said "is this your first time here?" and I said "yes, but my friend has been before." And she says "oh, that's all good. let me put you up near the front!" And so we were put over in the front row. She then gave me a run down of where the toilets were, where to get water/tea, and what the basic 'rules' were for the duration of the event.
My friend saw this as "chastising and infantilizing" us. We could have found our own seat, figured out where the toilets were, and of course we weren't so ignorant and rude as to not behave properly during the event! I saw it more as being helpful, not making assumption about what we know or don't know about the event, and providing us with great seats! (I would have, respectfully, been near the back, you know? but she wanted us to get "the full experience" as it were.)
later, during the break, a lot of people were chatting and asking us what we thought of it, if we were enjoying ourselves, if we had any questions. It was very pleasant. My friend saw this as "interrogating us" and trying to determine if we were "worthy" to be in their "club."
At the end of the night, I'd made a connection with several people with whom I later became friends. My friend couldn't figure out why I would hang out with such "arrogant posers." And i told her "well, I have practice." LOL Point taken, you know?
Anyway, it's often about POV.
This young woman may assume that people don't respect her, care about her, like her, or accept her. She may take even the most friendly and nice gestures as treating her poorly in some way.
Weird, but true.
Aqua Blue
3-10-12, 10:52pm
I've been feeling some similar sentiments, though from a much more humanistic angle. Somewhat along the lines of 'sheesh, what's with all the intense scrutiny & harsh judgements?'
Reminds me of a comment I once heard, church is where they circle the wagons when someone is in trouble and shoot inward.
Anyone who feels the sting of wholesale rejection will be hardpressed to be at their best, especially a young adult. Framing is everything. Tradd, have you considerd dropping all of your assumptions & biases about this young woman and simply opening your heart to her no matter what?
I am frequently challenged by those who trigger my beliefs about what is right and wrong... and I close down my kind, compassionate side, which we all have. I can also feel judgements and critisicm coming my way when someone disapproves of me, and it shuts me down pretty quickly.
No blame here, but my desire is to challenge your stance, and to consider bringing forth the kindness you've shown us all so many times here, for this young woman, as simply a human being doing her best under difficult circumstances.
I HAVE been kind to this girl. What's going on in my brain doesn't show. She apparently doesn't want kindness from ANYONE. I've no other explanation for her turning her back when her fiance was introducing new people to her, someone she had NEVER met before.
With me, you have my respect until you have done something to damage that respect. That is all she has done from day one. With her throwing the temper tantrum at the funeral was pretty much "it." She has made it pretty abundantly clear she doesn't respect others. Who the heck throws a public temper tantrum because she can't stand beside her fiance who is singing at a funeral? Her NOT being able to stand by him when he's in choir is nothing new. Happens at their parish and when they've visited mine. If she wants to be in the background and not have people pay attention to her, well, then she shouldn't draw attention to herself by her actions, which she does abundantly.
Fortunately, I rarely see her. There was a woman who acted similarly at my last parish. I was friendly, would say hello, ask how she was doing, and for whatever reason, she wouldn't respond at all. After weeks of trying, I said the heck with it. She then complained to a few people I was rude to her. However, they had seen how she didn't respond to my friendly overtures, and just ignored her griping.
And as Zoebird wrote, how many times do we need to try?
Frankly, she's only interesting to me because watching her is like watching a bad car crash - you can't help but pay attention.
Maybe you should just let it go, judging people at church just seems wrong to me.
chrisgermany
3-19-12, 5:19am
You wrote around christmas:
"All black clothes, hair dyed jet black, heavy makeup with thick black eyeliner, tattoos in very visible places, facial piercings. "
She might be haunted by some ghosts of her own and uses aggression against everybody as her defence.
Some negative attention seeking might be involved, too.
You wrote around christmas:
"All black clothes, hair dyed jet black, heavy makeup with thick black eyeliner, tattoos in very visible places, facial piercings. "
She might be haunted by some ghosts of her own and uses aggression against everybody as her defence.
Some negative attention seeking might be involved, too.
This might be true. There was a young man at my daughters high school who was very goth. KISS type hair and clothes, makeup, big scary kind of look. My daughter made friends with him in class and turns out he was a very nice gentle fellow, but with a stuttering problem. I think he used the scary look so people wouldn't approach him and talk to him. It kept everyone at 2 arms length.
I'm not saying this is this girls problem, but maybe there is something she doesn't want anyone to 'see' about her. Maybe in a private moment say to the boy, 'gee we really wish we could get to know ------ better, but she doesn't really seem to want to get to know us.' Maybe he could give you some insight.
But if not, give it up. Some people just aren't friendly, or nice. They just aren't. Or they find offense in every word, no matter what you say.
People with trauma in their past often can't deal with similar situations again. I'm wondering about church people or authority figures who have abused this girl in the past. Remember ... The church, according to its founder, is a hospital for the sick. Sick people shouldn't be expected to fit in like someone who is already healed. Grace can cover all of this ...
You wrote around christmas:
"All black clothes, hair dyed jet black, heavy makeup with thick black eyeliner, tattoos in very visible places, facial piercings. "
Some people find this look very sexy, too.
jennipurrr
3-19-12, 12:26pm
I am not excusing the behavior of the young woman as the hissy fit seems completely out of line.
But, I did want to mention a time...I was 19 or so and I had been dating a guy for 2 years. His grandfather died and I went to the funeral with him, both because it was the expected thing and he wanted me there. I didn't know his grandfather, he was very old at the time and in poor health...I had seen him once maybe. I am at the funeral and there was a family section. BFs mother told me I would have to sit elsewhere. Technically, sure I wasn't part of the family, but there I was fairly young, had been to very few funerals and I had to go sit by myself in a huge church, plus I am naturally shy and introverted. I didn't really know anyone else to sit with...it wasn't like our mutual friends were there...everyone I knew was in the family section. I really did almost just leave I was that uncomfortable. At this point in my life I would have been ok, but at time it was a horrible experience. If it had been my fiance I may have demanded to sit together. Of course this is a different situation than sitting with a choir, but I can recall the whole uncomfortableness even now.
I am not excusing the behavior of the young woman as the hissy fit seems completely out of line.
But, I did want to mention a time...I was 19 or so and I had been dating a guy for 2 years. His grandfather died and I went to the funeral with him, both because it was the expected thing and he wanted me there. I didn't know his grandfather, he was very old at the time and in poor health...I had seen him once maybe. I am at the funeral and there was a family section. BFs mother told me I would have to sit elsewhere.
Ugh- the mother's behavior was atrocious. You were your BF's companion (not to mention dating him for 2 years). It shouldn't matter if it was your first date.
Well, the deed has been done. The groom's mom quietly told a few of us close friends that the son and the fiancee got married in a civil ceremony sometime within the past month, and asked us to keep it quiet, which we did. Who knows why? Financial, health insurance, pregnancy? Doesn't matter. The couple is still "officially" just engaged. But the friend's son is letting the cat out of the bag himself, as when people asked him on Easter (they were both there) where he had been lately, he replied he'd been going to "his wife's church." It's sad to see for my friends, but the now-DIL was throwing a hissy fit on Easter and acting like a total witch (they came to services with his family). When they were sitting in church before the service began, she was loudly going on and on. It was cringe-inducing to listen to, even if you didn't know them.
It's amazing what a difference the somewhat rough-looking girl having manners can make. Other friends had me over for Easter dinner. One of their college-age sons has a GF who looks very much like the other friend's DIL, down to black-dyed hair, too much makeup and cleavage. However, this girl has much better manners, doesn't complain about the food at all, helped in the kitchen and setting up dining room. When I discovered she liked reading a certain genre of books I also enjoy, we traded favorite authors and I suggested some she'd not read but might enjoy. She might still have some rough spots, but all in all, a much more pleasant young woman than the other friend's DIL, and I actually enjoyed talking to this young lady about books. She even showed good sense in that she's having some tattoos removed from her hands that she got when she was 16. She's realized they cannot be covered up by clothes, and that they would cause her problems in the adult work world, especially in the conservative field she has chosen.
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