View Full Version : What is your old age plan?
So many of my friends (fifty-somethings) are struggling with how to care for their aged parents, finding that neither they nor their parents have the resources to provide the mounting medical and caregiving costs--to say nothing of the emotional trauma involved. The logistics alone can be daunting, with parents stuck in unsaleable houses in suburbs or rural areas where you need a car to get around. I could go on and on.
It's making me very reluctantly try to face the fact that I ought to think about my own old age, if I'm UN-lucky enough to have one. I've had DNR and AND in place for years, but from what I read in articles like New York Magazine's horrifying article "I Love My Mother and I Wish She Were Dead...and I Suspect She Does Too" (Google it, you'll find it)--from what I read in this and from what my friends say, it sounds like DNR and AND do NOT address the issue of long term frailty.
I've thought a lot about Long Term Care Insurance and even gotten as far as doing some research on it, but because of my health history it's unlikely I could buy it, or if I could it would come with so many restrictions and such a high cost that it wouldn't be worth it---not to mention, well, I WILL mention it: actually collecting on these LTC policies is not easy. You have to have a relative who has the time and tenacity to spend many hours docmenting and phoning.
I'm sorry this is such a downer of a post. I'm hoping to hear some feedback, comments, and thoughts on this issue.
The simple answer, which I hear a lot is "Oh, I'll just pick my own exit strategy." -- Again, easier said than done.
Thanks for giving me a place to talk about this--I hope some of you will respond.
I have been searching for LTC insurance since Feburary, no luck. There was a good report on NPR two weeks ago that left me even more {{{confused}}}. This also lead me to understand why I am not getting responses back from companies who are suppose to offer it. Many have dropped out of the game, it is not profitable. It is not a cookie cutter insurance like auto or home can be. I really am not sure what to do.
My folks have had it for almost 20 years now. Mom's company has changed hands a few times. Her rates just went up 45%. NPR report mentioned that few keep it to the end when it is needed, as rates go up and become unaffordable.
SO looking for suggestions also, here.
DH and I are in our 40s and watching our parents and other relatives age and make these choices. My grandparents (well, now just one of them) have been in assisted living for about 10 years. It makes me crazy to see what their life is like and how much they pay for it. Not a choice I would make. Seriously, I think part-time in-home care, even paid, would be more cost-effective and definitely more pleasant - but I haven't priced it.
My aunt recently asked me to review a quote for long-term care insurance that she had received. It was pricey - something like $2800/year (she is 65 and in excellent health with no serious risk factors), price can increase at will, no guarantees. She opted to go without and continue saving on her own. Instead she plans to continue focusing on health and wellness. She and my parents have moved in recent year and selected houses that had all necessities on the entry floor, with no steps to get in/out of the house. However, they did not consider the driving issue and would absolutely need cars or someone to drive them.
I expect that with the coming explosion of the retirement age group there will be more services available (for hire) such as couriers, errand runners, drivers for medical appointments, etc.
No question that paying privately for part time help and staying in your own home is going to be cheaper that so called "assisted" care, where they charge you for every single service AND charge you a lot of money as a base cost every month. You still need someone to evaluate and monitor the caregiver and to coordinate the delivery services, transportation, etc. If your mind is working at good capacity you can manage all this yourself, perhaps---but even if you are in good menatl health, a case of pneumonia can wipe out your ability to plan, monitor, and manage these caregivers---I had pneumonia recently myself and was too out of it to make anything happen. Fortunately, I have family right here now, but that may not continue, almost certainly will not continue for long.
Yossarian
6-15-12, 11:00am
Iceberg rides.
leslieann
6-15-12, 11:12am
Every time this topic comes up I see it as a whole whack of business opportunities. Older people need younger people to help them out. And middle aged children need younger people to help manage care for the older people and basically keep watch, especially if there is geographic (or emotional) distance. So younger people who are self motivated and enjoy the company of older folks could pretty readily provide a service that would be well compensated. Sort of like a case manager for the older person...anyway, it isn't for me. And I am not "younger" by anyone's estimation.
I like the iceberg approach but would chicken out when the time came. Also, if you have read "Still Alice" you know that it doesn't work to create an exit plan from diseases such as Alzheimer's. That's where in home care no longer is viable.
We don't have a plan for aging. We talk about it but we just don't really dig into it at all. Avoidance, I guess.
ApatheticNoMore
6-15-12, 11:34am
Also, if you have read "Still Alice" you know that it doesn't work to create an exit plan from diseases such as Alzheimer's. That's where in home care no longer is viable
Haven't read the book, but my dad used to pay for long term care insurance, then he got Alzheimers and I'm sure forgot to pay the premiums! So much for THAT strategy!!! How's that for bitter catch 22. My mom takes on the burden of caretaking him and I'm sure will destroy herself in the process.
I've been told I should buy long term care insurance while I'm still young, but if the premiums can go up at will anyway, does it even matter if I start when I'm young, if it will just be unaffordable due to premium increases in a few decades anyway? I mean I'm not really locking in a rate, right?
I think the taking care of your health strategy is really great policy if you are serious enough (Jack LaLanne :)). Most people simply don't take care of themselves and it increases the burden on everyone else. It's by far the cheapest and one of the best strategies. Serious means really healthy eating, weight bearing exercise to maintain bones, and serious stress reduction. But it won't guarantee you don't get Alzheimers (lessen the chances though but perhaps you have every single Alzheimers gene - personally I suspect so), another bad disease, or that your last year or so you aren't completely falling apart (most people are by then regardless).
Thinking about living in stages when one plans is key, I believe. Mobility allows for more options. We have a one floor house plan and hope to be independent and driving for some years yet.
Our investments and savings will pay for LTC for a considerable period of time since our federal government old age plan contributes to the basic level of care.
In between those two options comes the challenge. This is where most families run into problems due to lack of decision making proactively.
I hope that we will move into an apartment when we are no longer able to maintain a garden and the grounds. Where will we find that apartment though? In our familiar neighbourhood with familar health providers but limited transit or near our DD's with unknown health providers and good transit?
I don't have a plan of my own at this point, but we are living in a multigenerational household in part because it provides my Dad with a decent plan. He will have very minimal retirement expenses, mostly just his car insurance, iPhone and incidentals. The trade off here is that we will pay the bills (utilities, phone, taxes, etc.) and we get the leg up of being mortgage free from a very young age. We all moved in together a couple of years ago when I was 31 and DH was 27. Dad's social security and pensions adds up to about 45K a year and he will keep his part-time job as sacristen of his church, so his nest egg savings will mostly remain untouched if it is needed for medical expenses. Dad will also have seven people (DH, me and our 5 children) immediately available for help. I am a SAHM so I am pretty much always available.
We've done a lot of planning in the purchase of our home. Yes, it's more than we need and the mortage takes too much of our income, but in the end we have a lot of security that could keep us in our home much longer. To start with we live in a single level home, so there is no need to do stairs. There is 300 sq ft of finished and heated basement with kitchenette that can serve as private living quarters for a caregiver (they would just need to share the bathroom on the main floor).
We are on a dead end street which opens onto a rail trail which leads downtown and gives us access to the community theater, library, doctors, dentist, hospital, restarants, church, lots of small business shopping, pharmacy and a major supermarket . This is managed by the city and cleared of snow so you can walk or bike it all year round. Our city also put in new bus stops and one of them is just one street over from us. So I walk to the end of my road, over one street and there is the bus stop. This will take me just about anywhere I need to go. There used to be a small family owned market off the rail trail just 1/8th of a mile from my house (walkable) but the big chains put them out of business.
Right now dh and I (45 and 43 respectively) are doing all we can to get healthy. We are exercising more and joined our local gym (which we can bike to on a state park trail system that covers 325 acres. The trail head is 1/8th of a mile from my house and the bike ride to the gym is two miles each way.) We just purchased good bikes to get around town with and we hope to greatly improve our health now, so that later we can remain in our home longer. In the event that we find the house too much to handle, dh and I have already discussed moving to a small apartment right downtown, where we can access everything by bus if need be.
One major plus is that we have a good sized college with a strong nursing program and plenty of upper classmen and grad students who would love to save on room and board in exchange for doing some assisted living type care. This is where our finished basement comes in handy. We are on the bus line and the college is right off of Main street, so it's really easy to access the college from our home. Three parking spaces for cars means off street parking for the student as well (major plus in the city).
Big time WIN-WIN for everyone.
This sounds like a very sustainable and enjoyable way to live. Do yo mind sharing your location?
We live in the midwest pretty standard city of Indianapolis. It is hard to list all the things that are good for seniors.
Con: City is car designed. It takes imagination and creativity to live without a car.
Pro: Cheap. Mom is on SSI and a tiny pension. Income around 1200 a month. She can qualify for subsidized housing where rent is limited to 30% of income. However, we are going to subsidize her rent and we got her a one bedroom senior apartment with full kitchen on the first floor with laundry, mail and garbage indoors. Community room and sun rooms in all buildings and each building has a resident advisor (think supervisor) to assist with building issues. There is a 6 day a week van so she does not have to have a car and we found a family practice doctor across the street. She can catch a city bus at the entrance and come downtown for a senior fare where we can pick her up. This whole thing with rent, all utilities except for cable, free wifi, bus, health area with equipment for $700 a month. She could even have a pet if she wanted.
Her HMO is with the closest hospital which is a brand new building with full services. Her hearing aid company is a few blocks from her house and if she wanted, she could walk to the pharmacy a couple of blocks away also.
We just are so pleased with the location, the services and the ease of dealing with all the housing concerns. Best of all we got a free month of rent due to an open house special. I would have no problem living in such a housing type but would need that extra 2nd bedroom for stuff and husband.:D
ps: We just had another big affordable apartment complex plan come online in Indy. I think there are three or four big ones going in downtown. Yippee.
awakenedsoul
6-15-12, 6:38pm
Great thread. My cottage is paid off, and it's one level, 567 square feet. My utilities are very low, and I can grow most of my own food. I've always been very active and healthy, and I plan to stay that way. I walk or bike with my dogs every morning, and I do yoga at night before bed. I'm not doctor oriented-I have catastrophic health insurance, but I do preventitive care. I avoid stressful people and situations. I don't do any of the routine health checks, and I use Zellies for preventive dentistry. Seniors can ride the bus here for free. I live a block from the bus stop. We also have Dial a Ride. They will pick seniors up at their home, as long as you book it a day in advance. I'm three miles from the library, post office, grocery store, pharmacy, etc. My parents are "self insured." They invested very well and they live beneath their means. They plan to hire in home care nurse if they need it. My dad found an assisted living place he likes. As the above post mentioned, I think a lot of people move in to those places way too early. Many adult children my age of wealthy parents push them in so that they can control the finances. It's so sad...
Self care really makes a difference. Fortunately, I started eating well and doing yoga when I was 18. I've kept it up, and really believe in living a healthy lifestyle. Things like tai chi and qui gong really appeal to me, too. There are people who age really well, and I hope to be one of them.
Legal guardianship is the way to go -- with managing trusts, insurance, and medical decisions. Having a non-family member is really important because their distance from the emotional side of things will make for clear thinking and clear management of the situation.
Our current process is that should we drop dead or have a medical issue, the local lawyer has the power of attorney to make medical and related decisions based on that. We have a guardian ad litem for Hawk (friends of the family) until the inheritors come to pick up DS. All of our assets (whatever remains) goes into a trust for DS, managed by a lawyer here in NZ and a second lawyer in the US when DS ends up in the US.
There is business insurance, and a person who is assigned to manage the business until either A. the business is sold and the assets combined into DS's trust, or B. the manager decides (with the lawyer) to maintain the business and grow it until DS would be set to inherit it and he decides what to do with it. Our preference is B, but burdening someone with a business is a big ask -- so the lawyer and manager can come to decisions based on that, and it's the same lawyer who manages the trust.
If we live to old age, we'll transition our assets to living trust -- which will be managed by the lawyer. The medical/etc will also be managed by a lawyer, which includes LTC insurance and similar. If DS chooses to provide housing/care for us, then that is up to him, but the plan at this point is to continue as best as possible.
If I have the capacity and where-with-all, and my husband as well, and we are ready. . . then we'll simply go out into the world and expose ourselves, rather than struggle through frailty etc.
But, our best case scenario is that we are taking good care of ourselves -- eating right, exercising, keeping the mind active, no plans for retiring, etc -- and then if we're lucky we'll get sick and die within 2 weeks of getting sick. Usually it's a minor infection that goes into sepsis and done.
This is going to sound strange in a New Age sort of way, but I have known in my heart that I am not going to live to be an old woman. I'm healthy today (age 57), no chronic illnesses, no risky behaviors, but it's something I've had a very strong feeling about for 10+ years now.
I still have life insurance and savings, am paying down debts, and moving forward with life plans - but - am not making any plans beyond the next 5 years.
Interesting question, cjones!
As a bit of a preface, my brother (close to my age) has a severe case of a debilitating autoimmune disease. Right now he can still live at home with major assistance from my mother and several PCAs (Personal Care Assistants). My wife is a social worker. So we've got a decent picture of how public and private help works for those in need.
First, providers have learned that it is far cheaper to offer assistance services in place than in a group home/assisted living/nursing home. That even includes home modifications, like lowering countertops or installing roll-in showers. Around here they even will do that for some renters on the theory that, when they move on, they will leave behind an adapted living place for someone else in need. The downside of that, however, is that the competitive price of in-home care is achieved in large part by paying PCAs very low wages. Around here that's 10-15 dollars per hour with no benefits. Granted, it's more than minimum wage and it's not terrible duty in most cases. But it does take some training to handle different disabilities and it can be challenging to deal with people in chronic pain or with mental disabilities. And it does mean that PCAs typically have other jobs, decreasing their availability, or that they will rotate out of the job fairly quickly when better-paying jobs appear.
Second, it is getting harder and harder to fund the needs of Baby Boomers and post-Boomers as we/they age -- publicly or privately. Not to get too deeply into the politics of it, but public funding to assist aging populations is not popular with some key voting blocs and American demographics continue to promise fewer working Americans and more retired and disabled Americans who will need expensive care. As for the private sector, a couple of posters here already have demonstrated that insurance and the like is drying up as actuaries realize the numbers just don't work at premiums people can pay.
My wife and I are in our mid-50s and in good health. We live within the limits of of one of the biggest cities in Minnesota. Several buses stop within a few blocks, and within a mile there is a supermarket, our family-practice doctor, a hospital, some pharmacies, a thrift store, and a hardware store, so we won't be truly stuck if we cannot drive. Our house offers largely one-level living; the only reason to go downstairs is storage and laundry, and we could move the laundry upstairs if we had to. The house is already somewhat wheelchair accessible and could be made fully accessible (though probably not to best practices). So our plan is to be here for a while. The only thing that might change that is an opportunity to move "up the hill" to a condo which is even closer to everything but the medical providers, but that will require a recovered housing market and we're not counting on that.
Beyond that, it's up to retirement funds to see us through. We both have pensions from other jobs; we chose not to exercise survivor provisions in those in favor of annuities, but that's an option for some people. I have an outside life-insurance policy which is convertible to long-term care, though that will not apply to my wife if she needs care. We have some assets. As with retirement in general, it's hard to know how much money is enough. We're hopeful that we have at least a good start -- and that people in the U.S. -- especially as more and more post-Boomers join the "Sandwich" generation -- realize what a mess health care and retirement has become here and works to define and/or reprioritize government spending to accommodate reality.
These are really interesting replies. I agree 100% with the healthy lifestyle and keeping physically fit. What scares me is that my mother was also a very healthy eater and exerciser--yet she ended up almost completely immobilized -- long, upsetting story. She also had severe lung issues. She was brave enough, thank God, to decide at a certain point not to be hospitalized when the next infection hit. She was moved to hospice and died a painless, dignified death. Had she not made the that decision she would probably be completely immobile at this point--and possibly coping with hospital-induced dementia in addition. She saved herself and her entire family from a terrible fate. I hope I will have the courage to "know when to fold 'em."
One trend I'm seeing here is that many of the posters are in their 50's and are ALREADY living in sustainable situations that will work for them for a very long time. I hope that this will become more of a mainstream trend---it seems like a smart way to plan a life.
Well, I'm 60, and the grannies/great-aunts in my family were pretty long-lived, so I'm hoping I can be like my great-aunt, who died at 92 living at home and taking only an aspirin a day, totally engaged in the world until she died rather suddenly. I don't want to be like my grandmother, who had a slow decline into dementia and died in a nursing home. But none of us can predict our own outcomes. My own health is what I would consider very good at this point--no chronic illness, no aches and pains, fairly energetic (nothing that making a better effort at regular exercise wouldn't cure).
Debtwise, I'm still on the Ramsey plan and would love to have all debt including mortgage paid off in 7 years. As disconcerting my financial situation is for someone my age, I listen to DR's radio shows and it scares the heck out of me that there are people out there much worse off--one guy I listened to yesterday was 65 and was losing his home to foreclosure and had $170k of medical bills. I drove home and delved into my workaholic mindset. Thank God for a job that has enabled me to overcome some of my financial SNAFUs.
I've threatened my son that someday DH and I may be in a little Tumbleweed House in his backyard. I'd be cool with that.
awakenedsoul
6-16-12, 5:05pm
One trend I'm seeing here is that many of the posters are in their 50's and are ALREADY living in sustainable situations that will work for them for a very long time. I hope that this will become more of a mainstream trend---it seems like a smart way to plan a life.
That's true. I'm 47 and didn't expect to be retired so early, but that's how it worked out. Although I don't feel retired at all, since I'm working at growing all of my own food. It's very physically demanding! Many of my neighbors who are my age are dealing with adult children who don't leave. That must be very difficult. It makes me appreciate my privacy. One of my yoga students told me her husband got Alzheimers at 60! She had to put him in a home, and was not prepared, financially. Now she has to rent out a room in her home to a college student to make ends meet. She told me, "I wish I had a little house, like yours." Tiny houses are very practical, and you don't have people moving in with you! (Well, except my dogs, who I picked out.)
T Many of my neighbors who are my age are dealing with adult children who don't leave. That must be very difficult. It makes me appreciate my privacy. ...Tiny houses are very practical, and you don't have people moving in with you! (Well, except my dogs, who I picked out.)
One reason I've never tried for a home with a 2nd bedroom: makes keeping our privacy much, much easier.
Catherine: I hear those DR stories and they make me gulp too. Easy to feel smug for a minute (for me, at any rate), but then I realize that anything can happen to anyone.
Another reason small is beautiful!!
Old age plan:
Stay healthy
Work until I'm 70
Save a lot of money
Hopefully not have boomerang children (another reason to stay in my 2BR, 1 BA, 1100 sf house).
I will be 60 when baby #2 graduates from HS, so 64 when he's out of college. So maybe I'll turn the boys' room into a sewing room at that point, to discourage boomeranging.
I am not really dealing much with aging parents. My hubby's grandparents...his mat grandfather died before I met him. Grandmother was wealthy, lived to be 91 in an assisted living facility in Denmark (her own apartment). His paternal grandparents were not as well off. When his grandfather died, his grandmother (who has severe memory loss), went into a home. Not nearly as nice as the other grandma.
His parents are nearing 70 and are both still healthy, but separated. I don't know how they will fare, really. We'll have to see.
My parents are both gone. My father lived alone and died at almost 82, happy as a clam. My mother drank herself to death and didn't even make it to 68.
DH and I picked our house partly because it's in walking distance to a grocery co-op, Women's Health, the town Plaza and was near a bookstore until it folded. Our house is 600 sf and our yard small. We have four dogs and are near the huge open dog park. Two dogs will likely outlive us, and we've found a good sanctuary that will take them, and have someone who has agreed to drive them there (4 hours away). The couple who did our wills wants our parrot, and their grand-daughter wants her after they die. They'll come from far away to get her.
We have no savings, will live on SSI and live cheap. We are refinancing our house so when one of us dies, the other can handle the mortgage, which will be $900. I turned 70 two days ago, he's 68. I've had serious illnesses and injuries, but eat well and walk dogs about 1 1/2 hours a day. He's had no serious illnesses, eats not very well and gets little exercise. He gardens a lot and is great at it, but that's only good for maybe 8 months of the year max. I like taking care of the dogs and parrot. We watch Netflix and DVDs from the library and read the paper. I have a Prius. He has a truck because we have a cabin in the mountains (240 sf) we can use until he's too old to drive it--winter driving not great, and this is NM where wildfires make summer not great. Only one road out is dangerous. No way we could sell it, I imagine--it's real remote and dry, but maybe.
The refi will take place this week and will be a big load off, though we'll pay mortgage for life. Our big problem is lack of suitable person/people to be our executors. Nobody local, and no family members who'd do a good job. No kids.
One plus is we live really cheap--I eat mung beans and grains and vegetables and fruit, at home. DH works 1/2 time now, since January, and hopefully is easing into finding what he likes to do with his time. We think he'll work a few more years.
I belong to Compassion & Choices and have learned through the years ways to take our own lives should that be our best alternative. Neither wants to live a medically-expensive old age, or to where the other couldn't care for us without trauma to caregiver. This suicide idea isn't conflict-free, but I know others who've done it and it beats wasting away, in my view. If we ever got another dog, it would be a service dog or, if our dogs died and we wanted another one, an old dog.
Haven't planned in detail, but know we won't be in our fairly expensive, large-lot suburban neighborhood.
Probably will move to a smaller town within 3 hours of where we are now, though we will need to stay within a fairly easy trip of a major hospital. Maintaining most of an acre to suburban lot standards has been one of the more pointless endeavors of my life. Will likely stay in a single family house, just with less yard. Stairs are out, and I don't think I could handle a senior-specific community at younger than 75.
I plan to retire from full-time work no later than 63, my wife a few years sooner. Relocating is part of that plan, though we might not go very far.
Maintaining most of an acre to suburban lot standards has been one of the more pointless endeavors of my life.
I completely agree. We are just at the beginning of our planning since except for working too hard, life is comfortable right now. But...the yard, the house, it is all beginning to be too much to keep up with. So our next step will be to find a low maintenance house and yard we can pay cash for and then next step - figure out the retirement part. I tend to get analysis paralysis with these sorts of decisions though because the what-ifs are so varied. Living alone after being married for 37 years though is a great motivator for me right now - in the event that happens (I hope not).
awakenedsoul
6-17-12, 4:43pm
Bronxboy,
Wow, I can't imagine maintaining an acre! I've got 1/3 acre, (I believe,) and that's enough of a challenge. Now that I'm growing my own food on it, it's easier. I use straw as mulch. I don't like mowing a lawn, so I put in a cottage garden in front. It's much easier for me, and I love all the flowers. I live in a strange area. People here either have a beautiful yard, or it's just dirt, rocks, and lots of old cars...I grew up in an area with beautiful front gardens, but now I realize most of those were done by professional gardeners.
Blackdog Lin
6-17-12, 8:29pm
Very interesting thread. We all have such different situations, but a lot of the same questions.
We have no elders to care for anymore, went through that when we were far too young to do a good job of it - I took care of elderly ladies in nursing homes from the age of 26 to the age of 43. (I feel bad now how poor a job I did for my first nursing home Grandma - but I was young and selfish. I did the best I could at the time, but I see now how much better I could have done.....you know.....). And I went through an awful lot of hell with the hassles of disposing of contents of houses, and selling of houses, and deciding proper living arrangements, and medical decisions and physical therapies, and how to pay for these decisions.....I miss our elderly loved ones, but I wouldn't wish the hell I went through for those years on my worst enemy.
Anyway, for our situation - I have long-term-care insurance for both of us (natch!, with what we've been through), the house is paid for, we have no debt (thank you SL Forums!), we have some savings (though nowhere near what "they" say one needs for retirement), and we enjoy living simply. I love our son, but realistically don't plan on him being a help to us in our older age. So we agree that we have at most 10 more years here before we simply can't keep up with the place: 7 acres, of which 2 acres or so are yard (needs to be mowed) and vegetable garden and landscaping areas around the house. With DH disabled, I am already feeling the pressure of taking up the slack on the grounds, and frankly it's kicking my butt this year, with that and still working 3/4-time - I am so sore and so worn out.....
So, the plan is to keep the house "furbished" and repaired enough to sell it for a decent price in 10 years (for our area, we have an excellent situation/location that all young families want: 7 acres w/newer home, barn, pond, 1/2 mile outside our small town, no county zoning) . It will sell later, and we'll use the proceeds to buy a (smaller) house in town, and we'll avail ourselves of the available elderly transportation and medical care and the like. We don't have state of the art medical care in our area, but we make do. It will do.
In the meantime I will keep killing myself in the garden, and it will do me good health-wise, and I will accidently be more healthy and limber.....
awakenedsoul
6-17-12, 9:28pm
That's a good point Blackdog Lin. My parents have SO MUCH STUFF! It's clean and beautiful, but my mother is a compulsive shopper. I wish they would pare down and donate some of it. I think it's unfair to leave all of that for your children. I try to do a lot of decluttering regularly, so if something happens to me, it will be simple and easy to go through my things. You sound very well prepared and very responsible.
I've been thinking maybe a young college student would like to help in the garden when I need it in exchange for free fruits and vegetables. I even have a couple of yoga students who would probably be interested. Seven acres is a huge responsibility. I can't imagine managing that. I have to push it to keep my 1/3 acre in top shape. The straw mulch saves me!
SteveinMN
6-17-12, 10:08pm
That's a good point Blackdog Lin. My parents have SO MUCH STUFF! It's clean and beautiful, but my mother is a compulsive shopper. I wish they would pare down and donate some of it. I think it's unfair to leave all of that for your children.
Have you (and your siblings) mentioned that to mom and dad? It took us quite a while to make it clear to our parents (both sides) that we appreciated their thinking of us, but that we'd rather keep memories than heirlooms. We've identified one item we'd want from each mom (both dads have passed on) and they can sell/give to our siblings/donate whatever else they want. Just easier on everyone rather than parents keeping stuff they think the kids want when the kids would just as soon not deal with it in the first place.
I have to say that I am just wrapping the on-site portion of the national cohousing conference, and cohousing is a fantastic solution to aging in place. I wish I lived in a cohousing community!!
rosarugosa
6-18-12, 5:11am
This is an excellent thread because it's such a difficult but important topic. I'm afraid to say that we don't have much of a game plan. We are in our early fifties, and without the cigarettes, we might possibly make it beyond middle age! We don't have any debt, I contribute to my 401K regularly, and we've started to build a very modest amount of savings. We need to really think about this.
My plan is to remain flexible.
There is no way that I, healthy at the age of 53, can determine what my needs will be when I am 80. Maybe I will be like my mother, living independently in my own home and taking classes at the local University. Maybe, I will need to take a taxi to get my groceries because my vision is too poor to drive and my hip replacement prevents me from walking long distances. Maybe, I will be dead and cremated by then.
As long as I have my wits, I will figure out what the best situation for my physical circumstances is and act accordingly. If I get dementia, I have told my kids to toss me in the nearest nursing home, because being 24/7 caregiver to a person with dementia is an exhausting thing....and I won't know where I am anyway.
I do not worry about it a bit. I am frugal and I have some savings. I could live on SS alone. If that goes belly up, I could live on my retirement accounts alone. If that goes belly up, I could live off my savings.
I will not be moving into an assisted living facility. They are very expensive for what they provide (no nurse on site) and there is not near enough privacy (some of them do not even let you pick who is at your dining table.)
I also will not get long-term care insurance. As others have noted above, the premiums are very high when you move into the age range that you might actually need it and people tend to need nursing homes for either 1) short-term stay to recover from surgery/stroke while getting physical therapy or 2) long-term stay related to dementia. If I need to go to facility because I have dementia, my kids will pay for it out of my money till that's all gone, then the state will pay for it.
iris lily
6-20-12, 10:35am
My personal plan is to die of a stroke or heart attack before my family genes kick in for Alzheimer's.
iris lily
6-20-12, 10:36am
I have to say that I am just wrapping the on-site portion of the national cohousing conference, and cohousing is a fantastic solution to aging in place. I wish I lived in a cohousing community!!
How does a patient with Alzheimer's disease fit in this community?
sweetana3
6-20-12, 11:04am
They dont in advanced stages without the individual's own support system whether their own family or paid caregivers. Even the eldercare communities I have investigated pretty much require some form of independence to participate in the community and take care of their own unit. Most dont buy a home in an expensive community to look forward to caring for one or a group of neighbors to the extent that may be required if they have significant medical issues. Now, if an elder ages in place and the neighbors step up with the normal help needed to keep a person in a home such as some shared meals, some shopping, some in home assistance such as providing company, helping with pets, etc. it is a great thing to have such neighbors. But not all cohousing groups are capable of providing suchthe amount of care that may be needed and it has to be a community with relationships built over time.
It is good to have neighbors to provide those "eyes" for problems but they are still neighbors and need to know who to call when significant needs develop. They are not there to provide 24 hour care or even to be responsible to watch an elder with advanced Alzheimer's disease 24/7 to prevent accidents.
Now one good thing might be there are neighbors with whom the family or individual has hopefully developed some deep relationships with. If they have to move mom or dad in with them to provide some care, they have friends to help support them while they provide such care or maybe help with short bursts of respite care.
What I am trying to say and not doing a good job is that someone who develops Alzheimer's does it over time. In the early stages, a good cohousing community can provide neighborly care to help but in advanced stages of this and many diseases, it takes much more than neighbors can provide. At some point, a decision has to be made to bring in paid caregivers if there is no family or not enough family. If there is no money for paid caregivers, I do not beleive it is responsible to expect a group of neighbors to step up and do the caregiving.
Another thing to keep in mind is that cohousing does not mandate someone being home. So many families are double income families with spouses out of the house and kids, if any, in daycare and the units may be occupied by working singles. There may or may not be any retired individuals in the cohousing units or anyone who stays home during the day. (in our subdivision, there were only two women who did not work or take care of many kids.)
In such situations, who is there to do any caregiving or watching for issues?
Mighty Frugal
6-20-12, 11:31am
My old age goal is to die peacefully in my sleep the way my 89 year old grandpa did. And NOT screaming with fear the way the passengers in his car did.
haha ok, that was a joke:~)
I have an RPP and RSPs and with my CPP (which is fully funded for the next 75 years) I will be fine during my retirement. Currently we are debt free and both dh and I are very frugal when we need to be. I'm not too worried. I more worry about being healthy. Like Fawn, if I get dementia 'toss' me into a home. If I am able, it will be nice to stay at home although some retirement communities seem quite nice!
We don't have to worry about health care and currently I live in the biggest city in Canada so no worries on shortages.
I am from the mind set that I WANT to leave my boys as much of my worldly possessions as possible. So staying home is far cheaper than going to assisted care living. I know many think 'it's my dough and I will spend it' but for me, I will tighten the reins even more to leave it to them. I'm not big on travel or tiaras anyway so it won't be too hard!
My father, who currently lives in an independent living facility, by his choice, could have easily moved to some sort of cohousing situation. After mom died several years ago his 2 biggest concerns were 1) living alone and something going wrong resulting in him lying on the floor unable to ask for/get help and, 2) cooking. Today he's 83 and not suffering at all from dimentia, so he would have been a prime candidate for a cohousing situation, and he'd probably have really liked it. He doesn't hate his current situation, and he likes that he doesn't really have to worry about what would happen if he suffered an injury/illness inside his apartment, but I think he doesn't like that it always feels a bit hospital-like. Even though he's not a spring chicken he has commented more then once that "everyone here seems so old..."
My personal plan is to die of a stroke or heart attack before my family genes kick in for Alzheimer's.
I wish you the very best with this.
If things do not work out exactly as you plan...remember that you can always stop eating. This is my plan...as long as I have my wits about me.
Once the dementia kicks in, all bets are off. Before dementia: eat lots of fats...do not take Lipitor... or aspirin.
Gardenarian
6-21-12, 7:45pm
The bottom floor of our house (the walk-out basement) is all on one level and has a kitchenette. The previous owners rented it out, but my husband uses it as his music studio. We figure that when we are old and can't make it up the stairs we'll rent out the upstairs portion of our house and live on the first floor. I have this sort of fantasy that dd will want to live up there when she has her own family.
We are in good shape financially; I recently bought a cabin that had been foreclosed and have been fixing it up. I got it for a steal. It's in a great little hippie community in the redwoods. I was able to pay cash for it. So another option is that we could sell our "big" house and live in the cabin, or we could also sell the cabin (it is already worth double what I paid for it.)
There is also some nice senior housing in our small town, and I went ahead and put ourselves on the waiting list for that.
If I stay at my job for another 6 years I will have a decent pension. DH has various investments and my wonderful in-laws have a college fund for dd that should cover all costs.
My biggest concern is my health. I'm 53 and feel like I have aged 20 years in the past 6 months. I'm quite fit and take care of myself; it's just been plain bad luck and some lousy genes. There is no plan for bad luck.
I'm sorry about your bad luck, Gardenian. It sounds like you do have some good things in place for now and for the future. I encourage you not to be too discouraged about your looks--at age 53 stress-induced appearance issues can improve dramatically with time and resolution of the stressors.
My plan is to remain flexible.
There is no way that I, healthy at the age of 53, can determine what my needs will be when I am 80. Maybe I will be like my mother, living independently in my own home and taking classes at the local University. Maybe, I will need to take a taxi to get my groceries because my vision is too poor to drive and my hip replacement prevents me from walking long distances. Maybe, I will be dead and cremated by then.
As long as I have my wits, I will figure out what the best situation for my physical circumstances is and act accordingly. If I get dementia, I have told my kids to toss me in the nearest nursing home, because being 24/7 caregiver to a person with dementia is an exhausting thing....and I won't know where I am anyway.
I do not worry about it a bit. I am frugal and I have some savings. I could live on SS alone. If that goes belly up, I could live on my retirement accounts alone. If that goes belly up, I could live off my savings.
I will not be moving into an assisted living facility. They are very expensive for what they provide (no nurse on site) and there is not near enough privacy (some of them do not even let you pick who is at your dining table.)
I also will not get long-term care insurance. As others have noted above, the premiums are very high when you move into the age range that you might actually need it and people tend to need nursing homes for either 1) short-term stay to recover from surgery/stroke while getting physical therapy or 2) long-term stay related to dementia. If I need to go to facility because I have dementia, my kids will pay for it out of my money till that's all gone, then the state will pay for it.
Most of what you're saying is exactly what I think too---except for the worry part! (I do worry!) I think you're absolutely right about Long Term Care Insurance.
I think what can be hard to navigate is when your situation isn't so cut-and-dried. Many people have needs for care that quickly outstrip their financial resources, yet they are still alert and aware--and for these people a nursing home can be a terrible place to be.
I think you're right--no one can predict exactly what will happen. I try to take good care of my health and save my money, but I still wake up at night terrified. NOT the best use of my life energy!!
awakenedsoul
6-22-12, 12:05am
Have you (and your siblings) mentioned that to mom and dad? It took us quite a while to make it clear to our parents (both sides) that we appreciated their thinking of us, but that we'd rather keep memories than heirlooms. We've identified one item we'd want from each mom (both dads have passed on) and they can sell/give to our siblings/donate whatever else they want. Just easier on everyone rather than parents keeping stuff they think the kids want when the kids would just as soon not deal with it in the first place.
I've asked my mom to go through her stuff and donate what she doesn't use. I've told her that it's unfair to leave all of this for her kids to sort through...she keeps shopping. She has many compulsive behaviors and is used to having other people, (husband, housekeeper, massage therapist,) do things for her. She is an alcoholic and on 23 prescription drugs, so it is unlikely she'll change...
Gardenarian, I felt invincible until I had my first arthritis flareup in a knee when 58. Hurt so bad I told the doctor he could cut it off. We fixed that but it was a wake up call. Strong bones but weak joints.
We figure another 10 years and stairs will be out. I would rather get a one level home than have knee replacement surgery. If there is an alternative.
...she keeps shopping. She has many compulsive behaviors and is used to having other people, (husband, housekeeper, massage therapist,) do things for her. She is an alcoholic and on 23 prescription drugs, so it is unlikely she'll change...
My sympathies. I figured you had asked at least once; I know it took many mentions for our parents to believe it, but the only drivers for them were being "Depression babies" and social custom. I guess, come the time, you can have someone come in and run an estate sale for you.... (sorry, I'm a guy; I always try to "fix" things)
I've asked my mom to go through her stuff and donate what she doesn't use. I've told her that it's unfair to leave all of this for her kids to sort through...she keeps shopping. She has many compulsive behaviors and is used to having other people, (husband, housekeeper, massage therapist,) do things for her. She is an alcoholic and on 23 prescription drugs, so it is unlikely she'll change...
When my mother died I was in poor health and couldn't cope, even with her perfectly normal complement of household stuff. I took out the obvious heirlooms and a couple of useful things, hired an auction house which came in and took everything out, left the house broom clean and sent me a check for the proceeds minus their fee. They dropped off things like Kleenex at a women's shelter and sold all the furniture and furnishings. For me that was a very simple and easy solution.
When my mother died I was in poor health and couldn't cope, even with her perfectly normal complement of household stuff. I took out the obvious heirlooms and a couple of useful things, hired an auction house which came in and took everything out, left the house broom clean and sent me a check for the proceeds minus their fee. They dropped off things like Kleenex at a women's shelter and sold all the furniture and furnishings. For me that was a very simple and easy solution.
reader, I think that's a slick solution when it works. I think that it may not work for many many people because
1) They expect to get every last bleeding dime they can get for the stuff which pretty much means they have to hawk it themselves for "retail" price
2) Many seniors die with stuff that is not worth the auction house even taking any of it, let alone cleaning up the place to end with a profit for survivors.
When my friend and neighbor was killed by her husband and the husband hauled off to jail, her relatives called in more than one Estate Sale company but none of them wanted the sale, there just wasn't enough stuff for them to make a profit.
But I think that you are smart to have done that and to view it as a good thing. That's what I would have done, too, had we not been able to clean out my mother's place gradually over many years.
awakenedsoul
6-22-12, 3:43pm
My sympathies. I figured you had asked at least once; I know it took many mentions for our parents to believe it, but the only drivers for them were being "Depression babies" and social custom. I guess, come the time, you can have someone come in and run an estate sale for you.... (sorry, I'm a guy; I always try to "fix" things)
Yes, it's too bad. But, my brother is in charge of all that, so I don't know what he will do when the time comes. Maybe an estate sale, like you said. The thing is, they have inherited some very valuable antiques, silver, and jewelry. Hopefully it won't all go to waste. I just shop at thrift shops and don't worry about it. I did talk with my mom today, though. I told her that I had made arrangements to donate my body to science when I die. They pay for the funeral expenses and cremation. I also told her that I was decluttering everything so that when the time comes, whoever has to go through my things can have it all done easily in one day. I'm trying to have things half full, instead of bursting at the seams! I pointed out that I get so many useful things at the Salvation Army, and it makes me feel good to donate to them so I know it goes to someone who really needs it.
She is an alcoholic and on 23 prescription drugs, so it is unlikely she'll change...
Awakened, I'm very sorry to hear about your mom's situation. I have become so skeptical about multiple prescription drugs in recent years. Every doctor piles on a couple of more, and nobody looks at the big picture. Insurance companies could actually do some good if they required the involvement of a consulting pharmacist at 8 or 10.
Is one of those drugs called Mirapex? It has compulsive behavior as a side effect.
http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2010/02/03/suffering-side-effects-from-mirapex-for-restless-legs/
awakenedsoul
6-25-12, 5:40pm
Awakened, I'm very sorry to hear about your mom's situation. I have become so skeptical about multiple prescription drugs in recent years. Every doctor piles on a couple of more, and nobody looks at the big picture. Insurance companies could actually do some good if they required the involvement of a consulting pharmacist at 8 or 10.
Is one of those drugs called Mirapex? It has compulsive behavior as a side effect.
http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2010/02/03/suffering-side-effects-from-mirapex-for-restless-legs/
Thanks Bronxboy. I don't know. She was on several prescription drugs when she was pregnant with me. She was seeing three different doctors and taking all the medication. (unbeknownst to them.) She was also anorexic while pregnant with me. She's always been compulsive. She cleaned the entire house every single day. (with four kids!) She would tan for hours at a time....it was really bizarre. (Even if it was cold outside.)
It's funny though, because of it, I never got into drugs or drinking. There was no mystery for me. I was very turned off of all that from birth. I was lucky to have an excellent dance school nearby. I poured myself into that and had a fabulous career because of it. I also studied yoga and healing and have helped a lot of people heal their injuries and problems through alternative methods. (30 years of teaching.)
I agree with you about all the prescribing of medication. Look at Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson. Highly talented, artistic, sensitive people seem to be more prone to abusing these substances. It's strange that the doctors aren't more responsible. I think they are highly addictive and that the patients are not in their right mind. They become totally reliant on the doctor. It's also big business. Huge profits...She's also had numerous surgeries.
I've asked my mom to go through her stuff and donate what she doesn't use. I've told her that it's unfair to leave all of this for her kids to sort through...she keeps shopping. She has many compulsive behaviors and is used to having other people, (husband, housekeeper, massage therapist,) do things for her. She is an alcoholic and on 23 prescription drugs, so it is unlikely she'll change...
I'm so sorry to hear that. My mother was the same way, except maybe only 15-20 pills. She died in December, basically gave up and with all the drugs and alcohol, her organs all started failing.
There's no stuff to sort through, because my stepdad is still living.
When my father died, my sister (the executor) told us at his "wake" (the siblings basically went to his house and drank beer and ate) that we could take what we wanted but everything else was going to be donated or thrown out by a service. That worked for us. Of course, he was the opposite of your mom, never shopped. That means most of his stuff wasn't worth saving at all.
awakenedsoul
6-25-12, 8:28pm
I'm so sorry to hear that. My mother was the same way, except maybe only 15-20 pills. She died in December, basically gave up and with all the drugs and alcohol, her organs all started failing.
There's no stuff to sort through, because my stepdad is still living.
When my father died, my sister (the executor) told us at his "wake" (the siblings basically went to his house and drank beer and ate) that we could take what we wanted but everything else was going to be donated or thrown out by a service. That worked for us. Of course, he was the opposite of your mom, never shopped. That means most of his stuff wasn't worth saving at all.
mm1970,
That's too bad. I think it's pretty common, especially in CA. I wonder if the same thing will happen to my mom. I don't know how their bodies can handle all of those drugs for so many years!
Her stuff is very valuable. She has very expensive taste, and their house is immaculate. It will all work out somehow.
I've asked my mom to go through her stuff and donate what she doesn't use. I've told her that it's unfair to leave all of this for her kids to sort through...she keeps shopping. She has many compulsive behaviors and is used to having other people, (husband, housekeeper, massage therapist,) do things for her. She is an alcoholic and on 23 prescription drugs, so it is unlikely she'll change...
My mom, thankfully, was the opposite as far as stuff goes. She was never a fan of shopping (is this hereditary? I hate shopping too.) and as she aged she was ruthless about getting rid of stuff. (she was also not even remotely sentimental and had no problem throwing away a box of art projects my sister and I had done during elementary school, etc) It wasn't until she was dying of cancer that she finally said "eff this. someone else can deal with the rest of it after I'm gone. But there wasn't much left by that point. And now dad has moved himself to an assisted living facility where he has a tiny apartment, so when his time comes we'll be able to clear it out in an afternoon. Before he moved into the facility my sister and I took what we wanted, so at this point there's just a cedar trunk and one other steamer trunk of stuff that we'd maybe want. The rest we'll just donate to salvation army or something.
SO's parents are a completely different story, but thankfully we live 2000 miles away and he's got 4 siblings that live close by so they'll be the ones who get to deal with all their crap.
I've started gathering things I no longer need or use room by room to bag them up so my son and his two older sons can take them to a charity to donate to the local SPCA store or Salvation Army shops. I no longer have a car to take them myself, so it's very satisfying to do what I can to make it easy for my family to clear up my closets full of clothing to donate to people who can use them.
Being easy on my clothes, I have many good, usable things that others can use for themselves, plus making it much easier to clean my apartment up when I leave.
It's strange that the doctors aren't more responsible. I think they are highly addictive and that the patients are not in their right mind. They become totally reliant on the doctor. It's also big business. Huge profits...She's also had numerous surgeries.
It is sad, surgery is recommended with remarkable casualness.
Sounds like your mothers temperament is nothing new, so there is not much reason to think it's a new drug.
I've recently finished making adjustments to my Will to specifically state exactly who gets what. My oldest son, who is the administrator, was concerned that I hadn't clearly stated what each person was getting of my possessions, particularly of the antique furniture I had inherited from my grandmother, so I got it organized and initialled every change I had made.
I will give it to him this week to keep in his home to show his brothers what I want to give each of them and save him from any arguments.
try2bfrugal
6-27-12, 3:56am
I have money set aside in our retirement planning for assisted living and long term care. If my husband and I both end up in long term care then we won't need the house any more and that can be sold to buy an annuity to help cover nursing home expenses. Between the annuity, pensions and Social Security benefits and savings that should be enough. If that doesn't work there is living in an assisted living or nursing home in a low cost of living state or even a low cost of living country in Central America. Then of course there is always the spend down to Medicaid as the plan of last resort.
We are both into holistic health and I am particularly interested in Eastern medicine. I can't see us ending up on 20 pills and having surgery every few months for this or that like some of our older relatives and spending our last months or years in and out of hospitals. Maybe I will feel differently when the time comes.
awakenedsoul
6-28-12, 4:35pm
It is sad, surgery is recommended with remarkable casualness.
Sounds like your mothers temperament is nothing new, so there is not much reason to think it's a new drug.
Oh no! She is WAY NICER on all these drugs. They seem to temper her rage. Or, maybe it's not having four kids around. I've learned she can control her temper, and now that she's older, she's much more careful. My brother threatened to put her in a home, and I think that scared her.
I find if I just eat every two hours, my mood is pretty good and consistent. I've also learned to stay away from stressful people and situatons.
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