View Full Version : Good Mommy/Bad Mommy, setting yourself apart from other moms...
I just finished listening to one of my very favourite radio (CBC Radio) programs, NXNW (North by Northwest, with host, Sheryl MacKay), and this morning one of her guests was Willow Yamauchi, a Vancouver-based writer, artist mom of 2, and Author of, Bad Mommy, a fun, lighthearted, and serious look at moms, and how they lie to themselves and to others.
It was an interesting broadcast, where both author (along with host), touched on how moms tend to fabricate and stretch their stories in relation to their children's progress, milestones, and victories, when talking with other moms, and how the author allowed other mothers to bring her down, depress her, and even make her feel lesser-than, in relation to her own mothering accomplishments, until Willow, went to her grandmother for advice, at which time, her grandmother let her in on a little secret, "it's all a lie". "Mommies are lying to themselves, and mommies are lying to each other...
Anyhow, thought it would be an interesting topic to explore and delve into with you all.
As a side-note, I happily entered motherhood with a sense to simply do my best, and never concerned myself over, or allowed myself to be swayed or influenced by other moms claiming that their children were walking by 6 months, or out of diapers by a year, or sleeping through the entire night (without waking) from 7 pm, till 7 am, or enrolled in advanced Piano Pedagogy by age 2, and playing Beethoven Concertos.
I just did my own thing and worked though the daily course of trials and tribulations I was faced with, and let the chips fall where they fell, and to this day I'm proud of not having lied to other moms as to my children's cognitive development and learning. Says a lot about being true to oneself and to others.
I never listened to other mom's either. Maybe most of us on this board are like that? We're not caught up on Keeping up with the Joneses.
I did, however, really try to encourage each child's talents.........music, art, leadership, etc. Maybe I'm fooling myself. I do have a competitive streak in me that I probably passed on to my kids.
I was very proud of my kids' accomplishments, but I didn't really brag on them to the other mothers. (they could see for themselves that my kids were superior. hahahaha......just kidding!)
In all fairness, I have to say that I really didn't interact with other mothers, being the loner I am. I just tried to always do the right/good thing, regardless of what other mothers were doing.
Job well done, CathyA! Good on you!!! A couple of my kids really struggled with learning how to tie shoes, and I never pushed the issue, often saying to them, "it's OK honey, mommy will do them up for you", then when the time was right, I'd embark upon another round of shoe-tying and I'd comfort them and build their morale by telling them, "yay, so close, you almost got it, just another few tries and you'll be tying your shoes as good as mommy can"! Lots and lots of encouragement and reinforcement in our house, courtesy of my own struggles growing up, being cast off to the side and forgotten. I didn't want any of my children to go through that.
Because I didn't enlist--nor was I drafted--I' m merely an observer on the sidelines of the Mommy Wars. And I have to admit, I find them mostly hilarious.
It was family lore that my insistence "I'll do it myself!" held up a lot of departures. In my dotage, I'd like to rethink that position.
I really dislike pissing contests, and I also dislike mommy wars, and I tend not to hang with other people in general, and in particular not other mothers. just how my world is.
I dunno why.
Anyway, I do my thing, right? I follow my own interests in regards to my parenting, and I follow my son's interests in regards to parenting him. I have no concept of milestones and when/whether he should be reaching them. Turns out he's consistently ahead of the curve, but I don't really care per se, and I don't talk about it with anyone. I just happen to notice when I'm at the kindy or the play ground, going "why is son doing X and none of the other chidlren doing X?" and then I ask a mom "is you kid doing X, just not right now?" And usually no. I learned to ask the teacher. "Is it developmentally normal for DS to do X?" and she goes "no, ahead of the curve, running 6 months in some cases, 1 year in others." She's way more on top of that stuff than I am. And the kindy set up a giftedness evaluation for him, which I thought was cool.
Anyway, it's not like it's cache for me. It's fine or whatever. I'm just loving on my son as he is. If he were behind, that would be cool too, and we'd meet those needs also. And if he were smack-dab in the middle, same as.
I do think he's pretty awesome though. :) But then, I thnk a lot of kids are pretty awesome, I just love mine more intensely becasue he's mine.
I find that most mommy wars, like diet wars and everything else, come from simple misunderstandings. I'm "in one" now, but I had no intention of it.
One other message board that I'm on had a dad ask for info about how to handle a 2 yr old discipline issue. I provided a couple of web sites, and asserted what worked for us at that age. Another woman -- with grown children -- asserted that physical violence was necessary (smacking) at this age, etc. She quoted me, and said that I was "spoiling" my child and it would lead to Many Bad Things.
So, I responded with: I disagree, and so does the science around this. Link plus quote from scientific article.
Well, you owuld think I called her a terrible mother. She spent the next 10,000 characters talking about how judgmental I was being and this and that. I wasn't at all. She was the one who said that I was ruining my kid by not spanking him. I simply rebutted with scientific evidence.
She then turned it into the whole "you are playing the victim/martyr for your kids" and "if you were a working mom" game, and I said "no, not really. I'm a working mom, I don't feel at all like a martyr for my kid. I just found a method that works htat doesn't involve hitting the child.
Later, I described a comparative legal analysis (and history) as to when/why hitting another human being is considered ok (defense of self, defense of other), when it was historically appropriate for domestic violence, when the laws came in and waht they said, and why children are the last bastion of this strange thinking that it's ok to hit other sovereign beings. She took personal offense to that again, when I was really just laying out the underlying social values in the development of the relevant case law.
God forbid a person puts forth a cohesive, logical argument.
but then, it came down from another person "all the logical arguments and best laid plans mean nothing when you can't figure out any better way to solve the problem at hand between your kids." and that I needed to "be more open minded" about spanking.
Thing is, I don't see any reason to utilize it, and I don't utilize it (and it's illegal here in NZ for the reasons that I'd outlined), and there were many resources at hand for most people to find a more appropriate solution. After all, we certainly wouldn't allow a husband to say "I just ran out of options. I had to hit my wife." Nor would we allow someone to say "I just ran out of options, I had to hit my dog." And likewise, we would not allow someone to say "I ran out of options, I had to hit my employee." But we will say "I ran out of options, I had to hit my kid." Why?
So I asked her, "Provide a reason *why* I should support your decision. If you can provide a cohesive, logical argument, then I'll open my mind to it, But until then, I must advoate for the sovereignty and sanctity of children's bodies." After all, I advocate for keeping children in-tact, why wouldn't I advocate to keep them from being unharmed through corporeal punishment? They stem from the same origin of individual sovereignty.
Anyway, that's enough of that. she couldn't come up with an argument, other than that I "wasn't willing to listen to reason." I pointed out that, as yet, she has not offered any reason for her decision, other than "I was at my wits end. I couldn't think of anything else that would work." Too bad, really.
And, It's not even like I think she's a "bad parent." I see that she is a thoughtful person trying to do her best. I think that with the right support and direction (such as a parenting coach or family counsellor who specializes in these issues), she'd likely find a non-violent solution. But, she didn't want to go that route, so. . . what can I do? Nothing at all.
But that doesn't mean that i'm sitting around judging her or thinking she's bad or wrong. For some reason, I think epople just want me to validate their choices. But I find that If i'm making a choice that follows my values, and it's what I think is right, no one needs to validate it but me. So, it would seem to me that if a person needs validation, then they need to reconsider their position, rather than seek validation from someone else.
that went on way longer than i meant it to.
I'm observing a lot of this now that there is a new grandbaby in the family (my grand niece). The thinking seems to go like this: if your kid does something earlier than other kids, it makes you a "better" mother. There seems to be a lot of self esteem issues on the mother's part really tied into this, ie the more insecure the mother, the more she compares her kid to others as a competition. My nephew's wife was recently told that her daughter was petite (aka short) by another mother, even though said child is 95% on the growth charts, as well as that she should be saying several words by now at 11 months. The criticism was coming from someone who's infant is just 3 months old, so you know she is such an expert (heavy sarcasm).
Jane. Yes, it can have an entertaining element attached to it (at times), but mostly I find it waring.
Zoebird. Motherhood, truly is an expedition isn't it. One of my old neighbours was the best. Her and I, used to discuss everything kid related, and I always walked away feeling as though she was second-mom to my daughter. We were always on the same page.
Herbgeek. I, too, struggle with experts, and as luck would have it, we have one in our immediate family, only difference being, she's an expert on EVERYTHING!
In my family, it's rather odd.
Basically, my sister is "needy" and my family is "needy" with her. So, her son is better at everything at the same age (or younger) than Hawk was. It doesn't bother me per se, I just go "oh, that's nice."
It goes like this actually:
Me: How's B doing?
Mom or Sister: He's great, today he just started doing X!
Me: That's so cute! Did you put a video on FB?
Mom or Sister: We will. That's at least 3 months before H did it, right?
Me: Oh, I don't remember.
Mom or Sister: You didn't take a lot of photos or videos. But I remember it being about 3 months after B's current age.
Me: Oh, that's nice. It's cool that you remember so much about him as an infant! :D
In all honesty, I do have evidence that DS was doing things either at the same age or earlier. Ie, DS was walking about 3 months before DN. It's not a comparison to me -- I don't think about it at all. DS was running normal/slightly ahead at the time, and DN is running normal. DN is also tall/heavy -- so he's a big boy. He's very cute.
But, when I would say "no, DS was doing that around X months" and then go look up the photos/video, they would get all kinds of angry/frustrated with me and just freak out. So, I switched tactics -- which is to say I just decided to agree with them. LOL
I really like my kid, and I'm proud of him, but he is just doing what he is doing. I don't' think about his 'right age or development' per se. I mean, he was jumping off of things and running around parkour style, so I started taking him to parkour training, which he enjoys (for the first 45 minutes, then he wants to go on the playground, so we do), and I get a nice time out of it as well. He took up an interest in archery, so we support that interest by providing him with the most basic bow and arrows and a sheet to shoot at.
Everyone keeps telling me that all of this is too old for him. But if he's coming to it himself, how is that possible? I don't know. It's weird.
I'm just doing my thing. I wish other people just did their thing and didn't worry about anyone else. :)
Gardenarian
5-14-12, 6:14pm
Homeschoolers tend to be kind of prickly about this. We usually don't bring up what our kids are doing academically, because - well, one of the reasons we homeschool is because we want to avoid that sort of competition and pressure! I think some are reluctant to talk about what their kids are reading or doing for fun because they don't want to seen as either slackers or braggers. It's too bad, because I would like to know what works/doesn't work for other parents, but asking is seen as intrusive.
fidgiegirl
5-14-12, 6:28pm
Watching the whole thing from the outside makes me not want to even have kids. My friend said it was awful how much unsolicited and intrusive advice/comments/questions/judgments she got during her pregnancy. Not sure if it's tapered off now that her child is "on the outside," tee hee. Not sure I could handle it.
Kind of weirded out by the whole thing lately . . . mommyhood, that is . . . and of course, since we moved, that must be why, right?! We're making our nest?! ARGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Parenting is fun, so long as you keep your head down. And also learn how to "pass the bean dip" (or change the subject).
When I was pregnant, people were excited. Like a person planning a wedding, they want to know the details "how are you decorating the nursery!?" and so on. The products seem to really excite people, too. So, the fact that DH and I were taking a minimalist approach, people were quite confused. "Did you buy the crib yet?" was often answered by my DH honestly "No, we plan on bed sharing!" Which lead first to confusion, and then to a tirade about how dangerous that is, and how someone's friend's cousin's sister-in-law's friend's brother's aunt's best friend's grand child DIED because of that. It's always abstracted. :)
But you learn. For example, I would be asked the same question "ooh! what are you thinking for the nursery." In my head "nothing, who needs that crap!" out of my mouth, "Oh, I really haven't decided. I liked this one fabric at Ikea a lot, with all the animals. I thought that was nice. How about your so-and-so's nursery?" A lot of peopel just like to talk. So, I'd turn it around so that they could talk about nurseries that they liked. That's really all they wanted.
The same is true of other advice. "now, you make sure you circumcise if it's a boy. it's healthiest!" (which is nonsense) would be managed by saying "oh, yes, the health of our baby is paramount to us, you know! What do you think about that article in Time magazine?" Again, listen to them talk, because that's all they want to do anyway.
I basically do not try to inform or educate anyone, nor get into arguments about it, nor anything else. I provided printed articles written by doctors for my ILs, but otherwise -- never talked about what we were going to do.
Once I had the baby, I wouldn't talk about what we were doing. I would always answer with "I find this the easiest, honestly." Because people will always accept that you are taking the path of least resistance. When asked why I didn't have a stroller? "Because I find this easier, honestly." And that's the truth. Strollers are a big piece of equipment to carry around and use. A large piece of fabric isn't.
Now, sometimes I would get frustrated about that process -- the constant questioning and what not. But, ultimately, just being happy with my own choices, it doesn't really matter at all to me. And you get a thick skin about it.
Every once in a while, you might have a fractious run-in with people, and under no uncertain terms is the other person ever going to ahve the sense that they have "gotten over" on me. For example, nasty looks from the ladies my mother's age at the book store when DS was struggling with a cold and his nursing wasn't as comfortable as usual. Yes, I was exposed due to the struggle. But I was also over in the corner, in a private space (for a public place), and everything was fine. The third time they looked at me, I looked right back with the "F*** YOU STUPID OLD LADIES" look, and they never looked back again. Not their business. First look is completely ignored. Second look I look back with a sort of "what?" look. Third time, it's the BACK OFF OR I WILL BACK YOU OFF.
This is also why basically no one makes a comment. You make a comment, and I'm ultimately going to stand up for myself. All it takes is a look. I remember that look from Princess Diana, once. It's a look you get when you are a mother, seriously. I probably didn't have it at all before. But I remember this one time when she was talking about land mines in Africa, and she was with some children at a care center where they'd been treated for injuries due to land mines, and the reporters kept getting very close to the children. She was polite to them, then polite, then THE LOOK, and then THE LOOK plus a FIRM VOICE, and then that was it. She ended the interview. :) That's Mom Skillz. She was fiercely protective of those boys of hers, too.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I probably look just about as harsh as she did, which makes most people quail pretty quickly.
So, yeah. Ramble ramble.
G,
I'm wondering if it would be possible to have a "homeschooling peer supervision" which is to say a group of parents who would provide support to each other about what is working/isn't working in their households, with the clear understanding that it's not about comparisons, so much as just looking at how things go?
Homeschoolers are a hugely diverse group. The only ones whom I know are unschoolers, really, and they talk all the time about resources. I think because it's a very proactive process (not that regular homeschooling isn't, but a lot of regular homeschooling involves curricula to follow and so you can go to folks who use a similar one and get support resources that way, whereas unschoolers are kinda on their own).
anyhoot. :D
Zoebird. That's just it, parents doing their thing, and the children doing their thing, both sides in sync (of course), but nonetheless, to each his/her own. Also wonder (at times) if those doing the bragging or casting, actually realize how they sound, or even if they actually realize what they are doing.
Gardenarian. Great points, and yes, I second your take on the asking concern. Not only can it be seen as being intrusive, it opens that old can of worms up again for the ones being asked, to brag-up a fabricated storm!
Fidgiegirl. As a mom I'll admit, it's a big turnoff. In the past I've cut conversations short, and made border-line rude escapes, in order to relieve myself of such oppressiveness, and it shouldn't be that way. My take on the motherhood thing is, it should be a supportive, comforting, and uplifting process... talking, sharing, and listening, when it comes to child-rearing, but sadly it just isn't.
Zoebird. In you mentioning the part about people asking you if you bought a crib yet, I laughed, because my mom (faithfully), with each baby due, would ask me, "dear... are you going to be using cloth diapers, again"? Also used to get it from other family, too. And how right you are, dare you answer ones line of questioning with something unfamiliar or odd, look out! You only thought you knew what it felt like to be micro-examined!
Re: circumcision... our last two boys didn't have the procedure done, our first two, did, and believe it or not, I still go through days where I'm sorry we allowed it. If I were doing the whole mommy thing, again, today, circumcision, would be out!
One thing I learned from being a mother, you do what you have to do, wherever, whenever, around whomever. I learned that early on (thank goodness), because had I not, motherhood would have been excruciatingly painful!
BTW, I want to point out that I don't think women my mother's age are 'stupid old ladies.' It's more like, if I'm working with my son and he's struggling, I have enough to be getting on with that I don't need anyone's stupid glares or opinions in the mix. :)
Honestly, I really like parenting. I also like my work, so we likely won't have any more. In fact, it's highly likely at this point. We feel great because we are now earning enough to do a bit more for DS (take him on adventures that he wants to do -- which i mostly just more gasoline, but hey, it's something!). I want to have more fun with him. :)
I felt the sting of the mommy wars a lot with my first kid, but it hasn't been a factor for a while now. The decision I took the most heat over was becoming a SAHM, but now with 5 kids 8 and under people just assume I am a SAHM because daycare would be really expensive. :)
The unsolicited advice stopped a while ago too, but when I was pregnant with Cheyenne it was plentiful. The turning point where it stopped bothering me so much was when my friend's grandma, on hearing me talk about a planned trip to the zoo, advised me not to look at the monkeys or my baby would look like a monkey. I am not even kidding you. She said that straight faced and totally serious. It was at that point that I realized that just because people say something doesn't mean I have to listen. :) That said, I got some good advice too. I've talked before about my sister's grandma-in-law, who is a fount of good advice, most of it along the lines of, "Relax, it's not rocket science. People have been doing this since the dawn of humanity."
As far as milestones, there is a really broad spectrum of normal for most of them. Bella walked at 9 months, Cheyenne walked at 14 months. James and Travis were both about a year. Who cares? My friend's little girl is 18 months and is just learning to walk with the help of braces. That's the only reason a delay would have any importance to me, because it indicated a problem, and then we'd just do what we could to fix it. No big deal. My dad couldn't walk until he was 13 years old because of a major deformity in his legs corrected by years of surgery. The important thing is, he can walk now.
I was talking to the girls about this the other day. Cheyenne is a math wiz, but struggles more with reading and Bella is an excellent reader, but has very little interest in math. I told them that I expect them to reach a level pf proficiency, but we all have our strengths and weaknesses and even those can change with time. Its not a race. It's about gaining the skills necessary to be able to deal with life. There is no practical benefit today, for example, to my mom having learned to read 30 years earlier than me. :) We can both read.
Beyond that it's about nurturing our own particular areas of talent and interest. I would like to see people forgo the competition and celebrate what is good about each person. My mom, who was a Kindergarten teacher, used to tell me that all children are gifted in some way. You can easily see it when they are little. The challenge as a parent and/or teacher is to encourage the children to use their gifts to the fullest. There is value in everyone's gifts. The girls and I were just reading about a saint who spent his life working as a doorman at his monastery, welcoming people. There is a simple beauty to that.
I think it's natural to be excited when you watch your children learn and grow. I know I am. It is one of the great joys of my life. As long as it doesn't take on a critical spirit in dealing with others, I don't think there is any harm in it and I love sharing in the joys of other parents.
flowerseverywhere
5-16-12, 3:36pm
I just read through this thread and laughed out loud. I have seen so many people in my years here give their opinion (sometimes I feel like they are shouting, shaming as well as criticizing) on
cloth vs. disposable, breast vs. bottle, home birth vs. hospital, anesthesia vs. none, circumcision vs. no, co sleeping vs. crib, strict schedules of mealtimes and bedtimes vs. go with the flow, homeschool, private school, public school, unschool, one child, no children, more than one child, more than two children, vaccinations, when to feed solid foods, spacing of children, dealing with infertility (medications, in vitro, adoption), music (or dance, or organized sports), TV time or no tv time and how much, computer use etc. etc. etc
I will be the first to admit I am not a saint in many of my opinions but reading this really cracked me up.
i'm really hard-core on the circumcision issue. there's just nothing to support it other than an opinion about looks. honestly, it's shocking.
i mean, even the difference between a traditional jewish circumcision and a regular, medical full circumcision is important, and can make all the difference (such that I would be "ok-ish" with the jewish one even -- I question whether religion should be given the 'ok' to cut children).
for me, this is an important human rights issue, akin to the female genital mutilation issue that came to the fore in the 1990s.
iris lily
5-17-12, 12:22am
...bed sharing!" Which lead first to confusion, and then to a tirade about how dangerous that is, and how someone's friend's cousin's sister-in-law's friend's brother's aunt's best friend's grand child DIED because of that. It's always abstracted. :)
Last night on NPR's Tom Ashbrook show the national guy who promotes attatchment parenting (would htat have been a Dr. Sears?) was interviewed. As a counterpoint Ashbrook had a pediatrition/mom from Washington University's medical school on to counter the bed sharing thing. She gave the number of kids who died last year in St. Louis from being smothered in the parental bed. So it's not entirely abstract, there are concrete deaths from it. Not that I care really, being a baby is inherently a risky status and if it's not one thing, it's another that will get you.
I'm sorry I failed so badly Re: starting this thread topic, Flowerseverywhere... :(
flowerseverywhere
5-17-12, 7:25am
I'm sorry I failed so badly Re: starting this thread topic, Flowerseverywhere... :(
Oh my goodness, that is not true at all. Bringing up a topic that is so timely is very important. but the bigger picture is most people have ideas about how they want to raise children regardless of how old or how many children (even if they have none) they have. They don't want to be criticized but yet feel very free to vocalize what others are doing wrong. I was simply pointing out a pattern I see in the world at large.
It is important for all of us to learn and I for one find myself very easily being quick to criticize what others do without knowing all the circumstances. It is a pattern I myself and trying to break. I had been away from this forum for a week or so and just was catching up with the posts and it just struck me so funny. My intolerance showing, that is all.
flowerseverywhere
5-17-12, 7:27am
By the way Mrs M, I love your posts and insights. You seem to be a very caring and the kind of person everyone would like to know and live next door to. Your views are not always what I feel or would do but that is the strength of a community, to always learn and grow. If we were all the same we would be bored to death.
Iris lily,
No, there are certainly risks. But there's a big difference between talking about the facts surrounding those particular deaths (and whether the primary cause was bed sharing or something else) and behaving in a panicked, shocked, and shaming way towards someone who is well aware of those risks and making an informed choice (the assumption being that the person doesn't know about the risks unless they hear about the abstracted person's story).
We can, for example, look at this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/25/AR2009012502641.html). It has some interesting information. First, it asserts that infant deaths by strangulation and suffocation have risen from 103 in 1984 to 513 in 2004. This is a big increase, for certain, and it worth concern. But here are some other factors that the article brings up.
First, bed sharing is also on the rise. (it might be noted that *reported* bed sharing is on the rise).
Second, that SIDS deaths have plateaued after a long drop, but that we have also learned how to better determine if a child died due to suffocation/strangulation vs simply attributing it to SIDS. Thus, some of these deaths could have been classified as SIDS in 1984, as opposed to being attributed to strangulation/suffocation.
Third, that these deaths are more common among poor populations that participate in "chaotic bed sharing" wherein people are bed sharing not because they want to, but because that is simply what is available to them, and that likely, they either do not know about or are not concerned with creating a safe bed-sharing environment.
What is not mentioned in the article are situations of safe bed sharing situations (no pillows, blankets, etc) wherein the parent is on some form of medication or other drugs (alcohol, sleeping pills, whatever) that may cause him/her to not have the normal sleep responses that a non-medicated parent would have -- as this would lead to a situation of rolling over onto the baby. According to the sleep research laboratory at the University of Notre Dame, rolling over onto baby is a very rare phenomenon for mothers who are not under the influence of medications (not that they would test that in the lab, but so far I think that none have rolled over on baby in lab conditions).
The really important element to consider here is not that bed sharing is the problem. The article asserts this as a claim, but then seems to back away. It could be bed sharing. One person is quoted as saying that it's logical to assume that it is. But it could also be better diagnosis of SIDS vs an actual cause of death. It could also be not from safe bed sharing, but from chaotic bed sharing where a person isn't aware of the risks. It could also be that the parent was under the influence of some medication or other substance that affected his/her ability to safely bed share.
Likewise, this doesn't really take into consideration SIDS itself. Many infants die of SIDS in both crib and non-crib scenarios. SIDS has independent risk factors that exist within crib and bed sharing experiences of SIDS. For example, babies found lying on their bellies often suffocate from being in that position. In bed sharing conditions, it the bed sharing that is considered the problem (and the parents accused of being uninformed, negligent, etc), not just the independent risk factor. The same is true of other risk factors as well.
I put this forth, of course, not to try to convince anyone to bed share.
For parents who are bottle feeding, for example, bed sharing holds greater risks according to the Notre Dame Mother-Infant Sleep Laboratory (http://cosleeping.nd.edu). Sleeping side-by-side in the same room can be just as effective for many of the bonding needs, but without the risks that the bottle feeding mother-infant dyad has. Likewise, if it is not possible for the parents to sleep comfortably without certain bedding, then the risks are also too great.
Likewise, it is simply not necessary. I think it is a perfectly valid parental choice -- but I also think that it is perfectly valid to make other choices. Most experts agree that room-sharing with the parents (or at least the mother) in the first 6 months is very helpful for a variety of reasons, including helping to prevent SIDS, but even that may not work for a given family depending upon the individual sleep patterns of the parents and infant.
It's really a matter of preference and "what works."
But when we are trying to talk about a nursery, when someone is excited and wants to try and relate to you about this fun, exciting thing (similar to asking "what are your wedding colors?!), it is simply bad form to start talking about how you are forgoing it because of bed-sharing and blah blah blah which sends the person into a panic attack where they feel the need to tell you about abstracted baby deaths in an attempt to get you to engage in a conversation about how you changed your mind and are now going to decorate a nursery.
The reality is, I'm perfectly happy to talk about issues. But most people aren't informed on these issues in a general sense (other moms in the process *are* and it's great to have dialogue with them), and just want to talk about the "fun" of having babies in a general sense. And decorating a nursery is a fun, exciting thing that people like to get on about.
So, that's why I avoid going into whatever it is I'm actually doing and spend more time talking about what they think I should be doing. Oooh, what color nursery do you like best? or what furniture have you seen recently that you like? People love that.
Go there instead. Avoid the fuss. :)
When the question "what are your wedding colors?" was lobbed at me I decided to elope on the spot.
fidgiegirl
5-17-12, 9:11am
When the question "what are your wedding colors?" was lobbed at me I decided to elope on the spot.
Good for you! I also did not really get too "into" the whole wedding thing. I think it goes back to what Zoebird said earlier in the thread. People just want to talk about their own thing, and common experiences like weddings and babies allow them to connect with people to do that.
Iris Lily,
So true. And honestly, all of this stuff is enough to make a woman want to "pack it in."
I just talked to a lady today who is thinking about forgoing because all she sees parenting as is "stress." But this is not because parenting is inherently stressful, it's because how many people are living their lives is stressful, and she sees that as "that must be parenting."
And, I can't blame her for feeling that way.
For me, before I had kids, the "stuff" that everyone tells you a kid MUST HAVE was really stressing me out. And not just the stuff but about how you Must Behave as a mother and the things that you Absolutely Have To Do.
The nursery is an example of that social pressure. It's expected that when you get pregnant, you decorate a nursery! So of course, everyone's going to want to talk about it. Heck, it's a big topic over at Apartment Therapy (http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/little-crown-interiors-nurseri-141114) these days. I think one of the writers or editors is pregnant.
So, you look at one of those and first you need: 1. a room; 2. the furnishings which apparently needs to include a crib, a dresser, a changing table with storage, a chair, a shelf of some kind or several shelves; 3. decorations; 4. stuff for babies such as clothing, bedding, diapers, diaper related stuff like diaper cream and what not, and of course, toys. One might also want to include: something with the baby's name on it; animals that is related to the child's name or is somehow important to the family or just cute; something ridiculously tacky.
And this is just the beginning, because after that stuff, you're going to need more stuff. You're going to need a pack in play, a stroller, a car seat (three, and possibly four before you get to the booster seat), a high chair, a baby swing thingy, a bouncy seat, a bumpo, a baby potty, a baby step stool (that's for later really), and of course all other things baby related that you might find lining the shelves of Babies R Us. Have yous een the size of that place?
Well, it's all Absolutely Necessary.
Honestly, the idea of drowning in all of that stuff just made me feel crazy.
Then a friend said to me "Have you heard of baby wearing?" And I hadn't. And I learned about the wrap. And I thought, OMG that is what I mean! One big piece of fabric that you can use for 3 years in different configurations!? Really! Another friend told me about EC. I thought "Are you nuts? No way!" but then I learned about it, and I used hardly any diapers. About 12 cloth ones over and over, and then later his 12 training pants diaper thingies (also cloth). And then I learned about toy minimalism, too. And I learned about how people lived before high chairs. And bed sharing. And and and.
Really, what attracted me first to attachment parenting wasn't the idea of attachment parenting (didn't know what it was, really), but the tools of it. Life could be so simple!
Then I started to learn about the benefits to baby. The benefits to mommies.
I learned how to parent without yelling. I learned how to discipline without punishments and rewards. I learned that I didn't need to sign him up for 70,000 classes -- that I could teach him or we could just do fun things together.
It was like a revelation. I could live the way that I wanted AND have a baby.
It works so nicely. :D
But it's difficult to explain to object-oriented people. Why wouldn't you want a nursery? You have an extra room. You can afford it, i'll even buy the furniture for you! and the bedding! Just saying "no" was really hard on people (family) as if i was rejecting them as people, telling them that i didn't love them or want their help or support. I did, of course, but not hte help/support that they wanted to give. So there it is.
Second, that SIDS deaths have plateaued after a long drop, but that we have also learned how to better determine if a child died due to suffocation/strangulation vs simply attributing it to SIDS. Thus, some of these deaths could have been classified as SIDS in 1984, as opposed to being attributed to strangulation/suffocation.
SIDS scared the heck out of me. I bought all the special sheets for the crib, the sleep sacks, etc. When I was nursing sometimes I was so tired I was tempted to bring my DD into bed with me, but my DH always put his foot down. He said he would never be able to live with himself if he rolled on our child and suffocated her. I respected that. :)
I think SIDS scares every mother.
According to the research around "room sharing" -- sharing a room helps prevent SIDS because mothers are attuned at some weird level to 'hear' and/or respond to the baby's breathing (or lack there of), and according to the sleep lab, mothers will not even wake up but effectively move their baby so that s/he is in a better breathing position. Likewise, the mother's breathing helps the baby develop a normal breathing pattern.
Of course, before the AAP got ahold of it and switched it to "room sharing" this was the evidence for "bed sharing" or 'sleep sharing." But due to the fears around rolling over on the baby, not having sleep bed-sharing arrangements, issues with parents on drugs (such as sleep aids, i'm not saying bad, illicit stuff, just normal stuff) -- it makes sense that the AAP would go with "room sharing" over "bed sharing."
We never had that issue, as my husband agreed with me on the myriad of reasons for choosing bed sharing. Likewise, it's supposed to go "barrier, baby, mother, father" so that the mother is the barrier. Fathers are less attuned typically. It's interesting, honestly. And the barrier is to keep the baby from falling out of the bed of course.
We did the sleep sack for him, but what i wouldn't have given for a sleep sack for myself. I was always so cold. No blankets and stuff. It would be impossible here in NZ, where there's no insulation. It's chilly tonight. I'm wearing a hat in bed. I've got two layers on, plus the winter weight quilt and three wool blankets on that. And all of us in a bed no less, keeping each other warm. still, my nose is cold. LOL
It's gonna be an awesome winter. :D
If I could do it all over again, I would have put the baby in a separate bassinette in our room, rather than putting her in the room down the hall. Of course, who knows, I had completely irrational fears as a new mother. At the time, I envisioned the dog coming in our room and jumping on the bassinette and knocking the baby out, so I never bought one. I'm glad I'm out of the baby stage.
I don't remember having irrational fears.
I do remember being angry/frustrated because I continually felt "pushed" into things. For example, I didn't want a "diaper bag" because they were big and bulky and I already had many other bags. When people asked me about diaper bags (or we would be out shopping and my mother would say "look at these cute diaper bag!") I would be clear and say that I didn't want one, because I had plenty of bags that would work just fine. But one day my mother just shows up with one and wants me to be "excited" about it. I literally just saw a piece of junk that I now had to store or give away.
When I was planning out diapers/EC, I was very clear about which diapers I wanted and how many. I wanted 3 covers and 12 inserts which could be ordered from the EC Store online (a cottage business), and I informed anyone who asked "What do you want in terms of diapers?" I would even provide the web site. One day, my mother shows up with 45 flats from target. She'd unwrapped, washed, and folded them so that I couldn't return them. I then had to go and order the covers (no biggie), but then I had to figure out where to store 45 flats. I figured out how to store them effectively, and I used 12. The rest I put into the bin for my sister's baby, and I think they used them as burp rags or something.
We were clear that we didn't want a stroller, but my MIL *insisted* that we *had to* have a stroller. So, I sent her a link to the stroller that -- if we were to have one, it would be that one. She'd been to scandinavia by this time, and had seen the awesome strollers there, and so we showed her that one. At $1200 for the stroller, she never brought it up again. Had I told my parents this, though, they would have bought that stupid stroller that's not worth $1200 if you ask me. I mean, it's great, but not $1200 great. Yet people still buy the darn things! They are pretty popular.
When I went to buy clothes, I had a "baby's capsule wardrobe." And ultimately, that's all I used. I had 4x more clothing than that -- most of which was ultimately donated.
So for me, I was mostly frustrated. I was frustrated that people kept pushing these needless objects on me that I then had to "feel excited" and "show gratitude for" which really just made me feel unheard, frustrated, and burdened with having to store stuff.
If I could do it all over again, I would have put the baby in a separate bassinette in our room, rather than putting her in the room down the hall. Of course, who knows, I had completely irrational fears as a new mother. At the time, I envisioned the dog coming in our room and jumping on the bassinette and knocking the baby out, so I never bought one. I'm glad I'm out of the baby stage.
LOL. I am still the queen of irrational fears, at least for a couple of weeks post partum. I woke up one night when I had just had James and roused Zach out of bed in a complete panic, sure that I smelled something burning. After a thorough investigation I traced the source of the burning smell to some crumbs in the bottom of the toaster. I had smelled this in a dead sleep from three floors above the offending toast crumbs. :|( The first night I had my oldest home I woke her up once because she was breathing too heavily and once because I wasn't sure she was breathing. Zach made some joke about her not being able to do anything right and I realized I was being paranoid. It's a big thing, though, realizing that someone small and completely helpless depends on you for everything and who the heck am I to be trusted with that kind of responsibility. My post-partum self is pretty primal and animalistic sometimes. Kind of hyper-aware and on guard.
It's a little better now only because I already know I'm bat**** crazy right now so I don't take my fears quite as seriously and I know they will fade. rrrrr <<<<They're coming to take me away.... :~)
fidgiegirl
5-17-12, 5:51pm
Zoe, that's how I feel!! Part of me just dreads the crap!!!!!!!!!! SO MUCH STUFF!!!! Ack.
fidgie,
you can keep it in check. for real. :D
Zoebird. I love being a mom, too. Parenting (in general) is my thing, and because I enjoy it (greatly), it makes for a more enjoyable and rewarding experience.
Stella. The "monkey" comment is too much! LMAO! Re: your dad, so happy to know he's OK now and has mobility. I can't imagine going through early life without having full-mobility. Even as a kid (on sports day), I used to feel so sad for kids who were wheelchair bound. They'd just sit there and watch everyone else having fun. Bothers me to this day. Nonetheless, it's a shame more moms aren't more supportive (of one another) instead of being so critical/judgmental. Then again, I've never been one for competition.
Flowerseverywhere. My apologies for taking your post wrong. Text-entry, doesn't hold a candle to a RL (real life) sit-down discussion, does it... something I wish we could have when we wanted to. I'd call it SL Day, and along with conversation at it's best, coffee, tea, juice, fresh-baked cookies, squares, and muffins would be served, as would a hardy lunch consisting of homemade soup, a variety of tasty cheeses, and fresh oven-baked rolls. To ensure long-lasting enjoyment, SL Days, would be held quarterly.
Cattledog. I second the bassinette idea. I did this a little, but given the opportunity to repeat, I'd do it a whole lot. Both kitchen time and sewing room time would see baby (in bassinette) close-by.
room sharing is a great option.
i just didn't like the idea of DS growing out of something and then we have an object that we would have to rehome. cosleeping or bedsharing goes to my simplicity mindset.
that being said, had I felt or believed that a bassinet was necessary, I certainly would have gotten one. :) my mother kept trying to get me one, and i kept saying "no no no" until we got there. I told her "when we have the baby, we will see how i feel." I felt confident sleeping with him, and that was that.
I used to occasionally bring an unhappy baby back to bed with me (when my husband was away on business). I did it more out of desperation, but did the little stinkers ever sleep well with mommy! I'd rub their backs for a few minutes once I had them settled in, and between my touch and the warm cozy bed, they'd be out like a light.
yeah, DS has always been a great sleeper. He was doing 5-6 hours within the first month, which really freaked us out. In fact, I remember (and have a journal about) asking my doctor whether I needed to wake him since I was supposed to "make sure he eats every 2-3 hours" and this was based on the fact that DS had that rough first week. So, we get him on the breast with nipple shield, got him cosleeping, and one night there, he kept sleeping and kept sleeping and so I woke him up and then fed him back to sleep (about 10 seconds), and then let him go and it was something like 5 hours (which is "through the night" at that age).
I can't say that it was because of cosleeping -- it may just have been 'him" -- but yeah. I think that's partly why we got so much sleep, even though we hardly got any sleep. You know what I mean. :)
Homeschoolers tend to be kind of prickly about this. We usually don't bring up what our kids are doing academically, because - well, one of the reasons we homeschool is because we want to avoid that sort of competition and pressure! I think some are reluctant to talk about what their kids are reading or doing for fun because they don't want to seen as either slackers or braggers. It's too bad, because I would like to know what works/doesn't work for other parents, but asking is seen as intrusive.
This was one of the main reasons I stayed away from the local homeschool co-ops. They were all so competitive - between the kids and then you add the pridemamas into the mix. I just didn't have time for that sort of 'who's best this week' stuff.
I know exactly what you mean, ZB.
I would have done the same as you, Float On.
I don't have any children, but a friend of mine has told me some unsettling stories from the various child-parent activities/groups she attends with her 20-month old daughter. She says everyone likes to have their say on the *best* way to raise their child and likes to make a thing out of how advanced or talented their kid is. It all sounds harrowingly competitive!
For me, before I had kids, the "stuff" that everyone tells you a kid MUST HAVE was really stressing me out. And not just the stuff but about how you Must Behave as a mother and the things that you Absolutely Have To Do.
It stresses me out to think of this too. My partner and I would like to have children in the next few years and honestly, it's the pressure from OUTSIDE that causes me the most worry and stress (and in relation to getting married/having a wedding)... so many EXPECTATIONS. Unnecessary ones. I'm even worried that my in-laws will look down on me for attempting to use cloth diapers and not wanting to feed my kid juice or sugar after every meal. AND I DON'T EVEN HAVE A KID YET. Is this worry all self-inflicted?!
I really admire people like you, Zoebird, who can filter out all these external pressures and expectations and just do what they themselves see fit, and deviate from "the norm".
One little thing that perplexes me is the number of assorted cots and cribs that you're expected to have for a new baby. My SIL (and apparently this is normal) has a 'Moses basket', a carrycot/car seat, a fixed high-sided crib, a travel cot... the kid grew out of the Moses basket in 6 months and that travel cot is not at all suited for travel (it's one of those huge ones that has folding legs). Man alive, what a FAFF. Scrap the Moses basket and fluff up some pillows to surround the kid with on an empty patch of floor, sheesh.
All you have to do, really, is find your center about it. Know that the choices that you make are right/good/ok, and that you don't have to be like everyone else. And, you can defend your choices with "This is how we choose to do things, it's not up for discussion" which worked well for me with the ILs. DH ultimately told his mother (loudly): "Mom, *I am the parent, now back off!*"
All you have to do, really, is find your center about it. Know that the choices that you make are right/good/ok, and that you don't have to be like everyone else. And, you can defend your choices with "This is how we choose to do things, it's not up for discussion" which worked well for me with the ILs. DH ultimately told his mother (loudly): "Mom, *I am the parent, now back off!*"
+1 to this! IME most people eventually just let go and assume that if you haven't killed the kid by now, you probably have some idea what you are doing. Usually by about a year. There are some pushy types that don't give but those people are already bugging you about how you live your life. :) You know the type.
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