The Big Picture: FI3

[fidgiegirl]

I am starting to feel that I've lost sight of the reasons I first latched on to YMOYL in 2004, and have continued to fret about the small elements of seeking FI while having lost sight of the big picture. And it's starting to feel a little pointless.

I want to be able to work part-time or leave paid employment. I want to be FI3.

DH and I took a step back away from this goal when we switched houses. That's ok, and that's done. We enjoy our new home very much. We may have (intentionally) stepped back in this move, but now we can start walking forward again.

1) Need to recommit to tracking. As you know, this has been a challenge.
2) Need to probe DH's commitment to this vision. He will not be happy forever in his job, he has said as much. But he doesn't really TRULY believe anyone can become FI. And him reading YMOYL? Not gonna happen.

I have taken the tack that "I'm not going to work in the summer if he's not going to work in the summer." (We're both teachers). But I think now that this is wrong. If it's a goal I want to accomplish, not taking the steps to accomplish it is just holding myself back, and wrongly putting on him that he is holding me back. I am thinking of taking on some additional evening work toward the goal. If I get the right gig, there can be some good hourly wage opportunities out there, or I can create my own. I have been focusing on networking this spring, esp. through Twitter (huge for educators) and think I may be able to leverage some of those next year.

This is kind of a brain dump, so I apologize. While I continue to enjoy the fellowship of my fellow SLF members, the boards haven't been feeling as engaging to me lately, and I think this is part of it. I can make personal sacrifices until the cows come home toward a goal, but if I've lost sight of my goal, well, then, what's the point, really?

How about you? Are you still committed to your personal Big Picture? What is it? How will you get there? How do you work with a partner to get there? This is one of the aspects of marriage that I am still learning, and might always be learning.

Let's talk Big here.

[fidgiegirl]

I suddenly have so much energy just from having posted this.

[Kestra]

Yes, you definitely have to just do what is right for you. There's nothing wrong with one partner retiring earlier than the other, or one working part time while the other does full time. I'm sure it must be difficult to figure out if you hold money jointly. As an exaggeration, if you worked 50 hrs a week year round and he worked 9 months of the year, and then you both retired when you were jointly FI, I'd find that quite annoying. That's one of the reasons DH and I keep separate money. I do networth calculations for us individually and jointly. We both know that we can work as much or as little as we want, as long as we keep up with our fair portion of the bills. We're both very interested in FI, which helps, but it's still an ongoing debate whether we should work as much as we can handle now and retire earlier, or work more part time, but for longer. We're not always going to want the same thing all the time.

What goes through my head a lot of the time, is how much to work. We both are in situations where we can almost literally work as much or as little as we want - absolutely no firm commitment to our employers. While it sounds wonderful in theory, in practice it makes determining a proper work-life balance difficult.

[herbgeek]

I'm not sure what my goal is exactly anymore either. It /was/ to have enough to be able to walk away from an unsatisfying job. And I was able to do that. But I don't have enough to /retire/. And having been unemployed for 2+ years, I'm not sure I want the traditional "retirement". Not working at all makes me feel useless. Maybe it would be a bit different if it were my choice to not be working, but I don't think so.

My goal would be to work about 20 hours a week, or more per week if there was a long stretch for vacations in there. I actually like working, and feeling productive, its just in my field its all or nothing. Either 50+ high stress hours or unemployment. Even for moms, its very very difficult to get part time, and that's usually a time limited (6 months) thing. And I don't have the excuse of kids. All of my working friends are hugely stressed, with little attention span, always on call, very distracted, have to take their phone out while we are out to dinner to answer work calls. I don't want that life. And then people have to do all these studies to find out why there aren't more women in high tech fields.

[DarkStar]

All of my working friends are hugely stressed, with little attention span, always on call, very distracted, have to take their phone out while we are out to dinner to answer work calls. I don't want that life. And then people have to do all these studies to find out why there aren't more women in high tech fields.

+1. That's why I left the field. Nothing like getting the call in the middle of the night to come in for an emergency, and having them get an attitude because you brought your child in because you are a single parent, won't leave him home alone, and he's too old for daycare. Plus the fun of actually doing the work is negated by the stress of the working conditions.

The part of my new field I've chosen actually lets you work to whatever age you like if you find the right employer. That's why I've chosen it. I'll probably never entirely retire, as long as I have interesting work to do. That's kind of my answer for FI3.

[bke]

I feel for you Fidgiegirl. For the longest time my dh told me he was gonna work until he was sixty and then basically quit and wait to die. If he didn't have enough money-oh well. He had absolutely no dreams for the future beyond working himself basically to death.

You may know this already but about 2 years ago I turned in my notice to him. I told him that October 14, 2020 was going to be my last day of work whether he quit working or not. That day happens to be my 50th birthday. I had crunched the numbers and come up with a pretty realistic ball-park figure that showed him we would have no financial reason to continue working after that. I put the information on paper so he could see it for himself. I told him he could do whatever he wanted but I'd be d*mned if my life amounted to nothing more than a paycheck.

At the time he was so shocked that I had spoken to him that way that he didn't do much more than say ok and walk away from the situation. It wasn't a fight but I very firmly put my foot down about something that mattered to me.

A few weeks later he asked to see my figures... A few weeks after that he admitted that he never, ever thought he could achieve FI3-wouldn't even allow himself to dream it.

Now he's cooking things from scratch like pizza when we want one to save $20 and even clips coupons with me because he knows how much sucess I have with them. Most importantly he belives that we can be financially independent and is working towards that goal with me and dreaming of an entirely different future for the both of us.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you be as confrontational as I was, but it might get him to join you on this path in life if you found a way to show him that its an obtainable goal TOGETHER. Frankly it would take a lot to get me to give up 3 months of summer time freedom but maybe you can convince him that you can have that kind of bliss year round for a bit of sacrifice now.

[iris lily]

Today I calculated how much time some of the money in our bank account has bought me.ey.

My theoretical Society Security pension at age 62 is: $19,000 annually and at "full" retirement just a few years later at 66 it is $25,000. But it is so NOT worth it to me to hang on that extra 4 years. Assuming that I live 20 years beyond retirement I'll have lost $120,000 in SS benefits. That's fine with me because I've got $120,000 socked away for that purpose. I've got a few piles of $120,000 like that, for exactly that purpose.

But for younger people I think that the idea of part time retirement is golden and is a great incentive. Several talk about that here. Work some, but not full time. The problem is that in this down economy those part time jobs are hard to get.

[fidgiegirl]

I think that's why the Mr. Money Mustache blog is so appealing to me. I don't envision having a problem working part-time or on the side, it's the HAVING to work. I will absolutely, definitely work in some way. But always for money, or always full-time, not so sure? I was thinking about it before I even came back and read the responses and I know myself - I wouldn't be happy completely without anything to do. But if we had the freedom to do what we wanted . . . ahhhhh . . . plus in my area of teaching I can easily get a part-time teaching job. DH, not so much. Certain license areas lend themselves to it more than others. Or, if we were closer to FI, it wouldn't matter if we wanted to teach or try something else. The mortgage wouldn't be depending on it . . .

We make a lot of money when you put it all together. I think if we focused - together - on reducing expenses, we could make it happen. I shouldn't make my DH sound like some wild spendthrift. In many ways he's more frugal than I am. But it's not for any particular reason, you know, other than just not liking to part with his money or the thrill of the bargain. And we keep spending $100 here or $500 there on the house, and that's gonna slow our progress CONSIDERABLY.

So tracking, oh unglamourous tracking, here I come again . . .

Who else? Who still has that big goal hanging out there, or maybe you've reached it?

[fidgiegirl]

Thank you, all, BTW, for your wonderful responses. So glad to have this community to put these ideas to . . . if I floated the idea of paying off the mortgage in real life, I'd get "can't be done" from 99% of the people I know, or "why would you want to do that?" You guys get it.

[bke]

Is it possible that tracking is unnecessary? We don't track at all-the closest I come is reporting my daily frugals on the board. I figure we know what we spend money on and where we don't. Its much more fun to look at what is left at the end of the week/month than to dwell on what we've spent.

This is kind of a silly example but can it be as simple as setting a goal to see how much extra you can save to put towards the mortgage or some sort of investment? Maybe set aside $50 or $100 and see if you can keep it to put towards a goal. Tell yourself you can spend it if it really seems important to do so. It's much more positive than scolding yourself for spending. Afterall, you probably have a pretty good idea of where and why you spend your money.

[flowerseverywhere]

everyone is different. Every marraige is different.

Maybe if you set one goal, say paying off the house you could get him on board. I hope you are also putting the max in your retirement accounts, whether they are IRA, 403b's or 401k's, putting something aside every year is what made the biggest difference in our long term plan.

Here is the thing. Life happens. people fall down or have another unforseen accident and have to stay out of work, get in car wrecks, get sick, get pregnant, have to deal with aging parents etc. All over the country you hear about wildfires or tornadoes striking. You cannot predict the future. All you can do is take care of yourself to the best of your ability.

I don't know what is best for you, but for us paying off the mortgage and having no debt is the best thing we ever did. We can both work part time, not touch savings and still pay all our bills. My DH never read YMOYL and thought I was nuts when I said we were paying off the house. I was a crazy person, every cent went towards it and the day it was paid off we left the bank and DH just broke down into tears knowing that millstone around his neck was gone. About halfway into it he got on board when he realized how much money we were saving in interest. No matter what, we know we can make enough money to stay in our house, eat good food, and not freeze in the winter. Nothing can replace that.

I am a big fan of tracking. I can tell you how much we made and spent in 1976 although detailed tracking started much later. But the point is you have to do what works for you and your family. Hang in there, don't end up old and poor because you followed conventional wisdom instead of knowing in your heart what you need to do.

[fidgiegirl]

bke, I will think about that. It's a good idea, and I have found tracking to be challenging since I got married. But when I was single - I was a MACHINE! :) I think some degree of tracking is good . . . last month our AmEx bill, which we pay in full each month, was about $700 more than I had expected!!!! Talk about a surprise!!!! Maybe we even keep some simple lists on the fridge if the computer is what's complicating it.

[Stella]

Great thread Kelli! I have every confidence that you could become FI if you want to and I think it's a great goal. You are still pretty young (Ha! I suppose I have to think that because we're, what, like 4 days apart in age? :) ) but really, time is on your side. You are very financially responsible. I bet it wouldn't take you long to power through that mortage if you put your mind to it.

We are still very committed to our big vision, but I think we've had moments of being more committed than others. I'm getting back into my savings groove too. Our plan has ended up taking some interesting twists and turns and I think we need to revisit it.

I am already home full-time and plan to stay that way unless I have some compelling reason to work full-time. I cycle in and out of part-time employment as I have an interest. I don't know that I'll be doing that for a while now, though. Zach is working year-round for a few years at least and with homeschool it would be a lot. We'd like to have Zach have the freedom not to work or at least to work when he wants to. He's in a field where that is very possible.

Due to our multigenerational living arrangement we haven't had a mortgage payment in two years. While Zach was in school, it just helped us make ends meet, but now there will be more play in the budget. We share living expenses, so that helps too. Although we have separate finances from Dad, in some ways we have a double income family (Zach and Dad) and the financial benefits of having someone stay at home. Now it's just a matter of figuring out how we want to manage this. For now Zach is happy working full-time for someone else. He's not yet 30 years old and he loves what he does. Eventually he thinks he'd like to work for himself and then...who knows.

One thing I think can be hard as far as planning when you are younger is knowing that there are so many variables between you and where you might want to be even 10 years from now. I think we're just going to squirrel it away and figure out a more solid plan later on.

[fidgiegirl]

I'm so pumped, you guys! DH IS, to be fair, on board with paying off the house(s). We have our plan of the order it needs to (ideally) go in. It's just not going fast enough for me. Just like Dave Ramsey talks about with the personal debt, I feel we need a jump start, something to dynamite the process. It'll be a snowball. Actually, now that I think about it, DH has a snowball idea in mind. I keep forgetting about it. If we could really hit it hard initially and then get that snowball rolling, we'd be well on our way.

flowers, your story was so inspiring . . . "millstone" - that's the perfect word for it. We did it before with my debt (about $30), but of course the two mortgages are a lot more than that.

We are going to
1) Build our EF back up to about 6 months of income, with 2 aging cars and the 2 houses we will feel a lot better with that in place
2) Let our rental business account build up to a certain point (it's building nicely, we won't owe taxes or insurance for several months and are still paying the mortgage out of our personal funds) and then move the mortgage payment for that place over so it's coming out of those funds. The money we had been putting towards this out of our personal funds then goes to the HELOC.
3) Pay off our HELOC (2nd mortgage)
3) Snowball to pay off the rental
4) Snowball pay off our residence, also using some of the rental funds also to help pay it off

It will be a long road. It's a lot of money. But then when I stop to think of it, we will earn in about 2 years what we owe, plus we have the rental income offsetting some of it. Obviously we have to live, but that means we should be able to do it in not-that-long. All very vague still. But if we can focus in! How awesome! Plus, then, ideally, when all is said and done we'd still have the rental income coming in. All a perfect situation, but I am really pumped about our plan now. It feels do-able! We just need to have a laser focus on the first few steps!

P.S. Stella, I believe you are correct - 4 days apart :)

[ApatheticNoMore]

The thing about working part-time is most part time work is working retail. Now there is nothing wrong in the world with working retail, I respect and in some ways envy people who do, but for me it's such a fall not only in hours worked (which I would welcome) but in hourly rate when I'm earning several multiples per hour of what I would earn per hour say working at the Starbucks (and hey Starbucks is one of the *GOOD* part-time jobs - it has healthcare!! Many part-time jobs don't even have healthcare so having enough savings to permanently pay for healthcare without employer rates is another thing you have to figure in). Working part-time and staying in the field one works in (yes it's technical) seems well not impossible, but odds are going to be heavily stacked against you. I mean you can push to work part-time but the endless pressure in professional work is more hours, more hours, more hours, and it's a heavy pressure (do this or never get a raise again in your life, do this or don't get any professional respect, do this or be the first to go etc.). So a professional job and working part-time - it just seem like you have to choose one or the other, can't have both. Don't ask me how I know ....

I don't earn quite a lot of income. A earn a very middle class income. And in fact I dont' see that many people earning the 6 figures (or even close) and so on anymore without at least being management (and I don't even want to manage!). I begin to think much is out of reach of the middle class. But I do enjoy reading about those who plans for getting ahead in the world are radical, like Zoebird who left the country, or junkman who spends much of his time researching bonds it seems :). I think something radical like that is what it takes, not just working and saving on a very ordinary income, that seems so dead-end.

I hoped to get out of working jobs I hated as well. That was my original hope too. But I think that's a lot more difficult than I ever imagined. Things like healthcare costs and so on even keep people working years after they otherwise would have quit and those only increase as you get older, who knows what they will be like by the time we are older.

[fidgiegirl]

ANM, hugs . . . I hope at some point you can reach your vision, too. It IS hard - I'm learning that as the years go on.

[iris lily]

Is it possible that tracking is unnecessary? We don't track at all-the closest I come is reporting my daily frugals on the board. I figure we know what we spend money on and where we don't. Its much more fun to look at what is left at the end of the week/month than to dwell on what we've spent.

This is gold. Absolutely!

I never tracked, I don't have a budget, I just (back in the days of heavy belt tightening) didn't spend money on crap I didn't need or really really want.

[Stella]

I think the ability to work part-time depends a lot on the field you are in. In some lines of work part-time employment doesn't really exist. In others it's more common. I have a few friends who are nurses, for example, who work part-time. My husband is in a trade. His father, who is a carpenter, works for himself about 2 days a week. That's probably the route we'd take. The owner of the company Zach works for takes a couple of months off every year and let's his employees keep working. Something like that could work too.

I actually worked at Starbucks for several years. I really liked that job. The pay isn't great, about $10 an hour if you include tips, but the benefits are good. At least they were 7 years ago.

[artist]

How about you? Are you still committed to your personal Big Picture? What is it? How will you get there? How do you work with a partner to get there? This is one of the aspects of marriage that I am still learning, and might always be learning.

Let's talk Big here.

To be honest I'm not sure what our big picture is anymore. I know that dh and I want to downsize, but that in evaluating our situation, right now isn't the right time for us to do so. Not until we are pet free and have only ourselves to worry about. Being pet free opens more doors and options. We had discussed what is important to us in terms of location. Must be convient to downtown to allow for biking for errands, small market runs, library etc... Must be close to dh's work for ecological reasons (right now it's a 15-20 min drive which is perfect), must be close to recreational areas for biking etc... Not sure what type of living situation would be best for us for the long haul.

Working toward that goal from a financial standpoint? We aren't doing that actively at the moment. It's been a rough couple of years for us with my being laid off from Borders books (company went out of business) , quitting a toxic daycare job I had managed to live through for over 5 years and then having the last two job offers fall through (Full time nanny job for triplets... she lost the triplets at 20 weeks), (house cleaning job.... decided to do it herself after we went in and did a full clean to get it up to par). I'm at a point where I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing job wise and that's tough. I won't work retail for moral reasons.

As for working with a partner. The key is to discuss your dreams and then see where you dreams match up with one another. Then create a game plan to get to those dreams. ie.. One thing for me was to be reliant only on one vehicle and to get most places by bike during good weather. Dh liked the idea but it ment that both of us had to get into better shape physically. To that end we both started biking again. It will take awhile for us to get back in shape but our health was a major componant to being less reliant upon a vehicle in the long term. I need to loose 80 lbs to be considered healthy. I'll still be 30 lbs over what my doctor says is an ideal weight range for someone my height, but I'm ok with that. I'm setting a reasonable goal that I feel I can achieve. Dh wants to not have to worry about tending to a yard on a regular basis. To that end we are considering things like apartments, trailer parks with little yard space and wooded lots that don't require maintaince beyond removing occassional tree limbs and raking in the fall.

[herbgeek]

I always assumed you were older Fidgiegirl, because you sound so responsible about finances and tradeoffs, with a maturity that usually seems to come later in life. :)

My hubby was not immediately on board when I determined that I wanted to pay off the mortgage on our first house (condo). I think he thought it wasn't really possible, and having monthly payments was just something adults did. I started tracking for my own reasons, and making charts with the mortgage balance and showing it to him, along with projections of when we might be done. It apparently was contagious, and he became enthusiastic. He was never a spender, mostly because he HATES to shop, so it wasn't that his habits need to change. It was that his enthusiasm became a big support for me, enabling ME to reign in my consumerist tendencies. :laff: Once we got focused (about 2-3 years into the purchase) we paid it off about 5 years after that, accumulated a down payment for our current house, and paid THAT mortgage off in 5 years. Mostly because we bought way less house than we could "afford". But how much room do 2 people with no kids really need anyhow?

I tell ya, there's a whole lot of relief in having a paid for house, and paid for cars, with the economy and our job situations being what they've been the last few years. Nothing I could have bought could have given me THAT peace of mind.

[fidgiegirl]

artist - it must feel good to be working toward your fitness goals now even if the move isn't in the imminent future. You have been posting about biking, right?

herbgeek - that's kind of like me and DH! He's not a big spender on day-to-day items. I'll spend more readily than he will. But I am afraid that without our vision we'll spend the money that could go to the mortgage on trips (we both value trips a lot, but think of all the trips we can take when all the mortgage money is staying in our own pockets . . . I know we'll take some throughout the course of this goal, but we don't have to get on a plane every year to have lots of memorable and enjoyable trips) or a garage, etc.

Still excited this morning! Could barely sleep last night!

[fidgiegirl]

So interestingly - the goal seems to have morphed in my mind since this thread started - from FI3 to paying off the mortgages. I guess that doing so is one step towards FI, and that it's easier to focus on that than the whole kit and kaboodle.

[flowerseverywhere]

Ah yes, someone mentioned health insurance. We were lucky that at 55 Dh was able to retire and we can be in his employers health plan. We pay for it ourselves but being in a group plan is half as much as if we had to go on the open market.

but as far as part time goes, for two teachers there is subbing and tutoring. I am not a teacher but a nurse and sub in two school districts as a nurse and special ed aide (I like that best) , I could work every day if I wanted to. Of course nursing is the ideal profession to work part time.
When I work I meet lots of people who do all kinds of things. The bus drivers are the most creative. They drive trams at the state fair, tractors at the local farms for hayrides, drive delivery on weekends for dairies- the list goes on.

but getting back to the original post, if you are young healthy and employed you have the world on a string so take advantage. I am cleaning out my house to downsize and I'll tell you, we are astounded at what we have spent our money and we are not big spenders. It kind of creeps in. Thank goodness we don't eat out or we would never be in our position. The economy has made it difficult for so many people to get by, take advantage of your position to better yourself. You may always have to work but with no debt your options are so much more than with debt. You never know when a job can dissapear or become unbearable so be prepared.

[Gregg]

Sometimes I just HAVE to clear the metaphorical desk. If I imagine my life as my desk during a busy time I can see the piles that start to develop. The important stuff still gets filed appropriately, but then there is all this other stuff that MIGHT be important, but I'm not exactly sure what to do with it. That's the kind of crap that I have to shove right into the trash can with one broad sweeping motion across the desk. Goals change. Situations change. Desires change. Change is good. It beats the hell out of the alternative. Forget FI3 or any other concept for a minute. Just breath and concentrate on what is important to you at exactly this point in your life. The farther back you step the more you will be able to see, THEN you can refocus and begin with new goals. Of course you've already jumped beyond all this, but I do think its important to know that sometimes its ok to shake things up when you feel bogged down. Well done Kelli.

[jennipurrr]

So interestingly - the goal seems to have morphed in my mind since this thread started - from FI3 to paying off the mortgages.

That is kind of the point DH and I got to. FI3 seems this big nebulous thing and paying off the mortgage seemed a lot more "real" to us, but also in the steps towards FI. I feel like I need a jumpstart too maybe and then on the other hand I think maybe I don't...I'm in a weird place. I have so much going on in my life (good stuff though) that the tracking and being vigilant has just fallen by the wayside. I started the blog to try to keep me accountable to the outside world (if even that's just myself, publicly) but I haven't updated it in some time or done my tracking for May. The problem is (and its one of those whiney, not real problems) is we are doing pretty well...making most of our savings goals. But, at the same time I feel like I could be doing more, saving more, living much more frugally.

Also, DH and I are (for the most part) enjoying our careers right now. We both have the possibility of exciting things in the not so distant future...so I'm kind of wondering if the super hard core savings thing is worth it, just to shave a few years off jobs that we don't hate?

So, we're working semi-hard to pay off the mortgage quickly and then we will see what happens after that. I know our next step will be to save for another car. Although, this week I am all sidetracked by the possibility of a house that may be coming up for sale soon that would allow us to go down to one car and walk to work and the grocery store. Of course that throws the mortgage plan into turmoil and also its a big fixer upper...which is even more complexity in our lives.

[pinkytoe]

Just breath and concentrate on what is important to you at exactly this point in your life.
It's funny but I have been cleaning out stuff and coming across all sorts of things that remind me of the twists and turns of being married for over 30 years. Very, very little of it holds much meaning anymore other than as a reminder of our shared journey. The statement above is coincidentally what occurred to me over the weekend as I was going through all this stuff. I even mentioned to dh that we really need to think more about having fun and lightening up as we get older. Life happens so quickly in retrospect. Looking back, it has always been me that dangles the carrot to try a different way of living. I became interested in voluntary simplicity many years ago and to this day, dh is still not fully on board. He appreciates the concept but is unwilling to sit down with me and crunch numbers so it is up to me to figure it out as a couple. We have some fuzzy, shared ideas of retiring but every since being laid off, dh is afraid to even contemplate not being employed so works much too hard. It is all on my list of things to do but for now, everything is status quo.

[bke]

After reading through all this tonight I realized that I do keep track of my debts-just not the spending. I have a ledger that I keep in a three ring binder. Every month I figure the amount of interest owed, subtract it from the payment and figure out how much we've paid on the principal of the loan. I can look at it any time I want and have some very positive information in front of me. Its a real rush to see how much we've managed to reduce our debt and/or monthly interest payment.

I couldn't tell you how much we've spent on food or entertainment for the year but I do know to the penny how sucessful we've been in debt reduction. Its a POSITIVE thing-never a situation for self criticism. Plus, its an easy way to keep dh focused on the big picture.

You know, in my opinion, paying off the mortgage for anyone is a huge step towards FI3 and maybe all you need to focus on at this moment.

I'm really enjoying this conversation-everyone has so much positive advice to share!

[fidgiegirl]

I'm really enjoying this conversation-everyone has so much positive advice to share!

+1!

I kind of like this approach. As I've posted in previous threads, when I was working so hard to pay my student loans, I had a chart.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7109/7001802457_0a66937abe.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7733846@N05/7001802457/)
debt chart (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7733846@N05/7001802457/) by fidgiegirl (http://www.flickr.com/people/7733846@N05/), on Flickr

It was about 18 inches tall. But I really liked the physical action of coloring in the reduction in debt. There are a few reasons why the same chart won't work here, though: 1) it would be about 10 feet tall, and 2 because the balances on the loans are so much bigger, it's not going to feel like a lot of progress right away. I don't want it to be a discouragement. But if it lives on the computer, it won't be a visible, daily reminder of what we're working toward. So still sussing that one out.

It WOULD help if I set up online banking for the different accounts, like being able to view the balances online. We can't do that right now and we are never really sure where we're at with the balances until the quarterly statement arrives in the mail.

And one of them won't allow a bunch of little online payments for free - that much I did figure out. I used to send in $20 or $15 or $50 at a time to my student loans. I knew if I held onto it I would burn it, so I would send it in right away. Not gonna work on the mortgages. Hmmmm. Maybe we save it in a dedicated account until it hits, say, $1000 and then send in a chunk?

Also, what about applying to principal? Is it still true that you have to specify that?

[bke]

I've always made a point of paying extra when my normal payment is due. I specify on the check that xx amount is the payment and xxx amount goes towards the pricipal. I do it this way instead of mid-month extras because it makes it easier for me to figure the interest.

Definitely check with your bank to see how they handle such transactions. At one time we had a bank that tried to put all the extra money we were paying towards extra payments and not putting it towards the principal!

The bank I'm using now is great about applying the extra towards the principal and will even give me an up-to-date balance at my request.

I love your chart by the way! I have talked myself out of hanging a cork board above my desk numerous times because I know it would end up being a chaotic paper mess to anyone else who looked at it. I'd like to post charts, financial quotes that I find and math equations that would help me plan for the future. I love figures and statistics that help me along the path to FI but my bits of paper drive dh bonkers and my desk is in our bedroom. For now, I'll have to stick with my little ledger and my friends here at SLN.

[Fawn]

How about you? Are you still committed to your personal Big Picture? What is it? How will you get there? How do you work with a partner to get there? This is one of the aspects of marriage that I am still learning, and might always be learning.

Let's talk Big here.

For me, the going to part-time work (24-34 hours/week) is the Big Picture for the next 8 years. This allows me a managable work/life balance while providing for my self and the 3 kiddos. In 8 years, my mortgage is paid off, I will be elgible to get SS & pension and all the kids will be through college. At that time I will decide if I want to continue working or retire.

I feel that I have reached the sweet spot.

[Selah]

Hmm. The Big Picture? Honestly, I've lost sight of it as well. I spent so many years getting out of debt that when we finally did, it was kind of like the wind had gone out of our sails. Now we're in a strange place of being in a new country, living off savings and initial government support given to every new immigrant, and trying to figure out what to do with the rest of our professional lives. I have been unemployed for going on two years now (not getting unemployment...I had to resign when we had to move to Florida to help my MIL). Now I'm trying to learn Hebrew so I can even have a chance at getting an interview, but I'm frequently told by Israelis that at least for now, my Hebrew isn't good enough for the workplace.

DH doesn't believe it is possible to achieve FI unless you own your home outright and can just pay for living expenses by Social Security payments. Both of our areas of retirement (i.e. the sheltered, you-can't-touch-this!) savings were wiped out from divorces and business failures. What little I managed to put away in a Roth IRS has dropped so much in value that it is unlikely to compound into anything significant, no matter how long I keep it stuck away. Now that we live in Israel, I'm not allowed to contribute to a Roth IRA anyway, so my brokerage froze my account.

Thank you for making me think. DH has been wiped out so many times in business (real estate brokerage died when Reagan changed the tax laws, travel website died with 9-11, his charter airline business died with American Airlines paid travel agents more of a vig to divert traffic away from him, etc., etc.) that he's really jaded and doesn't trust anyone but himself in business. While he is very good about paying bills, taxes, and child support, and keeping a close eye on our spending, he seems to freeze when it comes to me wanting to set some audacious, FI-type goals. Since I am not generating any money myself, it's become somewhat of a moot point until I can do so once again.

[shadowmoss]

My next step towards the Big Picture is paying off the next credit card - 3-4 more months. Then the Jeep - 2 months after that. I have my house in Nashville with a realtor who is in the process of evicting my second tenant who decided he didn't need to pay rent, and then she will sell it. I have confidence in her. The end of this year.

The block is that I am so tired of living in Honduras I am ready to come home, or go to another place outside the US. If I stick it out here, debt gets paid off, but there is a lot to be said for being happy. Even for this short of a time span. I put out 5 applications this morning. I think almost worst case I will be totally out of debt by 2 years. Then starts the building up of passive income. NOT through real estate!

I started reading the MrMoneyMoustache.com site from references here. I started at the beginning, and I'm up to last March so far. The comments are as informational/inspirational as his posts. If you need a fire lit under your tush, go there and read. It stopped me from going on a $500 spree over Memorial Day weekend, and again from buying $500 worth of clothes on-line that I was labeling 'sanity money' because I was so down about not being able to get out and do what I enjoy while down here.

[bunnys]

What's FI3?

[fidgiegirl]

Apologies, bunnys:

Financial Intelligence, Financial Integrity, Financial Independence.

I guess you can have some of them without having arrived at Financial Independence.

It's a term from Your Money or Your Life. I don't remember if the term is actually used the book, or if it was created from the concepts in the book. My copy is out on loan right now. Anyone know?

Selah, shadowmoss . . . both such interesting posts. shadowmoss, it sounds like in past posts you've talked about receiving a pretty lucrative salary in Honduras - does that opportunity exist in other locales? Is it worth it to tough it out? Selah, is your ultimate goal to enter the workplace in Israel? Don't let people discourage you with your language skills. When we learn a language as an adult, we never sound like native speakers (as I'm sure you know) but sometimes native speakers don't view ANYONE who speaks their language as a second language, not even if they have near-native proficiency with an accent, as good enough for anything :) That said I know you are still a beginner at Hebrew.

Talk about a diverse thread! Love it!

[Selah]

Thanks, Fidgiegirl! Yes, DH and I have been studying Hebrew for five months now, and while we have a basic conceptual framework of the language's structure, we are far from being conversant in any meaningful way. That said, we have "functional" Hebrew in that we can manage to exchange pleasantries and basic information, make appointments, ask for directions and information, get help in a grocery store, and so on. Many immigrants never get beyond this stage and give up trying to learn anything more, but we are determined not to quit.

As for me entering the Israeli workplace, I just really don't know. I have some consulting work that I do for American clients still, which provides a bit of fun money but nothing more. I will probably try to get part-time work teaching English to adults and doing some private tutoring, and you don't need too much Hebrew to get that kind of work. But I also have a few other small dreams, like starting a pet-sitting business and learning to create stained glass pieces with Jewish and/or Israeli motifs. Those are long-term plans.

I also serve as the (unpaid) Cantorial Soloist for the synagogue DH and I have started since we arrived, which may lead to other singing gigs in the future. And then there's the novel I have yet to write, the blog I have yet to monetize, etc., etc. In other words, there's a huge jumble of opportunities, skills, dreams and ideas, and none of it makes much sense or has any true focus. My goal is to continue studying Hebrew and to figure out what to focus on professionally. That's the goal I entered the country with six months ago, and I STILL haven't figured it out! :( Time to get "What Color is Your Parachute?" on my Nook!

[fidgiegirl]

Selah, so interesting about the singing. I didn't know you had started a synagogue! I imagine lots of synagogues already exist in Israel. Why did you end up starting your own?

Here is a link to Mr. Money Mustache's post today (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/MrMoneyMustache/~3/67HpWAMSvF4/) that quite nicely sums up the concept of why this is so important to me - and I LIKE my job right now, bordering on LOVE my job right now.

Miss Minimalist also posted this (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/missminimalist/~3/UptZs8AtUto/), though, and it also spoke to me. In our best efforts to pursue this goal, as I think some of you have been trying to get at, we may or may not reach it. We're going to try hard, remain optimistic, etc. But life happens. Have to remember that . . .

[dmc]

I have not read the whole thread, but I did make it to FI3. My wife and I always lived below our means, we always lived fine and would save a portion of any raise we had during the years. I am always amused by visiting the guys from work and they wonder how we did it, I'm sure they all made as much or more than I did.

When I turned 40 I started keeping track of my net worth, I was planning on having enough to not need to work when I hit 55. Then I could do what I wanted. I tracked monthly and looked at every purchase as a asset or liability. Paying extra on the mortgage or investing in something helped the net worth. Some spending of coarse was needed but did not contribute to the net worth. We paid for our two kids college, it did not help my net worth, but it got them out of the house and on their own. When I got to be about 46 we started tracking our spending along with our net worth. That allowed us to determine how much we really needed, and was FI3 when I hit about 47 and my wife 43. I went ahead and worked till I was 49 and quit in 2007, back when the stock market was hitting new highs. Now I admit that I was a little concerned in 2009 when stocks were down, but we just didn't make any big purchases that year and were fine. Our net worth is higher now than in 2007 so things are going good. Most of our investments have done well. Our 401ks and IRA have rebounded and hopefully will be there if we need them. I'm 55 now and our biggest expense is the airplane and golf club, which we enjoy but don't have to have. We also have to pay for our health insurance, around $15,000 a year, but its also in our budget.

I really think that the biggest thing that helped me was the tracking. It helped seeing that if we put a extra $1,000 toward the mortgage payment how that increased our net worth, where a new couch did not. We did not deprive ourselves, we just paid more attention to what we did with our money with a goal in mind.

[bke]

I really think that the biggest thing that helped me was the tracking. It helped seeing that if we put a extra $1,000 toward the mortgage payment how that increased our net worth, where a new couch did not. We did not deprive ourselves, we just paid more attention to what we did with our money with a goal in mind.

This entire post was very inspiring to me. I'm on about the same path as you are. Our only child graduates from high school when I'm 46 and we hope to be FI3 within a year of two of that.

Your statement about paying extra off on the mortgage vs buying a new couch summarizes our lifestyle at the moment. We don't deny ourselves anything we need but we do work darn hard at having our priorities in order and being debt free is on top of the list.

NO criticism is this statement intended dmc but: I hope the rest of you realize that you don't have to make the kind of money that allows you to buy an airplaine to reach a very comfortable level of financial freedom. We all can get there on our various levels of income so stay positive and don't get overwhelmed! Eleven years ago dh and I made $18,000 for the year, no state assistance and we still managed to pay extra on our mortgage.

Thanks again dmc, stories like yours reinforce that fact that I can reach my dream of FI3!

[Gregg]

Our only child graduates from high school when I'm 46 and we hope to be FI3 within a year of two of that.

Your post made me smile bke. We were fully on track to become empty nesters at 45. Then oops, DD#2. 45 became 53 overnight. Life is a moving target!

[bke]

I hear ya, Gregg! My almost 40 yr old brother has a 9 year old and a 3 month old baby....

[dmc]

Just to clarify, the airplane and country club came after FI3. I now have the time to golf enough to make the membership worth it. The airplane is just something I wanted. I am still keeping track of things and it's still a asset that could be sold if need be.

[Stella]

I went and read the Mr Money Moustache site someone mentioned. I think that is what we are aiming for in our "retirement" plans. We already spent the last 5 years with Zach home 6-7 months a year, so that's the kind of income we are used to living on and the kind of family time we are used to having together.

We spend less per year than MMM even with the extra 4 kids. If we just keep going this way, it should be pretty easy to sock away money and pay off my only debt, my last student loan. We actually managed to get Zach through school student loan free, which I'm pretty happy about since he did it as an adult supporting a relatively large family. I don't really see Zach fully retiring too early. He likes what he does a lot. He's kind of a nerd about it. We do want a lot of freedom, though. It's very feasible that by the time he is 40 we could be FI3. That's not too bad considering neither of us worked full-time all year round for most of our twenties.

[fidgiegirl]

That's really exciting, Stella. The benefit of Zach being a credentialed tradesperson now is the flexibility he can have later working for himself, as needed, - kind of like MMM!

[lhamo]

For me the biggest motivation to reach FI3 was when I was very unhappy in my previous job. Nothing like sitting in the middle of major dysfunction for several years to make one enthusiastic about devising an escape plan! But since I have moved to a saner, healthier place my desire to hit that goal quickly has diminished a bit. Add to that higher expenses in Beijing, including a substantial mortgage that, due to local rules, we can only pay off in large lump sums, plus wanting to save enough so that the kids don't have to take our major loans for college if they choose that route, and we are pretty much in a holding pattern. Our apartment is worth more than double what we paid for it, and we are paying more on principal than in interest every month already (to the tune of nearly $1000 a month in principal being paid off every month), plus we figure that as the US$ continues to depreciate against the Yuan we also are seeing our net worth go up considerably. Technically we could probably be FI3 now if we chose to sell the apartment and relocate somewhere with reasonable housing costs and good schools. We could totally live MMM's lifestyle, and if our apartment sold at current market rates we would have more than enough to do that. It is a bit tempting. But both DH and I like the work we do, and get compensated well for it. The kids are doing well in school and life. China wears us down sometimes, but we're not quite to the point where we're ready to leave yet. Maybe one of the things that makes me less anxious about striving to pay off the mortgage, etc. is that I know that in reality we are pretty much set and could declare ourselves FI3 whenever we make that choice to make a change. That is very freeing.

I do track both expenses and net worth pretty religiously. For me it is fun as well as useful.

lhamo

[fidgiegirl]

Do you think your family will live in the US again, lhamo? That IS freeing to know that if you had to sell, you would be set.

OT, but do your kids prefer English language or Chinese? I'm making an assumption that they have skills in both.

[try2bfrugal]

We are at FI3. We both worked for most of our adults lives and more or less have tried to save one income and live off the other. We never really thought much about retiring. It just seemed like something far off. Then we stumbled across web sites on subjects like tiny houses and sustainable living and it got us thinking. We live in a high consumption neighborhood of big SUVs and granite countertops so this really was a unique way of thinking and living for us.

But then we started asking ourselves, would we rather clean our own house or work 8 - 5, plus commute? Shop at the pack it yourself grocery store or work 8 - 5? Eat at Dennys 2-4-6-8 meals on Fridays instead of the more expensive restaurant or work 8 - 5?

We figured out there really wasn't anything we wanted more than free time. We took early retirement from our pensions, cut our budget drastically and have never really looked back.

[fidgiegirl]

Where do you live, T2BF?

[try2bfrugal]

I live in California.

[Spartana]

How about you? Are you still committed to your personal Big Picture? What is it? How will you get there? Let's talk Big here.


I've been FI3 and retired early for a long time now and one thing to remember is that even though you may gain your FI3 goals, you need to continue to maintain them thru out your life if you want to retain the freedoms (from debt, work, etc...) that being FI3 allows you to have. So continuing to use the skills and advice from books like YMOYL and places like this website and Mr. Money Moustach is really helpful even when FI3. While I don't track expenses anymore, i do continue to live within my retirement budget and not overspend. I still make those tough decsions and choices about my spending and the value of my money in terms of life-energy even though I no longer work. But I want to keep it that way and have no plans to go back to work ever (something I DON'T want to spend anymore of my life's energy on) so use those simple living skills everyday!