View Full Version : Update: problematic coworker
You'll remember my thread about 6 weeks ago concerning J, the coworker who falls asleep at her desk, often refuses to help, etc.
She's dug herself into a good hole. Being caught "daydreaming" at her desk more than once, continual complaining about everything and anything workload related. The rest of us are working 10-12 hour days every day, while she was continuing to glide in at 8, full lunch hour, glide out at 5. Refusing to do anything more than what was already on her desk and not helping where she could with the rest of us. Mind you, we're swamped, yet helping each other if asked and can put other things aside for a few. (Not) endearing herself to the entire department by suddenly repeatedly saying she doesn't really have to work - her full paycheck goes into a savings account.
Exactly two weeks ago J did something to her back. Called in Tuesday morning two weeks ago. Was going to the doctor, but was going to be doing her emails from home and forwarding us things that needed to be printed or urgently attended to. She did this until Friday of that week. Then stopped without telling anyone. I would sometimes pop into her email (we all do this when others off, it's required) just to check. Last Monday no one got to that as it was a crazy day. Tuesday morning I looked into her email and there were 100+ unread messages going back to the Friday before. She had stopped checking her email from home without telling anyone. She wouldn't answer phone calls or texts from any of the girls. She would only deal with our manager. She's due back later this week. So on top of our already overflowing workload, we're dealing with her stuff. If she's hurt, she's hurt, but to stop checking emails without telling us we needed to pick up was the last straw. We were surprised when we heard today she was coming back in later this week. We really thought she might not be coming back.
The cherry on this sundae was that #2 (supervisor and did customs stuff) was fired a month ago for something involving a major customer or two (interpersonal related). The national customs compliance person based in another city has been spending every other week in my office, but she's not there for a lot of the smaller stuff, so I'm getting the questions since I've been doing all the studying.
Manager met with everyone last week. All our smaller customers (some maybe only have 1 shipment a month), that we don't do the customs stuff on, are going to be moved to J's desk. She has no choice. Since J refuses to learn the customs side, then she can do the multiple small customers that have a different company doing their customs clearances. This relieves the workloads of the rest of us a bit. The new girl is nearly up to speed on the massively complicated customer she's been working on and will be able to take on a few smaller brokerage customers. A new #2 is in the works. GM pulled me aside today and told me he had noticed and appreciated how hard I was working, as well as everyone else. He said J stuck out like a sore thumb with always leaving at 5 while the rest of us were there much later.
Studying at night after an 11-12 hour day hasn't been working well, so I've been getting up between 5 and 5:30 the last few days to get an hour of studying in before I go into the office. That's ironic given my loathing of early rising, but I WILL pass October's exam, so I'll do what I have to. At least I don't have to deal with anyone at that early hour!:devil:
It will be most interesting to see what happens when J comes back. Either she's going to refuse to do her revamped work load and be fired or she's going to do it with a lot of complaining. And I don't really know which it's going to be.
You sound almost happy about all this. Am I misreading that?
You sound almost happy about all this. Am I misreading that?
I didn't get the impression that she felt happy but was simply reporting an update.
GM pulled me aside today and told me he had noticed and appreciated how hard I was working, as well as everyone else. He said J stuck out like a sore thumb with always leaving at 5 while the rest of us were there much later.
Given everything else you've mentioned about this co-worker, it does not sound like she's going to be a candidate anytime soon for Employee of the Month. But I do want to comment on her keeping a 40-hour schedule when everyone else is not, and I will try not to jump your thread.
The substitution of adequate staffing with heavy overtime by all of the employees all of the time is one of the most insidious ripoffs foisted on the working class. Nevermind that real wages for most workers have not increased substantially in a quarter-century; now we're so scared to lose our jobs that we work 50 or 60 or more hours a week. With a 60-hour week, we effectively give ourselves a 33% pay cut. And while doing this, we neglect our families, our friends, our health, ...
I certainly understand busy seasons (e.g., January-April for tax accountants) or jobs like nursing or powerline technician when a particular task isn't over when the whistle blows. I also have no issue with rearranging some work days to accommodate special events (I did computer support for a while and upgrade time was 5-6 am Sunday when no one else was on the system and we had time to recoup from problems). But having four people do the work of six or seven by making overtime (or working from home) mandatory -- that's just taking advantage of people. And the more we let employers do it, the more power we give them to abuse us further.
It may not be popular for your coworker to always leave at 5. She apparently has some other performance or personality issues, as well. But her unwillingness to keep donating hours to "the man" ... I can't get on her case for that. If you all do that forever, when does management figure out you need help?
SteveinMN, that's what struck me--that I hoped all these people sacrificing their lives were at least raking in plenty of overtime pay. You're exactly right--with employment scarce, employees are becoming the equivalent of serfs. I still wonder if Tradd's co-worker is hoping (even subconsciously) that she'll be let go.
ApatheticNoMore
6-26-12, 3:55pm
Salaried means never having to get paid for overtime.
We're in peak shipping season, which goes from the spring into the fall. This is normal to be working so much during this time. However, we had one coworker out for a month when her husband died, and now J gone for more than two weeks, and folks on vacation one right after another. Kind of a perfect storm.
Yes, I agree with the other posters. As I read your post I was wondering if this is a 24/7 job and if so hopeful that you and your coworkers are being remunerated for all this extra effort, regardless of whether or not everyone's on board.
I also don't judge her for working a 40 hour a week job--unless she literally is sleeping on the job as you state.
Yes, as I've stated multiple times, J has been observed sleeping at her desk by everyone in the department.
And her refusal to help out at all when the newly-widowed coworker was out was a huge black mark against her. It's one thing to refuse to help, but that situation was crossing the line. It got to a point where I was so overloaded I just gave her some files and told her to do them.
It comes down to not just J sleeping at her desk, but she also "daydreams" starting off into space at her desk. So she's apparently got empty space in her day where she could fit more work, if she's just sitting around.
It has some of the earmarkings of a prescription pill problem to me ????
Good luck with handling it all.
Her days have to be numbered there.
Gardenarian
6-26-12, 5:59pm
The substitution of adequate staffing with heavy overtime by all of the employees all of the time is one of the most insidious ripoffs foisted on the working class. Nevermind that real wages for most workers have not increased substantially in a quarter-century; now we're so scared to lose our jobs that we work 50 or 60 or more hours a week. With a 60-hour week, we effectively give ourselves a 33% pay cut. And while doing this, we neglect our families, our friends, our health, ...
"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
-- John Steinbeck (attr.)
try2bfrugal
6-26-12, 6:10pm
I had a guy (a contractor) fall asleep at his desk and we couldn't wake him up. His coworkers came to me to ask what to do so I called 911. It turns out he was a drug user. If she is falling asleep at her desk she might just be lazy but there are also a whole host of possible medical reasons for her behavior, which may or may not be self induced. I also had a guy working for me once that didn't want to say anything about his condition and I was getting pressured to fire him. It turns out he had a brain tumor.
Manager told me last week that if J gives any pushback about the revised workload she will be fired. If it was a medical condition boss is aware of, I doubt she would be saying J is on the verge of getting fired.
On the plus side, our GM arranged for two temps to be brought in for a week to do our massive amount of filing and organize the bankers boxes of closed files. It was so nice to get the massive amount of closed files out of my drawers. :)
Update: I hadn't mentioned anything because we were all hoping it was just a short term thing, but now we're not so sure.
J was out for two weeks due to a sudden back problem the second half of June. She came back wearing a brace. She was back for about a week, then July 3 was the last she worked. Turns out she had only been seeing a chiro before, had to go to ER due leg numbness, and ER referred her to ortho. We don't doubt she's in pain, but we also don't doubt that if she can milk it, she will. Our manager has now admitted to me she regrets not firing J before all this happened. But we have a new person starting in the next week or two. I'm doing very little covering for J's accounts because I'm knee deep in my new duties as the customs compliance person.
iris lily
7-13-12, 12:00am
Oh joy, now it sounds as though your coworker will be participating in intermittent FMLA leave. That's the best! You won't know from day to day when she'll be there. This benefit is brought to you by Nanny G at the Federal government. God bless America.
Oh joy, now it sounds as though your coworker will be participating in intermittent FMLA leave. That's the best! You won't know from day to day when she'll be there. This benefit is brought to you by Nanny G at the Federal government. God bless America.
Yep. The company, since the merger, now offers short-term and long-term disability as part of our benefits. If you wanted that before, you had to buy it yourself. How that fits in with FMLA, I'm not sure.
At this point, all we know is that she was out this week with a note from doc. She goes to ortho mid-next week.
Oh, I just read my original post and forgot that I HAD mentioned J being out with the back trouble. In any case, we still don't know when/if she'll be back.
Does your manager actually disclose their plans about anyone else's employment status? I thought it was illegal to discuss employment matters with anyone other than the employee...
Does your manager actually disclose their plans about anyone else's employment status? I thought it was illegal to discuss employment matters with anyone other than the employee...
no, it's not illegal.
For many reasons it's not prudent, but hardly illegal.
FMLA and short-term sick leave or disability leave are not the same thing.
no, it's not illegal.
For many reasons it's not prudent, but hardly illegal.
Good to know, thanks! As a manager, I would never dream of disclosing anything of another employee. It would be very bad for building trust & good morale.
Good to know, thanks! As a manager, I would never dream of disclosing anything of another employee. It would be very bad for building trust & good morale.
I agree with you redfox...it is not professional, nor does it instill any confidence in any level of confidentiality!
You can be danged sure the manager and I are discussing employees. Since my promotion, I'm the closest thing to a #2 in the department. Anything Customs related is within my purview. J's continued absence has a direct effect on everyone since we're having to cover her workload, as well as our own. As a direct result of her being out, and someone else on vacation, I worked nearly 15 hours today. When I left the office, there were still two others from my department plugging away.
My discussions with manager involve working out who might be a good "lead" in the department, as well as the never-ending topic of workload distribution. I also have to do some training to bring a few folks up to speed on some Customs issues. If you think I gab it all over the department, you're badly mistaken.
If you think that a manager shouldn't discuss employees with one of the second-tier leaders in the department, well, I wonder where you've worked.
iris lily
7-14-12, 12:24am
Does your manager actually disclose their plans about anyone else's employment status? I thought it was illegal to discuss employment matters with anyone other than the employee...
Maybe you are thinking of HIPPA privacy law about health issues and there are some lockdowns on speech about that, but outside of direct health care providers I'm not sure who in the workplace (besides Human Resources) is expected to keep their trap shut. But I'm usually conservative with that stuff anyway.
I had one employee who was pregnant who didn't use that word, pregnant, and so-- neither did I. Clearly, she was preggers. But I used the phrase "So and So's health issue" for 6 months. It was obviously stupid but not wishing to be sued, I played it safe and appeared stupid. When So and So came back from FMLA leave for the undisclosed "health issue" she was a new mother. It was a miracle!
If you think that a manager shouldn't discuss employees with one of the second-tier leaders in the department, well, I wonder where you've worked.
Discussing workload assignments makes sense; talking about firing someone & sharing details of their medical history do not. Those conversations sound collusive to me. I know I am only hearing one voice in the complex story that's your workplace, so it's hard to get a complete picture. Being a systems thinker, it sounds to me like J is being scapegoated. Performance issues are workplace issues, and individuals who are underperforming are not acting in isolation.
Workplaces, like families, are systems, and when there is a perceived weak link, it's a systems problem. Firing the "problem" does nothing to solve it; it just seems like it's solved. Until the systems issues are surfaced & remedied, they will continue to bubble up in various guises. I say this from the stance of an ED with many years of supervising staff.
...
Workplaces, like families, are systems, and when there is a perceived weak link, it's a systems problem. Firing the "problem" does nothing to solve it; it just seems like it's solved. Until the systems issues are surfaced & remedied, they will continue to bubble up in various guises. I say this from the stance of an ED with many years of supervising staff.
Perhaps.
And sometimes people who refuse to work have to be fired.
Perhaps. And sometimes people who refuse to work have to be fired.
Yes, indeed. And, I have always considered the necessity of firing someone as indicative of a managerial & systemic failure. Nothing exists out of context.
awakenedsoul
7-14-12, 10:18pm
This is sort of a different perspective on this thread. I think it's sad that in today's workplace, a person who works eight hours and takes an hour lunch, (away from their desk,) is lazy. To me, that's a lot. This new policy of everyone having to work 12 hours, and being so pressured and stressed, just sounds so exhausting and abusive. I think its making people angry and resentful. (understandably.) I don't think Americans are going to be able to handle this workaholic lifestyle without breaking down. It's not healthy. There's no balance. No time for rest, pleasure, fun, relationships, hobbies, or exercise. No wonder so many people end up on medical leave...
This is sort of a different perspective on this thread. I think it's sad that in today's workplace, a person who works eight hours and takes an hour lunch, (away from their desk,) is lazy. To me, that's a lot. This new policy of everyone having to work 12 hours, and being so pressured and stressed, just sounds so exhausting and abusive. I think its making people angry and resentful. (understandably.) I don't think Americans are going to be able to handle this workaholic lifestyle without breaking down. It's not healthy. There's no balance. No time for rest, pleasure, fun, relationships, hobbies, or exercise. No wonder so many people end up on medical leave...
There's ample valid reason to consider J as being lazy -
Have you seen the other posts where the employee in question has been repeatedly, by different people, caught sleeping on the job, as well as just sitting there doing nothing for periods of time? She flat out refuses to do additional work when it's given to her by manager (although she's not argued with me, probably because she knows I'd not put up with it). The last straw amongst the people in the department was when this employee in question refused to help cover the desk of a newly widowed coworker who was out for a month after her husband died.
The 12 hour days are not enforced. We simply do what needs to be done. The problem is that J clearly has available time in her day and still refuses to help out. She consistently has the lowest file count of the department. She was being kept on because the work she did was good, never any errors, etc.
She also doesn't help her case, when she goes around telling people that she doesn't have to work, her entire paycheck going into savings, as she has apparently done. If she doesn't need her job, then quit. I don't know what the legalities are around firing someone on medical leave. Goodness knows just from the sleeping itself and refusal of work they've probably got enough to fire her.
Yes, indeed. And, I have always considered the necessity of firing someone as indicative of a managerial & systemic failure. Nothing exists out of context.
You've said this before. Sounds nothing more like blaming everything and everyone but the employee who refuses to do the job as required. I suppose in some workplaces that might be the case, but not in the cases I've seen in recent years.
How can you consider it a "managerial and systemic failure" when an employee has been given multiple chances, been worked with/given different tools to improve stretching over a year, and simply doesn't do it?
Or if someone has attendance issues (repeatedly very late and/or takes a sick day without calling in) - how is someone's inability to get to work on time a "managerial and systemic failure"?
iris lily
7-14-12, 11:52pm
You've said this before. Sounds nothing more like blaming everything and everyone but the employee who refuses to do the job as required. I suppose in some workplaces that might be the case, but not in the cases I've seen in recent years.
How can you consider it a "managerial and systemic failure" when an employee has been given multiple chances, been worked with/given different tools to improve stretching over a year, and simply doesn't do it?
Or if someone has attendance issues (repeatedly very late and/or takes a sick day without calling in) - how is someone's inability to get to work on time a "managerial and systemic failure"?
The managerial systemic failure is that it's gone on this long. And in a way, that speaks to redfox's point.
The managerial systemic failure is that it's gone on this long. And in a way, that speaks to redfox's point.
Well, I guess I will give you that. Woman manager. Going a bit overboard on the "compassionate" crap. And I've told her this. Frankly, her handling of this situation is my only beef with her.
Endless 12-hour days sounds like slavery to me. I hope the pay more than makes up for having your life stolen away.
You've said this before. Sounds nothing more like blaming everything and everyone but the employee who refuses to do the job as required. I suppose in some workplaces that might be the case, but not in the cases I've seen in recent years.
How can you consider it a "managerial and systemic failure" when an employee has been given multiple chances, been worked with/given different tools to improve stretching over a year, and simply doesn't do it?
Or if someone has attendance issues (repeatedly very late and/or takes a sick day without calling in) - how is someone's inability to get to work on time a "managerial and systemic failure"?
I find blame & anger in all relationships, and in the workplace especially, as indicators of a deeper problem. The failure of having to fire an employee to me is a failure of setting and sticking with clear boundaries. In a workplace, as in all human relationships, roles & responsibilities need to be constantly clarified and adapted, and it's the manager's responsibility to do that with staff. If there is confusion, it's the manager's responsibility to clear that up.
Optimally, of course, everyone self-manages well. In real life, many people don't know how to do that, so there is both an opportunity and responsibility for the manager to communicate that clearly and without anger & blame. Often over and over! And, ultimately, sometimes firing is the last step in this clarifying of boundaries. I concur with Iris Lily that the situation in your workplace may have gone on too long.
In hearing just your take on the workplace issues you describe, it sounds to me as if there are poor boundaries, and confusion always results when that's the case. Your castigating the "woman" manager is sad, because gender has nothing to do with poor management; that is fully an equal opportunity experience. If your manager has not been clear with your colleague about her responsibilities in the workplace, that's not compassion, that's bad management and boundaries. It's not at all compassionate to not hold people accountable for their actions in a kind and dispassionate way, and it's compassionate to expect individuals to be grown-ups, without anger when they disappoint, but continuing to set the limits nonetheless.
The level of anger and castigating you express towards your co-worker is intense, and I wonder if you've been feeling like you're having to carry the load? Do you wish the manager would have set clear limits much earlier on? I wonder if your anger is also for the manager, who, it sounds like, has not had good boundaries - both with your colleague and with you, by expressing the sentiments of wanting to fire her?
Wokplaces are complicated, and my comments are in reflection of yours, which is of course an incomplete picture. I've been taken by the level of personal anger & contempt you've expressed for your colleague, and wonder what's behind it?
Most work groups I've been part of had at least one worker who didn't carry their share of the load. Not infrequently, they were promoted. Human nature meets the law of averages.
Wait, did I just read that right? You're working 12 hr days for the same pay as an 8 hr day?
ApatheticNoMore
7-15-12, 2:39pm
Wait, did I just read that right? You're working 12 hr days for the same pay as an 8 hr day?
Oh the joys of salaried labor (all perfectly legal if an employee is salaried = exempt classification). Really in addition to having an incompetent coworker, it really doesn't sound like a good place to work.
It's actually a pretty good place to work. Best group of coworkers - aside from J - I've ever worked with. Our new GM (previous one got bumped up to corporate) has an insanely good sense of humor, treats us well, and is fair. My manager - aside from the issue with J - is fabulous. We're not micromanaged like I was at last place. We're given the freedom to do our work. It's interesting, never boring stuff, and I quite enjoy it. Things were bumpy for a while there with several different CEOs (corporate is in my office), but it's been smoothed out the last 18 months or so.
And as for Redfox, who was questioning my attitude towards J - it's all very simple. I'm a hard worker. Always have been. I have no patience with people who want to slack off. Period. If you don't want to work, fine, but leave so we can actually get someone in the position who WILL carry their load.
Someone else commented it was sad that J was considered to be lazy for only working 8 hours, taking lunch away from her desk, etc. J didn't work her 8 hours. She was there, but did the pictures of the grandkids thing, galavanting about the department showing them to people, nodding off at her desk, sitting there doing nothing in between bits of work.
Manager most definitely let the thing with J go on too long. The entire department has expressed this to her. If J had been fired weeks ago as she should have been, we could have gotten someone in who DID know how to do what J refused to learn (customs clearance side) and the entire department's workload could have been balanced out so that no one was staying later than maybe 90 minutes several days a week, which is standard for peak season (late spring through the fall). I WAS carrying a large part of J's workload, until I just said "screw it" and didn't. I'm an overly responsible sort and don't generally say "just screw it." But I did. I'd had enough. I cover one small customer of J's and that's it. People who previously weren't back-up for her on certain accounts now are. I've got enough on my plate with my promotion.
Now we're stuck with her out due to back issues (non-work related, something she did while at home), not knowing when she's going to be in. Since the company offers short-term disability benefits, I'm assuming she's on that and FMLA isn't involved - not yet, anyway. Our state is an at-will employment state, and if FMLA isn't involved, it doesn't seem to be illegal to fire someone on short-term disability. That's our best bet right now - that J is fired so the uncertainty over if she'll be working any given week is gone, and we can get someone in who will actually work.
IF J comes back, my policy towards her is this: if I see her sleeping, I tap her on the shoulder to wake her up (which I had already done). If I see she's sitting there doing nothing, I'll ask her if she's caught up with her work. If she says yes or waffles, I'll give her a file or two that's not more complicated than she can handle. And no, I'm not sitting there watching her. But she's across the narrow aisle from me, and I'm often back and forth to copier and printer, which is when I see her.
ETA: and as for details about what we know about J's medical issues, J has told us herself. She volunteered the info. And as for the manager telling us, "J's off for another week, she's getting a second opinion" - there's nothing sensitive in that.
awakenedsoul
7-15-12, 10:45pm
When I first started my business, I took a side job at a farm selling produce. It covered my bills, and I got free vegetables. I worked there from 9:00-2:00 every day, came home, ate, rested, then went in to the studio and taught. I was shocked at how people slacked at this job. Cell phones were not allowed, but everyone but me brought theirs anyway. They spent their time sharing photos on their phones, and texting. I sold three times the amount of produce the other women working there did. I would start and finish with a customer, and they would answer a phone call, drop the customer, get distracted, etc...I couldn't believe the lack of focus. Sometimes I would have a line of people, and the other two ladies would have no one. The customers would say, "I want her to wait on me." It was really eye opening. I put time into my grooming, ate a good breakfast, packed a nice lunch, and enjoyed the work. I'd always ask the customers what they were cooking with their vegetables. The other employees didn't really eat. They'd skip breakfast, play with their phones, and didn't bring a lunch. I just couldn't understand how they could function. If we were slow, I would clean the baskets, sweep the floor, pick up trash in the parking lot, etc...They just didn't have that mentality. They would do crafts.
I eventually left the job, because the owner seemed to resent how much the customers liked me. Plus, I realized I could grow all the same stuff at my home farm, organically. It was all very weird. I was just blown away by how distracted some people there were.
Awakened, that's interesting to hear your perception from the other side of the counter. I see this ALL THE TIME at the grocery and convenience stores. DH used to have a super early schedule, and he'd stop into a convenience store near his work a little after midnight. This store was always full of, well, unusual folks - street people, pimps and hookers, nutters, whathaveyou. One day this crazy woman came in and started talking loudly, waving her arms, frantic to get directions to someplace. She either had an accent or was high or something - could barely make herself comprehensible. There were three counter people, but they all stopped and froze to attend to this person. Meanwhile DH is standing there with his bottle of Coke Zero, guaranteed easy transaction. And he's fully dressed, doesn't smell bad, and he's not screaming. But they totally ignore him. (Maybe that's why?) Finally he got the attention of one of them, but he had to beg to be checked out.
I've had the experience in hipster bookstores of the young staffers who never say hello or make eye contact when they're checking you out. They're just determined to continue their conversations with each other while taking your money. DH gets so incensed about these people. He always says, "Thanks for the wordless transaction!"
I do that thing you mention where I sometimes request the helper I like. But I'm not always able to do that, unfortunately (like at the post office).
I wonder how much an efficient employee could improve the situation at a job like the one you describe at the farm. I think it's nearly impossible for people who are lateral to each other to change the culture of a company - it really has to be top-down, from management. But managers so often have their heads in the sand.
awakenedsoul
7-16-12, 2:17pm
kitten,
I can relate. I think it's also generational. I only have a cell phone for emergencies. My parents are both very disciplined and organized. It rubbed off on me. I think it would really help kids to get back to the basics and learn how to do things by hand. Computers do everything for them now. In my knitting class, my teacher gets frustrated because the students don't listen to her, pay attention to detail, remember to bring their patterns and supplies, or follow the instructions. They just sort of do their own thing, and then their projects come out all wonky. We used to be rewarded for exactness, neatness, organization, etc...Everything has gotten so loose. It just seems like many people refuse to "play by the rules" now. The owner at that farm referred to me as a "rule follower." It seemed like I was the only one. She was also very efficient, conscientious, fast, and focused. They had a lot of problems with consistency there, too. When I would ask, "Where does this go?" so I could put something away, the answer was usually, "Oh anywhere." I really need structure and order in order to feel comfortable in a work environment.
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