Resource Recommendations?

[Zoebird]

This past weekend, had an ultimately positive experience with my ILs. Well, positive for me in the long term anyway. Or, I hope. But I could use some resources if you know of any.

First, the situation that occurred. Some days ago (last week), I posted something that I found funny on FB: that my MIL had put into the box for DH's birthday, an article about NZ -- which had been our headline news for months several months ago. I found this really hilarious. It was no slight on MIL -- i know she clips these articles and sends them because she's thinking about us and it's thoughtful and sweet. No bigs.

I knew that my SIL (but not my F/MIL) was on my FB, and since she also gets articles -- as do most of my ex-pat friends -- I thought it would be one of those funny little/endearing things. My friend posted how her grandmother has started to send her the most random articles since her dementia set in, for example, and anther how her mother always sends her articles about what my friend does for a living, and so of course my friend is way, way ahead of that article. But, it was not a negative conversation in any way.

My SIL, apparently, was "really hurt" by it, and then told my ILs, who were also "really hurt by it." Then FIL was more or less elected (usually self elected as per his behavior patterns/personality type) to "bring things to rights." His expectation, I'm sure, is that he would play the heavy and "shame" me for "what I did" and then from there, I would apologize and he could go back feeling good that things were properly resolved and that I was "in my place."

Of course, I refused to accept this situation. Foremost, I refused to accept FIL's shaming, and told him so. SEcondarily, I told him that if MIL and SIL have an issue, then they should bring it up with me, and we can discuss it. At that point, my parents happened to call (on the cell phone), so I answered that, and DH talked to FIL about the underlying behavior pattern at play that he thinks was not appropriate.

I then felt that it was important to write an email to my ILs about the situation, because honestly, I felt like it was time for some boundaries.

First, I wrote to my SIL. I know that what she did -- based on what she's done in the past -- is that she took the statement out of context in order to deflect attention away from herself and begin a relationship triangle (see? i've read a few articles) between her parents, her brother and I, and herself. She being on their team, but knowing that shey will stew about that all weekend, rather than stewing about her ("see? we are on the same team!").

I told her that I was removing her from FB because instead of just asking me about what I meant or simply telling me that the statement upset her so that we could clarify, she went to her parents with her interpretation.

This likely expanded MIL's interpreation. On her own, she may have been hurt by the statement -- I cannot say. But, with SIL asserting that she was hurt, MIL would not only take on that hurt, but feel that she's justified in feeling hurt, making the hurt far greater even still.

And of course, I feel that if MIL had a problem with the statements, she could have told me so and asked me about it.

Instead, FIL approached me with a shaming tone (asserting an authority that he didn't have) and accused me of malicious intent, "thinking that I'd gotten away with it" and "not being classy." OH, and to "never do it again. it's just not classy."

Not once did they simply state "I was hurt by this, did you really mean that?" Like a grown up human being.

So, the three main issues were that 1. they never asked me about the statement so that we could dialogue about it openly; 2. shaming me is inappropriate because we are emotional equals and they have no authority over me (and never have) nor does if their feelings are right/justified create that authority; and 3. the fact that everyone is going-between rather than allowing people to have their own feelings/boundaries/conflicts are a real problem. I don't want to talk to FIL about SIL's/MIL's "issues" with me. It's abstracted and inappropriate anyway. It's "talking behind someone's back" and I'm not interested.

I wrote that to them.

This week, DH and I are working on the other areas that we want to discuss -- because the shaming continues even on skype, which is one hour a week (or less). Then, there are other aspects -- all of these various dynamics -- and DH wants to talk to his parents about them. He wants to create boundaries with them.

And this is for good reason. And not just normal, everyday life and good relationship reasons, but because they are coming here on holiday at christmas for 3 weeks, and we need to know how to create and maintain boundaries and make sure that we are ok, that our DS is ok.

Do you have any resources that can help us with these boundaries?

Or creative ideas to create actual, physical boundaries while they are here on holiday (one idea i have is housing them in town at a nice hostel, rather than in our neighborhood in a granny flat).

Thanks for reading and thanks for your input!

[Zoebird]

While not immedate, I found this web site about improving communication, so maybe while my ILs are here, I'll use this list of questions to just start relating to them in a way tha tmight be fun and interesting (unless they shut it down. but I'm always hopeful). Linky-link (http://www.therapyideas.net/resentment.htm).

[Miss Cellane]

One thing I've learned is that you cannot expect to change other people's behavior. You can only change how you react to their behavior.

So your plan of setting boundaries is a good one. You don't have to have their input to set boundaries or discuss anything with them. You and your DH decide what your boundaries are. Then communicate that to the in-laws.

Your in-laws may never open the dialogue that you want. You may never be able to discuss matters like this with them. They have the right to own their behavior. You have the right not to expose your family to such behavior. Exercises in improving communication only work if both sides want to improve.

So when the "shaming" starts, simply don't engage. "FIL, we've discussed this. There is nothing further to say. If you continue to talk about this, we're going to hang up/leave." And then when FIL continues to "shame" you, gently interrupt and say, "FIL, we told you we weren't going to discuss this further. Good-bye." And hang up or remove yourself from the situation.

It's a lot like teaching a child. You set the boundary. You state the consequence for breaking the boundary. And then you have to follow through with the consequence.

Honestly, I wouldn't try to explain your point of view or feelings or appropriate boundaries. Your letter about these things was probably either ignored or made into further fuel for their wrath. You don't have to explain things to these people. Explaining can make things worse, in some ways, because it gives them more things to argue about. Doing this may be hard for you, because clearly you and your DH gain a lot of benefit from thinking things through and discussing them. But that doesn't appear to be how the rest of his family works. This may also be difficult for your DH, because doing things like hanging up on your parents is *hard*. He grew up in that family; he's accustomed to this behavior.

State your position. State the consequence. Follow through with the consequence.

[catherine]

I agree that you cannot change anyone. If they are not communicating effectively with you, detach from it.

HOWEVER, that being said, I have to admit that no matter how benign the FB post might have seemed, I personally do not like the idea of referencing family/friends in FB with its wide audience. I mentioned in another thread how my brother went on and on in a FB post about his first wife's 10th anniversary of her death, while his second wife of course was privy to it as well as everyone else.

With any electronic communication there is ALWAYS the risk that someone will misinterpret something so I take a very conservative position when it comes to broadcasting stuff that includes other people.

Your SIL and FIL may have overreacted, but if they weren't reading it, they couldn't react to it. JMHO.

[iris lily]

Minimal contact with the inlaws, and ALWAYS writing that is upbeat and superficial, is what's called for here. Agree that your shouldn't bother to explain your feelings or your position. By doing that you are engaging with them in their behavior that you find unacceptable. Detach.

And what Catherine said about Facebook communications. What I discovered in middle age (well before Facebook) is that the written word has tremendous power to hurt, I think because it lingers on and on. The "victim" can continually go back to that written missive and read it again, injuring themselves one more time, rinse and repeat.

At least words issued in face to face conversation dissipate into the air after a time.

[razz]

Never, never state anything in writing anywhere that cannot be posted on a very large billboard in a prominent place for the whole world to see and interpret in many ways is a boundary that I have tried to set for myself to prevent just the situation that you have described.

FWIW, giving a contrary view, frankly, I would be disappointed to see that a special kindness or effort that I had given to someone would be discussed at all especially if it could be lumped in with other more derisive comments. The gift was to you and to you alone, between just two parties, respect that boundary or have the courtesy to let the gifter know to no longer give you that gift of thoughtfulness.

[sweetana3]

Zoebird, I reread your message above. It would be very easy for someone to take such comments in a way not intended since you are not "there" with a smile or an explanation. You may feel your comments "were not negative" but being compared even slightly to someone with dementia or another relative who sends old and useless articles would really hurt, especially to someone who has even the slightest preexisting lack of self confidence in the relationship with her daughter in law.

If you want to calm the waters, apologize profusely and only apologize. Do not comment on your inlaws (or other family members) in any way on Facebook. I agree with the poster that anything in writing will come back and bite you one way or the other. It has a way of living a very long life.

If you want to be right regardless of the consequences, go right ahead and attempt to change their minds.

[Alan]

If you want to be right regardless of the consequences, go right ahead and attempt to change their minds.
Then wonder why relations become strained.

The problem is someones feelings were hurt by the facebook posting. The right thing to do is to apologize, sincerely apologize and hope for forgiveness. Anything less is just trying to be right.

[catherine]

Then wonder why relations become strained.

The problem is someones feelings were hurt by the facebook posting. The right thing to do is to apologize, sincerely apologize and hope for forgiveness. Anything less is just trying to be right.

+1

[herbgeek]

+1


FWIW, giving a contrary view, frankly, I would be disappointed to see that a special kindness or effort that I had given to someone would be discussed at all especially if it could be lumped in with other more derisive comments. The gift was to you and to you alone, between just two parties, respect that boundary or have the courtesy to let the gifter know to no longer give you that gift of thoughtfulness.

Also +1

Its wrong IMO to be talking about a third party without their knowledge in such a public forum where people can read all sorts of things into it, no matter how benign YOU think it is.

You may have boundary issues with your ILs that need to be addressed, but this isn't one of them. I think you were wrong to do so, and an apology is in order.

PS do you not see the irony between this: His expectation, I'm sure, is that he would play the heavy and "shame" me for "what I did" and then from there, I would apologize and he could go back feeling good that things were properly resolved and that I was "in my place."

and ...<FIL> accused me of malicious intent" Isn't this what you were doing in the above sentence?

[Wildflower]

After reading your post above and others you have written in the past about both sides of your family - a pattern is starting to emerge. I'm sorry to say I think you're passive aggressive and thriving on the discord you cause, because you then get to play the victim. It really comes through loud and clear in this thread. Sorry to be so blunt. You DO owe your MIL an apology. That is just sad that you did what you did. Really sad.....because you knew exactly what you were doing, the pain it would cause someone else, and yet, you still said it in a totally public forum. Not good.

[Zoebird]

Thanks for your insights.

Foremost, for what it's worth, I did apologize that their feelings got hurt. I did not apologize for making the statement because that is allowing them authority over what I say/do/think/etc -- and that would be inappropriate considering the boundary issues that they have with us (this is a boundary that a counselor helped me set over 10 years ago -- I can apologize for their feelings being hurt, but not for a malicious intent that doesn't exist).

I have never claimed to be perfect in this relationship. It started when I was 20 (and they were mid-50s), and I admit that I did not have a lot of life experience then, and certainly no tools to deal with the sort of dynamics that they have in their family. I'm not sure any girl/guy is in any family situation at that age does. I was still just barely parsing out my own family's dynamics, let alone a whole new family when I don't really know them *and* I don't know what to look for. I'm sure that I have done many things -- inadvertently in particular -- that have upset them.

What largely creates the upset is a difference in world-view, and part of that is the world-view that they hold: black/white thinking, and they are always right in their thinking. Therefore, anything that DH and I do that is outside of their perspective of what the "right" thing is, is wrong and therefore also bad. They always "expected more from you" in any situation.

To give the example most important to them right now -- we moved to NZ. This is the common description from them, every skype call: Why do you hate us so much? I don't see why you can't live near us and do what you are doing. Why do you have to live in NZ? All of our friend's children live near them, and they see their grandchildren all the time? WHy are you so mean to us? Why aren't you considering our feelings when moving to NZ? Why didn't you consider our feelings when choosing your career, when you knew that your career choice might take you far away from us? It's unfair that we don't get to be with our grandchild as much as our friends get to be with their grandchild. It's unfair that you stole him from us! We expected more of you. We didn't raise you to be so selfish as to completely forget about us. You need to honor and obey your parents, look to us for counsel, because we are older and wiser and know what is best for all of us. It's not good for you to live so far away, and we don't understand why you would even think that it possibly could be!

Do you see?

Early on (years 20-23), we desperately tried to change things -- in a way to change them. We went into family therapy and invited them to join us so that we could create a healthy relationship. They came once, but then finished by asserting that "they are fine, this is our fault, and all we needed to do was think about what the right thing to do is" -- and so that aspect ended. DH and I continued with the therapist, who taught us how to lay some boundaries, but actually ultimately suggested that we not have contact with them at all, due to the fact that we would "never be right" for them.

We have been in couple's/family therapy over how to create healthy boundaries with them three different times, with three different counselors -- each providing us with great tools, but each also suggesting that we simply cut off contact altogether.

We have opted not to cut them out because we value family. It is incredibly important to me that DH and DS have a positive relationship with my ILs. I'm happy to have a neutral relationship, and a positive one if that is possible. And as you all have said, I can really only change myself, and over the years, I have really become more accepting of them overall. Underneath their negative behavioral patterns, they really are nice people and they do try really hard -- and I value that.

So, in the past, we had several strategies that worked ok. Our relationship still wasn't great, but it was neutral-positive most of the time with these boundaries. First, we contained how frequently we saw them, and contained the duration of the visit. DH determined the amount of time and how frequently we would see them.

Second, we would create out-ward focused activities -- cautiously based on what they like to do, but if we did something "on the nose" (Ie, going to play golf, FIL's newest hobby) then they would get really upset with us during the activity, so we would be able to do something like. . . watch a kid's golf tournament at the local course. So, this helped keep everyone's mind's engaged in a singular direction. I also tried to pick activities that would be "team building and trust building" but not going over the top like "ropes courses." Instead, we would create "shifting teams" for minigolf, for example, and DH and I made sure that MIL/FIL always "won" no matter what in some way.

Third, we would try to always stay to safe topics of conversation, usually having MIL/FIL talk about themselves. MIL is into her herb club, for example, so I'd ask how that was going, what she was growing, what they were studying/working on/etc. But, I had to be careful because if I asked too many questions about it (such as "You mentioned MIllie was growing three kinds of mint, did she notice if they grew differently in different containers?") then I was actually being "nosy and rude" and trying to "show up" to MIL how much I knew about herbs (i don't know anything about herbs) and how I thought I was smarter/better than her.

When we moved to NZ, skype calls got much worse -- simply because they don't like the fact that we are here. We tend to skype 1x per week for an hour, unless they have an activity with their friends to go to. About once a month, they cancel the call on Friday because something comes up, too. So, it's usually bout 3x a month that we have calls. They are usually quite irritated during these calls, and typically end up shaming someone at least once (including DS). This is, of course, inappropriate, but we have -- as yet -- been unable to figure out boundaries on skype.

The concept of simply saying "that's nto appropriate, we told you about this, we're going to hang up now" has not been a comfortable fit for DH -- as when we have done tht, he gets reems of nasty emails about how we hurt MILs feelings (usually written by FIL)< and on several occasions, FIL will call DH on the phone to do so as well.

But where we really are feeling trepidation is on their up-coming holiday. They will be here for 3 weeks.

We are looking at creating some physical distance by putting them up in the hostel in town -- which gives them access to the city when we are at home with DS (for his bed time routines, etc). We'll also have our own rooms in the hostel, and we'll make sure that our room is "our room" and not a space where ILs are allowed in just because they want to be with us. We'll use common areas or "their room" for that -- which gives us an "escape hatch."

We want to discuss with them -- over skype this weekend -- these different boundaries for the sake of clarity. We also want them to be able to express their anger/frustration about our being here openly. They do it anyway, but we feel like they want to be "heard."

The warnings in the past around this is that for them "heard = you will do what i want" and "doing what we feel is right = not hearing/listening." So, we will be clear that we cannot own their feelings or "make them happy" with our decision, nor can we get them to "understand" -- but rather we want them to know that we understand their disappointment, but it doesn't change the fact that this is the decision that we have made which is best for ourselves.

I'm really just looking for more strategies -- if anyone has any resources -- about how to possibly handle this on a holiday?

I'm sure I"ll just figure it out, but your insights are helpful.

And trust me, I do not think they are monsters or malicious. They are acting out dynamics that they are wholly unconscious of -- truly. I do understand that, and so I do not think they do anything to be mean. It doesn't mean that the outcome isn't unhealthy.

[iris lily]

To further beat up on zoebird :D: I have to say, good god, talking to someone 1X weekly with whom one has a somewhat strained relationship is too often. I would also suggest that you yourself be involved in the conversation only 1X monthly, and let the boys do it weekly. If your DH isn't interested in a weekly call, then let your DS do it. A four year old may not stay on the line long, and hey, that's ok.

By virtue of you moving to another continent you DID affect the relationship of your DS and his grandparents, like it or not, and any number of Skype calls can't change that.

Them visiting for 3 solid weeks sounds like a nightmare to me. But again--because you live so far away, that's pretty much what people from the States have to do to make the airfare worth it. Give them lots of time with just your husband, just your son, and with your husband and son. You don't need to be with the group all of the time, although I'm sure that you've figured this out, and besides, you are working a lot so that removes you from the family outings.

p.s. my inlaws are nice people but they are not my family of origin, and they will never be like my parents. I thought it was brilliant that when they DID come to visit us they stayed, I kid you not--no more than one night. That's because they usually came in town on their way to visit their daughter down in Florida.

[redfox]

My suggestions... Al-Anon, as a great, free way to be mentored in unlearning any kind of co-dependency, & learn better, kinder boundary setting. Also, Byron Katie's work, especially her "Your business, my business, god's business" statement.

[Zoebird]

I suppose more context may be important here. From our various years of work on this topic, it was the work by Peck -- People of the Lie -- that seemed to really clarify what was unconsciously happening on the part of my ILs. This is not to say that they are malicious. It is simply to describe how they behave, based on their own internal conflicts. From the wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck) on the book:


Peck characterizes evil as a malignant type of self-righteousness in which there is an active rather than passive refusal to tolerate imperfection (sin) and its consequent guilt.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#cite_note-Roadmult-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#cite_note-Liemult-6) This syndrome results in a projection of evil onto selected specific innocent victims (often children), which is the paradoxical mechanism by which the People of the Lie commit their evil.

I do not think that they are "evil" people. I believe that they are suffering people unable to come to grips with their own humanity, and therefore they behave in ways described in the quote. The rest of the article describes other patterns, and as an aspect of this, both of my ILs are pretty good manipulators (http://therapyideas.net/triangles.htm). My MIL is a master at floating into victim-mode, as soon as she is called out on her manipulating behaviors.

But because of this, DH and I consider them 'unsafe' for us emotionally. This is why it has been suggested that we cut off contact -- nearly every encounter with them includes at least one drama triangle during the meeting, and then at least one afterwards. In addition, there is at least one aspect of splintering -- this concept described by Peck -- either onto DH, DS, or myself (that's what the shaming usually is).

This is why we have restricted contact as much as we can. We also made the decision many years before DS was born that he would never be left alone with my ILs. Either DH or myself must be there at all times. this is not because they will physically harm him, but because they will splinter onto him, actively shame him, and -- in particular -- likely shame him about his body/sex/"sexuality" for what it is right now (infantile, exploratory masturbation). MIL has already told him that his penis is disgusting because it's not circumcised, and that took three weeks to explain that MIL was ignorant of what a healthy penis is, and that she was wrong to say that to him, and that his penis is lovely, perfect, and whole, and wholly his.

So you can imagine that if she does this sort of shocking stuff *in front of us*, she's sure as hell going to do that or WORSE if he is with them alone. So that is *not happening* and you don't want to hear what DH endured as a child, teen, and young adult male from them in regards to sex/sexuality, and in particular once I came into the picture (and how I was treated). It is horrid.

But, it comes out of their "militant ignorance" -- really, their lack of desire to embrace and work with and make peace with their own shadow sides.

Certainly it makes sense to come for many weeks on their visits.

Likewise, I also had no false notions that moving here wouldn't change DS's relationships with his grandparents, nor am I trying to make up for that via Skype. It is simply that i'm trying to find ways to manage my own anxiety around their coming, and how unsafe I feel about it.

DH has asked me to be with him as much as I can, because he doesn't feel sure that his own passivity won't come into play (remember, these are the dynamics with which he was raised), and as such, he fears that he will not adequately protect DS. He knows that he won't adequately protect himself -- as he has always struggled with that even with therapy, boundary setting, etc -- he finds it all very difficult -- but he's really concerned about DS.

I have no problems doing what my DH wishes in this regard, as I want both of them to feel safe, and being the strongest willed PITA on the planet, I'm pretty sure that I can handle it.

Right now, the plan is to contain as much as possible: 1. make sure that they are staying in their own digs while we're in wellington; making sure that we have our own room in hostels when we travel. 2. when we are together, having activities that are outward-facing so that they are distracted from their discomforts and therefore less likely to go into splintering and manipulative behaviors. 3. making sure that we contain times -- getting DS into bed at 7 for stories, for example, whether we are in hostel or at home -- which means leaving the grandparents around 6 pm every evening. DH is welcome to stay with them and hang out or whatever, but DS has to leave by a certain time because this is what is best for HIM (which we have learned on previous trips).

I think from there, it's mostly about what "escape hatches" I can create -- if they are getting into some really negative behaviors, how do I or DH most effectively assert that this is not creating a positive experience and therefore walk away?

I think that I'm partly torn because they *are* coming from far away. I don't want them to be triple upset that their time with DS will be limited between 10 am and 6 pm (two meals, two activities per day) except when traveling when we'll also do breakfast together as well. If I have to walk away from them with DS because I feel they are being to aggressive, how do I most effectively do that without causing too big of a flap because there is no place for any of us to go?

[Miss Cellane]

Why are you so invested in having DH and DS have a relationship with these people? It's clear you don't like them and consider them a threat to you and your family and your values. Why not let DH take the lead on this and allow him to have the level of contact that he feels comfortable with? If you consider them so "unsafe," why not just take the advice of the multiple counselors and stop initiating contact?

And I have to be honest--if an in-law wanted me to go into therapy, basically telling me that the only way they could have a relationship with me was through therapy, I'd probably be the one to cut off the relationship entirely. Some of your feelings towards them have to be leaking through--it's no wonder the relationship is strained.

I think you and DH have a choice. Cut off contact and remove the drama from your lives. Or continue the contact and accept all that means--that they are unsafe, can't be trusted with your child alone, needing escape hatches.

You keep wanting them to accept your boundaries, which might be hard for them to do when you can't accept them or their boundaries.

[razz]

Honey, not to beat up on you, set boundaries for yourself alone and distance from the challenges. That is all that you can do as you cannot change others no matter what resources you find.

Absolutely do not leave DS with those who are negative about his immediate family.

It seems that you want a sense of loving family and the biological is not providing this. Detach and find a family to adopt that loves and appreciates who you all are.

Many times, many of us adopt friends as our family to fill roles of father, mother, sibling.

Why are you allowing yourselves to be set up for three weeks of stress? For a sense of a loving family that doesn't exist with biological? Why?

[herbgeek]

Three intense weeks with my family would be way too much for me, and I LIKE my family. Can you suggest some tours/day trips for them to do to explore the area so that they aren't dependent on your for every minute. That's setting up an even unhealthier dynamic. Make sure they have transportation, get them lots of resources (guide books and the like). Do you have any older friends who might be willing to host them for an afternoon site seeing? Or an organized group of some sort?

While I agree with your need for an escape hatch, I think communicating this plan to the ILs is just asking for drama. Telling them they aren't welcome in your room is just asking for a bad scene. Why are you staying there in the first place? You are setting up the expectation if you are there with them, that you will accompany them at all times. If you were home, and they were at a nearby motel, you could make plans to be together at points in the day, but you wouldn't be setting the expectation with them to be around 24/7. Much easier to retreat also, and say that DS needs his own things, and his own routine. Whereas if you are somewhere neutral, there will likely be begging/pleading to get DS to stay because he's "on vacation". If you are in the next room with them, but limit their access to DS to specific hours, you know they will be disappointed, and likely vocally so. Why not try to avoid the drama in the first place rather than asking for strategies to deal with it when it inevitably happens?

[Zoebird]

Foremost, I know that it can be complex for people to understand, but acknowledging bad behaviors that are a detriment to your relationship is not asserting that you dislike someone. As people, I actually like my ILs, but I do not like these specific behaviors and the long-term effects of them (as evidenced in my SIL and DH) and I would like to shield my son from that as much as possible. My husband has done an amazing amount of work to overcome the various dynamics, and it helps make our relationship healthier.

In regards to the therapy -- it was never a demand. DH suggested that we go into counseling after a particularly challenging thanksgiving. It was just after we'd gotten married, though we'd been together for 5 years before we did get married -- so we'd had many holidays before, none of which were particularly great. This one was particularly challenging because ILs were in an intense codependent relationship with SIL and her boyfriend who -- at the time -- were living with ILs as well as still being active addicts. We were already attending al-anon, and decided that we needed more help/support.

On the suggestion of the therapist, we invited the whole family to therapy with us. It was never a demand, and it didn't come from me. I agreed with DH that counseling would be a good idea -- because it would teach us more skills. And, when the therapist suggested it and DH decided to ask them to come, I supported that decision. They came to the first session, and didn't return. That's not a problem. We continued, and we did learn a lot of skills that helped at the time and have laid good boundaries that are still maintained today. And, we discover new ones all the time -- this is part of just learning about yourself, and learning why there is discomfort in the relationship.

I also know and accept what it is to have them in our lives. This drama is "normal" but when we find areas where we can set new boundaries -- based on new information about ourselves -- then we can step forward and make them. It's always a difficult transition period, but I'd rather do it before they arrive than when they arrive. I have no expectation that this is going to "fix everything perfectly!" But, I do feel positive that it will create a more positive experience for our little family.

In so far as travel goes, DH has presented many options for them. Any option of traveling without us was rejected with great prejudice. Lots of anger around "wanting to avoid them" and so on. It's not uncommon for family to do that (ie, when my expat friends have family visiting, the family often travels alone, then returns home for time with the family, then travels, and so on). But, we have been able to come up with something that we think is work-able.

First, we are able to prioritize DS's needs, though they feel that it's inappropriate and poor parenting, so we hear a fair bit about it. But, we did inform them that the basic structure of the holiday will be based on what DS can handle.

So, the first week will be in wellington, and they'll stay in the hostel in the city (a 20 minute drive for us). It's got great transportation and everything they need to get around, grocery store right across the street, cafes all around, and the harbor walk and three major museums within 2 kms. We'll stay in our home. We'll also fill up a bus pass for them and give them information on how to get to our neighborhood -- should they want to come (it's a 45 minute bus ride, so who knows?).

The second week/10-days will be travel. We've suggested several routes, most of which they reject because there is "nothing to see." Admittedly, most of NZ is hiking. Our plan for the first 3 days is to do three different sections of the Queen Charlotte track, then two days in Nelson (they have a great, fun farmers market on Saturday, and then on Sunday, we'll do the Queen's gardens), and then head up to Golden Bay to hike in Abel Tasman park for another 3 days. Then we'll take a couple days to drive back to the ferry/airport (i fly), and then back to wellington for the final days/week.

DS can manage 6-7 km hikes on steep terrain, so he'll be fine. I'm not sure what MIL and FIL are up to, but they are both pretty active/fit, so hopefully they'll be cool.

I'll be working that week, so DH and DS will be with the ILs. We have a lot of activities lined up for both wellington weeks -- the first week includes a day trip up the kapiti coast, and potentially another into the waiarapa.

Because we want DS to have a positive experience -- and for him to be less prone to tantrums, etc -- we'll be maintaining his normal bed times and eating routines -- whether we are in transit or in wellington. we discovered when my parents were here that having my parents in "our" room was over stimulating/exciting to DS and would cause him to freak the heck out and not go to bed. Then, he'd wake up grumpy and get himself overstimulated again, which lead to tantrums. Compound that with grandparent-sweeting the kid to the gills, and lets say it wasn't the most pleasant holiday. And, at the time, my parents blamed us for not being good parents, but then later realized that DS was 1. dealing with the trauma of the bicycle accident that sent him to the hospital to have his face glued back together; 2. the stress of travel; 3. the excitement of seeing his grandparents; and 4. general over stimulation. And 5. my mother admitted that they weren't that helpful/supportive (my family hates to travel, so they were feeling anxious too) -- and mostly kept raising DH's ire because they kept saying that we needed to 'discipline him better.'

So, we learned about 5 days into the trip that having his grandparents in the room was overstimulating, so we would do stories with them in THEIR room, then cuddles, then good nights, then go into our room, do two more stories, and then out like a light in 5 minutes flat. We did that for the rest of the trip, and there wer no more tantrums from 7 pm until 11 pm. And, I had a cheerier kid in the morning, too.

Thus, a lot of these sorts of dictates are for DS -- but admittedly they are also for my sanity. I need time of quiet and alone -- and I need to be away form people on a regular basis. DS's local "grandma" -- my friend's mother who is an artist -- spends time with him every sunday afternoon (before we all do a family pot luck, so it's like he has a baby cousin, an aunty/uncle, and a gran) and DH usually goes and has alone time and then I usually go my own way and have alone time. DH and I seriously need alone time.

These holidays are difficult for us because there isn't any alone time. When my Aunt came (the cool psychologist), it was awesome. She needs alone time too. So, we set it up so that we all had alone time every day, just switching who was watching DS. There was lots of fun, tons of alone time, and a strong sense of privacy even though we all shared a room. It was great. But, she gets boundaries -- and she sets them too.

My ILs and my parents don't get them quite as well, though we do better with my parents than with my ILs. Still, I think we'll do ok so long as I have a place/mechanism to get away -- and becuse I'm very protective of DS in regards to them, I need to be able to take him with me if I need to go. He's still my baby, even if he's 4.

[Zoebird]

DH and I had a profitable time today.

First, we just came to the conclusion that the boundary that we're looking for is for them to criticize/shame less.

The issue is that if they don't like a decision, they hold it against you and complain about it, grouse, shame, pick on, and generally criticize about it ad infinitum. We realize and agree that they don't have to like, agree with, or understand our decisions and actions, but we want them to respect that these are the decisions that we made, and not criticize us for them incessantly. It is fine to share your feelings about it, your upset, or whatever, but ultimately, they need to come to terms with those feelings or not -- but it is not appropriate to continue to criticize and blame us for those feelings that they hold.

Second, we'll clarify the boundary about 'going between' as well as how to communicate your feelings to engage in dialogue, rather than blaming, accusing, and shaming.

Third, we are going to talk about the holiday plans in general -- what the ideas are and whether or not there are things that they want to do in specific. I'll also ask them for their daily budget -- housing, food, gas and other costs. This will impact what we can do. A lot of things in/around NZ cost money to do, because they are on private land and the land-owner is responsible for keeping the area safe and clean under environmental and safety standards. That's no small feat for most average land owners. Thus, if it's not in the national parks, it costs money to go into these areas and see certain things -- so that will need to be communicated with them.

We'll also talk about what we learned from our last trip about DS's needs, and how we want DS to have a very positive experience -- as we want for all of us. His needs for consistent food and sleep are vital, as are opportunities to play in play grounds. DS was happiest on holiday when he was in the play grounds, which we went to every 2nd or third day. So, i've put those into the plans too, as best I can. So we'll talk about his needs, and how they can help support his needs while they are here. This is just to introduce the idea, gently, that he'll be going to bed by 8. Though I think that MIL would agree because she has strong opinions about bed time. :)

As far as the details go -- and how DH and I will manage different things -- we'll keep that to ourselves and just do what we need to do and plan the trip in such a way as to make it as comfortable for us as possible, while also trying to balance my IL's needs in so far as they communicate them clearly. DH and I recognize that we likely won't do anything right (or, that's our overriding feeling when we're around them), but we'll do our best.

And, when we do have a game-plan for the trip (an itinerary), we'll send them a copy and they can make suggestions or whatever they want.

I want the holiday to be relaxing for us. Last year's with my parents was pretty much a nightmare, and I get along pretty well with them. This year, I just need more time to chill. :)

[sweetana3]

I also think your discussion was very positive and moving in the right direction.

[herbgeek]

Its good that you and DH are on the same page.

One way I have found that is effective on the boundary of criticism of my decisions is to calmly say "hubby and I have discussed it, and this is what's best for us. I realize you may disagree, but the decision has been made, and I don't want to hear anymore about it" said as kindly as possible. And then when the criticism comes up, say "I already said this is no longer open for discussion." and just change the subject or walk away and do something else.

I have noticed on your many posts a tendency to explain/argue/rationalize, often at long length, on threads. Its likely you do this in real life too. If you do this with ILs, you are encouraging them to continue to engage. You can't change them, but you can change your own behavior. You don't have to justify to them. Just refuse to talk about it. Be a broken record "this topic is not up for discussion". Don't try to convince them, as you won't. You don't need to. You just need to do what is right for your family, no explanation or rationalization needed. You don't need to be angry about it. You know how they are, and that they won't approve. Accept that. Don't keep trying to get them to come around. They won't. And that doesn't matter. They don't need to "respect" your decision. They can be angry or disappointed or disapprove. Allow them to be who they are, and do what you need to do anyways.

[Fawn]

You have done a lot of research and work to learn intellectual ways of dealing with these family dynamics Those can only take you so far. I'm guessing that your yoga work has taught you how to find your calm and loving center. I expect that that resource will be very useful when they are visiting.

That said, I would not invite toxic family members into my home, even for a Skype call. And I know boundries are something that is always a challenge with people who have not learned them and see no benefit to it. But here's and age appropriate one you can teach your son (related to his grandmother commenting on his uncircumsized penis): "Yes, your penis is a wonderful thing. But it is a private wonderful thing. We do not pee in public or run around with our pants off outside the house. We do not talk about our penises or vaginas in public. We talk about their wonderfulness and/or health only with mommy and daddy and the doctor or nurse." You can explain that it is just a cultural expectation, not a good/evil thing.

[leslieann]

Hi, Zoebird. I wish you the best with this. It is taking a lot of your time and energy.

Expecting other people to change their behaviour is not boundary setting.

Refusing to accept shaming is a boundary. Insisting that other people stop saying something...that is about trying to change their behaviour. We don't get to do that (perhaps with our children). We don't have to take it on, take it in, or listen but we don't get to set that boundary on their behaviour.

That's my 2cents for what it is worth. Be careful that you are not creating "boundaries" that are wishful thinking about ways to control others.

That said, I want to reiterate.....hugs to you in this challenging situation. Fawn makes a good point about staying with your open-hearted centre; it may provide better guidance than all the thinking possible.

[Stella]

I think that I'm partly torn because they *are* coming from far away. I don't want them to be triple upset that their time with DS will be limited between 10 am and 6 pm (two meals, two activities per day) except when traveling when we'll also do breakfast together as well. If I have to walk away from them with DS because I feel they are being to aggressive, how do I most effectively do that without causing too big of a flap because there is no place for any of us to go?

I had an experience on our last vacation where I had to set a boundary with my ILs and walk away. It's a bit of a complicated backstory. Zach's mom left when he was a kid and came back when he was a teen. She was physically abusive, including once having his mentally challenged oldest brother sit on him while she choked him, beating him with her shoes and having her husband beat him. Needless to say, neither Zach or I trust her at all.

Anyway, we kept our visits with her short. We wanted to see his brothers and they are kind of a package deal or we probably wouldn't have seen her. She wanted us to have our children blessed at her church, which we were uncomfortable with. We have very different religious beliefs. We have no issue with that, except that we do not choose to practice their religion and are not comfortable participating in it ourselves. Zach told her this and she flipped out. She started sobbing and arguing. I told her and her husband that unless we could discuss the matter calmly, I would have to take the children back to our hotel room. I didn't want fighting in front of the children. She backed down. Her husband said, "this is your mother's decision". Zach told him calmly that these were our children and we are responsible for making decisions involving their care. Her husband started shouting, accusing Zach of tearing their family apart by not giving his mother what she wanted. I packed up the children and started towards the car. His mom calmed herself down and asked me politely if I could hold on and if she could talk to Zach in private. Zach said that he would like to talk to her, so I stayed, ready to leave, while they talked. She didn't like our decision, but she wasn't hysterical anymore. Her husband stared at Zach when they got out and stayed silent the rest of the dinner. His brothers seemed extremely embarassed and made a big effort to be nice to all of us. I'll admit I was very, very uncomfortable.

It didn't end as well as one might have hoped. We had to explain our boundaries to our older kids, who understood and felt defensive of their father. Zach tried to call his mother on Mother's Day and was turned away. She and her husband did not acknowledge his college graduation or the birth of our baby. That's their right. If they are not interested in contact with us, that is their decision to make. Their reaction, their anger, is theirs to own.

Will you be driving together? I would recommend against that if you are afraid there may be confrontation. If not, you will have a place to retreat to no matter what. The hotel room, a park, a restaurant or, if necessary, back home. While it's good to be aware of the fact that they traveled from far away, ultimately if they choose the behaviours (yelling, saying nasty mean things, hysterics) they choose the consequences. It's their choice that those consequences happen half a world away from home.

I second the Al-anon suggestion. That has been a HUGE help to me. Huge.

[razz]

Just to add to others' helpful comments, you did not cause them to make their choices in behaviour or to visit you for three weeks, you cannot control their choices in their behaviour or during their visit, you cannot cure their behaviour during their visit or other times.
All that you can do is ensure that you have privacy and space all your own. Use your own vehicle, let them choose their plans/itinerary from various options, be gracious at the times that you let them into your life and feel free to stop inappropriate behaviour by withdrawing or simply shutting the door.

[Zoebird]

As it turns out, it is really only online that I get to "work out" these long processes -- finding my way through writing/language/etc and also getting the opportunity to reflect on other's POV on a given topic. I find this enlightening. Usually, this sort of thing is on my own time, and then when I do get to the discussion with others, I stick to one-liners.

Unless I am in a place where dialogue is valuable -- that is, where it's going to be fruitful and we can talk about it -- I keep everything very succinct. In nearly every instance of a boundary with them, I identify for them what it is that is no longer acceptable/appropriate, and then assert what the boundary is (we will no longer talk about it; or, you are welcome to X, but not to Y, if it's a bit more of a complex situation).

In the situation with the 'moving to NZ thing' -- our plan is to simply say that it isn't up for discussion anymore. This is the decision that we have made, and that they can have whatever feelings they want to about it, but in the end, we just aren't going to hear it anymore.

But with this, DH needs to assert his feelings that he feels that he is being "picked on." this is not to say "you have to change your behavior" -- but to assert his feelings in a healthy way. Just as I feel if MIL was offended by my statements she should speak up and tell me so that we can talk about it and make amends, I think it's a good idea for DH to approach them as an adult and express his feelings -- which provides them with the opportunity to make amends, or not. But, he can also continue to assert it, which is being honest, and he can decide what he wants to do based on that.

In my own relationship with my parents, I had a similar situation. Over the last 5 years, I would say that my parents have really changed in regards to politics. They've always been republican, btu I'd always seen them as more moderate, and I don't remember them ever yelling or freaking out about it. I would say about 5 years ago, if I disagreed on a given point (usually even what was factual in the given instance), my dad would just start yelling and getting louder and going "NO! This IS what is happening!" and freak out. It was really unpleasant to spend any time with my family because everything was about this one view of politics, and any dissension such as "I don't believe that is the case, as I read X was the case" -- would cause a melt down.

So, I told my dad this one day that I really didn't want to talk about politics. He got rather upset about that, accusing me of apathy (rather than socialism or whatever else that he would at other times). And I told him that, in reality, it was because I was tired of being yelled at and accused of things, and it made it so not-fun for me that I didn't want to hang around with them anymore. So I said "if we are going to hang out, I suggest that we just not talk about politics."

Even though, on occasion, my dad will still bring something up, we usually just change the subject and he'll go with it.

So, I think it would be fair for DH to say that this treatment of him is creating a not-fun experience that discourages interest in 'being' with them (on Skype, etc), and as such, you know, if it continues he can decide whether or not he wants to Skype so frequently.

Because of similar circumstances, when we first moved here, we moved skyping to 1x per month. MIL was really aggressive with him, really fussy every call, and it would really get DH in a 'funk' during the week. It would take him 3-4 days to realize what he was upset and anxious about, which would affect everything in our lives.

Now, he's opened it back up to 1x per week, which is his prerogative, but I think it's gotten a bit burdensome again.

[Zoebird]

Oh, and I did look up Al-anon meetings. 1. closed to kids; 2. only available near us when I am working or DH is working -- and when the other is not working, we are with DS. So, it's unfortunately not an option right now.

And, like I said, I don't think we're going to "cure" anything in this trip or any conversation. The point is to put forth the boundaries/consequences when things get out of hand.

---

Driving: they are afraid to drive on the other side of the road; we will be sharing a vehicle.

The trip is planned to keep car-time to a minimum. We'll be taking the ferry (well, DH and his parents; DS and I will fly) to Picton, which will be our first "home base." We'll stay there three nights. Arriving in the middle of the first day, we'll go to the hostel and get situated there. DS and I will arrive around the same time. We'll likely go to a cafe for lunch (it's a big cafe culture here). ILs hate spending money, so they might not go for this. I just think it's easier at this point.

That afternoon, we'll wander around picton and go to the local children's park. Every town has one -- even the smallest. It's amazing. When we were in the most rural parts of the south island last time, there were still small playgrounds! :)

Then we'll return to the hostel for dinner, and get DS into the hostel routine (DH and I have a hostel routine with DS which keeps him grounded when traveling).

The next day, we'll drive about 30 minutes to a loop-to-lookout trail. this will take about 3 hours round trip, so we thought we'd take a picnic out with us to enjoy. The lookout is not dangerous cliff-side, it's a hill top that has a nice view of the sound. I found the trail in a book that I bought that has trails for disabled people as well as children. It's a cool book, btw. :) It gives you a strong sense of the trail's terrain and you can gauge what your kid and/or disability can handle.

We will then drive back to Picton and take DS to the park again. Then back to the hostel for the dinner routine.

Next day is the same, just different direction from Picton.

Then the third day we'll drive between Picton and nelson, doing a small hike mid-way, and then arrive in Nelson and get comfortable at the hostel there, taking DS to the local park after we arrive. Then dinner routine.

Nelson has a great market on Saturday morning, so we'll go to the market after breakfast, and then explore the tiny town for a bit -- possibly doing the Center of NZ trail in the afternoon (it's about a 3 hr jaunt with kids). Then back to the hostel for the evening.

Sunday will be a bit more open. I'll probably take and teach a yoga class at a local studio -- visit with some friend,s and so on -- and then we are looking at going to the queen's garden for the afternoon. it's a tiny botanical garden and very nice.

Monday will send us to golden bay -- it's a bit of a tough drive over takaka hill so it takes a long time so that no one gets motion sickness. Then the place we are staying is on the other side of that. Then there are three places that DH wants to go to/see -- all of which require a bit of hiking but nothing oppressive.

which reminds me, I need to buy new vibrams for that.

[awakenedsoul]

Oh my God Zoebird. I've been following your posts for the past year. When I first read this thread, I have to admit, I did feel you were being passive aggressive with the Facebook. (Sorry. I don't do Facebook for that reason. It feels very Junior High School to me.) Now, having read all this other information, I agree that you sound very anxious. I can see why. It seems like you are trying to control the situation to avoid problems. What if you had no plans? Going someplace away from home is usually good. I recently had a short visit with my parents in Carmel, CA. I stayed one night at the same hotel as they were at, and stayed another night on my own at a B&B. They had arrived a day before I did and had a day to "do their thing" there. But three weeks! That's really intense. What if you just lived your life, and kept your normal schedule? What you have planned sounds like way too much to me.


If it were me, I would just try to practice extreme self care. Do things that relax and comfort you. Enjoy good meals, get plenty of sleep, take a nap if you can, do your hobbies, etc...Your son will pick up on the energy between the adults and act that out. It sounds like he was doing that with your parents.

I don't get along with one of my in laws. To avoid conflict, I visit my parents in Carmel now, instead of at their home. It's simpler, more pleasant, and I don't have to deal with conflict or drama. After our last trip, my dad offerred to pay for me to come do it again in the Fall. This was a nice surprise, and totally unexpected. I had asked him if he wanted to take a tour or go for a walk on the beach with me. (and our dogs.) He didn't want to do either. "Okay," I told him, and went on my own. I think because it didn't upset me, he relaxed a little. He didn't even want to eat breakfast with me. But, I didn't take it personally. He's dealing with some difficult problems and I am an introvert, so I get the need to be alone.

You sound like you are afraid of what is going to happen. Hopefully, you can always go home and feel relaxed and safe. Journaling is really helpful, too. (But not on Facebook!)

[Zoebird]

yes, I am anxious about it; and I was anxious about my family coming too. There are lots of reasons for this, and I find that a decent amount of planning helps.

for my own part, my main thing is to make sure that DH and I get to do some things that we want to do and DS too.

but, unlike going to europe (in my experience), planning is really needed here for a trip to go well. There are lots of arrangements that need to be made in advance so that you can do the things that you want do, and most of what is available here is situated in the natural world. Yes, there are museums and sites, but most everything is based in the out doors. :)

and, there is also a measure of scarcity. you cannot expect to find housing if you plan your december trip in October. You have to do it by April to get *exactly* what you want, and because they didn't buy their tickets in april, we didn't make any arrangements. Now, I'm having to go with second and third choice accommodations, days to go on the ferry (the original date i'd planned were all booked), etc.

So, some of it is simply pragmatic.

The other side of it is trying to gauge what my needs are and likely will be. I've never spent that much time with DH's parents. Early on, we would go for over-nights, but after a time, we decided that only 3 hrs each visit was enough. Before DS was born, that was about 4-5 times per year. After DS was born, Dh and my ILs would spend 2 hrs together on Sat mornings (when I was working), and then I would join for lunch (about an hour, hour and a half), and then they would go home.

In addition, we love to travel ourselves and there are lots of things that we would like to do/see. Right now, what I would love to do is rent a camper van and do a tour of the south of the south island -- in particular in and around queenstown. but, that would be a really bad idea with my ILs, and they didn't want to drive their own anyway.

my MIL wants a full on driving tour of the south island, but that would be too much time in the car (average 4-5 hrs), and that's too close for comfort. So, I thought we'd do this sort of "day trip" sort of holiday.

Honestly, if I had my way, they would go on a cruise and meet us for their last week here in Wellington, and while they were on their cruise, the three of us would have a relaxing, fun, family holiday.

[reader99]

Zoebird, I reread your message above. It would be very easy for someone to take such comments in a way not intended since you are not "there" with a smile or an explanation. You may feel your comments "were not negative" but being compared even slightly to someone with dementia or another relative who sends old and useless articles would really hurt, especially to someone who has even the slightest preexisting lack of self confidence in the relationship with her daughter in law.

If you want to calm the waters, apologize profusely and only apologize. Do not comment on your inlaws (or other family members) in any way on Facebook. I agree with the poster that anything in writing will come back and bite you one way or the other. It has a way of living a very long life.

If you want to be right regardless of the consequences, go right ahead and attempt to change their minds.

Yes. If I were they, it would look to me as if my well intended article-sending was being derided. As has been said, without facial expression and tone of voice, it can seem harsh.

[reader99]

My suggestions... Al-Anon, as a great, free way to be mentored in unlearning any kind of co-dependency, & learn better, kinder boundary setting. Also, Byron Katie's work, especially her "Your business, my business, god's business" statement.

+1

[iris lily]

I don't see the OP as trying to change the inlaws, but I have to wonder just how much "shaming" and how many prickly interactions have to take place before she decides: ok, no more intensive vacations with the inlaws and no more often scheduling ANYTHING with them. Fortunately, your DS will grow up and will likely become less interested in far away grandparents.

OP I can't help but remember your post about how yu learned that you, as an adult, didn't have to move each time and with your parents. If that was a light bulb moment, I hope that you get clarity about this situation as well.

[razz]

Zoebird, as someone who wrestled with disapproval from my mohter for many of my decisions in child rearing, nutrition etc., I have a special empathy for what you are going through. In her late 70's she did admit that she had been so wrong in judging and her opinions but at that point, while it was nice to hear the apologies, it simply did not matter anymore.

When my two kids turned 16, I figured that I would provide my opinion and view of the risks and then let them decide with the stated understanding that it was them alone who had to live with the consequences. I often did not understand their reasons for their decisions but they are intelligent, beautiful and successful human beings of whom I am proud. Why did I do this? I know that you will learn what you need for this and the next stage of your life just as everyone else does. No one can live another's life. Any attempt to do so is manipulative and even abusive. You do not need to tolerate this at all.

May I suggest that you practice the following until you can say it to all interfering adults with a lovely smile?

"Thank you for your thoughts on the matter/issue. We are completely different but very capable and intelligent people making our own choices for our future based on our values just as you made and make yours choices based on your values. There is nothing further to discuss on this matter/issue".

Rinse and repeat until you are a broken record with a lovely smile from both your DH and yourself to any and all who try to manipulate or coerce you in any way.

[jennipurrr]

Just reading this thread now...

I think it is good to set boundaries with the shaming, but I am a little worried about how the follow through with that will go. It seems like just reading this (and of course a lot is missed in the written word) that you still have a lot of expectations for their behavior. That's one of the things I got out of Alanon (DH was already there)...ditching the expectations for how people should behave. Of course your inlaws shouldn't shame and be ugly to you/dh/son, but asking/demanding they stop is not likely going to change them. Coming back and venting to the board about their ridiculous behavior is not going to change them. You have to put boundaries in place to whatever limit you are comfortable with and then be at peach with making the decision. It sounds like going your separate ways on the vacation if they go back to that behavior is something you and DH have decided you are not comfortable with. How are you going to handle it if the shaming/verbal abuse/tantrums continue? Because, you can only agree on and determine actions for you/dh/son.

And none of that was meant in judgement at all. We've received plenty of advice on what we need to do with MIL. Some people have been like, I would just cut her out unless stops drinking and she goes into rehab right now, etc. That's not a boundary DH or I is comfortable with. We have had to set our own boundaries that we are comfortable sticking with.

In addition to the drinking, I set A LOT of emotional boundaries with her. Facebook is always causing some drama in her life - the past couple years I have just made sure that it is not with me. One time I posted a status after we had visited her one summer weekend, about our air conditioning being broken when we returned home. She called DH wailing because of my status that she had some how misinterpreted to mean we hated our visit, and also she was upset because no one had posted pics. Ugh. In facebook now I share A LOT less and only occasionally "like" her statuses, pics of the grand kids, etc. As Iris suggested, keeping everything light and superficial with manipulative people is best. They do not need any ammo! DH's sister looks like she is looking for any way possible to triangulate you. Do not engage her, send her pics, anything...it will only backfire. I highly recommend the books Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder and Who's Pulling Your Strings?: How to Break the Cycle of Manipulation and Regain Control of Your Life. Whether or not someone is actually diagnosed with BDP, I think the first is a very helpful book in understanding why some people can be so super manipulative.

[Karma]

I haven't read all of the replies but can't help but think that I would be hurt to find out my DIL was posting about my behaviors that she found funny or odd and if someone posted stuff like that about my parents I would be pissed. What might be humorous in person and would bring on a smile and an eye roll isn't always something that should be put on the Internet. What if the tables were turned and they started posting stuff about you? Maybe that you are cheap or always buy the wrong sorts of gifts or something.

Don't make this situation into something were you unfriended people or force them to discuss things the way you want but instead tell them you are sorry from a place of love. If that doesn't work then let it go and things will calm down in time. Don't over think it.

[Zoebird]

I suppose it should be noted that I have never gone on holiday with my ILs before. As I said, after about age 23/24 (for me -- so after about 3/4 years), we contained visits to 3 hrs or less, and then also I would 'skip' several and DH would go ahead. I then also asserted strongly that I don't want them around DS unattended, and DH agreed. Likewise, I am rarely on skype with them beyond saying "hello" and attempting to extract myself without criticism (extracting myself always attracts criticism; if i don't extract myself, that also attracts criticism -- that I am "horning in" on their time with their son). So we/i do have some clear actions there.

I've also used the different phrases "this is not up for discussion anymore." and I also use the (what they feel is very offensive), "i didn't ask for your permission, blessing, or opinion on the matter. this was simply to inform you of the situation."

The belittling and trivializing is far more subtle than you can imagine. Part of the reason why that statement (among others) was taken so personally is because this is how they make statements. No statement is neutral. If they said "Your hair looks different today." It's said in a negative tone, as in 'different is wrong." If we are still in our PJs when they Skype (we tend to have a PJ day, and sometimes their Skype gets pushed to that day), then it's "oh, I see you are still in your pjs." Not an observational, neutral -- oh you are in your pjs -- but a harshly judgmental "why are you still in your pjs? it's late in the morning. you should be dressed already." And when we explained once what a PJ day is, they got really derisive about how we were wasting time, not getting things done, don't we have any work ethic, etc.

In any case, I also see what you (ya'll?) are saying about the issue of changing behavior vs setting boundaries. The convolution on my part comes from trying to parce out the difference, but with this, in dialogue with DH -- he completely and totally wants them to change. He wants closeness with his family, he feels that this is only possible if they change, and he wants them to "elevate their consciousness."

I keep telling him that it's not our responsibility, and it's highly unlikely anyway. Nothing that we can do or "encourage" will create that outcome. They have to be self-motivated to change, and in the last 15 years that I've known DH, there hasn't been any change on their part. FIL has horrible nightmares based on his past (as well as severe anxiety in the form of heart palpitations, etc that he had 'fixed' through surgery and heart medicine), and it has been suggested not only by us, but also by his own doctors that he gets psychological care. He flatly refused, saying that it's simply "not the way his generation does things" and that he "doesn't see how it will help." And ultimately, that he's not interested (and he's also very angry that his doctor keeps 'bringing it up over and over' -- we only mentioned it once after he had a severe panic attack and have not mentioned it again).

So, I had to talk to DH about this. His actual "hope for the trip" was that over the next six months that they would "improve so much" that they would be able to be with DS alone. I told him that we would not be changing that boundary. I pointed out that the reason we don't send DS to public school is because of the inherent punishment model. DH watched it in action several times and found it appalling, even though it's considered good teaching, good discipline (nonviolent and such), and normal. We know that is not what we want for DS.

So when I asked DH about this -- would you consider your parents, as they are now, more like that teacher, equal to that teacher, or less like that teacher whom you saw? And he admitted that the teacher is probably healthier, more clear, and better adjusted (not to mention trained) than his parents. And I pointed out "if we refuse to send our son their because of our concern for his emotional safety under the punishment model, why would you feel secure in him sending time with your parents unattended?" He saw that point, and agreed that it is unlikely that their behavior would improve (i mean, taking on a whole new world-view in 6 months? not likely), and that we would hold to that boundary.

I did agree that "yes, it would be nice" if he could have a close relationship with his parents, if they could be with DS on their own, and so on -- but the reality of our situation is that this is not the case.

So, we had to try and figure things out -- such as boundaries -- and also things like 'what are safe topics' and 'what are behaviors that we can employ in relation to them.'

For whatever reason, DH wants to share his feelings with his parents. His disappointment that their relationship isn't better; the way he feels when they talk to him; and how they trivialize his feelings. He'll assert that he feels this -- and has felt this for a long time -- and that he simply no longer wants to tolerate it.

He also agreed that he'll follow a "three strikes" sort of policy on Skype -- that when the first statement is made that he finds hurtful, he will say so. When the second statement comes, he'll identify that one too. And on the third, he'll simply say that he feels that this is starting to get hurtful, so it's time for him to move on with his day and that it was nice getting to see them. He was very uncomfortable with the idea of simply ending the Skype call because he wants to see them (because he wants to be close to them), even though every call ends in him feeling like "well, that wasn't fun" and he usually feels bad about himself for several days, and we have to work through that material.

We also discussed skyping less again -- going back to 1-2x per month rather than 3-4x per month.

And then with the trip, we are discussing various options. For example, I told hiim that we could simply assert that they would be traveling on their own for X days doing Y or some such. Or that he could travel with them while DS and I stay home and visit with DS's friends (play dates and such). Or that when we do travel with them, we have designated times of "quiet time" where DH, DS, and I would be out on our own, and they would be able to explore on their own (we'd even plan certain tracks for them, or when we are in small towns, give them the opportunity to see things).

This is in addition to things like -- making sure we have our own room, that after a certain time we are not hanging out (i.e., I"ll stay in the room with DS, DH is welcome to go out and be with this parents or not). and so on.

This should help me, and DH will also hold the boundary with statements like you have given.

[catherine]

The other side of their judging is how you receive it. My MIL was very outspoken and had very strong opinions. She was a great housekeeper, I was a struggling one. She did a LOT of thing differently than I did. She propped a baby bottle in the crib so she could spend her time cleaning--I would never consider that, as a breast-feeding mom.

One time after my son was born she came to visit me in my apartment. My first son cried A LOT--not sure if you would call it "colic"--I'm not fond of labels, so I simply would say he cried a LOT and I was very tired as a result. When she came she looked around my apartment and said, "What do you do, play with the baby all day?" Now, I could have felt shamed, or felt guilty, but I didn't. It was just her. I laughed, and I still laugh. It was so emblematic of our differences.

But when she died two years ago, I gave a loving eulogy. She had many, many wonderful things about her which I admired. I WISH I could have been as assertive. I WISH I could have been the housekeeper she was. On the same token, she told me over the years that she admired my tolerance for other people.

I guess the point is, you don't have to accept the shame. I agree that you have to protect your son from feeling shame, but if you are an adult, if she says, "Oh, so you still have your PJs on," I'd say, "yes, I do." I wouldn't take it as a ding, and I certainly wouldn't feel guilty, even if it were meant judgmentally. So what?

I know that there are lots of painful dynamics in family relationships, but from what you said, Zoebird, do you think you could take it less personally? She is who she is, and you are who you are. You are not in this world to please her, or vice versa, but from your comments I hear a lot of angst about her opinion of you.

[awakenedsoul]

Sometimes what works for me is to be very direct and like a mother who won't put up with any BS. I have a neighbor who is very difficult and wants to fight. I avoid him because I know he's older and is not going to change. Yesterday I was putting a border of large pinecones in my front garden bed. He started yelling, "Don't put those there! I'll kick 'em off. You're blocking my mailbox. The mailman is going to run over them." Because I'm so tired of his bossiness and control, I was very strong with him. "The property line in RIGHT THERE. You have NO Boundaries. Just keep smoking." I know it really shocked him because I am normally very quiet. We have a long history and I had to take him to court to get him to stop his abuse and harrassment. The judge put a stop to it, but it's been very challenging and I wasn't able to sell my home to move away from him. It worked. The mail carriet delivered the mail as usual, with no problem. This man and I are like oil and water. We will probably never get along. But, I push myself to stay on track with my goals and not waste energy ruminating about him and why I'm attracting this, etc...

I live in a neighborhood that is very low income, and many of the people are antagonistic and have addiction problems. Another woman was rude to me unexpectedly one time, so I just said to her, "Speak for yourself. Gotta go." She slips into name calling a lot. I'm not going to put up with it. I've started shifting my tone into what I call teacher mode. It's like Judge Judy. I find it works. Saying something right at the time. Naming the behavior and looking them right in the eye. I try not to instigate confrontation, but if a person is really pushing it, this has helped me let them know that I don't tolerate their disrespect.

[Karma]

Maybe you read too much into simple comments and spend way too much time analyzing them. A great read about not taking things personally and not making assumptions is The Four Agreements.

[rodeosweetheart]

It kind of sounds in your last post that you are trying to regulate how your husband relates to his family, and that is not going to work out in the long run. I have had issues with my husband's family, and I have had to work hard (not always successfully) to remember that they are MY issues with my family, and he is always going to love his family, as that is just the way it goes. He is always goign to defend them and give them the benefit of the doubt, so I have to keep my feelings about what they do MY feelings, and not expect him to share them, or try to arrive at some "party line"--at least that is my experience, tht it does not work.

[Stella]

It kind of sounds in your last post that you are trying to regulate how your husband relates to his family, and that is not going to work out in the long run. I have had issues with my husband's family, and I have had to work hard (not always successfully) to remember that they are MY issues with my family, and he is always going to love his family, as that is just the way it goes. He is always goign to defend them and give them the benefit of the doubt, so I have to keep my feelings about what they do MY feelings, and not expect him to share them, or try to arrive at some "party line"--at least that is my experience, tht it does not work.

Yes! As tempting as it is to try to control a spouse's relationship with their family of origin, it's not a good idea. It's a hard line to find sometimes, but it's important. Zach doesn't get along with my mom, but I would be ticked if he gave me limits on how often I could talk to her, banned her from being alone with my kids and made me agree to give her warnings when she said something that bothered me. I'd feel patronized. I'm a fully grown adult. My relationship with my family, and his relationship with his, is mine to manage.

[iris lily]

It kind of sounds in your last post that you are trying to regulate how your husband relates to his family, and that is not going to work out in the long run...

Well, in an earlier post she said something about her DH wanting her around during the difficult conversations with the inlaws.

I'd not allow myself to be put into that uncomfortable position. While I would watch how inlaws interacted with my child because it's my job to protect child from harm, it's not my job to protect my spouse from harm 'specially when that spouse seems to want something that he's not going to get from his parents.

[awakenedsoul]

Also, sometimes grandparents do much better with the child alone. Even if they were poor parents. My mother was hooked on alcohol and prescription drugs while raising us. She still is. The weird thing is, she does very well with her grandchildren. They are happy and content with her. She said it's much easier without the parents around. Grandparents usually really love their grandchildren and they are very different with them than with their own children. There's less pressure. My brother wasn't ever going to leave his kids alone with my parents, but now he does, and they're all happy with the arrangement.

[sweetana3]

I think we will let Zoebird decide on the grandparents access. She has far more intimate knowledge of their history with her husband and son.

Since their son had issues being raised by them and she has seen issues with the way they treat her son, she will need to be the one to decide whether to allow access. Just because they are biological grandparents does not in any way make them automatically safe to leave children with. Maybe the grandparents will show more joy and less anger at the parents and the family dynamic will change over time.

[Zoebird]

I haven't clouded the issue around what my husband is and isn't choosing to do.

I did explain to him how what he wants isn't "creating boundaries" as you all said, but I didn't discourage him from doing whatever it is that he wants to do with them in regards to his relationship. We also did openly discuss how he feels after different events and phone calls, and what his thought on that is -- and what he wants to do about it. For him, containing time and topics seems to be what works best, and in gearing up for the trip, we did discuss various options about being about to have a certain amount of alone time.

I did stand up for my boundary in regards to DS not being alone with ILs and went through the explanation process. In this, he does need to agree with me so that we are holding the same line. If asked about it, I'll simply tell my ILs (as per my job) that it is my preference that DH or myself stay with DS and it's not up for discussion or criticism.

I also wrote down for myself the very real fact that I need a lot of "down and away" time. While most people think of me as an extrovert (as I am friendly and also have a very public-facing job), the reality is that I am an introvert (and really, a loner, which is a specific kind of introvert who really prefers to be alone A LOT), and as such I do need time where I feel safe and secure and time in quiet.

Thus, when DS has gone to bed, I will be staying with him -- and either reading or doing things on the computer or watching movies or whatever else that *I* want to do as my "down time." DH is welcome to hang with his parents, but we are going to be holding firm a bed time and I will be able to get some down time. Also, when we are traveling or when we are in town, I will also be granted space for "down time" where I can do my own thing or DS and I will do our own thing, and DH can join us or his parents.

For example, most of the towns where we are going have yoga studios -- and I plan to go and visit them and start making connections with them (networking). It will also provide me the opportunity to take a lot of yoga classes, which I haven't done in a long time. And, I want to do it without ILs (though they practice yoga too) because I want to be able to make a meeting/coffee with the owners/teachers to talk about their environment, industry, business, etc (essentially to learn from them). I'll also likely be working on a "yoga tour" blog for one of the online yoga magazines that I often write for (i know, working on holiday! tsk tsk! but it means I get to count some things as business expenses!).

So, I can definitely hold boundaries around those things.

Also, to take down my own stress/frustrations, DH is going to do the trip planning, presenting, and organizing. In general, this is my job in our family. I've done this as a favor for DH for his parents when they go on cruises. They don't want to take the trips that you pay extra for, and so I go and create a "walking tour" of a given city for them. I price it out, plan it out, and present an itinerary. Each time, they abandon the itinerary and do whatever the cruise director tells them -- not seeing anything on the trip. The first time I did this for them, I did it when they went to scandinavia. They asked me to do this for several of their trips (or rather, asked DH, who asserted he was too busy and would I do it, so I did as a favor to him), and then only to have them trash it.

So when they asked him again last time, and he asked me, I said no -- because it is a lot of effort and work on my part, and it honestly hurt my feelings that they would ask for it, that I would go to the effort of giving them a "taste of copenhagen" by hitting the major sites and even meeting up with some danish friends of ours, only to have htem pitch it entirely and go see *one thing* in copenhagen and go right back to the boat.

When I have planned events for us in the past, it is usually met with a great deal of criticism, and I just feel like it's completely pointless for me to go to the effort. I sent them guide books and asked them what they wanted to do here, and made some suggestions -- but they said that they'll "do whatever" and DH "feels overwhelmed" by planning it.

But at the end of the day, I just realized that if I don't plan it, then I won't carry the criticism (and/or take it personally). He never understood in the past why I would get upset about planning things like their trip to scandinavia when they pitched it.

So, now he probably will. I sat down with him to show him how to do trip planning (he's never done it before), and then from there, it's up to him to choose the venues, where we are going on a given day, get the maps sorted (google maps, I told him that's the easiest way), and make all of the reservations. He'll need to know how much places costs (ie, we're going to a bird sanctuary and it costs money, he needs to know how much, and if he wants (optional) he can call them to see if there is a family discount or other specials available to us).

He's already asserted that "Wow, this is a lot of work." And he even said he could see how, if it were tossed or criticized, it would be upsetting because of how much work you put in. I told him that it gives me a lot of opportunity to practice "non-attachment."

It might be noted, though, that I really do enjoy planning these things -- and I do get disappointed with myself when the plans don't quite synch up right. LOL The biggest problem I've had so far with my NZ trips are these: year 1: far more rain than we expected, and as such, much less hiking/etc than I wanted, and likewise, I planned too great of distances between, so not a lot of time to actually stop and hike; 2. far more rain than we expected (see a pattern? lol!), and I didn't quite have a clear handle on the true extent of my father's mobility issues and how it relates to NZ experiences. I worked hard to find sites and venues that had good accessibility (flat places, interesting walks that were flat, short, with lookouts and benches), but between the rain and my father's complaints aobut the difficulty of walking a mile, those just got dashed.

So, what we have learned from each trip is what works with DS, and I figure because my ILs are more active, we can do more walking/hiking -- but DH will organizing so that I don't freak out and take things personally when they don't like whatever it is that we are doing. LOL

[awakenedsoul]

sweetana3,

I didn't mean that at all. I don't even know Zoebird and would never decide on anything for her. It's none of my business. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my post.

[Zoebird]

It should be noted again that *I* do not dictate how often or how long DH spends with his parents (online or in real life).

DH has always determined for himself how long he wants to spend with his family, how often he wants to talk to them, etc. For many years, he has gone and visited them for weekends when I have not, gone to family events that I have not, and he also skypes with them for as long as and whenever he wants. He drives that whole train, and I decide how much time I want to spend with them inside of that.

When it comes to DS, there are many reasons why I do not want my ILs to be alone with him, and it is perfectly justifiable for me to say so, and to express my feelings in this matter to DH. He agrees that he, too, doesn't like the way that DS is treated by his parents, and I ask him -- truly, do you want them to be alone with him? when you see how they treat him? -- and he agrees that it isn't nice at all, and that no, he doesn't want that. This was never a co-ersion on my part, but I would be hard pressed to leave my son alone with them (I can own that feeling).

In regards to the warnings/etc -- this is really simply the way that DH wants to set the boundary. I set things much more firmly with them myself -- it's always once and done. I continually use the "that's not really up for discussion" quite a lot with them. It shuts things down quickly. It was *DH* who decided that he would speak up when his parents upset him rather than simply "taking it" -- and he was the one who decided he would voice that three times before he would end the skype call. Not *once* did I dictate to him what I would do or what he "should" do. He really should only do what makes him feel comfortable. And that includes -- if he feels comfortable 'taking' it, then no big deal, he can continue on.

Likewise, DH did ask me to be present with him when he talks about these things with his parents. He wants me to pay attention because I pick up on their behaviors and dynamics more quickly than he does. Personally, I'd rather he handle it without me, because I know that I get very emotional about it and that doesn't help me at all.

So don't get the wrong idea that I'm 'forcing' DH to do anything he doesn't want to do. He's making the decisions in regards to his family. I'm making decisions around what *I* have to do, which gets muddled because I want to do things for DH. Like, if DH asks me to stay with him while he does X with his parents, I will do it *for DH* even if I don't really want to. I value what DH wants and needs, and I want to provide for him as best I can. BUT, I also have to acknowledge my own needs and that I need to take care of those too. So there's that layer.

[Zoebird]

and awakened, I didn't take your statement that way. I can understand where you are coming from and most everyone says this. But even my parents did a lot of things with DS that were not kosher with me (even after I told them it wasn't kosher), and while my mom was trying to hold the line, my dad just stepped right across it saying "oh, it's not that important. it's not that big of a deal." So mom told me when we got home because she wanted to be honest and up front about it, and she wanted me to reiterate to dad why I had the rule in the first place.

and dad said he doesn't agree, and i said he didn't have to agree, he just had to follow the rule -- because we decide what is ok and not ok. And, if you cna't follow the basic rules, then you'll have to be chaperoned.

And that's just feeding the kid too much sugar (it makes him go haywire and isn't fun for anyone).

My ILs do things that are cruel.

[awakenedsoul]

and awakened, I didn't take your statement that way. I can understand where you are coming from and most everyone says this. But even my parents did a lot of things with DS that were not kosher with me (even after I told them it wasn't kosher), and while my mom was trying to hold the line, my dad just stepped right across it saying "oh, it's not that important. it's not that big of a deal." So mom told me when we got home because she wanted to be honest and up front about it, and she wanted me to reiterate to dad why I had the rule in the first place.
and dad said he doesn't agree, and i said he didn't have to agree, he just had to follow the rule -- because we decide what is ok and not ok. And, if you cna't follow the basic rules, then you'll have to be chaperoned.

And that's just feeding the kid too much sugar (it makes him go haywire and isn't fun for anyone).

My ILs do things that are cruel.

Thanks Zoebird. I totally get it. You are the mother, and you know your child best. I know my brother doesn't want his kids eating Mac Donalds and that's what my parents get for them when they babysit. My mother used to get Joan Crawford angry with us, but she's so much mellower with the grandkids. (I wouldn't even leave my dog with her. Once I overheard her yelling at him and being really mean when she thought I was gone.) It's good that you protect your son. Sounds like you have good, clear communication with your mom. The roles seem to sort of switch as we get older. One of my mom's rules is, I have to follow the rules in her house, and that means that she gets to yell. So now we meet in Carmel, and I stay at a B&B. I guess there will always be mild power struggles...

[Zoebird]

It is true that there are always family "issues." But, I feel lucky that my parents really respect me and treat me as an adult. Yes, there are dynamics that don't work. THere is codependency, emotional eating, and a lot of things that I've gotten quite adept at holding boundaries around and changing the subject if need be. And, my parents are good at that -- and don't really go into tantrums. I feel like, if I need to, I can speak to them adult-to-adult, and the child/adult aspects of our relationship have adapted nicely into the adult-child/adult parent relationship.

My ILs want to manage us. Because they are not happy within their own lives, even if we did what they wanted 100% (which MIL never hesitates to communicate) they still wouldn't be happy. Even so, by not doing what MIL wants, she does lash out a fair bit -- cruelly towards DH, DS, and on occasion, towards me, but I don't have it (so she's stopped testing those waters for the most part).

We know this. And we also know that we cannot change them (no matter how much DH wants to), and we can maintain proper boundaries with them so long as they are defined *for us*. I can define certain boundaries for myself, as well when traveling with them. One thing that we do now -- as a family -- is having quiet time. Quiet time is really imperative for me, and DS does quite well with it as well as it fits within our rhythm.

So in planning our trip, we are putting in certain things with our natural family needs/rhythms and then we'll just let them know what it is and why and how it works. DH is doing the planning (though he's cranky about it -- heh), and I think it will go well. Particularly now that I've worked through my feelings on it all and realized that I don't have to spend every minute with them (which is what they expect and DH 'wanted' of me, but unsaid).

I just know that I can make my own space, and I'll be ok.

Though I am ticked that they were really rude about my friend's on last week's skype call. And my parents. It was just mean. But, whatever. I'm trying to get over it. LOL

[rodeosweetheart]

"I just know that I can make my own space, and I'll be ok."

Awesome, that sounds great. If you can have your own space, you can take a breather from them.

"Though I am ticked that they were really rude about my friend's on last week's skype call. And my parents. It was just mean. But, whatever. I'm trying to get over it."
Is it possible to stop getting mad at what they do? They sound rather awful, and the trip sounds exhausting, having to put up with so much of them, and protecting your son from them. Can you go visit them instead and stay in a hotel, perhaps? Are you really going to spend 3 weeks with these people?
If you are stuck with this trip--and why would you be, really, as adults--then is it possible to just realize that you don't like them, and you are not going to like what they do or say, and it is not worth getting angry about? Rudeness sounds par for the course for your husband's parents. They are not going to ever behave the way you would like them to--people just don't change that much, and you guys obviously have good reason to dislike their behaviors, so can you work on changing how you react to them?

Although personally, I would cancel the trip, because who needs to inflict that much mutual misery on each other?

[Zoebird]

Right now, we live in new zealand and they live in pennsylvania. We cannot afford to return to the US for many reasons (one, we financially cannot afford it. period. two, we cannot leave the business for as long as would make a trip to the US financially worthwhile or viable right now).

Likewise, I would not spend $10,000+ on a trip to sit and be ignored in my MIL's living room. We have already discussed that when we go back to the US, we'll likely rent a camper van and do a nice road trip -- seeing things like Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon, and lots of other sites as we head east. We might make a short trip to PA where our families live, but honestly, we have already seen most of the sites in that area (we thought taking DS through our favorite parts of the AT would be cool, though), and so it's not a huge draw for us. And honestly, the time and money would be better spent on our adventures.

So, my ILs can afford to come to NZ and want to come. My husband wants them to come.

Part of this, too, is that I am 'family tripped' out. It's been two years running that my holiday has been with someone else -- not just our family. THe first one was great -- having my aunt here was amazing. Yes, there were problems in the trip -- lot of them -- but at least I came back feeling rested and being with Edna was amazing. With my parents, it was stress from soup to nuts, though the trip up to Auckland (Dh, DS, and myself) was amazing and fun. It was really mellow and DS was doing very well with the trip. But once my parents came, it turned into one long nightmare until the last three days.

If I had my way, this year would just be DH, DS, and myself in a campervan going around the South Island at our own pace for 2-3 weeks. You can camp anywhere really (which is cool), and so we'd just have to stock up in the given towns and make sure we had enough for 3-4 days in the rural areas. We have spots that we'd like to visit and hike, play in the hot streams/pools, or swim in beaches or fresh-water streams or lakes. There are so many places that we saw with Edna that we want to visit again (DS is particularly taken with Omaru), and there are so many things that we want to see that we haven't seen yet.

I suggested that my ILs have a camper van and we have a camper van and go that way, but the price point and the fact that MIL/FIL would be driving "by themselves" in their van while DH, DS, and myself were in our van caused a massive flap. MIL complained and complained about the costs (it costs about $5-10 per day more than driving ourselves/hosteling), about the stress of having to drive on the wrong side of the road, and of "never getting to be with DH/DS while traveling" Even though the plan is never to drive more than 2 hours at a time when changing locations, and if we decide we want to stay in a given place for more days than "planned' (In fact, I would have no specific plans per se), then we would stay and enjoy ourselves.

MIL felt that she was being "cheated" out of the "kind of holiday that Edna and [my parents] got." So, after much fussing, that plan was scrapped.

I then planned 3 more possible itineraries, all of which have been fussed over ad infinitum because they don't see as much or go as far as edna and my parents did. Which is why I suggested they travel some of it on their own, which caused another flap.

At the end of the day, doesn't matter what I (or DH) does or does not plan, I expect they won't like it.

And I really don't want to have a crap holiday. ANd I'm kinda pissy about it.

Also, in regards to reactivity -- the answer is yes. But the reality is that sometimes you just have emotions and those emotions are justifiable. I have no expectation of my ILs being particularly pleasant. But, we were coming off of a *really bad* situaiton the prior week (which started this post stream), and then they ask me about DS's doings and I talk about my friends (who is hawk's friend's mother), and she got really nasty about it.

And while I didn't react and I just changed the subject, afterwards, I was like "really, seriously?" and I feel hurt that I have to put up with their stupid crap for 3 solid weeks, even if I can make boundaries and what not. ANd I don't want to have to be hypervigilant for DS while on my holiday, etc, helping DH through his emotional landscape while on holiday, etc.

I just wnat a holiday. I work 60 hr work weeks right now. I"m working on immigraiton paperwork now. I'm doing everything in my power to make it work here -- including paying for a holiday that *i* really don't wnat to do or go on.

I really would just like a real holiday that, yuo know, actually takes ME into consideration -- rather than "I want what edna and your parents had!" and "I want to be with my grandson" and "here, let me completely be a complete jerk to you while I get what I want" from people.

It's, like, I just want to freaking go hiking and to the beach and eat the food that I liek without comment and be with my son and enjoy him without comment on my parenting or my friend's parenting or my hair style or my son's hair style or my husband's hairstyle and why we live in such a crappy place and why would anyone live here.

Right?

I just need a holiday.

[herbgeek]

including paying for a holiday that *i* really don't wnat to do or go on.

This is really the crux of the issue, right? So no amount of advice (and you've been given huge amounts of excellent advice) is really going to change anything.

[Miss Cellane]

Based on your latest update, why do you let MIL control your entire family to this extent?

Her complaining is the same as the tears or temper tantrums that other people use to get their own way.

Until you and your DH can stand up to the complaining and just let it roll off your backs, you will be controlled by MIL.

Your conflict resolution style, talking things out and trying to problem solve, just feeds into her guilt trip. By trying to reason with her, you give her hope that she will get her own way.

Just tell her "no" and be done with it. Just hang up or walk away from the complaints. If she's like most bullies, once you stand up to her, she'll back down.

[rodeosweetheart]

I really would just like a real holiday that, yuo know, actually takes ME into consideration -- rather than "I want what edna and your parents had!" and "I want to be with my grandson" and "here, let me completely be a complete jerk to you while I get what I want" from people.

It's, like, I just want to freaking go hiking and to the beach and eat the food that I liek without comment and be with my son and enjoy him without comment on my parenting or my friend's parenting or my hair style or my son's hair style or my husband's hairstyle and why we live in such a crappy place and why would anyone live here.

Right?

I just need a holiday.


Right, I hear you! Is there any way to budget a second trip, without them, as kind of a reward for enduring this trip? Can you make their arrangments for a shorter time and just take the flak? It sounds like they will complain regardless. And I get it about the hypervigilance thing--that is exhausting and is going to flare up because when we are exhausted, we get more reactive, not less, and the history sounds really major here. And believe me, I am in NO way suggesting alone time with your son for them.

My husband's family does a major group thing and we went 5 years ago and I insisted we get a separate motel, away from the compound. I had good reasons and it was the only way we could handle it, based on my husband's history of abuse from the family, and their treatment of me and my children. I am still hearing from him, when he is really angry, that his family "thinks I hate them" because of the separate motel. And he didn't even want to go on the trip! One brother was paying for the trip 3 years later--the richer members of the group insist on spending the money of the less rich members, committing them to large sums of money. It's an absurd situation, which reminds me of your situation, but unfortunately, this trip sounds like a real no-win, and I wish you could plan a holiday for you and your little family, you need it.

[sweetana3]

It is sad, period. Hugs all around.

It is crappy that your husband feels the need to have the parents come to NZ. This is the basic issue. No one important to him will think less of him. I think if he somehow could just get some therapy from a 3rd person to let him see how damaging they are to his and his own families health, he might say no to their coming. He has heard it from you and knows exactly what your postion is. You are properly letting him make the decision. Forcing a vacation on the whole group is not, as you have said, letting the family have a vacation.

A potential solution is to give them one week out of the three with the private times you need during that week. Since your husband is doing the itinerary, that is the one to present. If they dont like it, they can lump it or come up with other things to do in their free time without you all. You and family can use the other two weeks to destress from the year. Have the tour and cruise options available. If they dont want that, well it is their issue. I think he is finding this out and it is a good lesson. Good decision to have him do the planning.

Or just suck it up for this one time and realize it will probably never happen again. You can keep telling yourself this while with them.

The whole thing is if they are not "nice" on Skype, what gives him any hope that they would be "nice" in person? Is there something, like money or validation, that he still hopes to get from them in the future? If so, I hope he gives up the dream and maybe the therapist can help him resolve that. His issues are his own. As my husband says, they have had 50+ years to develop these habits and they are not going to change for your son, your grandson or you. Their way of behaving gets them what they want or has in the past.

I suspect they are angry with him because he is not following their absolute directions in what to do with his life, who to marry, where to live, etc. Thankfully, you all moved to NZ or you would see them far more often.

[iris lily]

...Or just suck it up for this one time and realize it will probably never happen again. You can keep telling yourself this while with them.



That's what I'm thinking. I think the OP will have clarity after this trip and there will be no more.

A few years ago I put my foot down about attending more niece and nephew weddings. I stopped going. I like my inlaws and they are normal people who have a good all around relationship with me, but I don't feel the need to trek out of state for every wedding. Oh and, yeah, did I mention that the last two I attended were held on Saturday night and not a drop of alcohol was around? (ha ha ha I think that I talk about that non-stop). And they were out in the boondocks where one couldn't escape to take a walk to see something, it was surrounded by cement and cornfields. Never again. So DH happily attends his family events and I happily stay home, and all is well here with that plan.

[Zoebird]

MissC: For the record, I never have these dialogues with my MIL. It's always straight-forward. I dialogue my way to a position, and then I present that position. I know that reasoning with them never works, which is why I never do it *with them*. I also realize that complaining, etc, is her "tactic" and DH usually just gives in. He manages most of the boundaries for our family (since they are his parents), and I get as frustrated with him for not standing up for himself/us as I get with her for manipulating. For me, it's just frustrating to go through the cycle over and over.

And yes, I can learn to let it "roll off my back" and in a lot of areas, it does. But when I'm already set off, i'm more likely to get set off.

Rodeosweetheart: Not really. I mean, we are taking a family trip to Taupo next week (5th-9th) which should be awesome. We are going to go to snow and hot springs. DH is calling it our "snow monkey" trip! :D To do whatever we will be doing with my ILs (we are looking at 9 days on the road, 12 days in wellington), and lots of things have little costs (going to the zoo, for example). So, I have the budget for it set aside, and we will have about 4 days for ourselves from the last day of the business before Christmas. And, with this, I"ll likely be working from the 7th of January which is 8 days before they leave. So we'll likely travel from 29 Dec to 6 Jan.

sweetana: Yes, he has had therapy in the past and still works on those skills. he goes on-off depending upon how he feels, what he's getting out of it, etc. He's done a lot of work, and he's got a lot to be proud of in regards to that. Right now, we cannot afford counseling -- as we have looked into it. This is why I was looking for resources (book recommendations, etc) here, as well as from my aunt, and also from one of our office-mates (who is a psychologist as well and can provide some resources locally such as support groups similar to Al-anon).

The whole thing is if they are not "nice" on Skype, what gives him any hope that they would be "nice" in person? -- I have no idea. I keep mentioning this, but for whatever reason, he brushes it off as "it's not that bad" and "maybe they will change." But he'll also admit that they have not -- once in the last two years that we've been here had one skype where some nasty stuff didn't happen. I think he does want their approval/validation, but I cannot really say. We are not interested in their money.

As my husband says, they have had 50+ years to develop these habits and they are not going to change for your son, your grandson or you. -- I completely agree and have asserted this to DH. It's not even fair to expect them to change in my mind. I mean, this is the life that they have built for themselves, the way that -- at some level at least -- they 'want' to live, and why not 'live and let live?' If you want to have a relationship, recognize what it will be -- a surface relationship with no deep meaning (the kind of relationship that DH likes is those that are deep -- he has a few friends and he likes to have meaningful relationships with them). Because to go deeper, they would simply have to be different people -- and I don't really think it's fair to even ask them for that. Accept what is, and go with what you can in light of that.

I suspect they are angry with him because he is not following their absolute directions in what to do with his life, who to marry, where to live, etc. Thankfully, you all moved to NZ or you would see them far more often. -- Yes, this is our overriding feeling/sense about it. They also have absolute thinking. You are Right or Wrong. If you live like them, then you are Right (because they couldn't possibly be Wrong). If you are not like them, you are Wrong. We are WRong. We moved away from family. We "stole" their grandchild. We don't go to the right church (I'm even nervous about practicing nichiren when they are here, but DS loves the daily ritual of it, so I plan on continuing with it).

Iris lily: I'm really, really hoping that such is the case.

My family is already making arrangements to return, but they have said that they will come in April. Not only is it less expensive for them, I've been telling everyone since BEFORE we moved here that APRIL is the best time of year weather-wise too. I won't be able to take time off, BUT i can close down my schedule a bit (only teach classes, for example, not do the normal admin work) and over the school holidays, there is a Long weekend as well. I can travel for a weekend (4 days) at this time, and then we can hang out around wellington or they can travel more if they wish. My parents are totally cool with this, as is my Aunt who may be returning in 2/3 years.

DH said he would tell his parents the same. The reality is that we kept pushing for them to come this past april, but MIL said "I have to plant the church garden!" and was upset about "I don't want to say in Lancaster in winter." She wanted to travel to our summer -- and I can't blame her -- btu I did tell her that it's the rainiest time of year and that makes it pretty difficult to do a lot of things (ie, trails are often washed out, for example). So, we have to plan carefully. Also, with the cloud cover, you can't see the nice views. Seriously, everyone should just come in April!

Anyway, we have talked about telling everyone that the year after this (christmas 2013) we'll be doing a small fmaily holiday and doing some marketing. The prana festival is a great opportunity for our business AND our family. There's another festival just after Prana that is near wellington (agian, highly attended by wellingtonians) that we want to get to as well because it's --- again -- fun for our family AND good for our business. And, I'd like to just do the holiday "our way" for a bit.

Our plan to return to the US is about 5 years away. We think that when DS is 9, it would be a great time for him to really "see" the US. I plan on saving up about $20,000 for the trip, and hopefully the business will be in good shape AND i'll be able to teach on the trip to defray some costs. My parents are making arrangements to "join us" when we go to certain places. For example, my Dad really wants to see Yellowstone again, and so he thought that they could fly out when we are set to arrive at the location, and then we can do those things together. He thinks that 4-5 days would be a good trip for him -- as he doesn't really like to travel all that much. I told DH that we should encourage his parents to "join us" in a location that they are interested in -- such as Seattle, where MIL's cousin lives. They can have their own housing, etc, spend time with CIL (cousin in law?), and then see the sites with DS, DH and myself. Containment.

So far, I'm planning and saving for the following trips: DS aged 6 -- australia; DS aged 9 -- US; DS aged 12 -- southeast asia and India; DS 14 -- China/Japan/Korea; DS 17 -- Europe; DS 19 -- South America; DS 22 -- Africa/Middle East. Of course, for 17,19, and 22 DS is not required to attend. :) He may want to go off on his own, explore and backpack and be a young man on the road. I can't blame him if he does. But, if he wants to hang with us, that would be cool. DH and I really want to do the Inca trail, for example (life-long dream), and then after this age 22 of DS, we'll probably look at Bhutan, Nepal, and the different borderlands along the silk road, and then look at places like mongolia and the like.

Seriously, we like to travel.

But yeah. That's where my plans are.