View Full Version : Do other people's child (age 10) drive them crazy?
I tried to change the title of this thread, because it looks as though I'm asking about other people's children rather than your own, but the forum will neither let me change the title nor delete the thread and start over. (And I usually regret it when I've just used the forum for venting. Oh well.)
I'm mostly looking for stories and commiseration. I can give myself advice all day long.
Our son drives us crazy. We love him dearly, but I think my blood pressure goes up whenever I'm around him.
He is very self-centered. I keep reminding myself that I am too, and I'm 46 not 10.
If you ask him to do anything at all, nine times out of ten, he sneers like he's 16 instead of 10, and he has a horribly disdainful tone to his backtalk. (Why in my day, I'd get switched for that, though of course, we don't switch people in this household).
He whistles very loudly and very shrilly much of the time he is home.
He is obsessed with purchasing things. His sister saved up her allowance and finally bought the American Girl doll that she has always wanted and I refused to buy for her because I think they're an expensive rip-off. As soon as it arrived, my son started pouring through the catalogue. He wants to buy several hundred dollars of accessories "for his sister," which is nice, but he also wants to use that as leverage to play with her. He also plans to buy a boy and girl doll set that look like him and his sister. Again, sweet, but why? Hasn't any of my frugality rubbed off on my children? The need to purchase something seems to make up about 75% of his conversation. I just don't get it, and I spend most of my time saying "no, we're not going to do that. We're not buying dry ice. We're not driving all the way to Albuquerque to go to the Natural History Museum so you can hang around the gift shop and announce what you want." He can spend literally hours in a gift shop. When he has money with him, he will pick things up, put them back, look at other things, go back around, ad infinitum. I always swear that I will never, ever go into a store with him. Then I forget and take him with me on a quick errand that ends up taking all afternoon because he's obsessed with buying things. He doesn't understand the guy code of run into the store, grab the item, pay and run out.
He is ALWAYS bored. At least he seems to look that way.
I'll put on some music and start dancing, or I'll be doing something else that makes me happy, and I'll try to get him involved and he just scowls. He's the big dark cloud in the family at times.
When I buy him something, instead of being grateful, it always seems to be a gateway to wanting something else. He needed new goggles for summer camp. (I, of course, made it through most of my childhood without goggles of any kind. For him, it's a necessity of life). He did say "thank you" which I guess is unusual these days, but as soon as we walked out of REI, he said, "now, all I need is a snorkel."
I know all of this seems terribly normal and pedestrian. It's par for the course for much of parenting, but he's been going on in the same vein for his entire childhood. Sometimes I just want to scream. All sorts of obscenities crowd my head when he opens his mouth to declare what he's going to buy, or what he needs, or how yucky the dinner I've been making is. I'm very, very careful to keep my frustrations to myself when there isn't anything constructive I can say. I let him know how pleased I am to be his father, and I really am, but I wish I could redirect him into more positive, (and frugal) activities.
Luckily, he also has an extremely sweet side, (that's him asleep in my arms in my member photo). He may be self-centered, but he can also be very empathic and demonstrates his caring for other people. His main difficulty, I think, is that he lives in a family of introverts and readers, and he is an extreme extrovert. I think we all have a tendency to flee from him. I work very hard to include him and play with him and spend time with him, even though it drains me, but it still can be difficult.
I'm afraid I can't help you. I was the introvert daughter of an extreme extrovert mother. Your son knows he's not what you wanted, believe me. With luck, he'll find kindred spirits later in life.
And as far as the shopping goes? Maybe getting "stuff" is a way to compensate. I don't know for sure, but I do know that I was constantly being told why I couldn't have what I wanted as a child, and I guarantee you I've got plenty of it now.
Yes, one's kids can most definitely drive one crazy! Based on your description, I bet he is also über smart. He sounds like a classic A type, and will take lots and lots of stimulation to keep him happy.
I too am a high extrovert, and am always looking towards the next thing. Plus, he's 10, and his brain is changing daily. He's his own person, with his own perceptions. Your frugality will not 'rub off' till he has a full understanding of the context within which frugality lives, and even then, he will choose his path.
The best one can do as a parent is set clear boundaries & expectations, and love whoever shows up. Unconditional loving goes a long way towards happy, well-adjusted kids who will find their own way. And they do grow up!
PS-Jane, I would like to respectfully disagree that her son knows he's not what his mother wanted. That may have been your experience; as someone who parented 2 introverts, it is not a given that the rejection you named happens. I am sorry it did for you.
rodeosweetheart
6-24-12, 2:47pm
I know you did not want advice, but as someone with three adult children, and some memories that I wish I could change, around things I wish I had done differently, I wonder if you might consider talking to a therapist about your own life, and what are reasonable expectations of your children and what are not. I can remember times of being irritated by some childish behavior, and now, looking back, I wish I could have been more easy-going, less anxious about their behaviors (which were all in the normal range), less prescriptive about what kind of behaviors I expected, and a lot happier. Because I miss those years tremendously, especially my whistler!
I really think you might have some tensions and irritations and/or depression going on, which can make you irritable, that are manifesting in your inability to roll with his behaviors. Can you try to see things from his point of view? I still suffer, at the age of 56, from my father's criticism of how I am, my basic personality, what I was not (the perfect son--heck, I'm female, for starters!) and it is making the end of life issues with him extremely, extremely painful. So if you can't bring yourself to look at what you are experiencing for your own sake, do it for his sake. Because feeling like you make someone's blood pressure rise by your very presence is how I have felt most of my life, and it is extremely painful. You love him, and you do not wish to perpetuate that kind of pain on him.
When I did feel some of the ways you described, it was a sign to me that I needed to see a therapist. What I discovered was that I needed to make radical changes in our lives, as I was not enjoying parenting at all, and my anxieties had gotten the best of me.
Anyway, food for thought, and maybe you and your wife could go together to discuss parenting? It breaks my heart to hear you say the family "flees from him"--think about how that must feel. You do not want to create a situation where your son is made into the family scapegoat, you know? Good for you for thinking through what is happening.
...
PS-Jane, I would like to respectfully disagree that her son knows he's not what his mother wanted. That may have been your experience; as someone who parented 2 introverts, it is not a given that the rejection you named happens. I am sorry it did for you.
Of course it's not a given; I bet there are lots of parents who are delighted with their children despite of or because of their differences. And maybe Paul's son is oblivious, but I doubt it. I was never overtly rejected or abused, but it was clear to me as I grew up that I wasn't the perky cheerleader type my mother would have preferred.
Miss Cellane
6-24-12, 3:01pm
Your son sounds a lot like my 11 year old niece. She's very extroverted, in a family of mainly introverts. She craves attention from everyone in her life. Her parents, my brother and SIL, have flat-out told me that no matter how much attention they give her, it's not enough. There are two other kids in the family, and both her parents make sure to give her hours of one-on-one time weekly, but it's just never, ever, enough.
The focus on buying things or getting things may be a part of this, as well. You spend money on things that are important to you. Getting a parent to spend money on you could be, to your son and to my niece, to be a sign that your parents really do care about you. Taking forever in the store? Well, if he's one-on-one with you, he might just being prolonging the time he has you to himself. You've heard of kids where "any attention is good attention?" Even if you get upset with his dilly-dallying, he's still getting your attention.
What my brother and SIL have done is to try and provide Niece with as many opportunities to be with other people as they can*. She's in swim club, she's in Girl Scouts, she takes dance lessons, she's on a soccer team, she goes to a couple of weeks of sleep away camp every summer. She stays with me for a week in the summer. She goes away with various other aunts and uncles over summer vacation and winter break. She spends weekends with one aunt who lives close to them. She gets more attention, and her parents get a break. When she was really little, they hired a "mother's helper" just to come and play with her, so that SIL could take care of the baby and cook and deal with the house.
I love her to pieces, but she is a physically, mentally and emotionally draining kid.
*Their situation is a bit complicated by the fact that they 1) live in a very rural area and 2) have a child with disabilities which prevents them from doing many activities outside the home as a family.
I agree on the unconditional love. No one's kids turn out to be exactly what they hope for. A child is his or her own person before he or she is your child. All you can do is give them lots of love and gentle guidance to find their own path. I'd love it if my son had gotten the artistic and gardening genes from me. But he didn't ;) and I'm okay with that. He is who he is, and I love him that way.
I'm sure your child does sense your frustration with him. Put yourself in his shoes and see the frustration he feels at being in a family where he doesn't really fit in. It's a very lonely feeling. I was that child, at 10. I acted out in many ways because my parents couldn't totally accept me for who I was. They liked that I was studious and made good grades. Beyond that - often not so much. They loved me but didn't really understand me. They certainly didn't want a child who thought for herself >8) or who wanted to dig up part of our suburban yard for a vegetable garden. Or who wanted to go to Ag school after high school instead of majoring in husband-hunting at some liberal arts college.
One thing that struck me in your post was when you said you would be doing something that made you happy, and you tried to involve him, he wouldn't join in. Of course you want to share your joy in an activity with him, but you may need to accept that what makes you happy may not make him happy. Finding out what makes him happy, and doing that with him, might help him not be so disdainful when you ask for his help around the house.
I know you didn't ask for advice. And I'm not trying to criticize you or come down on you for this - it's hard to strike just the right tone in a post. I know I certainly drove my parents crazy, particularly my mother (We were pretty much polar opposites.). She was probably exhausted by the time I left home. I do know that she openly showed preference for my sister, who is almost exactly like her in temperament. Which is very hurtful to a child, by the way. If prefer your daughter, because she is more like you in temperament, and your son senses that, part of his behavior (the disdainfulness, the always wanting to buy things or have things bought for him) could be a reaction to the hurt he feels from that.
My own kid was enough like me that I knew not to push him if he wasn't interested in things I thought he should be interested in. I could influence him, but pushing him would just make him go in the opposite direction. It sounds like your son might be somewhat the same.
Good luck to you and to your son. They really grow up so fast. In a few short years he'll be grown. As an introvert, I know how hard it can sometimes be to deal with an extrovert on a daily basis. But after he's grown and out of the house, you'll have the rest of your life to live your life as an introvert. It might be worth it to meet him more than halfway now.
awakenedsoul
6-24-12, 3:43pm
I know what you mean. I volunteered at the local elementary school's garden. I was shocked at the behavior of the kids and the frustration level of the teachers. There seemed to be so much anger and depression. I taught dance for over 30 years and it does seem like the young kids have the teenage attitude very early. Personally, I feel it's a lack of discipline at home. Growing up, I was always given chores and spent time helping my mom with housework and my two younger brothers. A lot of this built my confidence and self esteem. I could have cooked the Thanksgiving dinner myself by the time I was eleven. I see so many parents ignoring rudeness from children now. They don't name the behavior, and correct the rudeness at the time. There are no consequences. I always did this when I was teaching, and if I do it now, the kids seem shocked. There are no boundaries anymore. I also feel that c
hildren need heavy physical activity, every day. They need to play with friends, help out with the household, learn how to take turns, how to be quiet and listen, and to follow a routine. It really helps to develop their talents and gifts. They will look forward to that time and those lessons. I also think that computers are making children agitated and anxious. Technology can have a really negative effect on people. Most of the kids I see now have no social skills. Many of them seem depressed and dark to me. I don't mean to be judgemental, but I really am shocked at the difference compared to what I saw in my classes 25 years ago. Most of those kids came in with smiles, excitement, and an eagerness to please. I don't teach anymore. I couldn't deal with the poor parenting and disrespect for teachers. (I did have some wonderful students and teachers, but only about 35%.) Now I spend my time farming and caring for my home and animals. It also sounds like maybe he's trying to annoy you. Does he get punished for these behaviors? It's not as fun for them if there's a consequence. My nephew carries around a safe with him and 6 play money dollar bills. I think it gives him a feeling of security. He's only five. We're in a very materialistic society, and the children are absorbing that. I hope you can find ways to tire him out, develop his inner talents, and stop the backtalk. I know as a teacher I really got tired of that. When I was a kid, if we said anything disrespectful, my mother would wash our mouths out with soap. She did it once with me, and never had to again. Also, if I didn't do what she said in a store she would whisper, (in a very angry hiss,) "If you don't stop that right now I'm going to pull your pants down and spank your bare bottom in front of everyone, is that what you want?" And she would have, too. That always shut me up really quick. Parent don't threaten children anymore with something severe. She never had to do it, but I knew I better shape up. I think it's gone too far the other way now. The kids have a sense of power over the parents. I don't mean everyone. For example, I'm very impressed with the Amish. But I do notice that a lot of American kids are really mouthy these days.
ApatheticNoMore
6-24-12, 4:00pm
Re: the need to purchase things, I don't know if your son is this way, but I have known very up close and personal people who are what I would call "collectors". It's manifest in childhood (they need to buy not just a toy but the whole collection). It's seems almost inborn, it's like an innate drive or some perversion of it :) (sure media encourages materialism but this runs deeper, you could ban all t.v. and they'd still be collecting ...). I see potential though not easy sucessful life paths for those people. I think they are the people you'll see on Antiques Roadshow that know everything about a objects in their particular field. They found a way to use it well and make a living off it to boot.
I tend to see everything as genetic, and collecting seems to run in one side of my family (I did take after you, after all! ;)).
I see frugality as a tool for reaching goals and a means to get the most for one's money; penny pinching for its own sake certainly isn't my default setting. At any rate, there's a fine line between frugal and tight, IMO.
I do not have children. This is not my idea. But when I heard it I was very impressed.
I know someone who gives her children $1. allowance for every year of their ages per week. Beyond basic necessities of life, food, shelter, toiletries, a pre-determined budget for clothing per year, haircuts, medical expenses, vacations and paying for admission to family outings (as an example, if the family is going to a movie and child must come as part of the family the parents pay for admission,) ANYTHING the child wants must be paid from that allowance.
"We're going to the museum and you want to purchase something from the gift shop? Hope you brought your allowance because that's the way it's getting paid for and I don't make loans or give advances."
"You want to go with a friend to the movies? Don't come to me, pay for it with your allowance."
Kid wants extra clothing beyond what parent is providing in parent-determined budget each year? Kid pays for anything beyond out of kid's allowance. Kid is not allowed to take all of parent's clothing budget and blow it on a leather jacket. But may take his own money and blow it on a leather jacket.
Sounds crazy giving kids that ability to control their own finances, huh? Well, what better way to teach a kid how to manage their money when they're an adult than by making them make those decisions as a child? And the kids have made some pretty stupid mistakes. We all have. But when it's allowance money how bad can it really be and the mistakes teach the kid how to manage money.
This is how hard core this parent is. Once, when her child was like 7 he went into the bathroom and started playing with his toothbrush until he broke it in half then came crying into Mama. She's like "we pay for one toothbrush for you per 3 months. That toothbrush was 1 month old and you broke it. Go get me $2. from your piggy bank and I'll give you another toothbrush." She's like "I'd rather he learn now than later when it's a 7k credit card bill when he's a sophomore in college."
I wonder if you could channel that extrovert energy, as some have suggested. Something big, like acting, where he could have all eyes on him. Maybe there is a theatre group in your community. They are always looking for kids who will actually take it seriously and be on time, know their lines, etc..
And with the wanting to buy things, like for his sister. Sounds like a very active mind to me. Someone who is always thinking. Maybe gently channel that into something creative. For instance, if he talks about buying furniture for his sisters doll, suggest, and show him sites where people make furniture for that doll.
My husband is an extrovert and I am an introvert. We aren't really extremes of the types so we mesh very well. My son is a super extrovert and my daughter a super introvert. My daughter used to annoy my husband because he couldn't understand someone young who really preferred to stay home and read, or compute, but I was there to let him know when he was being unreasonable. My son, who found Tokyo just about the right size, joined every club, trip, activity, and crowd inducing jaunt he could. He is an actor now, the perfect job for him! But like your son, was always a nice, compassionate, fairly thoughtful guy. He just found our world too small for him and I think it made him antsy.
Reality is subjective. He may also feel like avoiding you because of his view of your life, which to him might be akin to living death. But he is 10, and can't very well go out on his own. Do you have any close relatives or friends who are extroverts? Perhaps talking to them will give you insight into your son. I know it can be hard, but if you can make the world as big as he needs it to be, it might help him and you in the long run.
The 10 years age is a pivotal age. At age 10, I knew what I wanted out of life, no idea what was involved but I knew where I was going.
He sounds to me as though he needs some extra stimulation like a basic digital camera to make collections of items that he cherishes. He can photo them. That way he owns them without a cent being spent. Next he can work up some skills with imaging...
He sounds exactly like my son. Seriously, we could send them out shopping together to get them out of our hair! My son has the same grouchy dark cloud thing going on, and automatically doesn't want to do anything we suggest doing together. He's 13 now, but when he was younger there were a lot of things we liked doing together, TV shows we all liked, etc., but now, if he senses that we like something, he instantly hates it. He used to like whatever I cooked, and now he says things like, "Eww, what's the smell, gross!" He says we're mean because we don't buy him the latest thing every two seconds. We didn't raise him to be rude and self-centered, it's not like we spoiled him until he got like this.
I don't have any brilliant suggestions. It's taken me awhile to be able to let his obnoxious comments roll off me. My husband and I have learned that his attitude is better if we don't lecture him to much; if we have some deep important thing to say about how he can improve his life, we just make the statement and walk away and let him think about it. Earlier today my son threw all his old Tinker Toys in the trash (we've told him a million times that we give used things to the thrift store). I told him he could have used those to make toys for the guinea pigs. He said that was a dumb idea and wouldn't work and didn't make sense and he didn't wanna. Then later he pulled the Tinker Toys out of the trash and spent a long time making some cool things in the guinea pig's house. I think he just has to learn one of these years that's he's responsible for his own happiness.
The 10 years age is a pivotal age. At age 10, I knew what I wanted out of life, no idea what was involved but I knew where I was going.
He sounds to me as though he needs some extra stimulation like a basic digital camera to make collections of items that he cherishes. He can photo them. That way he owns them without a cent being spent. Next he can work up some skills with imaging...
What a cool idea! A camera! Now there is a hobby one can take to whatever extreme an active mind will go.
Boy, this is why I try to remember to be careful about complaining on the forums. If you get together with your friends and say, "boy, I'd really like to kill my husband sometime," you'll get a sympathetic laugh. If you do it online, you're apt to find the police at your door.
I'm sure he feels wanted in this family. I let him know everyday. Sometimes I tell him his behavior can be frustrating, but I also let him know that I learn more about myself through that frustration, and it makes me a better person to be with him, and I enjoy that about our differences.
I'm more worried about his sister feeling unwanted. I spend so much time with him as a matter of course, that I have to make time to do things with my introverted daughter.
Interestingly, she's the one who gets involved in lots of extra-curricular activities: swim team, girl scouts, horse back riding, triathlons.
Zeb likes to stick right next to my side. I asked him if he wanted to go to a sleepaway camp this year, because his sister is spending two weeks away at Girl Scout camp, and he said, "no, I just want to be with you."
I wanted to chime in one more time. I'm working a full time schedule for the next three weeks, so I don't have time for long thoughtful replies.
Thanks to everyone who responded. He does have a digital camera. He's been through a couple of them. He doesn't really like the digital cameras. Now his Polaroid camera -- now there's some excitement! While it was working, he burned through about three packs of film a week, and he actually took many photos that I'm glad we have. He wants another one, but I think they stopped making polaroid film, and I'm not sure I want to know if they started back up. That was an expensive hobby.
He doesn't really cherish or collect anything. The most prized possessions he's had have been fountain pens. In his early childhood, he did some really amazing, intricate random line drawings with fountain pens. We have quite a collection. He's still quite an artist. He wants to take a calligraphy class, but I haven't found him one yet, and we're deep into summer camp (day camp for him) time. We're working on it, though probably not as fast as he would like.
He does go in and out of the boy scouts, but he doesn't seem to enjoy it. He doesn't really fit in with the other boys in some ways, though in others he's much more outgoing and gregarious than I ever was. I'm sure he picks up on my ambivalence to the boy scouts as an organization. I try to keep a lid on it, but it sometimes seems very patriotic -- God and Country -- and I can't stand the uniforms. It really creeps me out. I'm reminded of the Hitler Youth every time I'm with the troop. I need to find a good anarchist, Buddhist, pacifist Boy Scout Troop. (Not to mention I'm shocked at their policy against homosexuals in this day and age).
Good news is both of our children are going to be able to go to a charter school where a lot of our friends have their children. Neither he nor his sister fit well in the public elementary school they've been attending.
This morning when we were working on putting together dinner for the solar oven, he did say thank you to me for doing the grocery shopping and helping him cook. (I put him in charge of the week's menu since my normal 9:30 to 1:30 schedule is being supplanted by a 9:00 to 5:00 schedule for the next three weeks). He really is polite, grateful and kind much of the time. And, in spite of my original post, I am wise enough to listen for those things even when I'm feeling frustrated. He told a stranger "thank you" for something the other day, and the person said "there's something you don't hear very often."
He's also working part of the summer at his old Waldorf preschool. While I'm embarrassed that my children sort of freeload at the preschool on their off-time in the summer, the teacher loves having them there and pays them each $25 a week and tells me they work very hard taking care of the smaller children.
So I'm generally very, very happy. Frustrated sometimes, you bet. I didn't mean to come across as clinically depressed or mean and uncaring. (The hardest times are probably weekends, when I think "yay, I don't have to do anything!" and my son thinks "yay, what are we going to do this weekend!") But those are just differences we learn from, even when it isn't easy.
pcooley, I hope you don't think we were ganging up on you. Most of us have been there done that. You always come across as a caring, thoughtful father. We were just trying to help.:) Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I didn't feel ganged up on. I do realize that I sometimes vent my frustrations on the boards, and when any of us do so, it's not even telling one side of the story, it's telling one little slice of the story. But simple living, I think, catches us in more contradictions than we want to -- or at least I want -- to admit. It's like Amy Dacyczyn's article on people telling her she's depriving her children by buying them used shoes, (or whatever it was). I want to be present, caring and compassionate, but I want to promote independence. I want them to create their own adventures, but I don't want them to think we're poor or that I'll never buy them anything. It's never a perfectly smooth ride, but I believe that we are all together for a reason. My son is exactly who I'm supposed to have in my life right now, and he knows I feel that way -- but he also knows that I get frustrated at some behavior.
You are right. Glad you didn't misunderstand us. 10 year olds can be frustrating! I think it's just the nature of being 10. I do want to say you seem to have a very sharp kid there with a very active mind. Good for him! And good for you! You sound like a great father. Too often I think fathers get second thought in our culture, and it's refreshing to hear of a father who thinks deeply of these things and truly wants to guide and shape his kid into someone we would all like and appreciate.
Whenever I see 'active' kids, I'm often reminded of my mother who would just smile and nod when my sister's daughter would cause my sister to practically pull her hair out in frustration. What goes around comes around! ;)
awakenedsoul
6-25-12, 5:27pm
I loved hearing this. Sounds like you've tapped into his talents. The Waldorf School thing sounds great! The calligraphy sounds cool, too. Using his talents should really ground him. Funny what you said about the Boy Scouts. I was a drop out Brownie. I remember when I was a little girl asking my dad on the weekend, "But why? Why do you want to take A NAP?" "Because I've been working all week and I'm tired," he answered. I was thinking about all the fun stuff we could do and places we could go...
I thought this was an entertaining thread and that you got some thoughtful replies. Glad you came back and did the follow up post. (I didn't understand your first reaction.)
Gardenarian
6-25-12, 7:28pm
Do other people's child (age 10) drive them crazy?
Yes! Though 10 can be a fabulous age too. Have you read any stuff by Alfie Kohn on education and child-rearing? He's a really smart guy and I have learned a lot from his writings. Maybe they'll help - here's a link: Alfie Kohn (http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm)
I particularly like the article "Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!"
flowerseverywhere
6-25-12, 8:54pm
this was an interesting discussion. Of course there are things that kids do that drive their parents nuts. It's called life. It doesn't mean that you don't like them, or don't favor them, it means that you live according to certain standards and either the child is developing in a way that is a little different or is being a little defiant.
You can only control so much. Some kids will grow up to be gay, some rocket scientists or brain surgeons, some musicians, some atheists, some will be attracted to a partner outside their race or religion, some will be deeply religious. Some will not turn out too well despite being loved and brought up by outstanding parents. Every once in a while you see someone who went through hell (think Elisabeth Smart) who turns out to really be someone that you admire greatly.
All you can do is your best to give them a good example, try to give them good values, pay attention to them and help them reach their own personal best. Part of this is up to them and you can only guide them to the best of your ability.
My kids are grown and one thing I learned is there comes a point where you hold your breath when that door slams behind them and they get in a car, or go off to school, or go to a party that the values that you have tried to instill in them will bring them through safely.
Exactly. The chances of anyone producing a mini-me offspring--as much as they might want one--are slim. Paul's son sounds to me like he's off to a fine start, and I'm glad to hear he has a chance to make a little spending money of his own.
I have to think anyone who lives with other people is going to get annoyed with them at times; how could one not?
When I was raising my four sons, I did my best to teach them good morals by example when they were young, then trusted them to do their best to take over when they were mature enough to think for themselves. Sure, they made plenty of mistakes, but realized it was up to them to adjust their behaviour, not expect someone else to do it for them. I rarely had to step in to correct them, and seldom needed to correct them. It made for a peaceful, happy family with everyone pitching in to do their share. Now that they are adults, they are managing to enjoy their brothers too.
This worked out very well, because they are all good, kind, sincere and happy adults now. This, to me, gave them the satisfaction of realizing they were responsible for themselves and the way they treated others and that it was their own idea about how to be happy, considerate adults. Their marriages certainly are better for it too.
AngelinaBusby
8-5-15, 5:49am
No, my child does not drive me crazy with his work or habits. I had enrolled him to Long Island preschool, which is a educational center for kids between 6 weeks to 10 years. They teach every basic thing to the children and build confidence as well as make them creative and active. So it is a good idea for every parent to send their child to a good preschool (http://www.callingallkidsagain.com).
i haven't read all the posts but YES, my oldest does drive me crazy. i have done a dozen things to work with it but she basically gets on my nerves, i am sure i get on her nerves as well. i realized that her birthday is coming up and that means she has been smoking for 10 years, and i raised her without anyone around her smoking, healthy food, active, etc. she does tend to eat well, but just her manner of speaking and constant complaining drives me bonkers. i think i am that irritating person to my mother as well.
i also work with a lot of families that are very different, it is not uncommon to have a child who drives you nuts and then to also feel guilty about it. it is NOT about how well you raise them, what school they went to, what your values are, etc. in my opinion. it just kinda happens that a parent and chid irritate that crap out of each other, we can still appreciate that good stuff about each other as well. i am now seeing in my families the next generations, grandparents who are very helpful with grandchildren but then are still bugged by their kid in the middle.
Yes. That's all I got. I think he is exerting his independence and becoming his own person. He is 9.5. Lawdy help me. :)
freshstart
8-5-15, 11:25am
nope, 10-15 were fine, fun, occasional arguments with me. 15 up is driving me crazy! Moody 16 yo, speaks so horribly to me, makes fun of how I walk/fall and that I forget things all day long. She WAS not raised to treat anyone like that, especially her mom. I know she's angry that I got sick, I try to keep the peace or she will just stay at her dad's (he wants full custody because of illness so I am truly worried that serious discipline will drive Claire right to him} and I'll never see her. A year ago, just before this started, we were still extremely close, she chattered away all day, she liked doing fun stuff together. I get teen development and the need to pull away from parents but this has gone beyond that. We are in therapy, oh joy! So far we've accomplished not much, actually, not anything. The therapist is good sometimes, others I want shake her and say, "listen to me, she tells me to F off multiple times a day, mocks the way I walk, has called me the ret-word (which is not a word we have ever used in our house and my kids knew not to say it and never did). And your advice is to ignore it, she's heard you say this, so guess what doc? She does it even more!" I'd give anything to have my 10 yr olds back!
Feeling kind of like I raised Hitler some days, not funny. I have to tell myself to not feel guilty for this stage, I did raise them with a moral compass, Claire has just lost hers. But every mean word hurts double, first it makes me feel terrible, then I feel like it's "great job on this kid, well done, Mom!" Good kid in every other possible way so not all hope is lost
I think I would risk my kid going to live with her dad and discipline for those behaviors ... I hate it that she treats you that way.
rodeosweetheart
8-5-15, 1:51pm
nope, 10-15 were fine, fun, occasional arguments with me. 15 up is driving me crazy! Moody 16 yo, speaks so horribly to me, makes fun of how I walk/fall and that I forget things all day long. She WAS not raised to treat anyone like that, especially her mom. I know she's angry that I got sick, I try to keep the peace or she will just stay at her dad's (he wants full custody because of illness so I am truly worried that serious discipline will drive Claire right to him} and I'll never see her. A year ago, just before this started, we were still extremely close, she chattered away all day, she liked doing fun stuff together. I get teen development and the need to pull away from parents but this has gone beyond that. We are in therapy, oh joy! So far we've accomplished not much, actually, not anything. The therapist is good sometimes, others I want shake her and say, "listen to me, she tells me to F off multiple times a day, mocks the way I walk, has called me the ret-word (which is not a word we have ever used in our house and my kids knew not to say it and never did). And your advice is to ignore it, she's heard you say this, so guess what doc? She does it even more!" I'd give anything to have my 10 yr olds back!
Feeling kind of like I raised Hitler some days, not funny. I have to tell myself to not feel guilty for this stage, I did raise them with a moral compass, Claire has just lost hers. But every mean word hurts double, first it makes me feel terrible, then I feel like it's "great job on this kid, well done, Mom!" Good kid in every other possible way so not all hope is lost
Oh I am sorry you are going through this. I think I would switch therapists--it is not okay for her to abuse you this way, and she is learning that it is okay, and tolerated.
Would her dad's be a safe environment for her? A judge will take into consideration what she wants, but will not necessarily switch custody just because he is seeking it, or because she is mad at you for being sick.
But I would definitely get her a therapist, too, and I would get a new therapist for us that did not tolerate abuse. So not okay, imo.
We were supposed to have joint therapy and 2 days a week she would be here, that is what the judge ordered. She suggested Claire go to one session, I go to one, then we start going together. Well, this highly recommended therapist saw Claire once and hijacked the whole thing, told her a judge cannot make her have joint therapy or make her visit me (totally WRONG). So Claire LOVES her. She refuses to see me alone because this is Claire's therapy, not mine. I said then we aren't doing this, joint therapy was court ordered and according to my lawyer, the therapist had no right to tell Claire it would be individual and she does have to follow judge's orders on visitation. I was so mad, she set back any progress we were making. So I told my lawyer, let Claire go but I want someone else to be a true joint therapist. Lawyers, Claire's law guardian and the judge spoke. Law guardian said Claire feels connected to this therapist and that we all know Claire is not going to agree to see her plus a joint therapist, when school starts. This is a big year for her, she does so much stuff and now works. So judge asked me to go as many times as possible before next court date and we will address it then. I HATE this woman, I do not care if she is one of the highest rated therapists in town. But the judge has been very good to me all these years in family court, I will do as she asks. Call therapist a few weeks ago to set up several visits before court, at first she refused to schedule visits with me, citing Claire invites me in to sessions when she wants to. I kind of blew a gasket and told her that the Judge is ordering this, do I need to have my lawyer call you to make appts? So she gave me 2.
When we go, I am telling her that I will not accept Claire's cruel behavior, I am done. When it happens, I am calling her dad to come and take her. And this will not lead to Claire maturing and seeing how mean and disrespectful she is being, NOPE, she will permanently move in with Bob. I am starting to think that while this is 100% what I do not want, Claire is trying to tell me maybe by being so awful that she needs to stay there. This has been a lot for her to deal with, it's scary, I am so not myself, I can't take her places, my confusion and memory freak her out and she does not handle falls well. And she won't invite friends over because, while she hasn't totally said this, but pretty sure it's because I embarrass her.
she is safe with her dad, he's a good dad except he has always tried to alienate them from me. Hard and costly to prove in court, lawyer said don't pursue, let's see what happens. Well, that was 11 yrs ago and he's still doing it. Like telling the kids I just have depression, nothing is wrong with me, to stay sane, I try to let it roll off my back and model the proper behavior- do not bash the other parent. But there are days I want to force him to watch the MRI of my brain cd, he's a medical professional, he should be able to understand that ginormous mass of blood vessels should not be there. Let him try to get a BP reading on me. But he is not worth my time.
If Claire decides to leave, I will be heartbroken because if she had had any other reaction but hateful anger, we could've got through this together. But she will not give me a chance. I completely understand her view and I will never tell her that going to him kills me, but if she says in court that's what she wants, I have to accept, she couldn't be more clear that she hates it here. But I will not back down on 2 days a week with me and joint therapy.
I would just like her to get past this anger, being at her dad's does not magically make that go away. She is clearly suffering and lashing out. If she goes, at least I know i've done all I can to make her happy here again, that it's not my fault she left, I have to let her go so she can have a normal life at her dad's for now. I really wish she would let me explain her dad does not even know what I have, and it sure as shit ain't depression. I've brought it up, she shuts down, gets mad and goes in her room. Everyone in my family/friends all say she is scared, worried about me, but also her dying grandmother, and this is a pretty normal 16 yo response.
Please God, fix me enough that Claire won't get so scared and maybe, one day we will be close again. Sorry to babble on, it takes me 3 screens to say what should've been said in 3 sentences.
iris lilies
8-5-15, 6:18pm
Fresh start, so very sad about your situation.
I am glad that your ex can provide a good and nurturing environment for your daughter. She may really need to be there right now. Hang in there, she will not forget her mom.
rodeosweetheart
8-5-15, 8:19pm
Sending lots of healing thoughts to you and Claire. That closeness will come again some day--it is tough having teenagers, when they are spreading their wings, incredibly tough when you have health and custody issue in the mix.
Better days are coming, though it can be very hard to see that sometimes.
Feeling kind of like I raised Hitler some days, not funny. I have to tell myself to not feel guilty for this stage, I did raise them with a moral compass, Claire has just lost hers. But every mean word hurts double, first it makes me feel terrible, then I feel like it's "great job on this kid, well done, Mom!" Good kid in every other possible way so not all hope is lost
yes, i had things thrown at me, she ran away when i finally got a counselor, she told the counselor we would do things and then yell at me for making plans before we even got home. twice i left the house and stayed with a friend 1-3 nights to avoid the situation getting violent, i called their dad to pick up her younger brother. She ran away to dad's house with her brother once and i called ahead because she was drunk, dad is difficult but he stopped her from driving her brother and tried to send her home. Sigh,
at 21 several months ago she checked herself into a rehab program, it was a few months to go from saying she needed to and then actually getting there. She is really emotionally mature in many ways, she handled everything with insurance herself and follow up Dr, etc. She has been sober over 3 months now, we haven't really talked about the bad years, she has said she was a rotten kid during that time and my response is yes and i am spending more energy on how she is recovering rather than what happened from 13-20.
And i was the hippy granola, family meeting, non hierarchy, all the kids hang out at my house kinda mom.
at 21 several months ago she checked herself into a rehab program, it was a few months to go from saying she needed to and then actually getting there. She is really emotionally mature in many ways, she handled everything with insurance herself and follow up Dr, etc. She has been sober over 3 months now, we haven't really talked about the bad years, she has said she was a rotten kid during that time and my response is yes and i am spending more energy on how she is recovering rather than what happened from 13-20.
And i was the hippy granola, family meeting, non hierarchy, all the kids hang out at my house kinda mom.
Zoe, I'm sorry you went through all that, that had to be the hardest time ever. It speaks volumes that she handled the rehab stuff herself, she may have given you hell all those years but somewhere inside, she recalled what you taught her, at least as far as being independent and talking responsibility for a problem. 3 months sober, good for her, good for you. I hope you both can re-connect and make up for lost time.
Funny, I was sort of like this, "the hippy granola, family meeting, non hierarchy, all the kids hang out at my house kinda mom." But they wore me down, trying to physically attack each other during family meetings, me saying, then yelling, "sit down, use the talking stick", eventually that became only an exercise in extreme frustration. We had a hierarchy, though, but that clearly didn't pan out.
It makes me so sad, I tried so hard to make our home nothing like their dad's, I never spoke badly of him, I wanted them to have a good, solid relationship with him. And they do but they learned at his feet that they don't have to respect me, etc. So they learned they could treat me like a "joke", that they could walk all over me, etc, with the constant refrain that, "i'm moving to dad's!" My ex flat out refuses to co-parent, instead we are on opposite sides and only one of us can win. With the constant decade of taking me to court for crazy stuff, the judge has always sided with me, but I still had to pay for a lawyer. With a decade to freely rip me apart to the kids, I'm amazed they lasted so long with me, so I guess I should be grateful. But I will never get over hearing his horrible words coming out of their young mouths. I read up on how to parent with divorce, got therapy to work on it, I know what needs to happen. But if the other parent, flat out refuses to co-parent but is in the kids' lives 100%, how do you convince them "our", meaning "their" behavior is messing up the kids? You can foolishly spend over a decade trying to get him to come around, but why bother? They do not change when they have made it a game and at all costs they must "win". Sad, destructive, and no one wins
Maybe when they are adults, they will realize divorced parents should never act like he did and decide all on their own who I really am. Because this point in time is a cumulation of all the years my ex had to "program" them but I am no longer up to the fight of trying to show he is wrong. And honest to God, I know this is not a good situation for teens to live in and I have pretty much accepted this, the one thing I fought against and feared the most, is happening but I'm ok-ish, their emotional well being comes first. I just pray with time and maturity, they understand more and they give me a shot.
I just pray with time and maturity, they understand more and they give me a shot.
I think that'll happen. I think with maturity comes a point where they finally see their parents as people just trying to figure out what to do. They'll probably realize their father was acting like a spoiled child and you as the mature one. Sure is hard to wait and get to that point. I'm sorry it's been so hurtful.
i very much get it, but my kids all came to me when they realized that they were waking up dad to get to school on time or he was going raging angry over dishes. so they still have that influence but he is not really skilled at getting them won over.
what is is with these types of guys, why do they even like the hippy granola types? i wondered that for years, i was a punk girl in college, wore the same few outfits with combat boots, shaved portions of my head, i was super cool, and at some point i realized that he was spending an hour in the dressing room looking at his a** in jeans, worrying about the brand name of our dishwasher, always needing something better. when i got to middle age-ish and starting gaining some weight he reacted badly and i realized i was to some extent a trophy wife due to my looks. i just look at his life now, fancy house, designer dogs with birthday parties, a hairdresser for new wife that you need to book months in advance and wonder what ever did we have in common
on another note, let them go (so very very hard) and take care of yourself by being choosy about friends and sharing. there is a lot of mommy blame, misunderstanding of abuse even by therapists, and the last thing you need is that. i have my couple friends who have horrible ex's and we have agreed to only talk to each other because it is not safe to talk to everyone even though our other friends may mean well it is not good for you.
freshstart
8-6-15, 12:19pm
thanks, guys.
it amazes me when I very occasionally remember a good time with my ex, that we ended up here. IDK about him, but my intentions were true.
freshstart
8-6-15, 12:20pm
I think that'll happen. I think with maturity comes a point where they finally see their parents as people just trying to figure out what to do. They'll probably realize their father was acting like a spoiled child and you as the mature one. Sure is hard to wait and get to that point. I'm sorry it's been so hurtful.
thank you, Float On
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