Do you think people really change?

[frugalone]

Maybe I mean CAN they really change.

I had a therapist a few years ago who used to tell me that though one of my family members might have *wanted* to change, perhaps she *could not* change.
When I would talk to said family member, and tell her this, she would argue with me that *everyone* can change. They just have to keep trying.

I don't know if I believe this. What about all those cliches: "Leopards dont' change their spots," "people don't change," etc.

What do YOU think?

Just as a side note, I know I've tried and tried to change certain things about myself for years, and I just can't seem to do it. Or, I've done it for a while, then reverted to my old behavior.

[puglogic]

What's that expression...."when the pain of changing is exceeded by the pain of staying the same, we will change." I think anyone who does not have a brain-altering condition like addiction or bipolar etc. has the capacity to change if they wish to. It isn't always easy, it has to be something that matters deeply to us, and we can't be doing it for someone else (in my humblest of opinions :) ). I am a radically different person than I was 20 years ago, much happier and much stronger/freer, but it was no cakewalk: I really had to want it with all my heart, and I did. In Shambhala they call our little nest of habitual patterns "the cocoon," and describe how hard it can be to break out of that comfortable dysfunction.

[redfox]

Yes, I do think people can change. I have changed many aspects of my thinking & functioning. For instance, I recently renounced worry! So far, so good. I'll keep ya posted! Laying new neural pathways & extinguishing old ones takes time.

[lhamo]

I think you can change but it takes a lot of effort and the right support structures -- sometimes those can be internal, sometimes external support is needed. Some things are probably more difficult to change than others. "willpower" is not enough, but willpower can be developed. Something you were unable to change at first can be changed later as you keep working on it and develop new skills and techniques.

I'm currently working on changing a few things about myself, both habits and personality. I am trying to be a more positive, proactive person who focuses on what needs to be done and what I can do to make it happen. I think it is resulting in positive changes. A work in progress. Worth the investment, I think, and an interesting journey.

lhamo

[pinkytoe]

Yes, I believe people can change. Perhaps not our basic personalities but certainly our thoughts and actions. I am by nature a reserved person, but I have learned to be "outgoing" when I need to be. I have also overcome some strong addictions like cigarette smoking (over 30 years). I am so much happier now as an older person than when I was younger and not aware enough to change what needed to be.

[Gardenarian]

I do believe people can change, but it generally takes something really earth-shaking for them to do so.

Q. What herb is the cure for everything?

A. Thyme.

[frugalone]

What's that expression...."when the pain of changing is exceeded by the pain of staying the same, we will change." I think anyone who does not have a brain-altering condition like addiction or bipolar etc. has the capacity to change if they wish to.

Thank you. I've known several addicts (family members) and I've kind of given up on their changing. We get our hopes up when there's a rehab situation, and before you know it, they have fallen off the wagon again. It's quite sad. I KNOW it's an illness...but I find it difficult not to get angry. Esp. when there are young kids involved who need their (addict) parents who aren't there for them. Why don't the addicts think, "Hey, I have a son who needs me. Time to clean up my act."

[raeann]

I don't think we should just write off an addict and say they can't change because it's brain chemistry, etc. They altered their brain chemistry once by becoming an addict, they could do it again. Lord knows it certainly isn't easy. Think how hard it is to get over a broken relationship. There have been studies showing that a relationship can become an "addiction" and ending the relationship can lead to withdrawal. But time and perseverance heals. Often with an addict of alcohol, drugs, etc., that's the symptom, not the cause of their dysfunction. There was some underlying behavior or thought-process that allowed them or drove them to become an addict. Unless that problem is addressed, there's no way to fix the addiction problem that everyone can see. ........not a psychologist here, this is just an application from other lessons.

[Anne Lee]

Yes. But it's neither easy nor quick and needs to happen during the right "window."

[iris lily]

Sure, people can change behaviors. I 'm not entirely sure if that's what we are talking about here. Essential nature doesn't change, but a person can develop better impulse control, empathy, understanding of consequences, etc. and these changes can result in different behaviors.

[puglogic]

I don't think we should just write off an addict and say they can't change because it's brain chemistry, etc. They altered their brain chemistry once by becoming an addict, they could do it again.

I assume this is directed at me. When you've been pouring a quart of vodka into your brain daily for 30 years, unfortunately, most can't simply stop and then grow it back. Someone at the beginning stages of addiction has the ability to change course, naturally, though as Anne Lee points out it's neither quick nor easy. But when the physical damage has been done long-term, even an MRI will show the destruction, and it's unlikely they'll be physiologically able to return to a normal state where they can do the hard work it takes to shake an addiction. The percentages are tiny, tiny. Those are the folks I was (unclearly) referring to.

But in my work I've seen amazing stories of people recovering before they hit this end stage, and I never give up hope that they can change if they choose to.

I am nothing like the human being I started out to be, bless her heart. But it took thousands of hours of work over the years to change, so I really had to want it, and have the brain cells left to do it.

[ctg492]

I used to say NO, people do not change. Now I say YES, I am living proof. Life spun around and flipped upside down last fall. I found through classes, lectures and way to much reading that "I" had Enabling,Co-dependency,Loving to death issues. I know I have changed, I worked so hard and it was really really hard. Accepting the 3 Cs: I did not Cause it, I can not Control it and I can not Change it. Made all the difference in the world for me, I am at peace now with things that just about took me down. If I can I know now others can too.
PS My Son is 7 months clean from addiction this week, if that is not change I do not know what is :cool: he has worked very hard to make the change in his life.

[ctg492]

Addiction, is something I knew nothing about. I assumed those people just did not have the will power to change, they took the easy way, they could if they wanted to.......
Through my son's addiction and his rehab/recovery and journey of one day at a time, I had to grow and learn also. The things I learned and came to understand what is going on inside the person. I never understood the "disease" line of thought of addiction of any type, I fully understand and accept it now.

[cjones]

YES. People can change. My DH had some verbal-abusive behaviors at the beginning of our marriage. I implemented Walk Out of the Room therapy. He changed fast!

[ApatheticNoMore]

What is change? Forever and for all time? (for a lifetime) Problem solved? Or can the change itself change back again? Re-occur, re-lapse etc.. Because there can be a cyclical nature to such things that can give you whiplash.

So you haven't been really depressed for years and years and you find yourself back in it, headed straight for clinical depression. Wait, how did that happen .... (dont' ask me how I know)

Or ... I hate to say it but since we're talking about addiction, even people decades sober can start using again (not all of them, of course, but it happens, it's why AA will say your always an addict, just if sober a "dry drunk" or whatever, one day at a time forever). So much change and yet impulses deeply part of the personality can reoccur. Parts of the essential nature that drove you to something in the first place surface and are surrendered to.

So do you call the temporary victory CHANGE or only look at the long run reoccurance if it happens? And perhaps the cyclical pattern or recovery (for long periods of time), relapse, recovery reoccurs until even let's say a timely death at a ripe old age (of course with addiction there is often the risk of early death).


I assume this is directed at me. When you've been pouring a quart of vodka into your brain daily for 30 years, unfortunately, most can't simply stop and then grow it back. Someone at the beginning stages of addiction has the ability to change course, naturally, though as Anne Lee points out it's neither quick nor easy. But when the physical damage has been done long-term, even an MRI will show the destruction, and it's unlikely they'll be physiologically able to return to a normal state where they can do the hard work it takes to shake an addiction. The percentages are tiny, tiny. Those are the folks I was (unclearly) referring to.

A lot of drugs don't actually cause permanent loss of intellegence as far as I know. They mess with your neurotransmitters for darn sure! But still that's different than brain atrophy and loss of intellegence. Alcohol of course will kill brain cells if abused to great excess long term, but not all drugs are like that.

Anyway the neurotransmitter mess is why a lot of ex-drug addicts end up permanently on anti-depressants etc. afterwards. They are pretty much ALWAYS prescribed them afterwards and their neurotransmitters ARE temporarily messed up afterwards. I don't know that even they are damaged for all time, but they end up dependent on anti-depressants is what happens. They often had some tendency to depression and anxiety that drove them toward addiciton in the first place it is true, but I think why they are prescribed them immediately after is because by then whatever natural mood regulation they add has been completely destroyed at least temporarily by drugs.

[Zoebird]

I think that, at the core, a person doesn't change. that is to say, we have a temperament, a personality, a sort of "core person."

But, that person can be healthy or unhealthy in a myriad of ways. And when they are, the might entirely "look like" completely opposite temperaments and personalities.

I like the Enneagram (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp) because it explains this so nicely.

There are 9 core personality types. These core types can also have one of three subtypes (any type can have any sub type), creating many different combinations. Then, these core personality types with their subtypes can have "wings" -- attributes of the neighboring personality types (e.g., an 8 can have a 7 or a 9 wing).

From there, the different types have levels of health in different areas of their lives, and then behavior patterns based on levels of stress. For example, my type is a 6. When in disintegration, I behave like an unhealthy 3 type; when in integration (or growth), I move toward a healthy 9 state.

And then, of course, there is how the different types relate to each other in different relationships -- if a 6 is with a 9 lover, then it will be similar to X. If a 6 is with a 9 boss, it will work this way. If six is boss and nine is employee, it will likely go that way.

So, at the most basic level, people change all the time in a myriad of ways -- mostly disintegrating or integrating, or increasing and decreasing in health over time.

[hersh0501]

Well it depends on the experience or on how an elderly discipline the child.

[clara24]

Yes people can chance in fact right now i am changing my self to a better one and i start it on quitting on smoking and replacing it to electronic cigarette or tupakointi lopettaminen including stopping also on drinking alcohols .

[rosarugosa]

Good luck Clara. I quit smoking over two years ago, and I used e-cigarettes to help me make the transition, although I believe Nicorette gum was an even bigger factor in my success. I was a heavy smoker who had smoked for 38 years. I don't even want to smoke anymore and I feel so much better than I did as a smoker, mentally and physically. You can do it!

[ctg492]

I believe in my heart people can and do change. I never used to believe that.

[razz]

I had missed this thread earlier but wanted to add the thought that we are all always changing as a result of time and context and our response to those two stimulators. Keeping it that simple helps me make life and its joys and challenges an adventure to be explored.

[ToomuchStuff]

Clara came back and brought up a two year old thread with a spam link again? Did she ever respond to the moderators about this spam, or is this possibly an account setup that people are paid to respond and put links in (professional spammers)?
People CAN change their thought processes and actions, they can ADAPT to physical limitations, the question really becomes do they want to do what is necessary to change?

[ApatheticNoMore]

People CAN change their thought processes and actions, they can ADAPT to physical limitations, the question really becomes do they want to do what is necessary to change?

which itself is only probably so much about willpower really, it's why AA calls it "hitting bottom" (even though I have found that phrase endlessly annoying when used as a rationalization) but it does acurrately capture a certain element of chance and fate. But if you want to change - keep at it, keep trying and maybe more valuable keep experimenting. Yea a 2 year old thread >8) (if I was depressed 2 years ago, I'm not right now, but that's always come and gone).

[Tussiemussies]

My husband changed for the worse and then when it came down to the bottom line he really changed for the best. It has been over five years since he changed...

[ctg492]

I saw this was an old thread when I re read it. You know the cool thing I mentioned in my original response that my son was clean. Today is 31 months clean, as he said to me today:thankyou:

[Lainey]

I saw this was an old thread when I re read it. You know the cool thing I mentioned in my original response that my son was clean. Today is 31 months clean, as he said to me today:thankyou:

That's excellent, ctg492. An admirable accomplishment for him.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I saw this was an old thread when I re read it. You know the cool thing I mentioned in my original response that my son was clean. Today is 31 months clean, as he said to me today

that's very good. The addict I'm closest to, depends on pharmaceuticals (I don't just meant anti-depressants I mean to manage the addiction itself) to manage their addiction now. Which is less likely to lead quickly to the grave so there is that, but isn't really sobriety in my view. Although why sobriety itself may not have been attempted is not that hard to ascertain when you look at psychological state :|

[catherine]

I saw this was an old thread when I re read it. You know the cool thing I mentioned in my original response that my son was clean. Today is 31 months clean, as he said to me today:thankyou:

How wonderful for him!

[reader99]

My core strengths and weaknesses haven't really changed, but I've changed what I do with them. Instead of my adolescent pattern of using my intelligence to "prove" that I was okay, worthwhile and even better than others, I now use it to bring genuine information into discussions and practical applications. I'm good at looking stuff up and this fills a gap for people who aren't or who won't bother.

I didn't and still don't have a strong ability to 'read' other people's reactions to me and I'm still unconsciously tactless. What's different is that I don't flog myself over it now and I am quicker and easier to apologize when it's brought to my attention.

I've pared my addictions down to just sugar, which is dirt cheap and doesn't cause me to act out in ways that harm me or others. I still have the brain chemistry that makes me vulnerable to self-medication and makes me require prescription medication, but I've learned to manage the manifestations of it so the least harm is done.

The great thing about not resisting my basic physiology and personality is that not resisting it makes it possible to look it in the eye and make practical adjustments to live with it as best I can.

[ctg492]

Then last many months since August and October of 13, events that involved people I loved the most flipped my world upside down. I can tell you how I think, respond, deal with, worry about issues have changed. These were the core of me as a person, how I dealt with life. How I lived. I do not feel I am the same person anymore. I did not know I could be so changed. If this can happen to me, I know it can happen to others.

[razz]

All sounds as though you are getting more comfortable in your own skin. Well Done!

[larknm]

Yes.