Pit Bulls

[fidgiegirl]

How are there so many? Petfinder is just full of them! I don't understand where they all come from when they seem so unwanted.

[Miss Cellane]

Some are from people who want their dog to have just one litter, for the kids, you know, so educational. Some are from breeders who sell the dogs as fighting bait. Some are from puppy mills, because there are people who think owning a pit bull makes them look cool or mean or whatever. And there are just a lot of irresponsible people who get a dog and don't spay or neuter and let the dog run free, because that's what dogs are supposed to do. How can your pit bull protect your house if it is locked up inside the house all the time?

I have nothing against the breed itself--I have known two wonderful pit bulls that friends have owned. But because so many pit bulls are poorly trained or not trained at all or worse, trained by amateurs to be guard dogs, there have been some terrible incidents. Those incidents make the news, and people become afraid of every single dog in that breed. I know of a golden retriever who bit a child twice, unprovoked, but you don't hear of that breed getting the same bad press.

[iris lily]

Here in my city my Ghetto neighbors want 'em and breed 'em. Very few people earn the depth of my disdain as do these persons.

One of my worst memories is seeing one of their dead pitbulls tied to a post outside of my vets office. *ssholes.

My friend and the national head of Bulldog Rescue loves pits and says she'd take them over any dog--smart and loyal and very people oriented. Me, I'm not that charmed by them but I think they are nice dogs like many nice dogs. Their musculature is amazing.

[bae]

How are there so many? Petfinder is just full of them! I don't understand where they all come from when they seem so unwanted.

Morons raise or buy them to enhance their low self-esteem, often train them to fight, abuse them, and then the dog comes up for adoption when the moron abandons the dog or goes to jail or their trailer burns down.

Poor dogs. A very nice breed, ruined by people who shouldn't be allowed to raise mice.

[flowerseverywhere]

I would never have one around children, and when I see a family who owns one my heart is in my throat. One innocent move that threatens the dog and they can attack to kill. Not their fault, those traits have been bred in. Last year there were about thirty of them rescued and at the SPCA all scarred up from fighting up for adoption. I was shocked. I am as much of a dog lover as anyone but they should have been put down immediately.

[puglogic]

I've known some normal people who like their loyalty & personality, and get off on their muscular build and power. Then they haven't got a clue what to do when the dog turns out to show dangerous behavior, besides keep them away from all other dogs and children for the rest of their lives. Truthfully, although I've known some really wonderful pit bulls, I've never known a pit bull owner that I had any respect for.....even among upstanding citizens, it seems many get these dogs for all the wrong reasons, especially as bae says, an ego boost ("hey, look at me with my cool powerful dog") Then they make all kinds of excuses for their dogs, as with a local pet supply store - a very good store - that blamed a pit bull attack inside the store on the "negative energy and body language" or some such crap. I am the pack leader for my dogs and they know that all the negative energy in the world doesn't matter: you don't mix it up with other dogs, period.

Cesar Milan, for all the good he tries to do, doesn't do anyone any favors imho by showing how wonderful pit bulls can be, because 99.9% of the people who then trot out to buy one will not have his skills, and it can create a real mess.

[iris lily]

I've known some normal people who like their loyalty & personality, and get off on their muscular build and power. Then they haven't got a clue what to do when the dog turns out to show dangerous behavior, besides keep them away from all other dogs and children for the rest of their lives. Truthfully, although I've known some really wonderful pit bulls, I've never known a pit bull owner that I had any respect for.....even among upstanding citizens, it seems many get these dogs for all the wrong reasons, especially as bae says, an ego boost ("hey, look at me with my cool powerful dog") Then they make all kinds of excuses for their dogs, as with a local pet supply store - a very good store - that blamed a pit bull attack inside the store on the "negative energy and body language" or some such crap. I am the pack leader for my dogs and they know that all the negative energy in the world doesn't matter: you don't mix it up with other dogs, period.

Cesar Milan, for all the good he tries to do, doesn't do anyone any favors imho by showing how wonderful pit bulls can be, because 99.9% of the people who then trot out to buy one will not have his skills, and it can create a real mess.

I agree although rescue owners can be good. Randy Grim's Stray Rescue of St, Louis, an organization that rescues street dogs only--no owner turn-ins--gets mostly pits. Stray Rescue has grown beyond my neighborhood but they still have their original building on my block and there is a contstant parade of pits being walk by the volunteers. Some are scary. One in particular, Jewel, was a rescue dog from Hurricane Katrina. She lived in the shelter for years and we neighbors were always told "don't look her in the eye" and all volunteers who walked her had to be "Jewel certified." I was not surprised to hear that Jewel was finally put down due to temperament, apparently she went after someone.

Some of the dogs are so damaged by their jerk owners that there's no other option for them.

When Cesar Milan came to town some years ago he took dogs from Randy's group to show, on stage, how they reacted to commands and direction. Milan is really amazing. He's a short guy but has a commanding presence. He did inspire me to grab a street dog who was living on my property and take him in until I turned him over to Stray Rescue.

[Float On]

A lot are being given up because some cities now have a PitBull fee. They must be registered and a fee paid to own one.
I'm not one to be afraid of dogs - but when we first moved into our house the neighbor across the way had two of them. I was cornered by them on maybe 6 occassions - thought I was going to be attacked in my own yard (they use to run here on my property before we built our house so they thought I was invading their turf). Saw them attack each other several times too - and they were liter mates! Thank goodness they were old even then and both died within 2 years.

[rosarugosa]

I am having trouble understanding the surgical alteration of ears and tails. What is the thought process that leads one to think that a perfectly beautiful animal should have half its ears and tail lopped off? It defies comprehension. Makes me think of foot-binding.

[treehugger]

This is such a sad, complex problem. So many causes, so may ongoing problems.

I volunteered in a county animal shelter for a year and a half (till I couldn't stand it any more!) and there were so many issues from and because of the large percentage of pit mixes brought in. Even though I met a lot of really nice, sweet pit mixes while I was there, I certainly understand the general feeling that they aren't good candidates for a family pet. So, they start out as maybe 85% of the dogs brought in, and then what happens is that any dog that isn't a pit mix gets adopted quickly, so that the available adoptables are probably more than 90% pit mix at any one time (I'm talking about this specific shelter I volunteered in), which just makes the problem worse, and that that just leaves more and more pit mixes left behind to eventually be euthanized.

I think a lot of people who came in to do the right thing and adopt (rather than buy from a breeder) got discouraged with the selection and went elsewhere to find the family dog. Hopefully to breed rescues, but probably also some go to breeders.

Certainly my county has its share of people raising pits to fight or to be poorly trained, dangerous guard dogs, and that is one source of the surplus. But there are also plenty of well-meaning, uninformed people who simply don't get their animals fixed and allow litters of unwanted pit mixes to be born.

Sad, sad, sad, and only getting worse.

For a different perspective on pit mixes, see if you can find the TV series Dog Town (it aired on National Geographic; I watched it on Netflix), about the Michael Vick fighting pits rescued by Best Friends in Utah. Best Friends is an absolutely amazing no-kill sanctuary that takes in last chance animals of all species and first attempts to adopt them out, or rehabilitate and then adopt them out, or, last resort, gives the animal a safe home for the rest of its life. The stories of the rehabilitated Michael Vick dogs are so inspiring and really make you think about the nature of these animals and what we think we know.

Kara

[jennipurrr]

I am having trouble understanding the surgical alteration of ears and tails. What is the thought process that leads one to think that a perfectly beautiful animal should have half its ears and tail lopped off? It defies comprehension. Makes me think of foot-binding.

In fighting, it serves the purpose of there is less for the other dog to grab hold of. I assume when people do these alterations and don't fight the dog, it is to have the "appearance" of a tough, fighting dog :( One of my animal rescue friends has a sweet pit bull whose ears were cut off with scissors :(

Here there is a huge problem with pit bulls being taken care of badly and abandoned or just generally not cared for. They are the trendy aggressive dog du jour right now so all the wrong people have/want them. They are different from even breeds like German Shepards or Rottweilers in that their bite can kill another animal or human more easily and they often seem driven to kill if they do become agressive. They aren't a breed that should be owned by anyone except an experienced handler...and yet like others in the thread, I don't know of one person I have ever met who has one who has truly gotten the dog the appropriate training and taken the right precautions...except for my friend above, she is a dog whisperer. I fostered a pit bull years ago who was a love bug...most of the time...he was 19 lbs when i got him and grew to 60 lbs of pure muscle. He was extremely food aggressive and could not be fed around my other dogs as I truly feared for their safety. He was placed with an owner who was a fairly experienced dog owner, no other dogs, just horses, but sometimes I feel uneasy thinking about if everything turned out ok with him. The shelter here has a policy of euthanizing all pit bulls and I don't consider it a bad policy at this time. People wanting them are usually iffy and the dogs themselves have often been severely mistreated. We have 5000+ animals euthanized a year sadly, so I think spots can be made for better adoption candidates.

[fidgiegirl]

so I think spots can be made for better adoption candidates.

I think it's sad, but I am also coming to think that no-kill just sucks up resources into one animal that could relieve suffering for many.

I am also starting to question if rescue helps the overpopulation problem or exacerbates it. I wonder if some people, particularly breeders, just turn over their unwanted animals and poof! Responsibility is off their hands. And then there is the question of rescue groups going to puppy mill auctions, which I disagree with. I feel badly for the individual animals and their suffering - obviously, it's going to be heartbreaking to anyone - but I have read that some of the mill owners breed more dogs for auction knowing that rescues will be lined up as customers. It just makes the whole problem worse.

On the other hand, I think rescues do a good service, because especially with the economy, good owners are getting stuck in situations where they can't keep their animals. Or look at my baby doggy (who's 12 :D), his mama couldn't keep him anymore cuz she got too sick, and the family didn't want him. It was good he could go to rescue and make it into a good home rather than having to be put down or kept and abused.

I am feeling more drawn toward spay/neuter campaigns as a way to help. Last week we gave a small donation to a group (http://www.arottalove.net/blog/2012/05/go-grassroots-this-week-with-arlp/)that is doing a spay clinic for pits in a low-income neighborhood. But it's not as cute as the rescue side. There is another spay/neuter group, Kindest Cut, (http://kindestcutmn.com/) in the Twin Cities that I follow on FB . . . should set up a monthly donation to one of these orgs.

This interesting project (http://www.mckeeproject.org/) in Costa Rica has no shelters as part of its plan to help with the stray dog problem in Costa Rica. They are adamant about it, because absent a culture of pet adoptions, shelters would just turn into killing factories. They have had great success in refining a spay procedure to be short enough to use a more economical or shorter-lasting anesthetic (not a vet here, so not sure if I'm explaining right, but that's the general idea - speed it up so you don't need as much or as strong of the stuff). Vets still make money, people can afford to have their dogs altered, and then once they have some money in the dog, then it's "worth" something, so to speak, and is treated better. And I have to say, I did not see the stray dog problems in Costa Rica last summer as I have seen in other Latin American nations.

San Juan has a trap-neuter-release in the National Park area of El Morro (http://www.saveagato.org/). It's reduced the feral cat population dramatically, and is a no-kill approach.

I knew one pit once, and it was very sweet 99.99% of the time, except that once. In this case, no one got hurt, but it was pretty eye opening, because she had never shown even the slightest hint of aggression. I knew then I would never own a pit myself.

And what is the difference between a pit and a Staffordshire Terrier?

[fidgiegirl]

Well this thread made me go make a donation to an even different organization yet, Minnesota Spay Neuter Assistance Program (MNSNAP). (http://www.mnsnap.org/) And I also put in a volunteer form.

[iris lily]

...I am also starting to question if rescue helps the overpopulation problem or exacerbates it. I wonder if some people, particularly breeders, just turn over their unwanted animals and poof! Responsibility is off their hands. And then there is the question of rescue groups going to puppy mill auctions, which I disagree with. ...

If breed rescues are doing it right they are

1) not bidding at auctions--exceptions might be warranted in certain circumstances
2) taking breeder turn ins judiciously
3) promoting rescue within their breed clubs and always looking at AKC registration papers when they are available, to identify breeders of dogs in rescue and demand that those breeders step up

I live in the puppy mill capitol of the U.S. and the mills are rampant. Still, our breed rescue gets only a few call per month about old kennel dogs. I suspect that the majority of them are shot. Just a few weeks ago we got a call from a rural Missouri breeder who wanted to turned in 3 old kennel dogs. These dogs are hard to place because they are 6 - 8 years old and have poor sanitation habits, they will never learn house training; they may be poorly socialized. We declined to take them because we were full up.

M third bulldog was a mill dog from whom we went down into mill land to get. Her uterus had burst and she could no longer produce at the age of 4. Fortunately for her, she got out of there.

It's hard for me to believe that people do not, by now, know that you do not ever buy a puppy from a pet store, but apparently people are still doing that.

[iris lily]

The free market is the real problem.

If people want a particular breed in spades, there simply is not enough "product" from responsible breeders to fill that demand. So, the buyers have to go to commercial breeders and mills. Curb the demand, that curbs production.

The platitudes about "finding a responsible breeder yadda yadda" is pretty much bunk since 80% of the breeders in my breed are mills, backyard breeders, and commercial enterprises. The "quality" breeders make only a few puppies once every year or two years and their puppies are spoken for long in advance.

[bae]

If people want a particular breed in spades, there simply is not enough "product" from responsible breeders to fill that demand. So, the buyers have to go to commercial breeders and mills. Curb the demand, that curbs production.


Perhaps the thing I am most upset with Obama about is getting a Portuguese Water Dog. I had a nice pair from good lines, took me quite some time to arrange to get them, now you can find them on Craigslist :-(

[flowerseverywhere]

Bae, I would never have thought to look for a dog on Craigslist. I looked at our pet listings. Lots of cats, some mixed breeds and many pit bulls, rotweillers and for some reason bulldogs. I never see bulldogs out and about so I was surprised by this.

[fidgiegirl]

Craigslist makes me mad about animals. You are not allowed to give them away on there, and you can't sell them, but you are allowed to charge a "rehoming fee." So there are people who just need to get rid of their cat or whatever and trying to charge this huge rehoming fee! Well, that ain't rehoming, it's selling! Grrrrrrrrr! See, in that case I'd rather the animal was just surrendered to a rescue organization. I get that allowing the fee is to keep people from picking up these free pets and hoarding them, or jabbing them in a lab (I would think anyone doing animal testing needs more "controlled subjects" than just getting them off of CL, but I suppose nothing is impossible . . .), or fighting them, but the whole thing is just weird.

Now I'm suspicious of two local rescue groups on Petfinder. We have been cruising Petfinder (well, ok, I have ;) ) for a number of months with my eye to a new doggy. One rescue just started listing animals, and we went and met one of their dogs last week. Well, now I see that the same girl is also the contact for a different rescue group? Not impossible that she'd volunteer with two groups, I suppose, but kind of weird. She was very nice, but there is something not right about the whole thing. So now I'm not really interested in working with either of those groups. Thankfully there are plenty of other dogs with other groups.

[fidgiegirl]

Perhaps the thing I am most upset with Obama about is getting a Portuguese Water Dog. I had a nice pair from good lines, took me quite some time to arrange to get them, now you can find them on Craigslist :-(

But if it's not Portuguese Water Dogs, then it's Chihuahuas because of Legally Blonde and/or Paris Hilton, or it's Dalmatians because of 101 Dalmatians, or now it's the hypoallergenic (really cute) mutts, some with indecipherable names. It'll always be one breed or another.

[iris lily]

fidgie, it's true that anyone can set themselves up as a "rescue" group. One couple in our state were key players in bulldog rescue until their continuing unethical behavior and poor dog treatment caused them to be booted. Now they are doing "private rescue" outside of the official sanction of Bulldog Club of America. That translates as $$$ for them.

I think that most organizations that have large dogs, especially pits, black street dogs, and mixes of the two, are not making any money.

The organizations that have lots of breeds but all in the range of toy and small mixed in with a few very popular large breeds--they are probably making money. "Rescue " is the trend du jour so whoever can use that label will make it work for them.

[fidgiegirl]

The organizations that have lots of breeds but all in the range of toy and small mixed in with a few very popular large breeds--they are probably making money. "Rescue " is the trend du jour so whoever can use that label will make it work for them.

Well, this is what they have. Sad. I feel like there should be a way to flag them or something so Petfinder can investigate. They are owned by Discovery Channel now so you'd think they'd have the resources to keep it on the up and up.