When does noticing/observing turn into judgment? [Archive]

herbgeek

3-11-12, 10:32am

I've been thinking about this since the thread about someone observing a mom and child out together, where the mother was paying attention to her smart phone in lieu of the child. It seemed to me to start off as an observation, but then other posters said the OP was being judgmental.

As humans, we often categorize experiences/behaviors into buckets to help us make some sense of the world and feel a sense of control. We connect the dots and create patterns to help us predict the future in at least some small way.

When is this good? When is this bad? Where does noticing a pattern cross the line into "judging" someone? I've noticed on some threads where a poster will, what seems to me to have a whole host of assumptions on someone's intent, and not get challenged, and yet on other threads where the OP seems to just be relating their observations, they get jumped on for being judgmental. Does it depend on the topic? Is parenting a particular sensitive topic? Are there others that can be as inflammatory?

I ask as someone who is often genuinely surprised at some of the reactions I see. I would like to understand better.

pinkytoe

3-11-12, 11:25am

The fact that folks thought I was being judgemental in my op has had me thinking about a lot of situations since. I don't apologize though about the stories in my head because I think that humans have probably been making assumptions about other people's behavior since the beginning of time. Sometimes as a matter of survival. To assume that a human can be completely non-judgemental is a fallacy IMO. I mean don't we all do it every day of our lives when trying to size up situations? Topics like parenting (or lack of) do seem to rile up certain people more. I don't know why. We all have pressure points depending on our life experiences.

ctg492

3-11-12, 11:26am

Parenting and money are the two topics that I see as sensitive topics to many. Since I almost never speak of politics, I do not venture into that area, but am sure politics and religion are two more very sensitive topics. I suppose it is because we have generally very set thoughts on these and are not always open to others ideas, even though I know I learn from others.

leslieann

3-11-12, 11:42am

I took a course based on mindfulness-based stress reduction, basically following Jon Kabat-Zinn's model in Full Catastrophe Living. Anyway, an exercise for one week was to notice and write down events that you experienced as pleasant. The next week, notice and note those that you considered unpleasant. I thought that the lesson was that we noticed more of what we were looking for (and that was certainly true in my experience) but no, the lesson was to notice that we seem to be always and perpetually filtering everything through the Good/Bad dichotomy. I agree, pinkytoe, that this filter has an evolutionary basis, supporting survival. However, I have also noticed that when I get caught up in the stories that go with my nearly-automatic filtering of good/bad, pleasant/unpleasant, okay/not-okay, then I can easily end up in judgment that uses up a whole pile of my energy. As long as I can stay aware of the stories in my head (and aware that that is what they are) then I don't get bound up in my judgments and I still have freedom to think, to feel and to act without those constraints. For example, I can be pleasant to the mother with the smartphone because I haven't already made some decision about her parenting. If that makes sense.

T'ain't easy, though, because we humans do seem to be predisposed to sort information on those kinds of variables. And it probably doesn't matter too much what goes on in a person's head until it affects how they are feeling and thus how they behave....or I could be totally out to lunch here...maybe our thoughts ALWAYS affect our feelings and behaviour...that's what the cognitive therapy folks would have us believe. But I guess that's another story too.

I used to teach child psych. One of the assignments was to do a public observation of parent-child interaction, at the mall or a fast food place or a park. The biggest challenge of the entire assignment was for students to separate the observation of behavior from their interpretation of the MEANING of the behaviour. It was actually a great exercise. Most of them had never even considered that what you see and what you think about what you see could be separated. We all, students and prof, learned a lot from those papers.

And even with all that, I agree too that parenting and politics do tend to polarize people even here on these boards. And salad spinners do too. Well, sometimes.

Stella

3-11-12, 11:42am

I think it's somewhat in the wording. IIRC the OP in the thread you mentioned said something like, "obviously the child was used to being ignored" or something like that. If it were worded, "I wondered if the child was used to this" I would be less inclined to think it was judgemental. The first statement has made a definitive judgement based on a very small snippet of someone's life. The second statement is an observation followed by a comment on how you percieve it, but it still acknowledges that you really don't know the whole story.

I think for me it boils down to a spirit of charity versus condemnation.

Stella

3-11-12, 11:43am

And salad spinners. Well, sometimes.

:)

ctg492

3-11-12, 11:49am

Rice cookers on another board get way to many heated opinion responses>8)

mira

3-11-12, 11:54am

I think we all judge people, but the crucial step is whether or not we are mindful enough to turn our initial thoughts into compassionate ones, which ultimately leads us to judge less harshly or not at all.

For example, the other day I saw a mother giving her young child (12-14 months?) a bottle of soda to drink. My initial reaction is "What an unhealthy thing to do - the kid's teeth are going to rot and he's going to develop a really awful affinity for sugar-filled drinks." But then I thought - how do I know this is something the mother does regularly? And even if it is, this might be common practice in that mother's particular segment of society and she's in no way trying to harm her child, but just give him something he likes. Then I go on to think about how difficult it must be to try and refuse children the things they like etc etc.

If you bring it down to a more objective level and try to understand from a 'human' perspective, it's easy to get rid of that "holier than thou" attitude. I must say though, I'm definitely not always mindful enough to take this approach and I know I do still pass judgment on others' behaviour at times. I think the key point is how we react to the snap judgments we make, and if we actually think them through.

peggy

3-11-12, 11:55am

True enough we all make judgements everyday. It's how we survive really. And really, when people don't make those judgements, we mostly criticize that! Think about it. Don't we all know someone who seems to always hang out with the wrong people? Or who seem to choose to date the wrong person? We all know someone who seems blind to other's obvious failings. And we shake our heads.
I think the parenting thing is maybe a case of a little too close to home. I readily admit I didn't always focus on my kids. Plenty of times I asked them to just hush or go out and play or whatever and just give me a few minutes to myself. And I'm sure someone somewhere saw me and thought what a terrible parent I was. But it doesn't bother me That someone would think that. I know what kind of parent I was and I know how my kids have grown and what kind of wonderful relationship i have with my grown kids. But maybe some get a little testy cause they are feeling guilty as they sometimes see themselves there. Even though they may be really good parents. The mother checking her phone is an incident so many of us can relate to.
I think it's also perspective. To the working outside the home mother, the few precious minutes at the restaurant were wasted on the phone. To the home all day mom, those minutes were the few precious moments AWAY from the kid!:~)

iris lily

3-11-12, 12:12pm

"Stories in my head" is really what it's about, isn't it? We are funny creatures.

Last night my friend who lives 5 doors down the street was talking about our mutual neighbor. There is a woman who comes and goes there. We had entirely different interpretations of what was going on: I thought that the woman was young and was the girlfriend of the son who lives in that household. My neighbor thought that the woman in question was older and was a CARETAKER of the son. She thinks that the son is in drug rehab. I don't dispute that, but mainly I think he's not working and is living off of his mother and has a girlfriend who pays visits now and then.

The point of my post iis ? ? ? haha except to say that we all interpret situations differently. The problem comes when we ascribe "facts" to what are really only our own interpretations. It's like leslieann said, people need to learn to be objective, to understand that our interpretation may or may not be true, it's OUR INTERPRETATION.

I fight this at work all the time. I had an employee for years who without fail presented her opinion as "fact." She has just retired. What a relief it is to not have to battle through her communications any more to separate fact from opinion. I think about 50% of what employees at work bring to my desk as fact is not, in reality, fact. While 50% may seem like an exaggeration, by the time I factor in out-of context information, touching one side of the elephant, etc--I sift thru a lot of stuff to get to the facts.

Now that's not to say that sometimes I DO want opinion, I'd just like to be able to identify which is which.

pinkytoe

3-11-12, 12:23pm

JaneV2.0

3-11-12, 12:26pm

What gets my back up is when someone reports their "ain't it awful" scenario about someone else and then tries to drum up support for wholesale condemnation of said person. The "mean girls" gambit. Yeah, we all judge, and in some situations that may be appropriate or helpful, but for the most part we should probably concentrate on our own flaws and stifle our tendencies to puff ourselves up at others' expense.

fidgiegirl

3-11-12, 12:34pm

I am really happy you started this thread, herbgeek, because this has been weighing on me lately. There have been at least 2 threads lately where I felt that big time judging was going on and it made me a) very reluctant to participate in the thread and b) sad to even come around the boards. Technology seems to be another hot-button, and maybe because it really boils down to money. And since I like and have technology, then I feel attacked.

Where I'm having the most trouble in my personal mind is avoiding judging those who I perceive to be judging. Probably makes no sense . . . to give an example, my SiL was expositing at length on her opinion of her own SiL's (on the other side of the family) divorce from her BiL. Going on and on. Certainly no one but the couple involved truly knows the dynamic that led up to the divorce. Anyway, I made some comment about, well, we can't judge what's happening. And she was like, I'm not judging, I'm "just saying." And she truly believed that; she truly did not see how what she was saying was judging, even though it was sentences like "she should have . . . " And so I need to try to have some compassion for my own SiL that she is hurt by the ending of this relationship, too, even though she's not in it, and that her method of coping is to talk even though she has no intimate knowledge of the whole situation.

I have a tremendous fear of BEING judged. It causes me a lot of anxiety at times, if I perceive that someone has misunderstood my position or intentions or even the quality of my personality or self, etc. Wonder if this comes from growing up in a small town where I heard and, sadly, participated in lots and lots of undeserved (or at least uninformed) and malicious gossip. I now think everyone does that, when that's probably not the case.

And then there's the whole "who gives a sh**" factor. The older I get, the more I detest having conversations about trivial things that have no impact on my own life or the other person's life, the future of the world, etc. Being upset about situations involving strangers, customer service interactions that one recounts ceaselessly, puzzling over why a person would do this or do that?, being disgusted at how dirty someone's house was that you visited 10 years ago . . . I am mainly thinking of some members of my family who get into this type of reflection, and I see no point whatsoever - mostly just an opportunity to judge. Sure, if one sees that situation with a stranger, thinks about it, and uses it to change some aspect of one's own behavior that's been bothering them, great. If someone has a crappy time at a dirty house and that makes them keep their house cleaner for their guests, fantastic. If they decide to boycott a business that treats them poorly, well, then, that's the consequence. But to just go on and on about it and hold on to it for years and keep bringing it up over and over? That just feeds the my own misplaced anxiety, and then I just start to place distance between myself and that person, knowing that I could just as easily be the subject of judgement next time.

And then you add in the fact that I'm a human being and do my own judging sometimes, as we all do, and then I feel bad that I'm judging when I get so mad about others judging! Oh geez! I need to go the course that leslieann did!

Haha, you can tell that my beef with judgement goes deeper than just the little bit that's been surfacing on the boards . . . I tell ya, sometimes this place is as good as therapy :)

JaneV2.0

3-11-12, 12:59pm

I think for me it boils down to a spirit of charity versus condemnation.
As I said, our experiences color our perceptions. As a child who spent many hours alone fending for myself, I felt for the little girl. The situation made me feel as I did as a child - neglected. And so I made that judgement recalliing all the lost opportunities on both sides.

I spent a lot of time as a child lost in my own pursuits--reading, drawing, and exploring nature, so sitting companionably with my mother thinking my own thoughts wouldn't have bothered me for a minute. Maybe both of them are introverts, and comfortable within themselves.

Mrs-M

3-11-12, 3:01pm

IMO, Pinkytoe's observation of the situation she witnessed, the one that prompted her to start the thread she did, is a totally natural and justified response to such a happening. (My reaction and opinion would have been the exact same).

Re: the question, "When does noticing/observing turn into judgment"? When intrusiveness is applied, and then, over and above the act of simply noticing/observing, a derogatory comment is made to the person (or situation related to), then IMO that is judgmental.

Are we not entitled to express our thoughts and views behind the scenes?

We all notice/observe every single day, but passing judgment verbally related to such (on a personal level), directly at the individual involved, is where I draw the line on acceptable versus unacceptable, however, simply airing ones thoughts relative to a circumstance or happening (outside of), I see nothing wrong with that.

Anne Lee

3-11-12, 3:09pm

We make judgements on more than just what we consciously notice. There's a lot of stuff that we process but couldn't put our finger on it. Obviously, something in the original scenario touched the OP and perhaps wasn't even included in the original post. More than once I've read a post, commented on it, only to have additional info come to light later which alters my original perception.

redfox

3-11-12, 3:34pm

Check out this tool for a perspecetive on your question, herbgeek:

http://www.systems-thinking.org/loi/loi.htm

Tradd

3-11-12, 3:44pm

I have a long-standing habit of people watching. Couple that with being an overly observant sort, and I tend to notice stuff other people miss. I also have a memory like an elephant's. Put those all together, and it's shouldn't be a surprise to people that I notice what other people do habitually and can see behavior patterns. Like one woman at work, who is in her late 50s. I would pass by her desk in the afternoon and I would see her sitting with her head on her chest, dozed off. I would shake her awake, as I didn't want her to get caught - a bunch of national level people are in offices on our floor and will sometimes walk down that cubicle aisle to see a manager. But it kept happening every day, so I finally had to go to my manager, as we were having to pick up slack from the sleeping woman.

We all make judgments about people. Those who say they don't judge people are fooling themselves. If you're walking to your car in a dark parking lot and you notice someone suspicious looking following you, are you going to walk slowly to your car? Or are you going to walk faster or go back inside?

Some also seem to be unable to separate having THOUGHTS about a person/situation and NOT acting on them vs. having thoughts AND acting on them (saying things to person/people involved in situation). But there comes a point when after observing a certain behavior pattern, you may make a choice whether or not to continue interactions with that person without revealing the reason why. It can be someone who is perpetually late or someone who is habitually rude to everyone. We all have a different tolerance/annoyance threshold, and while others might let a situation go much longer before coming to a decision, others don't.

redfox

3-11-12, 5:15pm

I took a course based on mindfulness-based stress reduction, basically following Jon Kabat-Zinn's model in Full Catastrophe Living. Anyway, an exercise for one week was to notice and write down events that you experienced as pleasant. The next week, notice and note those that you considered unpleasant. I thought that the lesson was that we noticed more of what we were looking for (and that was certainly true in my experience) but no, the lesson was to notice that we seem to be always and perpetually filtering everything through the Good/Bad dichotomy. I agree, pinkytoe, that this filter has an evolutionary basis, supporting survival. However, I have also noticed that when I get caught up in the stories that go with my nearly-automatic filtering of good/bad, pleasant/unpleasant, okay/not-okay, then I can easily end up in judgment that uses up a whole pile of my energy. As long as I can stay aware of the stories in my head (and aware that that is what they are) then I don't get bound up in my judgments and I still have freedom to think, to feel and to act without those constraints.

Humberto Maturana, an epistimologist whose works I read in grad school, has a very interesting exercise:

Think of a situation in which you reacted strongly. Did you like or dislike the situation? Then, think of this... Do you like or dislike your liking or disliking of the situation? When one understands this, one is free.

It took me some time to get this. Here's what it means to me... This exercise is asking me to examine my so-called automatic reactions to circumstances, and my unconcious attachments to those reactions.

For instance: I dislike it when my stepkids' mom says disrespectful things about me; I feel attacked & victimized. Then, do I dislike or like that disliking? Hmmm... I like it! I feel superior and vindicated by liking my original response, and I like the umbrage I feel, as it soothes my sadness and makes me feel better than her. So, now that I know, I am free to choose to stay in this stance or to change it.

Work with it... Once it clicks in, it's a very interesting thought experiment.

AmeliaJane

3-11-12, 7:35pm

Our brains have evolved to make connections and judgments--the caveperson who connects the rustling bushes and the sabertooth tiger has a head start on the one who doesn't...so it is natural--just not always to our benefit. I recommended the book "Switch: Making Changes when Change is Hard" on another thread. One of the many interesting points discussed there is Fundamental Attribution Error, where we have a very strong tendency to attribute behaviors in others to innate characteristics (and then judge them), and behaviors in ourselves to situational factors. For instance, if we see a stranger's child throwing a tantrum in a store, we might jump to a conclusion about the parent's discipline, but if our child throws a tantrum, we know he is exhausted because of an ear infection. Just one of those things our brains do. But now that my attention has been drawn to it, I definitely find myself noticing when others do it (and try to notice when I do it.)

In terms of why some posters are called judgmental and others are not, I notice that the discussion forums often get heated when a writer extrapolates from the specific (ie, this person using a cellphone) to the general (all people who use cell phones). Given our diversity, there is probably someone on here who does that very thing--for instance, we clearly have lots of smart phone users. It can feel hurtful when someone says that you do X because of Y when Y is not a true conclusion--and then you want to defend or explain yourself. When a writer judges the particular person or situation in front of them and stops there, even if other readers notice assumptions being made, we are more likely to leave it alone because it doesn't touch us personally.

Just my guess...

leslieann

3-11-12, 7:44pm

This has been a good thread. Thanks, redfox, for that thought....yeah, maybe what gets people going is that they (we) LIKE our disliking...we feel "justified" as if someone else's possible failing makes us a better person.

I used to work hard to keep my judgmental thoughts to myself. I had a habit of sharing them with other people; telling people what I thought of others, usually negative but sometimes positive. Now I don't have to work at that at all. Now I have to work at softening my judgmental thoughts. They don't help me or anyone else. If I have helpful information to share I will share it, in the gentlest way possible and only if I think the person will find it helpful. Usually that is only if they have asked for my opinion. But mostly I try to notice when I am judging and let that go.

so that means I have to let go of my LIKING of my negative judgments....yes, that's a good one!

This thread fits nicely with the challenge to kindness and positivity (at least for me).

Also I am struck once again with the depth and thoughtfulness of so many people on this board. I am very appreciative that you are here and that you post.

fidgiegirl

3-11-12, 8:25pm

In terms of why some posters are called judgmental and others are not, I notice that the discussion forums often get heated when a writer extrapolates from the specific (ie, this person using a cellphone) to the general (all people who use cell phones). Given our diversity, there is probably someone on here who does that very thing--for instance, we clearly have lots of smart phone users. It can feel hurtful when someone says that you do X because of Y when Y is not a true conclusion--and then you want to defend or explain yourself. When a writer judges the particular person or situation in front of them and stops there, even if other readers notice assumptions being made, we are more likely to leave it alone because it doesn't touch us personally.

You just summed up my feelings on that point perfectly.

Plus, I love the book Switch and highly recommend!! :)

fidgiegirl

3-11-12, 8:28pm

redfox

3-11-12, 9:31pm

And just FYI... It's liking OR disliking your liking or disliking of the original reaction or event. Neither is correct. Maturana's point is that understanding this is freedom.

fidgiegirl

3-11-12, 11:16pm

Yeah, it is a hard one to get one's head around . . .

iris lily

3-11-12, 11:23pm

Hmm, I am going to have to do some reflection on the liking of disliking . . . because I notice that throughout my life, I have always had one "enemy" at a time. It's a weird thing to describe. The individual changes, but I always have one individual in my mind that I pick on, and obsess over (well, probably not to the level of obsession in clinical terms, but hopefully you get the drift). It's always been another woman, and it's always someone who we started out with having a good relationship. Mostly coworkers. So that makes me think - do I like having this "enemy?" My logical brain would say yes, but my emotional brain maybe says something else. Hmmmm indeed . . .

hey fidge, I do the "enemy" thing too only it's not a person, it's a thing. I often find that when I start obsessing about the negative aspects of the thing, I end up, weeks or months later, liking the thing. I suppose this shows that liking and disliking aren't all that far apart, both are feelings evoked and that's different from neutrality.

lhamo

3-19-12, 5:55am

Check out this tool for a perspecetive on your question, herbgeek:

http://www.systems-thinking.org/loi/loi.htm

redfox, I was going to comment on how helpful I found this tool when you posted it in an earlier discussion -- thanks for posting it again! I have shared the idea with colleagues at work and hope that we can use it as the basis for a future staff training session/discussion because I found it so useful

I find myself being very judgmental sometimes. I am trying in such situations to step back from my tendency to criticize and ask myself "who does this help?" Most of the time, no one. If I approach it from a different framework of "how can I help" sometimes I see the situation in a whole new light. Sometimes people behaving badly or below their full potential just need a little nudge or a helping hand to move in a more positive direction. Judging them rarely helps, and often just makes them dig even deeper into those old patterns.

lhamo

Zoe Girl

3-19-12, 9:23am

Hmm, I am going to have to do some reflection on the liking of disliking . . . because I notice that throughout my life, I have always had one "enemy" at a time. It's a weird thing to describe. The individual changes, but I always have one individual in my mind that I pick on, and obsess over (well, probably not to the level of obsession in clinical terms, but hopefully you get the drift). It's always been another woman, and it's always someone who we started out with having a good relationship. . .

I am glad you are looking at this. I know it is a habit that many women have. I am not as bad as I used to be but I will tell you that women are hard on each other overall. I have worked very hard on this, there is a point to notice things and have feelings hurt or realize you had an expectation of another person, and then there is a whole other level of judgement.

I really like having male friends.

peggy

3-19-12, 10:00am

Perception is reality. We can only experience the world through our own life experiences, people we've know, places we've been, things we've read/done, etc... Sure, we can say that person has a different reality or different experience, but we are just saying that and knowing that on a mindful level. Our personal beliefs and feelings and thoughts are from deep within us and colored by our perception of everything from the day we were born. We can no more change our past experiences than we can change being born. That's not good or bad, it just is.
Like with the child having tantrum example. When I hear a kid having a melt down in a store, for instance, I never think of the parents as good or bad, or the kid either, really. I always think to myself, 'someone needs a nap, or someone is hungry, or someone is having a bad day', that sort of thing. I can then see the parents and make a mindful judgement on their parenting, or the kid on his naughtiness, but it always kind of surprises me, in a small way, because of my initial 'judgement'. Which will always be my initial (gut) judgement.

As far as liking the disliking, I really had to think a bit to wrap my brain around that one. But, going back to the perception as reality notion, I have to say I don't really see it as an issue, worthy of deep thought or agonizing over, in most instances. Again, we are the sum total of all we've ever felt, thought, experienced, people we've met, etc... I'm talking about everyday kind of judging. The behaviour I judge negatively, or positively, is because this is part of my core values. Like giving a baby soda pop in a bottle. No matter what the mother's situation is, whether she is tired, or it's a family tradition, or kids are relentless in wanting what they want, I will always judge that negatively. It's never good to give a baby soda pop in a bottle, in my opinion. So is that liking the dislike? I guess it is, and I suppose there are so many 'dislikes' I 'like' simply because I have core values and morals I will never be shed of. They are me and what makes me. And everyone else is the same. Unless you wake up tomorrow with total amnesia, we are not baby ducks waking in a new world everyday. Are you 50? Well, you have 50 years, 18,250 days of experience you have internalized.

Now I suppose if you daily encounter, for a period of time, situations that differ from your life experience, then perhaps you could change your core beliefs. I think of cops in that situation. Inner city cops who daily deal with the dregs of society. I'm sure after awhile they start thinking every teenager is a delinquent, because those are the ones they come daily in contact with through their jobs. They aren't daily dealing with the good kids who go to school, stay out of trouble and just work on their cars on the weekend. But the average person, who maybe is robbed by a teenager, might say 'them damn teenagers', but instinctively they know teenagers are not like that because their life experience tells them differently. I wonder sometimes if this is why you see so many cops coaching kids or working with them in some other positive way. I wonder if they recognize the danger, or the change in themselves in their core belief of teenagers, (or homeless, or whatever)

So I kind of see the 'liking' the 'dislike' thing as a curious mental exercise for psychologist, but kind of a lot of babble. Analyzing the analyst.;)

leslieann

3-19-12, 11:11am

lhamo....regarding your internal question of judgments (who does this help?) I have found another useful internal query: how does this benefit me? How does thinking ill or good of someone else benefit ME?

In negative judging, I can feel superior. In positive judgments, I can also feel superior, either because I am clear-sighted enough to see the positive or because I am open-minded enough to let go of the negative in order to see the positive.

I think my judgments are all about serving ME in some ways. I think I learned that from Byron Katie.

redfox

3-19-12, 11:27am

The originator of the thought piece I posted in an epistemologist, not a psychologist. Epistemology is the philosophical inquiry into how you know what you know. The point of the thought piece is this: examine your perceptions & what you think about them. You like (or dislike) something: why? Then, examine that why. There is no correct answer, the entire point is to use this inquiry to become fully aware of one's thought & your beliefs about those thoughts (I like or dislike something), and how attached one is to that stance. It's just a tool for self-insight, not a judgement. Took me months & months to get it! Use or not...

Perception happens in our brains, which is shaped, literally, by life experience, and what beliefs we learn about those, as well as genetics. Each of us creates a framing for understanding our perceptions. Aldous Huxly wrote a little book called The Doors of Perception. Very interesting, I recommend it.

peggy

3-19-12, 4:13pm

I"m guessing you aren't talking about the everyday value judgements we make like soda for babies is bad, or that bad mom isn't holding the kids hand crossing the street, etc... Are you talking about the biggies, that maybe on the surface don't seem to be a 'value constant' like soda/babies, but men with beards, things like that? (as in , men with beards are dirty, or criminals) Or even more, like seeing a group of teenagers and immediately thinking these kids are up to no good? I suppose the first step is to identify these judgements (so many of those type are automatic) and then go from there. I guess it is easy to say all come from experience, but then I think of my family. My grandfather was a terrible raciest. Absolutely the atypical turn off the TV if a commercial featured a black person kind of raciest. And he never was quiet about it either. I don't know if anything in his experience gave him that, but I know my mom or us did not have experiences that would give us that opinion. My mom is pretty good about it, but every now and then she will say something where I just hear my grandfather, so her 'experience' came from him actually. But I guess you could even say that goes back to experience, as her father was a good deal of her experience. But she never showed any racism (that I was aware of) while we were growing up, so where did my brother come from? He is raciest, to the core. Every stereotypical profile of tea baggers he is. Even more so than many of them really are, if you know what I mean. And he is a republican/conservative, although I don't want to equate the two, he does possess all the trappings we normally associate with conservatives. He wasn't raised this way, at all. So how did he get these core beliefs? Do you think people actively court these beliefs? I mean, if they like the dislike, do they just ratchet up these feelings, kind of like Rush Limbaugh, to the point that they not only say Barack Obama is a secret Muslim who hates America and loves terrorist, but actually believe it?
I think that would be interesting to know. What type of person actively tells themselves something over and over until they believe it, even thought they didn't believe it at first. I mean negative things, hateful things about others. What do they get from that? Feeling superior? Maybe you're right about that. Or i wonder if the forces telling them these things over and over understand the nature of brainwashing, and are using that.

Well, I think I've gotten off track now. The subject is interesting. But I find it interesting not as individual cases, but in group think. How does a group, with an agenda, convince countrymen that other countrymen are their enemy, evil, less than human, and worthy of genocide? We are horrified by this and yet it keeps happening over and over in this world. And I have to believe these people aren't all evil wicked people, but their core beliefs have been changed to the point where they don't examine their 'dislikes' on even a surface level. It's not experience, so how can their core beliefs be changed so easily and so horrifically.

Sorry if this is rambling. This conversation just got me thinking.